Half of the decks submitted are variations of last week's entries. The Punishing Fire build continues to be quite the monster, but there are ways to stop it (or just outrace it).
If you check out the CHANGES spoiler tag, you'll see that The Rack is unbanned and Dark Depths is banned (again). Even without Vampire Hexmage, there are ways to put a 20/20 in the battlefield on turn 2.
RESULTS
NEO 5CB #2
Format: Normal
1 - Draco9_1_1 Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Second Sunrise, Conjurer's Bauble, Grapeshot This deck went largely uninterrupted, other than a counterspell by deck #7. I thought about banning Second Sunrise, but I'll give it another week to see if people have proper responses to this deck.
X 1-2-3-4-5-6-7
1|X 6 6 6 6 6 0 = 30
2|0 X 0 6 0 6 6 = 18
3|0 6 X 6 6 6 6 = 30
4|0 0 0 X 6 s 0 = 08
5|0 6 0 0 X 6 6 = 18
6|0 0 0 s 0 X 6 = 08
7|6 0 0 6 0 0 X = 12
1. Draco9_1_1 (1) - 30
=. BronYAur (3) - 30
3. Charlie (2) - 18
=. WhammWhamme (5) - 18
5. Promatim (7) - 12
6. Hinotama (4) - 08
=. ~V~ (6) - 08
RULES
0. Overview
"NEO 5CB" is a weekly Magic tournament, run entirely within this forum. To compete, players submit five (5) card decks which are played against each other. Scoring assumes optimal play, without randomness or concealed information.
1. Game Rules
1.1. Except for the changes described in these rules, games follow the rules of Magic.
1.2. Players' decks contain exactly five (5) cards, which begin the game in hand. Players do not mulligan or sideboard.
1.3. Players' libraries begin the game empty. A player does not lose the game as a result of being unable to draw a card.
1.4. A random effect produces the result that least benefits the owner of the source of the effect.
1.5. Each player plays two games (one match) against each other player.
1.5a. Each player is the starting player once per match.
1.5b. If no player can win, the game is a draw.
1.5c. Games are played with perfect information.
1.5d. Games are played optimally; players attempt to win, draw, or extend the game – in that order.
2. Tournament Rules
2.1. Players submit their decks to the "NEO 5CB" moderator.
2.1a. A player may submit multiple decks, but only the most recent deck is counted.
2.1b. An illegal deck is not counted. The removal of an illegal deck does not affect deck distribution.
2.1c. The moderator determines the result of each match. Players may challenge results, but not after the results of the first round belonging to a new month have been posted.
2.2. Decks are subject to some restrictions.
2.2a. A player may not submit a deck that can do the following against any deck:
Win the game before an opponent's second turn.
Force a card of your choice in an opponent's hand to change zones before an opponent's second turn.
Force more than one card in an opponent's hand to change zones before an opponent's second turn.
2.2b. A player may not submit a deck that can't win both games of a match against at least one deck satisfying 2.2a, 2.2c, & 2.2d.
2.2c. A deck may include any number of any card legal in the following sets and/or card blocks:
Mirrodin Block
Kamigawa Block
Ravnica Block
Time Spiral Block
Lorwyn/Shadowmoor Block
Alara Block
Zendikar Block
Scars Block
2.3a. Players are ranked – first to last – in order of decreasing number of points.
2.3b. For each match, a player earns 3 points per game win and 1 point per drawn game. However, a player earns only 2 points for a split match (one win, one loss).
2.3c. A table of match results is posted each round. Its rows represent players and its columns represent opponents. Match results reflect the combined result of both games played in a match; 3 is a game win, 1 a drawn game, and 0 a game loss. The lowercase letter "s" may be used instead of 3 to denote a split match. A player's points are listed at the end of his or her row.
Since this NEO 5CB is similar in structure compared to Vintage 5CB, I was considering dropping NEO 5CB to revive 2CB instead so that the forum has more exposure to a variety of Card Blinds. We have a 6CB, 5CB, Infinity 3CB and such. 2CB will fill a niche.
Are there any legal decks that can even win the game on the first turn? And even if there were, would they even be viable due to the presence of Mindbreak Trap?
Force a card of your choice in an opponent's hand to change zones before an opponent's second turn.
Sure, this is fine.
Force more than one card in an opponent's hand to change zones before an opponent's second turn.
Are there any legal decks that can even win the game on the first turn? And even if there were, would they even be viable due to the presence of Mindbreak Trap?
Sure, this is fine.
This seems fine as well.
Considering that no one has run mindbreak trap so far, I'd say it would be viable. But I don't know what it'd be.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
I couldn't think of any decks that can win on the first or second turn. There are a few decks that can win on the third turn. I want the "second" turn to match on all three statements to make it easier to remember, rather than stagger the minimum turn limit.
I couldn't think of any decks that can win on the first or second turn. There are a few decks that can win on the third turn. I want the "second" turn to match on all three statements to make it easier to remember, rather than stagger the minimum turn limit.
