An interesting game I found on the magicthegathering.com forums:
Quote from Qwyrxian »
This is the most skill intensive limited game I’ve ever played. The rules are adapted from the Magic-League website, where I used to play before I decided MtGO was just better than those “other” Magic programs in almost every way. The game involves drafting a very small number of cards, having all of them in your hand, and never getting mana screwed. It requires precise strategic planning and tactical adaptation.
At the start of each game (game, not match) each player is given 1-3 booster packs of any set. If you are playing with more than one pack (personally, I prefer 2) you choose 15 of them to be your “deck” for that game.
You may mulligan your boosters. If you do, the host provides new booster(s). Each time you mulligan, your deck size goes down by 1.
You do not have a library. It doesn’t exist (all cards that involve the library are errata-ed as explained below.
You still have a draw step, however you do not a draw a card in this step. You cannot draw a card at any point in the game (see mechanic changes below).
Players make all mulligan decisions before deciding who goes first. Rather than rolling (and rather than the normal “loser goes first” in game 2 and 3), the players send a PM to the host with a number between 0 and 19. The player with the higher bid chooses who goes first and loses life equal to the number bid. If there is a tie, the players rebid (and may choose the same or a different number), with bidding continuing until there is no tie.
During one of your main phases, you may “create” a basic land card and play it. You do this once per turn, and up to a maximum of 10 times for the entire game. The created lands are real lands in every way, so they are targetable, go to the graveyard if destroyed, etc.—they are not considered to be tokens.
If the game should get to a state in which neither player is willing or able to change the game state (if, for example, both players have no hands, no creatures, in play, etc.), then the game will be called a draw.
To accommodate the unusual rules of this game several commonly occurring mechanics are changed, as described below. Other than those changes, the actual game proceeds as normal.
Mechanic Changes:
Any time a card instructs you to "Draw a card" you simply substitute the words: "Gain 2 life."
Ex: Compulsive Research reads, "Gain 6 life, then discard 2 cards unless you discard a land card."
Ex: Zur's Weirding reads, “Whenever a player would gain 2 life, you may pay 2 life. If you do, that player doesn't gain 2 life.”
Rewritten to say, “During your draw step, you may choose and discard X cards. If you do, put this card from your graveyard into your hand.
Ex: You may choose to discard 2 cards during your draw step to put Moldervine Cloak from your graveyard to your hand.
Rewritten to say “{Cost}, Discard this card: Return target card with a converted mana cost to equal to the converted mana cost of the transmuted card from your graveyard to your hand. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery.”
Ex: You may transmute Dizzy Spell to return Caregiver from your graveyard to your hand.
Any card that says “Put the top X cards of target player’s library into his or her graveyard” is rewritten to say “Gain life equal to one half of X, rounded up.” Note that this change does not affect cards like Millikin or Arc-Slogger that self-mill as a drawback—those cards still work with no drawback, but do not also gain you life.
Ex: Glimpse of the Unthinkable reads “Gain 5 Life.”
Ex: Screeching Sliver reads “All Slivers have ‘T: Gain 1 life’”
Hellbent's condition is now: As long as you have five or less cards in your hand.
Ex: Demon's Jester's Hellbent ability reads: Demon's Jester gets +2/+1 as long as you have five or less cards in your hand.
If a card is put into your library from anywhere, it is removed from the game instead.
Ex: Temporal Spring reads, “Remove target permanent from the game.”
Library -> Play: If it is a land, create a basic land and put it in play (e.g., Rampant Growth lets you create any basic land). These do not count towards you 10 land limit. If if it is a non-land, you may put a card of the same quality from graveyard to play (e.g., Chord of Calling now says “Put a creature card with converted mana X from your graveyard into play.”). Library -> Hand: If it is a land, create a basic land and put it in your hand. These do not count towards you 10 land limit (e.g., Green Seeker). If it is a non-land, put it from graveyard to your hand (e.g., Mystical Teachings now says “Put target instant card or card with flash from your graveyard into your hand[/card]). Library -> Top of Library: If a card asks you to search for a specific card and put it on your library, you must remove a card of the specific quality in your graveyard from the game. For each card you do this with, you gain 2 life. For instance, Congregation of Dawn at dawn says “Remove up to three creature cards in your graveyard from the game. You gain 2 life for each creature card removed this way.” Library -> Graveyard: This goes from hand to graveyard (e.g., Entomb now says “Put a creature card from your hand into your graveyard.”). Library manipulation: If cards would be placed from the top X cards of your library back on top, gain 2 life. If a card from the top X cards would be placed in your hand, gain 2 life. (Sage of Epityr says “When Sage of Epityr comes into play, you gain 2 life.”). However, if a card has an activated triggered ability to look at the top X cards and manipulate them, it does nothing (e.g., Sensei's Diving Top does nothing).
