Hey guys,
I am the hells of swamped with work this week. Thirty pages of essay due by Wednesday and I haven't started. So I haven't actually calculated any results yet. psly4mne has said he will do some of them; I'll start on them sometime tomorrow, and anyone who feels like posting their own matches or random ones, feel free, and we'll incorporate them.
Two Card Blind (2CB) is a Magic tournament, run entirely within this forum. To compete, players submit two-card decks which are played against each other. Scoring assumes optimal play, without randomness or concealed information.
1. Game Rules
1.1. Except for the changes described in these rules, games follow the Magic: The Gathering Comprehensive Rules.
1.2. Players' decks contain exactly two cards, which begin the game in hand. Players do not mulligan or sideboard.
1.3. Players' libraries begin the game empty. A player does not lose the game as a result of being unable to draw a card.
1.4. A random effect produces the result that least benefits the owner of the source of the effect.
1.5 Whenever a player could play a Land card, that player may put a Basic Land card from outside the game onto the battlefield. (Basic Snow Lands are Basic.)
2. Tournament Rules
2.1. Players submit their decks to the 2CB moderator (Personman).
2.1a. The moderator informs players of mistakes in a timely manner. (Sometimes. Often I run kinda late. Be careful.)
2.1b. A player may submit multiple decks, but only the most recent as of the deadline is counted.
2.1c. If a player's final deck is illegal, their most recent legal deck is used. If no legal deck has been submitted, they do not participate.
2.2. A player may not submit a deck that can, against any deck, win the game or force one or more cards in an opponent's hand to change zones before an opponent's first turn, or force a specific card in an opponent's hand to change zones before an opponent's second turn. (Note that forcing your opponent to discard two cards is very likely to force a specific card their hand to change zones.)
2.3. A deck may include any number of any card legal in Vintage (Type 1).
2.4. Each player plays one match, consisting of two games, against each other player. Each player is the starting player once per match. Results assume optimal play and perfect information.
2.4a. If no player can win, the game is a draw.
2.4b. A player that can't win or draw plays to extend the game.
2.5. Points determine tournament standings. Players are ranked, first to last, in order of decreasing number of points.
2.5a. For each match, a player earns 3 points per game win and 1 point per drawn game. Matches in which each player wins one game and loses one game are worth only 2 points per player, rather than 3.
2.5b. A table of match results is posted each round. Its rows represent players and its columns represent opponents. Match results reflect the combined result of both games played in a match. A player's total points are listed at the end of his or her row.
3. Banned List
3.1 The following cards are banned. Any deck that includes a card on this list is illegal.
Each month, the player with the highest combined score from the four rounds that month is designated Player of the Month. Here are the previous winners, in reverse chronological order:
Next week is normal. Unless I hear reasonable objections by this Saturday, I think we're going to ban 'targeted' discard. I'll formalize it in the rules if we end up going with it, but this would essentially mean that any deck that can force a card of its choice from its opponent's hand to change zones on turn 2 is illegal. Including mine, I've heard three voices in support of this notion and none against since I asked last week, so speak up if you don't like it!
EDIT: Alright, here's how it is: Nezumi Shortfang and fast 'targeted' discard are going bye-bye. Rule 2.2 and the banned list have been edited accordingly. One nice thing is that the banned list is now reduced to five cards, since Tidehollow Sculler and Mesmeric Fiend are outlawed under the new rules.
To clarify the changes: You can still play Ravenous Rats and Coercion. You can no longer play Distress.
Deadline is 11:59 PM EST next Wednesday.
ALSO: I've just started playing 5CB again, and you all should too! This coming week is the beginning of a POTM race for both of us, which makes it the perfect time to start. The playerbases for the two games have become almost entirely disjoint, which is a sad thing. I've just advertised for us over there, too, so hopefully the CBs will see some nice cross-pollination this coming week!