The thing is, I would still let it be an option just to expose the bad players who risk everything only to get killed by a single card in the opponent's deck.
Plus, without disruption before the second turn, it makes it even harder to put together an OTK or 2TK.
Force a card of your choice in an opponent's hand to change zones before an opponent's second turn.
I would change this to before your opponents first turn.
This rule as is forces you to skew your mana base to a huge degree if you want to run any sort of targeted discard. However, counterspells have no such requirement, essentially pushing any controllish build into blue if they want to have a chance against combo. The fact that we have been seeing a couple counterspells but absolutely no targeted discard is a sign that it might be ok to relax the rule a little. If it's still too much you could just ban thoughtseize, which is really the main problematic culprit here.
Out of the cards listed, I see Duress and Inquisition of Kozilek being healthy for the metagame without being too disruptive, because they are limited on what they can remove from your opponent's hand. Most of the counterspells played in this format don't have the versatility that these discard spells have.
I don't think the 2 mana discard spells other then maybe tidehollow sculler (both win condition and hand disruption, like meddling mage) or Brain Pry (because it's easy to cast) would be a problem. 2 mana spells in this format force you to play two mana sources, which leaves you with only 2 cards left to win with. If one is a win condition and one is something to protect the board you have a decent deck but nothing that seems overboard.
The best deck i can think of that might emerge would be something like
lol nice to see that shelldock there I was going to mention it then i realized you added it. I might also add howltooth, it's a little trickier to abuse but potentially dangerous.
Consider a rule about playing targeted before your opponents first turn. This lets inquisition and duress be reasonably workable through playing a cipt land but would keep them in check, they prob shouldn't be so gamebreaking against lotus bloom decks on the play.
I would also ban blackmail and unban Castigate since it's 2 colors and two mana and it gives players a decent answer to graveyard shenanigans.
FuriouslySleepingIdea: The changes haven't gone into effect yet. Don't worry, you won't have to resubmit anything yet.
Castigate is going to remain banned because with all of the dual lands present, obtaining a combination of two colored mana isn't very difficult to do. Really though, I'd rather keep the targeted discard rule instead of letting it go and doubling the ban list size.
You may be right about it being better to have one rule then a massive banlist. I'm unsure about banning path though, it's strong at what it does but one mana creature removal is going to be important to the health of the game and there are ways of getting around it.
Path to Exile is too effective and versatile for what it does. I also want to encourage having a variety of creature removal options that require weighing in their strengths and weaknesses (Vendetta, Reciprocate, Flame Slash). As of right now, if you want to run cheap creature removal, Path to Exile is pretty much the only "right" choice.
I feel like you guys aren't letting this format evolve.
Castigate is banned? Tidehollow Sculler? Seriously?
Are you trying to push through slow and clunky combo? One of the things that makes the other 5CB fair is that the combo decks only win when no combo hate is played.
I don't see how punishing fire is legal and tidehollow sculler is banned.
Just let people make decks and figure out what works and what doesn't. That's how 5CB got their ban list. Force decks won for a long time, then barren glory, then other stuff, etc.
Things should be banned based on multiple tournament results. I feel like you're more eager to reinvent the format every two second than actually play some 5CB.
Path to Exile is too effective and versatile for what it does. I also want to encourage having a variety of creature removal options that require weighing in their strengths and weaknesses (Vendetta, Reciprocate, Flame Slash). As of right now, if you want to run cheap creature removal, Path to Exile is pretty much the only "right" choice.
Not true at all. Lightning bolt can go to the face. Punishing fire has double-duty as removal and a combo card. Path is good, but not really broken, in my opinion.
If you check out the CHANGES spoiler tag, you'll see that The Rack is unbanned and Dark Depths is banned (again). Even without Vampire Hexmage, there are ways to put a 20/20 in the battlefield on turn 2.
RESULTS
NEO 5CB #2
Format: Normal
1 - Draco9_1_1
Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Second Sunrise, Conjurer's Bauble, Grapeshot
This deck went largely uninterrupted, other than a counterspell by deck #7. I thought about banning Second Sunrise, but I'll give it another week to see if people have proper responses to this deck.
2 - Charlie
Darksteel Citadel, Arcbound Ravager, Mox Opal, Epochrasite, Memnite
Arcbound Ravager and Epochrasite were both pesky cards to deal with. The only problem with this deck is the lack of disruption.
3 - BronYAur
Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Sacred Foundry, Path to Exile, Naturalize
You've improved on your last design, now being able to deal with enchantments and artifacts. This deck seems almost perfect, but there are ways to stop it.
4 - Hinotama
Grapeshot, Wild Cantor, Enduring Renewal, Saltcrusted Steppe, Mountain
Nice combo, but it was actually too slow for the metagame. Double Lotus Blooms might work better here.
5 - WhammWhamme
Cloudpost, Cloudpost, Cloudpost, Platinum Angel, Platinum Angel
The third Cloudpost could be replaced with a Glimmerpost to churn out your Angels a turn faster. Having two Angels was a neat idea.