Cards that are based on hand size, or allow you to discard X cards: Your hand size counts as 4, unless it is lower. Then it counts as its actual size. This causes Sudden Impact to hit for 4, Maro to be a 4/4, but also allows hellbent to eventually activate. However, the actual maximum on number of cards you can hold in your hand is equal to the number of cards you started the game with. If a card allows or forces you to discard X cards, you may discard up to 4, and are never required to discard more than 4.
Ex.: One With Nothing now reads "You discard 4 cards from your hand."
Ex.: Mind Shatter now reads, "Target player discards X or 4 cards at random, whichever is smaller."
For cards such as Sinbad or Erratic Mutation, reveal the top card(s) of your graveyard instead. Complete all other instructions using those revealed cards. For cards with Clash, after a winner is determined (by “revealing” the top card of each person’s graveyard) each player puts that card on the top or bottom of his or her graveyard.
Tromp the Domains - This card only gives a maximum of +2/+2 to each creature rather than its +1/+1 for each basic land. Barbed Shocker - Card now reads "Whenever Barbed Shocker deals damage to a player, that player discards 2 cards, then gains 4 life." Hoarder's Greed - Card now reads: "You lose two life and your opponent discards two cards. Clash with an opponent. If you win, repeat this process unless this is the second time this process was repeated."
Other domain cards from Conflux and Invasion block may be subject to errataing. No such errata will be made during games.
Is anybody interested? Also, it would be nice to know what the preffered packs are. The host made this with 2x Time Spiral, but anything is possible.
Also, sorry mods, we'll need 8 seperate threads for this - This one, four eliminations, two semifinals, finals.
This will be an 8 player, single Elimination tournament.
1. ced395 (eliminated in the Semifinals)
2. Dogod (eliminated in the Finals)
3. Shadow Knight (eliminated in the Quarterfinals(game 2))
4. bilbroxain (eliminated in the Quarterfinals)
5. Magus819 (eliminated in the Quarterfinals)
6. Some One (eliminated in the Semifinals)
7. Hat@Clogs (eliminated in the Quarterfinals) 8. Mogg - Champion of the first MTGSalvation Mindmaster!
2. bman65 (eliminated in the semifinals)
5. bateleur (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
9. canadiangreenberet (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
10. jordman Replaced by buddylee1050 (eliminated in the Pod finals)
11. Madmanquail (eliminated in the Finals)
14. FuriouslySleepingIdea (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
15. Help I'm a Bug (eliminated in the semifinals)
16. Some One (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
1. Dogod (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
3. Mogg - Champion of the second MTGSalvation Mindmaster!
4. Magus819 (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
6. Halinn (eliminated in the semifinals)
7. bilbroxain (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
8. ced395 (eliminated in the Pod finals)
12. Hat@clogs (eliminated in the semifinals)
13. YuanTi (eliminated in the quarterfinals due to disappearing)
3. Hallin (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
6. loran16 (eliminated in the semifinals)
5. bman65 (eliminated in the quarterfinals
8. Mogg (eliminated in the finals)
2. ced395 (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
7. DragonDart (eliminated in the semifinals)
4. Dogod (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
1. Madmanquail - Champion of the third MTGSalvation Mindmaster!
3. Id_Ego (eliminated in the qurterfinals)
2. loran16 (eliminated in the finals)
5. bateleur (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
4. Madmanquail (eliminated in the semifinals)
7. DragonDart - Champion of the fourth MTGSalvation Mindmaster!
8. bman65 (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
1. Mogg (eliminated in the semifinals)
6. Hallin(eliminated in the quarterfinals)
Technichally the most there will be at one time are 5 (first round elimintions+this one). After that, we go down to three, then 2 and nothing. And it's not like there's that many active threads in here.