As does bmh, I have a vested interest in the results of this round. Here are my calculations (for all matches); I will check them with bmh's in a second:
Finals week
DragonDart vs plsy4mne: 0-6 (psly goldfishes T3)
DragonDart vs bmh: 0-6 (bmh empties hand T3, then blocks forever)
DragonDart vs VikingMetal4L: 0-6 (Augur of Skulls takes Bolas out of hand)
DragonDart vs pyrusette: 0-6 (pyrusette drops combo T4, wins T5)
DragonDart vs Personman: 0-6 (mana flare is symmetric)
DragonDart vs Tails2k5: 0-6 (addle)
DragonDart vs mutantman: 0-6 (addle)
psly4mne vs bmh: 3-3 (island sanctuary turns on on bmh's T3)
psly4mne vs VikingMetal4L: 3-3 (on the play I have hydra, on the draw I have two chump blockers; no mana to regenerate Auger!)
plsy4mne vs pyrusette: 6-0 (faster combo)
psly4mne vs Personman: 6-0 (faster combo)
psly4mne vs Tails2k5: 0-6 (addle the mantle; elspeth beats rofellos)
psly4mne vs mutantman: 0-6 (see above)
bmh vs VikingMetal4L: 3-3 (on the play I can strip his hand)
bmh vs pyrusette: 0-6 (c-c-c-combo)
bmh vs Personman: 6-0 (sanctuary just wins)
bmh vs Tails 2k5: 0-6 (addle takes mesa; elspeth actually does do the flying thing)
bmh vs mutantman: 2-2 (see above)
VikingMetal4L vs pyrusette: 6-0 (discard ftw)
VikingMetal4L vs Personman: 6-0 as follows (PM on the play):
T1:
T2: PM Touch, VM4L Hydra
T3: PM lands (4), VM4L Hydra(+1) attack
T4: PM(18) lands(6), VM4L Augur, attack
T5: PM(16) lands(8), VM4L sac Auger, Hydra(+2) attack
T6: PM(13) lands(10), VM4L Hydra(+4) attack
T7: PM(8) lands(12) flashback GRUSH OF WURMS. VM4L Hydra(+6) no attack.
T8: VM4L survives any attack from Personman, then pumps hydra to 8 for direct damage kill.
VikingMetal4L vs Tails2k5: 4-1 as follows
With Tails on the play: if Tails takes Hydra with Addle, then Augur takes game to a draw. If Tails takes Augur, then
T1:
T2: Tails Addle (Augur), VM4L Hydra
T3: VM4L Hydra(+1) attack
T4: Tails(18) Elspeth(5) make token, VM4L Hydra(+2) attack Elspeth (necessarily blocked, or Elspeth dies soon)
T5: Tails Elspeth(6) make token, VM4L Hydra(+3) attack Elspeth (necessarily blocked)
T6: Tails Elspeth(7) make token, VM4L Hydra(+5) attack (necessarily blocked)
T7: Tails Elspeth(8) make token, VM4L Hydra(+7), then remove counters to do 7 dmg to Elspeth
T8: Tails Elspeth(2) make 2nd token, VM4L(19) Hydra(+2) kill Elsepth, win from there.
--The same calculation shows that VM4L wins on the play because Hydra beats Elspeth.
VikingMetal4L vs mutantman: 4-1. Hydra beats Genju; Genju doesn't trample over Augur.
pyrusette vs Personman: 6-0
pyrusette vs Tails2k5: 0-6
pyrusette vs mutantman: 0-6
Personman vs Tails 2k5: 3-3 as follows
Personman on the play:
T1:
T2: PM Touch, Tails addle crush
T3: PM lands(4)
T4: PM lands(6), Tails Elspeth(5) make token
T5: PM lands(8), Tails Elspeth(6) make token
T6: PM(19) lands(10) sac Touch, flashback GRUSH, Tails Elspeth(7) make token; not enough to stabilize
Tails on the play:
T1:
T2: Tails Addle (take Touch)
T3:
T4: Tails Elspeth(5) make token
T5: Tails Elspeth(6) make token2
T6: PM(19), Tails Elspeth(7) make token3
T7: PM(17), Tails Elspeth(8) make token4
T8: PM(14), Tails Elspeth(9) make token5
T9: PM(10) flashback GRUSH, Tails Elspeth(1) make everything indestructible, no attack
T10: Tails Elspeth(2) now has 6 indestructible blockers, wins.
