More turnouts appeared due to extending the deadline an extra week. Countermagic is starting to make a presence in the metagame.
RESULTS
NEO 5CB #3
Format: Normal
1 - Draco9_1_1 Mutavault, Rakdos Carnarium, Amulet of Vigor, Necrogen Mists, Trinisphere Trinisphere was able to shut down low casting-cost cards while Necrogen Mists punished slow decks that took awhile to play out their threats. Amulet of Vigor works well with the Ravnica Karoo lands.
X 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-0
1|X 6 s 6 s 6 6 6 1 s = 37
2|0 X 0 0 2 6 0 0 2 1 = 11
3|s 6 X 0 6 6 0 6 6 2 = 34
4|0 6 6 X 6 6 0 s 6 6 = 38
5|s 2 0 0 X 6 0 s 0 s = 14
6|0 0 0 0 0 X 0 4 2 6 = 12
7|0 6 6 6 6 6 X 6 0 2 = 38
8|0 6 0 s s 1 0 X 6 6 = 23
9|4 2 0 0 6 2 6 0 X 2 = 22
0|s 4 2 0 s 0 2 0 2 X = 14
1. Hinotama (4) - 38
=. FuriouslySleepingIdea (7) - 38
3. Draco9_1_1 (1) - 37
4. ~V~ (3) - 34
5. MrCowFart (8) - 23
6. Feyd_Ruin (9) - 22
7. Taodd (0) - 14
=. tomsloger (5) - 14
9. Promatim (6) - 12
0. WhammWhamme (2) - 11
RULES
0. Overview
"NEO 5CB" is a weekly Magic tournament, run entirely within this forum. To compete, players submit five (5) card decks which are played against each other. Scoring assumes optimal play, without randomness or concealed information.
1. Game Rules
1.1. Except for the changes described in these rules, games follow the rules of Magic.
1.2. Players' decks contain exactly five (5) cards, which begin the game in hand. Players do not mulligan or sideboard.
1.3. Players' libraries begin the game empty. A player does not lose the game as a result of being unable to draw a card.
1.4. A random effect produces the result that least benefits the owner of the source of the effect.
1.5. Each player plays two games (one match) against each other player.
1.5a. Each player is the starting player once per match.
1.5b. If no player can win, the game is a draw.
1.5c. Games are played with perfect information.
1.5d. Games are played optimally; players attempt to win, draw, or extend the game – in that order.
2. Tournament Rules
2.1. Players submit their decks to the "NEO 5CB" moderator.
2.1a. A player may submit multiple decks, but only the most recent deck is counted.
2.1b. An illegal deck is not counted. The removal of an illegal deck does not affect deck distribution.
2.1c. The moderator determines the result of each match. Players may challenge results, but not after the results of the first round belonging to a new month have been posted.
2.2. Decks are subject to some restrictions.
2.2a. A player may not submit a deck that can do the following against any deck:
Win the game before an opponent's second turn.
Force a card of your choice in an opponent's hand to change zones before an opponent's second turn.
Force more than one card in an opponent's hand to change zones before an opponent's second turn.
2.2b. A player may not submit a deck that can't win both games of a match against at least one deck satisfying 2.2a, 2.2c, & 2.2d.
2.2c. A deck may include any number of any card legal in the following sets and/or card blocks:
Mirrodin Block
Kamigawa Block
Ravnica Block
Time Spiral Block
Lorwyn/Shadowmoor Block
Alara Block
Zendikar Block
Scars Block
2.3a. Players are ranked – first to last – in order of decreasing number of points.
2.3b. For each match, a player earns 3 points per game win and 1 point per drawn game. However, a player earns only 2 points for a split match (one win, one loss).
2.3c. A table of match results is posted each round. Its rows represent players and its columns represent opponents. Match results reflect the combined result of both games played in a match; 3 is a game win, 1 a drawn game, and 0 a game loss. The lowercase letter "s" may be used instead of 3 to denote a split match. A player's points are listed at the end of his or her row.
Can't believe I'm one turn too slow vs Hinotama when I'm on the play lol.