Actually, it migt be a good idea to make a play-by-post section of the forum games section for all sorts of these threads.
Any card that says “Put the top X cards of target player’s library into his or her graveyard” is rewritten to say “Gain life equal to one half of X, rounded up.” Note that this change does not affect cards like Millikin or Arc-Slogger that self-mill as a drawback—those cards still work with no drawback, but do not also gain you life.
Players make all mulligan decisions before deciding who goes first. Rather than rolling (and rather than the normal “loser goes first” in game 2 and 3), the players send a PM to the host with a number between 0 and 19. The player with the higher bid goes first and loses life equal to the number bid. If there is a tie, the players rebid (and may choose the same or a different number), with bidding continuing until there is no tie.
What if both players want to go second and both players keep choosing 0? (It's unlikely, but it can happen.)
@Dogod:
For your first question, you're looking at the wrong rule. What you need, due to the card's wording, is this:
For cards such as Sinbad or Erratic Mutation, reveal the top card(s) of your graveyard instead. Complete all other instructions using those revealed cards. For cards with Clash, after a winner is determined (by “revealing” the top card of each person’s graveyard) each player puts that card on the top or bottom of his or her graveyard.
In other words, all cards in the player's graveyard go to his graveyard, or at least until 4 lands are revealed. The only case this would matter is revealing dead morphed morphs if I'm not wrong
If there is a tie, the players rebid (and may choose the same or a different number), with bidding continuing until there is no tie.
That's your second question
Remember that you mulligan before you send bids. You just rebid until there's a decision.
EDIT: Also, none of you mentioned. What packs do you prefer to play with?
Time Spiral is actually quite complicated and skill-intensive from what Qwyrxian said (and I saw). I believe sets such as the Lorwyn superblock and Onslaught block would be nice for starters.
That's your second question
Remember that you mulligan before you send bids. You just rebid until there's a decision.
You didn't understand my question. The way the rule is worded, if both players want to go second, they will both bid 0 and never bid anything higher. I think the rule should have said the person who bid highest chooses weather to go first or second, and loses that much life.
If both players bid the same amount, they must bid again. That's the whole point. If you want to be first you need to pay for it. It can be as little as 1 or as much as 19.
I've seen a game which went on for 5 bids. I guarentee you, one of the players breaks in the end.
The thing is, going first in this format matters a lot. I saw a game where a player bid seven to go first and won with three slivers, including the virulent one.
Thing is, after one round there'll be three players left.
How about this. First round, single elimination. Second round, each player plays both the others, the lowest wins amount is eliminated. Then a finals match.
I'll play. I just found this thread through Magus819's sig.
I can't start until Sunday as I still have finals. If anyone else wants to join in the meantime, feel free to boot me. But it's an intriguing game, and I'd like to play.
Now for some not-so-intriguing questions, because I want to be clear on a few points.
1. Clarification: My cards all start in my hand? It sounds this way in the intro but isn't specified later on. Also, can players not loseby decking?
2. How do you generate the packs?
3. I'd like clarification on the mulligan rule. My understanding is as follows: I start by looking at thirty cards. If I'm dissastisfied with those, I can mulligan them into a new thirty. I can now play only 14 cards instead of 15.
4. Since mulligans are declared before player order is determined, who resolves mulligans first?
5. Despite not actually drawing a card, do I attempt to draw a card at the start of the draw step? If so, does the life-gain effect apply (not an effect of a card)?
6. Dredge: Assuming "Yes" for 5 – part one, does Dredge replace life-gain?
7. Mill: I don't understand why Arc-Slogger's ability works, as it requires a specific number of cards greater than zero to be milled. Assuming it works because the second part of the rule is unrelated to the first, what is the precise definition of "self-mill as a drawback"? "Mill that can only affect the ability's controller as part of a cost"? Does it also include "mill that can only affect the controller as part of an effect"?
8. "You may discard up to 4". "May" or "can"? "May" suggests that if I'm Mind Shattered I can choose to discard zero cards.
1. Yes, all of your cards start in hand. No, you can't lose by decking.
2. Probably MWS. Might go to a website if we need Planar Chaos or Future Sight boosters, since they have special amounts of specific kinds of cards. MWS handles Time Spiral fine though, since the extra Timeshifted card is simply one per pack, and so the normal TS booster has 14 cards and there's also a "timeshifted booster" which is just one timeshifted card.