Personman vs mutantman: 3-3 (Genju goldfishes T7, which is fast enough iff mutantman can stop Gaea's Touch)
Tails2k5 vs mutantman: 3-3 (battle of the addle; otherwise Elspeth beats Genju)
Note: I say the bmh vs psly4mne match is 3-3 rather than 6-0 because bmh's Island Sanctuary doesn't protect him until his own T3, and plsy combos out T3.
Note: I say the bmh vs psly4mne match is 3-3 rather than 6-0 because bmh's Island Sanctuary doesn't protect him until his own T3, and plsy combos out T3.
Well what the hell... I sent an update to clarify that I meant Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. But apparently it was eaten up by the ether. Oh well, I was banking on slower decks, and that deck would have been too slow anyway.
Oh my, that's terrible! I just checked, and I did in fact not receive any such message. I feel like results should be recalculated. Yeah, I trust you. I'ma do it.
Speaking of the POTM race, it is really really close (and in the spreadsheet now). We'll see if DragonDart's new deck pushes bmh the last four points over the top...
You didn't win, bmh, hahaha, I am the dream crusher!
Is Nezumi Shortfang on the banned list?
Will you be dropping the hatchet on targeted discard?
Any word on what the special rounds will be this time around?
How about a Fastbond round? (Perhaps without the life cost to minimize the heartache of adjudication?)
There is part of me that wants to see how the metagame reacts to the knowledge that Nezumi won twice in a row. It's true that even if there are good solutions we might want to ban it: we banned The Rack even when it had never won, just because it was so format-defining. Still, I'm not going to axe Nezumi yet unless either a) at least two people speak up strongly in favor and no one opposes (by saturday morning), or b) the next two rounds go really badly because of it.
I'm pretty intrigued by the deck-of-sixty-lands format that DragonDart suggested. Would you start with five in your hand? I suppose it would be something like, you choose which basic land a card is as soon as it has an identity? I also think sixty might be too big a number for milling to be interesting, but I'm not sure. And shouldn't it be 58, anyway?
Also, people should tell me whether they want targeted discard to leave. This would have the added benefit of cutting the banned list down to three cards!
Browsing over the winning decks from the last weeks, discard effects are incredibly strong, especially as they tend to be undercosted due to their weaker effect on a real game. For example, in 2CB, Castigate (or even Ravenous Rats) is almost strictly better than Vindicate or counterspells. So I agree that it would be worth trying out banning all discard effects, although not indefinitely as discard can 'equalize' things and removing it may have unforeseen consequences.
On the other hand, Nezumi is far too strong, presenting both one of the fastest clocks around as well as discard. In short, if your deck has spells that cost more than two mana, you lose to Nezumi + anything. Most sadly, perhaps the best answer to Nezumi is, unfortunately, Nezumi, as it is very strong against all other decks. I would be fine seeing Nezumi banned indefinitely.
Alright, Psly4mne voted yes in person, so it's looking like Nezumi is going away.
I could get behind banning discard outright too - or maybe like, no discard until opponent's fourth turn? We could think about changing it from a ban to a play restriction too - Perhaps Nezumi could stay if you weren't allowed to activate until turn four? Turn five? I think 5CB used to work like that, but I wasn't around then - does anyone know if there were really good reasons why it was changed? It seems pretty clear cut to me - if doing something would make them discard too early, you just can't do it.
I still think targeted discard should also go, but untargeted discard should stay. But I wouldn't be terribly disappointed to see all discard banned.
I think play restrictions are more complicated (and not more useful) than outright bannings, and would prefer to avoid them for simplicity's sake. A summary of exactly what is legal for next week would be helpful, once it's decided.
Also, in the future a poll in the thread may be useful for gauging interest of more people than those who check the forum frequently.
Ok, so the spreadsheet was all full of wrong because I assumed that Psly4mne had just copied VM4L's results into it, but actually he had done them himself and made some mistakes, and then I had only half-corrected some matches so there was a 6-6 and a 0-0 >_<
Anyway I *think* it's all better now. Amazingly, rankings don't really change much, except the bottom three became a big tie.