6 - ~V~
Copperline Gorge, Godlesss Shrine, Putrid Leech, Qasali Pridemage, Pyroclasm
Pyroclasm couldn't deal with big creatures. This deck will continue to underperform unless stronger removal is used.
7 - Promatim
Steam Vents, Goblin Guide, Goblin Guide, Lightning Bolt, Spell Pierce
Spell Pierce is good tech against combo decks. Unfortunately, you can't counter spells if you cast your Goblin Guide during your turn.
RULES
0. Overview
"NEO 5CB" is a weekly Magic tournament, run entirely within this forum. To compete, players submit five (5) card decks which are played against each other. Scoring assumes optimal play, without randomness or concealed information.
1. Game Rules
1.1. Except for the changes described in these rules, games follow the rules of Magic.
1.2. Players' decks contain exactly five (5) cards, which begin the game in hand. Players do not mulligan or sideboard.
1.3. Players' libraries begin the game empty. A player does not lose the game as a result of being unable to draw a card.
1.4. A random effect produces the result that least benefits the owner of the source of the effect.
1.5. Each player plays two games (one match) against each other player. 2. Tournament Rules
2.1. Players submit their decks to the "NEO 5CB" moderator. 2.2. Decks are subject to some restrictions. 2.3. Points determine tournament standings.
Vampire Hexmage and The Rack are unbanned.
Dark Depths is banned.
NEO 5CB #3
Format: Normal
Deck Submission Deadline:
Saturday, October 23, 3:00 AM GMT-5 (EST).Saturday, October 30, 3:00 AM GMT-5 (EST).
Submit your deck to Draco9_1_1.
Is there anyone that is willing to moderate in case I want to take a break from NEO 5CB every once in awhile? PM me if you are interested.
It still has tons of potential, so don't worry.
Is everyone satisfied with rule 2.2a right now? I would like to know your opinion about it.
Are there any legal decks that can even win the game on the first turn? And even if there were, would they even be viable due to the presence of Mindbreak Trap?
Sure, this is fine.
This seems fine as well.
Considering that no one has run mindbreak trap so far, I'd say it would be viable. But I don't know what it'd be.
The thing is, I would still let it be an option just to expose the bad players who risk everything only to get killed by a single card in the opponent's deck.
Plus, without disruption before the second turn, it makes it even harder to put together an OTK or 2TK.
This rule as is forces you to skew your mana base to a huge degree if you want to run any sort of targeted discard. However, counterspells have no such requirement, essentially pushing any controllish build into blue if they want to have a chance against combo. The fact that we have been seeing a couple counterspells but absolutely no targeted discard is a sign that it might be ok to relax the rule a little. If it's still too much you could just ban thoughtseize, which is really the main problematic culprit here.
MrCowFart - I see your concern. The main reason I put that rule in place is to give slower decks a chance to churn out their threats.
If the discard rule was changed to before an opponent's first turn, the following cards would make a profound impact on the metagame:
Distress
Duress
Inquisition of Kozilek
Thoughtseize
Brain Pry
Castigate
Tidehollow Sculler
Out of the cards listed, I see Duress and Inquisition of Kozilek being healthy for the metagame without being too disruptive, because they are limited on what they can remove from your opponent's hand. Most of the counterspells played in this format don't have the versatility that these discard spells have.
The best deck i can think of that might emerge would be something like
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Castigate
1 Path to Exile
1 Nezumi Shortfang
Which, while definitely a strong deck, has weak points.
Edit: Whoah im sorry bout the triple post the server bugged on me there.
Consider a rule about playing targeted before your opponents first turn. This lets inquisition and duress be reasonably workable through playing a cipt land but would keep them in check, they prob shouldn't be so gamebreaking against lotus bloom decks on the play.
I would also ban blackmail and unban Castigate since it's 2 colors and two mana and it gives players a decent answer to graveyard shenanigans.
Its an interesting format to knock lotus and the other old broken cards out of 5cb, and I like it.
Castigate is going to remain banned because with all of the dual lands present, obtaining a combination of two colored mana isn't very difficult to do. Really though, I'd rather keep the targeted discard rule instead of letting it go and doubling the ban list size.
Castigate is banned? Tidehollow Sculler? Seriously?
Are you trying to push through slow and clunky combo? One of the things that makes the other 5CB fair is that the combo decks only win when no combo hate is played.
I don't see how punishing fire is legal and tidehollow sculler is banned.
Just let people make decks and figure out what works and what doesn't. That's how 5CB got their ban list. Force decks won for a long time, then barren glory, then other stuff, etc.
Things should be banned based on multiple tournament results. I feel like you're more eager to reinvent the format every two second than actually play some 5CB.
Not true at all. Lightning bolt can go to the face. Punishing fire has double-duty as removal and a combo card. Path is good, but not really broken, in my opinion.
Also, black knight exists.
I just think we need to let more games happen.