3. Yes, and if you mulligan again you can only play 13, etc.
4. Mulligans are resolved whenever you decide to mulligan until you decide to keep. In other words, no specific order.
5. No, you don't attempt to draw a card in your draw step, therefore there's no lifegain.
7. Pretty much what you said. I can always make a ruling on the spot if needed.
8. Here you go:
Ex.: Mind Shatter now reads, "Target player discards X or 4 cards at random, whichever is smaller."
In other words, you can only, for a single effect, discard four cards at once. If you are forced to discard cards, you discard that many cards but no more than four. This is what the "may" means.
9. I use Random.org
The rounds will be up on sunday, as per Mogg's request. You'll know your pairings and be sent your packs at that time.
Also, just to make sure everybody knows: The bidding rule was changed to this (it also changed in the first post):
Players make all mulligan decisions before deciding who goes first. Rather than rolling (and rather than the normal “loser goes first” in game 2 and 3), the players send a PM to the host with a number between 0 and 19. The player with the higher bid chooses who goes first and loses life equal to the number bid. If there is a tie, the players rebid (and may choose the same or a different number), with bidding continuing until there is no tie.
Thank you. I'd just rather sort through any of my misconceptions ahead of time.
I'm still not quite clear on how mulligan order will work in practice. You gain an advantage by knowing if your opponent chooses to mulligan or not, so why I would I ever declare my mulligans first? Assuming my opponent thinks the same, I foresee a lot of thumb-twiddling. Or are mulligans declared in secret to you?
You can always declare mulligans by PM. I don't think it's a problem, though I'll probably mention how many times each player mulliganed at the start of the game to keep it fair.
Also, just in case it wasn't clear from the rules - You play matches, and get new packs every game in the match with which to build a new deck (only from the packs you just recieved).
Is anybody interested? Also, it would be nice to know what the preffered packs are. The host made this with 2x Time Spiral, but anything is possible.
Also, sorry mods, we'll need 8 seperate threads for this - This one, four eliminations, two semifinals, finals.
This will be an 8 player, single Elimination tournament.
2. Dogod (eliminated in the Finals)
3. Shadow Knight (eliminated in the Quarterfinals(game 2))
4. bilbroxain (eliminated in the Quarterfinals)
5. Magus819 (eliminated in the Quarterfinals)
6. Some One (eliminated in the Semifinals)
7. Hat@Clogs (eliminated in the Quarterfinals)
8. Mogg - Champion of the first MTGSalvation Mindmaster!
Mindmaster #2(2 packs 1 deck 3 games RAV/GLP RAV/DIS GLP/DIS) - Winner: Mogg
2. bman65 (eliminated in the semifinals)
5. bateleur (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
9. canadiangreenberet (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
10.
jordmanReplaced by buddylee1050 (eliminated in the Pod finals)11. Madmanquail (eliminated in the Finals)
14. FuriouslySleepingIdea (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
15. Help I'm a Bug (eliminated in the semifinals)
16. Some One (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
3. Mogg - Champion of the second MTGSalvation Mindmaster!
4. Magus819 (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
6. Halinn (eliminated in the semifinals)
7. bilbroxain (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
8. ced395 (eliminated in the Pod finals)
12. Hat@clogs (eliminated in the semifinals)
13. YuanTi (eliminated in the quarterfinals due to disappearing)
Mindmaster #3: (2 packs 1 deck 3 games CHK/BOK CHK/SOK BOK/SOK) - Winner: Madmanquail
6. loran16 (eliminated in the semifinals)
5. bman65 (eliminated in the quarterfinals
8. Mogg (eliminated in the finals)
2. ced395 (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
7. DragonDart (eliminated in the semifinals)
4. Dogod (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
1. Madmanquail - Champion of the third MTGSalvation Mindmaster!
Mindmaster #4: (3 packs 2 decks 3 games Masques/Nemesis/Prophecy) Winner - DragonDart
2. loran16 (eliminated in the finals)
5. bateleur (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
4. Madmanquail (eliminated in the semifinals)
7. DragonDart - Champion of the fourth MTGSalvation Mindmaster!
8. bman65 (eliminated in the quarterfinals)
1. Mogg (eliminated in the semifinals)
6. Hallin(eliminated in the quarterfinals)
My blog.