I am the hells of swamped with work this week. Thirty pages of essay due by Wednesday and I haven't started. So I haven't actually calculated any results yet. psly4mne has said he will do some of them; I'll start on them sometime tomorrow, and anyone who feels like posting their own matches or random ones, feel free, and we'll incorporate them.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tA_X7YcXL7yXMcZmBxhOSGA&output=html
Results are up. Thanks VM4L!
Two Card Blind (2CB) is a Magic tournament, run entirely within this forum. To compete, players submit two-card decks which are played against each other. Scoring assumes optimal play, without randomness or concealed information.
1. Game Rules
1.1. Except for the changes described in these rules, games follow the Magic: The Gathering Comprehensive Rules.
1.2. Players' decks contain exactly two cards, which begin the game in hand. Players do not mulligan or sideboard.
1.3. Players' libraries begin the game empty. A player does not lose the game as a result of being unable to draw a card.
1.4. A random effect produces the result that least benefits the owner of the source of the effect.
1.5 Whenever a player could play a Land card, that player may put a Basic Land card from outside the game onto the battlefield. (Basic Snow Lands are Basic.)
2. Tournament Rules
2.1. Players submit their decks to the 2CB moderator (Personman).
2.1a. The moderator informs players of mistakes in a timely manner. (Sometimes. Often I run kinda late. Be careful.)
2.1b. A player may submit multiple decks, but only the most recent as of the deadline is counted.
2.1c. If a player's final deck is illegal, their most recent legal deck is used. If no legal deck has been submitted, they do not participate.
2.2. A player may not submit a deck that can, against any deck, win the game or force one or more cards in an opponent's hand to change zones before an opponent's first turn, or force a specific card in an opponent's hand to change zones before an opponent's second turn. (Note that forcing your opponent to discard two cards is very likely to force a specific card their hand to change zones.)
2.3. A deck may include any number of any card legal in Vintage (Type 1).
2.4. Each player plays one match, consisting of two games, against each other player. Each player is the starting player once per match. Results assume optimal play and perfect information.
2.4a. If no player can win, the game is a draw.
2.4b. A player that can't win or draw plays to extend the game.
2.5. Points determine tournament standings. Players are ranked, first to last, in order of decreasing number of points.
2.5a. For each match, a player earns 3 points per game win and 1 point per drawn game. Matches in which each player wins one game and loses one game are worth only 2 points per player, rather than 3.
2.5b. A table of match results is posted each round. Its rows represent players and its columns represent opponents. Match results reflect the combined result of both games played in a match. A player's total points are listed at the end of his or her row.
3. Banned List
3.1 The following cards are banned. Any deck that includes a card on this list is illegal.
* Fastbond
* Meddling Mage
* Nezumi Shortfang
* The Rack
* Black Lotus
Each month, the player with the highest combined score from the four rounds that month is designated Player of the Month. Here are the previous winners, in reverse chronological order:
POTM 4: VikingMetal4L
POTM 3: VikingMetal4L
POTM 2: VikingMetal4L
POTM 1: DragonDart
Next week is normal. Unless I hear reasonable objections by this Saturday, I think we're going to ban 'targeted' discard. I'll formalize it in the rules if we end up going with it, but this would essentially mean that any deck that can force a card of its choice from its opponent's hand to change zones on turn 2 is illegal. Including mine, I've heard three voices in support of this notion and none against since I asked last week, so speak up if you don't like it!
EDIT: Alright, here's how it is: Nezumi Shortfang and fast 'targeted' discard are going bye-bye. Rule 2.2 and the banned list have been edited accordingly. One nice thing is that the banned list is now reduced to five cards, since Tidehollow Sculler and Mesmeric Fiend are outlawed under the new rules.
To clarify the changes: You can still play Ravenous Rats and Coercion. You can no longer play Distress.
Deadline is 11:59 PM EST next Wednesday.