I maybe should have used a storage counter mana base, not sure. It'd help vs ~V~ and Promatim in at least 1 of our 2 games in both matches. I didn't bother looking at where it would have possibly hurt me.
Vs FuriouslySleepingIdea if I'm on the play I just mana leak his rotting rats, he can't do anything relevant after that because he can't unearth rats without playing the isle first, which means he never gets to even damage me that game. We end up drawing as he can't play rats and I can't cast deft duelist without giving him the opening to play rats. Also if I just play duelist then he plays rats I discard path and keep leak for progenitus, however I can never attack because he'll block then unearth rats to get rid of my mana leak then play progenitus. Any turn he attacks me I don't block and attack back, I win that race if he tries it.
With him on the play he has to play rats to do anything, I just discard deft duelist, path the rats that turn, and for the rest of the game have mana leak ready for progenitus.
I'm pretty sure MrCowFart beats Hinotama on the play, as Hinotama can't pierce and pay 2 on MrCowFart's 4th turn to get past his spell pierce, which means he also can't path and pay 2 for the frost titan ability and MrCowFart's frost titan locks down Hinotama's calciform pools for the rest of the game.
How do I beat tomsloger when he's on the play? I don't see it. Trying to figure out this match is too much work for me to bother right now lol.
Taodd - Since I got your match pretty late, I ended up in a rush and I made a bunch of errors. Sorry! I'll go through the matchups again and make some adjustments. Thanks for the corrections!
If he casts hypergenesis, I put in my bridge and shard and go for the win. But I try casting the shard, it's pierced. So we both hold our hands and tie.
Feyd_Ruin - Thanks for the catch. I was so caught up about other decks disrupting the casting of Hypergenesis or Lotus Bloom. I'll go make corrections.
I beat draco 2-0. Trinisphere doesn't affect suspend cards (you cast them without paying their mana costs) so it doesn't stop my lotus blooms. If he plays necrogen first i counter it. If he plays trinisphere first I let it resolve then I can return my land to my hand to discard for necrogen and hold off the turns necessary to resolve titan for the win.
I beat Whamm 2-0 I save my counter for his lotus which means the earliest he can drop his gargoyle is turn 6. Even with him clockspinning my lotus i will be able to drop my titan turn 5 and will promptly permatap his charge land.
From the Magic Comprehensive Rules. Relevant information in bold.
601.2e The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can't be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
Trinisphere's ability affects the total cost of the spell. It is applied *after* any other cost increasers or cost reducers are applied: First apply any cost increases. Next apply any cost reducers. Finally look at the amount of mana you have to pay. If it's less than three mana, you'll pay three mana.
When you suspend the card, Trinisphere doesn't affect the suspend cost. When you remove the last time counter to cast the card, instead of casting the card without paying its mana cost, Trinisphere makes the spell cost or it just stays exiled forever.
whoah, just realized i take Hinotama to 1 on the play:
t1: island, cursecatcher
h1: fountain, tapped
t2: island, cursecatcher #2, attack 20-19
h2: pools, storage counter 1
t3: commander, attack 20-17
h3: path commander, still 1 counter
t4-9: attack for 2 six times 20-5
h4-8: storage counters 2 through 6
h9: cast titan, tapping a cursecatcher
t10: attack 20-4
h10: attack, continue locking down 1 catcher 14-4
t11: 14-3
8-3
8-2
2-2
2-1
0-1
You have me beating FuriouslySleepingIdea 1 game and drawing the other. According to my suggestion of what happens we double draw. Did I miss something?
I'd say if you have atleast 6 decks just go for it. The people who miss can just submit the decks for next week. This encourages people to keep on top of things and not expect extensions each week and frequent updates keep the interest up.
I got distracted by all sorts of stuff and pretty much forgot about this forum for a short while. I missed the deadline for 5CB #157 as well. I'll try to make sure I get in a list in time this time.
I have a thought about one of the rules (I promise it isn't about banning cards, but opening up more options). The new rule is more akin to how it treats random effects. How about this?