Actually, it migt be a good idea to make a play-by-post section of the forum games section for all sorts of these threads.
My blog.
What does Mind Funeral do?
What if both players want to go second and both players keep choosing 0? (It's unlikely, but it can happen.)
For your first question, you're looking at the wrong rule. What you need, due to the card's wording, is this:
In other words, all cards in the player's graveyard go to his graveyard, or at least until 4 lands are revealed. The only case this would matter is revealing dead morphed morphs if I'm not wrong
That's your second question
Remember that you mulligan before you send bids. You just rebid until there's a decision.
EDIT: Also, none of you mentioned. What packs do you prefer to play with?
My blog.
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Many thanks to Sgt. Chubbz of Damnation studios.
My blog.
You didn't understand my question. The way the rule is worded, if both players want to go second, they will both bid 0 and never bid anything higher. I think the rule should have said the person who bid highest chooses weather to go first or second, and loses that much life.
I've seen a game which went on for 5 bids. I guarentee you, one of the players breaks in the end.
My blog.
My blog.
If nobody has a problem with it I'll change it.
My blog.
How about this. First round, single elimination. Second round, each player plays both the others, the lowest wins amount is eliminated. Then a finals match.
My blog.
My blog.
I can't start until Sunday as I still have finals. If anyone else wants to join in the meantime, feel free to boot me. But it's an intriguing game, and I'd like to play.
Now for some not-so-intriguing questions, because I want to be clear on a few points.
1. Clarification: My cards all start in my hand? It sounds this way in the intro but isn't specified later on. Also, can players not loseby decking?
2. How do you generate the packs?
3. I'd like clarification on the mulligan rule. My understanding is as follows: I start by looking at thirty cards. If I'm dissastisfied with those, I can mulligan them into a new thirty. I can now play only 14 cards instead of 15.
4. Since mulligans are declared before player order is determined, who resolves mulligans first?
5. Despite not actually drawing a card, do I attempt to draw a card at the start of the draw step? If so, does the life-gain effect apply (not an effect of a card)?
6. Dredge: Assuming "Yes" for 5 – part one, does Dredge replace life-gain?
7. Mill: I don't understand why Arc-Slogger's ability works, as it requires a specific number of cards greater than zero to be milled. Assuming it works because the second part of the rule is unrelated to the first, what is the precise definition of "self-mill as a drawback"? "Mill that can only affect the ability's controller as part of a cost"? Does it also include "mill that can only affect the controller as part of an effect"?
8. "You may discard up to 4". "May" or "can"? "May" suggests that if I'm Mind Shattered I can choose to discard zero cards.
9. How are randomed effects resolved?
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
Mogg:
1. Yes, all of your cards start in hand. No, you can't lose by decking.
2. Probably MWS. Might go to a website if we need Planar Chaos or Future Sight boosters, since they have special amounts of specific kinds of cards. MWS handles Time Spiral fine though, since the extra Timeshifted card is simply one per pack, and so the normal TS booster has 14 cards and there's also a "timeshifted booster" which is just one timeshifted card.
3. Yes, and if you mulligan again you can only play 13, etc.
4. Mulligans are resolved whenever you decide to mulligan until you decide to keep. In other words, no specific order.
5. No, you don't attempt to draw a card in your draw step, therefore there's no lifegain.
7. Pretty much what you said. I can always make a ruling on the spot if needed.
8. Here you go:
In other words, you can only, for a single effect, discard four cards at once. If you are forced to discard cards, you discard that many cards but no more than four. This is what the "may" means.
9. I use Random.org
The rounds will be up on sunday, as per Mogg's request. You'll know your pairings and be sent your packs at that time.
Also, just to make sure everybody knows: The bidding rule was changed to this (it also changed in the first post):
...Yeah, it's a pretty small change.
My blog.
I'm still not quite clear on how mulligan order will work in practice. You gain an advantage by knowing if your opponent chooses to mulligan or not, so why I would I ever declare my mulligans first? Assuming my opponent thinks the same, I foresee a lot of thumb-twiddling. Or are mulligans declared in secret to you?
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
Also, just in case it wasn't clear from the rules - You play matches, and get new packs every game in the match with which to build a new deck (only from the packs you just recieved).
My blog.