ALSO: I've just started playing 5CB again, and you all should too! This coming week is the beginning of a POTM race for both of us, which makes it the perfect time to start. The playerbases for the two games have become almost entirely disjoint, which is a sad thing. I've just advertised for us over there, too, so hopefully the CBs will see some nice cross-pollination this coming week!
bmh v. psly4mne: 6-0 Rofellos doesn't have wings. This combo is still awesome.
bmh v. VikingMetal4L: 3-3 On the draw, I lose Sacred Mesa and Molten Hydra burns me to death. Otherwise, I out race Hydra.
bmh v. pyrusette: 0-6 Nothing to say here.
bmh v. Personman: 6-0 You don't have disruption or wings. I win.
bmh v. Tails2k5: 0-6 Addle forces Mesa out of my hand, otherwise this might have been an interesting matchup.
bmh v. mutantman: 2-2, Sacred Mesa gets Addled out of my hand, Genju can't make it past Sanctuary.
Modern UW Taking Turns
psly4mne v. VikingMetal4L: 3-3
psly4mne v. pyrusette: 6-0
psly4mne v. Personman: 6-0 Rofellos goes infinite before the Wurms goes off.
psly4mne v. Tails2k: 0-6
psly4mne v. mutantman: 0-6
Modern UW Taking Turns
Finals week
DragonDart vs plsy4mne: 0-6 (psly goldfishes T3)
DragonDart vs bmh: 0-6 (bmh empties hand T3, then blocks forever)
DragonDart vs VikingMetal4L: 0-6 (Augur of Skulls takes Bolas out of hand)
DragonDart vs pyrusette: 0-6 (pyrusette drops combo T4, wins T5)
DragonDart vs Personman: 0-6 (mana flare is symmetric)
DragonDart vs Tails2k5: 0-6 (addle)
DragonDart vs mutantman: 0-6 (addle)
psly4mne vs bmh: 3-3 (island sanctuary turns on on bmh's T3)
psly4mne vs VikingMetal4L: 3-3 (on the play I have hydra, on the draw I have two chump blockers; no mana to regenerate Auger!)
plsy4mne vs pyrusette: 6-0 (faster combo)
psly4mne vs Personman: 6-0 (faster combo)
psly4mne vs Tails2k5: 0-6 (addle the mantle; elspeth beats rofellos)
psly4mne vs mutantman: 0-6 (see above)
bmh vs VikingMetal4L: 3-3 (on the play I can strip his hand)
bmh vs pyrusette: 0-6 (c-c-c-combo)
bmh vs Personman: 6-0 (sanctuary just wins)
bmh vs Tails 2k5: 0-6 (addle takes mesa; elspeth actually does do the flying thing)
bmh vs mutantman: 2-2 (see above)
VikingMetal4L vs pyrusette: 6-0 (discard ftw)
VikingMetal4L vs Personman: 6-0 as follows (PM on the play):
T1:
T2: PM Touch, VM4L Hydra
T3: PM lands (4), VM4L Hydra(+1) attack
T4: PM(18) lands(6), VM4L Augur, attack
T5: PM(16) lands(8), VM4L sac Auger, Hydra(+2) attack
T6: PM(13) lands(10), VM4L Hydra(+4) attack
T7: PM(8) lands(12) flashback GRUSH OF WURMS. VM4L Hydra(+6) no attack.
T8: VM4L survives any attack from Personman, then pumps hydra to 8 for direct damage kill.
VikingMetal4L vs Tails2k5: 4-1 as follows
With Tails on the play: if Tails takes Hydra with Addle, then Augur takes game to a draw. If Tails takes Augur, then
T1:
T2: Tails Addle (Augur), VM4L Hydra
T3: VM4L Hydra(+1) attack
T4: Tails(18) Elspeth(5) make token, VM4L Hydra(+2) attack Elspeth (necessarily blocked, or Elspeth dies soon)
T5: Tails Elspeth(6) make token, VM4L Hydra(+3) attack Elspeth (necessarily blocked)
T6: Tails Elspeth(7) make token, VM4L Hydra(+5) attack (necessarily blocked)
T7: Tails Elspeth(8) make token, VM4L Hydra(+7), then remove counters to do 7 dmg to Elspeth
T8: Tails Elspeth(2) make 2nd token, VM4L(19) Hydra(+2) kill Elsepth, win from there.