Remove the part of 2.2a that says:
Force a card of your choice in an opponent's hand to change zones before an opponent's second turn.
Put a new rule somewhere that says:
If an effect would force a card of your choice in an opponent's hand to change zones, the opponent chooses the card instead.
Duress would still have the opponent discard a nonland, noncreature card, but it would be the opponent's choice. For example:
Deck A Deck B
Swamp Mountain
Swamp Swamp
Swamp Sootstoke Kindler
Duress Terminate
Barony Vampire Shatter
Deck A casts Duress first turn, deck B can choose to discard Shatter as that would create a better play for deck B while still satisfying the conditions of Duress. This will deal with the problematic targeted discard (Thoughtseize) while maintaining the conditional targeted discard that brings a healthy metagame.
RESULTS
NEO 5CB #3
Format: Normal
1 - Draco9_1_1
Mutavault, Rakdos Carnarium, Amulet of Vigor, Necrogen Mists, Trinisphere
Trinisphere was able to shut down low casting-cost cards while Necrogen Mists punished slow decks that took awhile to play out their threats. Amulet of Vigor works well with the Ravnica Karoo lands.
2 - WhammWhamme
Lotus Bloom, Clockspinning, Celestial Colonnade, Calciform Pools, Voidstone Gargoyle
I like your use of Clockspinning to accelerate your Lotus Bloom a turn. Relying on Voidstone Gargoyle to act as both your threat and your disruption was probably not the best choice.
3 - ~V~
Copperline Gorge, Godless Shrine, Putrid Leech, Qasali Pridemage, Journey to Nowhere
Qasali Pridemage is amazing vs Lotus Bloom by destroying the Bloom before they can crack it open during their main phase.
4 - Hinotama
Calciform Pools, Frost Titan, Hallowed Fountain, Spell Pierce, Path to Exile
Spell Pierce was able to take care of noncreature threats while Path to Exile handled the creatures. Having a charge-land mana base worked out well for you.
5 - tomsloger
Island, Island, Coralhelm Commander, Cursecatcher, Cursecatcher
Having a second Cursecatcher could be substituted for some removal to give you additional strength against other decks.
6 - Promatim
Hypergenesis, Lotus Bloom, Island, Spell Pierce, Progenitus
Having a suspend card fuel Hypergenesis made the deck pretty slow. I'm sure there is a quicker way to cast it.
7 - FuriouslySleepingIdea
Jwar Isle Refuge, Shelldock Isle, Rotting Rats, Progenitus, Simian Spirit Guide
Spell Pierce couldn't stop your card engine. Progenitus wrecked a lot of decks.
8 - MrCowFart
Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Frost Titan, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Spell Pierce
Even though your deck looks solid, Lotus Bloom was easily disruptable and there were ways of getting around Spell Pierce.
9 - Feyd_Ruin
Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Leyline of Sanctity, Ensnaring Bridge, Granite Shard
Ensnaring Bridge is a good way to stop creature threats if they don't have an answer to it. One way you could recover from your artifacts hitting your graveyard is Academy Ruins + Izzet Boilerworks or a similar setup. Leyline of Sanctity didn't make much of an impact here.
0 - Taodd
Path to Exile, Mana Leak, Deft Duelist, Seachrome Coast, Seachrome Coast
If you try to cast your threat, you would be tapped out for the turn and be unable to counterspell. Your opponents can exploit this flaw.
0. Overview
"NEO 5CB" is a weekly Magic tournament, run entirely within this forum. To compete, players submit five (5) card decks which are played against each other. Scoring assumes optimal play, without randomness or concealed information.
1. Game Rules
1.1. Except for the changes described in these rules, games follow the rules of Magic.
1.2. Players' decks contain exactly five (5) cards, which begin the game in hand. Players do not mulligan or sideboard.
1.3. Players' libraries begin the game empty. A player does not lose the game as a result of being unable to draw a card.