--The same calculation shows that VM4L wins on the play because Hydra beats Elspeth.
VikingMetal4L vs mutantman: 4-1. Hydra beats Genju; Genju doesn't trample over Augur.
pyrusette vs Personman: 6-0
pyrusette vs Tails2k5: 0-6
pyrusette vs mutantman: 0-6
Personman vs Tails 2k5: 3-3 as follows
Personman on the play:
T1:
T2: PM Touch, Tails addle crush
T3: PM lands(4)
T4: PM lands(6), Tails Elspeth(5) make token
T5: PM lands(8), Tails Elspeth(6) make token
T6: PM(19) lands(10) sac Touch, flashback GRUSH, Tails Elspeth(7) make token; not enough to stabilize
Tails on the play:
T1:
T2: Tails Addle (take Touch)
T3:
T4: Tails Elspeth(5) make token
T5: Tails Elspeth(6) make token2
T6: PM(19), Tails Elspeth(7) make token3
T7: PM(17), Tails Elspeth(8) make token4
T8: PM(14), Tails Elspeth(9) make token5
T9: PM(10) flashback GRUSH, Tails Elspeth(1) make everything indestructible, no attack
T10: Tails Elspeth(2) now has 6 indestructible blockers, wins.
Personman vs mutantman: 3-3 (Genju goldfishes T7, which is fast enough iff mutantman can stop Gaea's Touch)
Tails2k5 vs mutantman: 3-3 (battle of the addle; otherwise Elspeth beats Genju)
You are correct, but I don't hate you any less.
Modern UW Taking Turns
This makes me 6-0 you and mutantman.
Maybe I'll suck less for the next POTM race.
Speaking of the POTM race, it is really really close (and in the spreadsheet now). We'll see if DragonDart's new deck pushes bmh the last four points over the top...
EDIT: Haha, yeah that didn't happen. Sorry bmh...
Is Nezumi Shortfang on the banned list?
Will you be dropping the hatchet on targeted discard?
Any word on what the special rounds will be this time around?
How about a Fastbond round? (Perhaps without the life cost to minimize the heartache of adjudication?)
Modern UW Taking Turns
I'm pretty intrigued by the deck-of-sixty-lands format that DragonDart suggested. Would you start with five in your hand? I suppose it would be something like, you choose which basic land a card is as soon as it has an identity? I also think sixty might be too big a number for milling to be interesting, but I'm not sure. And shouldn't it be 58, anyway?
Also, people should tell me whether they want targeted discard to leave. This would have the added benefit of cutting the banned list down to three cards!
On the other hand, Nezumi is far too strong, presenting both one of the fastest clocks around as well as discard. In short, if your deck has spells that cost more than two mana, you lose to Nezumi + anything. Most sadly, perhaps the best answer to Nezumi is, unfortunately, Nezumi, as it is very strong against all other decks. I would be fine seeing Nezumi banned indefinitely.
I could get behind banning discard outright too - or maybe like, no discard until opponent's fourth turn? We could think about changing it from a ban to a play restriction too - Perhaps Nezumi could stay if you weren't allowed to activate until turn four? Turn five? I think 5CB used to work like that, but I wasn't around then - does anyone know if there were really good reasons why it was changed? It seems pretty clear cut to me - if doing something would make them discard too early, you just can't do it.
I still think targeted discard should also go, but untargeted discard should stay. But I wouldn't be terribly disappointed to see all discard banned.
I think play restrictions are more complicated (and not more useful) than outright bannings, and would prefer to avoid them for simplicity's sake. A summary of exactly what is legal for next week would be helpful, once it's decided.
Also, in the future a poll in the thread may be useful for gauging interest of more people than those who check the forum frequently.
Anyway I *think* it's all better now. Amazingly, rankings don't really change much, except the bottom three became a big tie.