1.4. A random effect produces the result that least benefits the owner of the source of the effect.
1.5. Each player plays two games (one match) against each other player. 2. Tournament Rules
2.1. Players submit their decks to the "NEO 5CB" moderator. 2.2. Decks are subject to some restrictions. 2.3. Points determine tournament standings.
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is unbanned.
Path to Exile and Shelldock Isle are banned.
NEO 5CB #4
Format: Normal
Deck Submission Deadline:
Saturday, November 06, 3:00 AM GMT-5 (EST).Saturday, November 13, 3:00 AM GMT-5 (EST).
Submit your deck to Draco9_1_1.
I maybe should have used a storage counter mana base, not sure. It'd help vs ~V~ and Promatim in at least 1 of our 2 games in both matches. I didn't bother looking at where it would have possibly hurt me.
Vs FuriouslySleepingIdea if I'm on the play I just mana leak his rotting rats, he can't do anything relevant after that because he can't unearth rats without playing the isle first, which means he never gets to even damage me that game. We end up drawing as he can't play rats and I can't cast deft duelist without giving him the opening to play rats. Also if I just play duelist then he plays rats I discard path and keep leak for progenitus, however I can never attack because he'll block then unearth rats to get rid of my mana leak then play progenitus. Any turn he attacks me I don't block and attack back, I win that race if he tries it.
With him on the play he has to play rats to do anything, I just discard deft duelist, path the rats that turn, and for the rest of the game have mana leak ready for progenitus.
I'm pretty sure MrCowFart beats Hinotama on the play, as Hinotama can't pierce and pay 2 on MrCowFart's 4th turn to get past his spell pierce, which means he also can't path and pay 2 for the frost titan ability and MrCowFart's frost titan locks down Hinotama's calciform pools for the rest of the game.
How do I beat tomsloger when he's on the play? I don't see it. Trying to figure out this match is too much work for me to bother right now lol.
Hypergenesis, Lotus Bloom, Island, Spell Pierce, Progenitus
vs
9 - Feyd_Ruin
Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Leyline of Sanctity, Ensnaring Bridge, Granite Shard
Listed: 6-0
Suggested: 2-2
If he casts hypergenesis, I put in my bridge and shard and go for the win. But I try casting the shard, it's pierced. So we both hold our hands and tie.
No longer staff here.
I beat Whamm 2-0 I save my counter for his lotus which means the earliest he can drop his gargoyle is turn 6. Even with him clockspinning my lotus i will be able to drop my titan turn 5 and will promptly permatap his charge land.
601.2e The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can't be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
Trinisphere's ability affects the total cost of the spell. It is applied *after* any other cost increasers or cost reducers are applied: First apply any cost increases. Next apply any cost reducers. Finally look at the amount of mana you have to pay. If it's less than three mana, you'll pay three mana.
t1: island, cursecatcher
h1: fountain, tapped
t2: island, cursecatcher #2, attack 20-19
h2: pools, storage counter 1
t3: commander, attack 20-17
h3: path commander, still 1 counter
t4-9: attack for 2 six times 20-5
h4-8: storage counters 2 through 6
h9: cast titan, tapping a cursecatcher
t10: attack 20-4
h10: attack, continue locking down 1 catcher 14-4
t11: 14-3
8-3
8-2
2-2
2-1
0-1
Usually people pop up with decklists early in the week. Hmmm...
im in, right?
WhammWhamme, tomsloger, MrCowFart
I have a thought about one of the rules (I promise it isn't about banning cards, but opening up more options). The new rule is more akin to how it treats random effects. How about this?
Remove the part of 2.2a that says:
Force a card of your choice in an opponent's hand to change zones before an opponent's second turn.
Put a new rule somewhere that says:
If an effect would force a card of your choice in an opponent's hand to change zones, the opponent chooses the card instead.
Duress would still have the opponent discard a nonland, noncreature card, but it would be the opponent's choice. For example:
Deck A casts Duress first turn, deck B can choose to discard Shatter as that would create a better play for deck B while still satisfying the conditions of Duress. This will deal with the problematic targeted discard (Thoughtseize) while maintaining the conditional targeted discard that brings a healthy metagame.