I understand the difficulties involved here but I think it's worth the investment to make this a reality again. I'm sure you derive absolutely no personal enjoyment from having to continue to discuss this issue with me. Tell me your plan so that we can move on.
We have no plans to reopen Debate, and are not working towards any plans to reopen Debate. It was closed for many reasons, and as far as we can see, those reasons remain valid.
There are plenty of other sites specifically tailored to hosting those types of debates. I am not personally familiar with them, however a quick google search resulted in this Quora question, which has several answers. Might be a place to start. I have also found the various stack exchanges to be nice areas for discussion of a multitude of topics, they have a politics one, though I haven't frequented that one myself.
Now, this does not mean that we cannot one day reopen debate here on Salvation, however it would take a lot of work and dedication.
First, we would need to see that such a forum is actually requested and wanted by the community. Included in this should be a general overview or scope of what the forum should cover, and any particular additional rules that might be required by it. I can say that I would personally be against the NSFW sub forum for it, given our current optics as a family-friendly site. Likely to raise awareness for this, you would start a thread in Community Discussion forum to gain and show interest, and then bring it to our attention.
Second, we would need a reasoned argument as to why the debate forum would NEED to be on MTGSalvation, and what benefits being on Salvation would give, compared to other more dedicated forums.
Third, we would need a reasoned argument as to why the forum would be beneficial to Salvation. Considering the history of Debate on this site, you would want to overcome those challenges.
Finally, we would need a Moderator champion to lead it, and would likely need two, maybe three moderators overall to run it (including the lead). The secondary moderator could be a new hire for the forum, but the lead would likely need to be an enfranchised Moderator.
All of this would then need to be presented to the owners, for final approval.
Now, there currently are no moderators willing to take up the mantle of a Debate forum, however there are plenty of moderator openings where someone could join the staff and get a feel of the process and experience, and then move on to other improvements. We are always looking for talented, calm, and rational individuals, especially those that have ideas and visions for improving the site.
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This would be the same for any other off topic forum (and even on-topic, though showing the common interest on those is easier). For example, if someone wanted to make a Yu-Gi-Oh forum, or an Anime forum, it would be the same idea.
Given that lynch is a word with very heavy racial overtones, and that we're currently suffering from societal issues around extrajudicial killings, it doesn't strike me that this is acceptable discourse. Perhaps there is some context that I'm unaware of; it doesn't matter. This was discovered by way of a site admin's profile and viewing their most recent posts, and if there's something buried in that thread to explain it, I don't see how any casual observer would bother to sift through ~5,000 posts for an explanation. I wouldn't hesitate to report a random poster for using such language, I certainly don't see how the site owners can lay claim to promoting a 'neutral' atmosphere here at MTGS when even their own admins exercise poor judgment in conversation.
Given the discourse that has already transpired in this very thread (for whatever that's worth), it would only serve to validate the impression that MTGS has an alt-right bias if shadowlancerx were allowed to maintain their current level of power and authority. I respectfully urge that the wolf be removed from the sheep. Thank you.
Is this Flow speaking again trying to repeat what happened on MU?
The forum mafia community on MtGSalvation (and elsewhere) has addressed the use of the word "lynch" and taken steps to move away from it. This has become the standard across major forum mafia communities, with people using "execute", "eliminate", "kill", or "yeet", among others. There is not an active censorship of the word "lynch" for most communities because it would reap more negative results than positive. Not from people not being willing to change, but from change taking time.
Having been in an admin position in another forum mafia community for about two years now, we also brought up the change. And the same discussion happened in every other forum mafia community I've seen:
Censorship is not a policy to maintain and opens up a very different can of worms.
The community is diverse; there are non-US-citizens for whom censorship of the word "lynch" is Americans forcing their own problems on the rest of the community.
It is possible to encourage use of other words and doing so will be more effective over time to peacefully ensure stepping away from the word "lynch" than censorship.
A small few forum mafia communities have still chosen to censor the word, but the more common forum mafia community consensus is one of encouraging other words instead of one of punishing people for using the word.
Additionally, while Shadowlancerx is a member of the MTGSalvation forum mafia community, he does not uniquely represent it. It is an active part of the site which as of most recent discussion, even prior to Shadowlancerx becoming an admin, there were no plans to remove from the site, despite past MTGSalvation admin history of hating on, bullying, and removing non-Magic sections and members involved in said sections. Unlike other admins, Shadow and bob are good people, not emblematic of the rampant bullying of site users, disgusting back-doors gossip, and admin-maintained drama for the sake of drama which has been the normal from MtGSalvation site admins for years. MTGSalvation as a site had become a dead whale since long before the site threatened to close. The previous group of admins realized this and left to make their own site, cutting off anyone who didn't want to switch over as unworthy. Leaving behind a skeleton crew to run things and knowing that the support of the Commander RC and similar sorts of little odds and ends would keep their site afloat rather than what was left of MTGSalvation. Shadowlancerx was asked to step up as a staff member who was prominent in one of the only groups still active on the site, the forum mafia community.
The MtGSalvation forum mafia community has already had offers from other forum mafia communities to join them elsewhere. I was one of several making that offer. The MTGSalvation forum mafia community, while it has had more history than the site itself, has always been a positive contribution even at its lowest moments.
In addition to running a mafia community, like mikeyG, I also used to moderate the Debate section here. There is no impression that MTGSalvation has an alt-right bias. There never has been. MtGSalvation has always been accused of being a liberal echo-chamber.
This thread is not a replacement for the (closed) debate forum.
While this thread is not a replacement, a group of prominent MtGS Debate veterans have had a Discord replacement for a while now. Said Discord can be found here for any who are interested:
5. You know what else would affect revenue? Becoming a Magic site that doesn't discuss Magic.
If a person arrives at this site from google, wanting to look up an interaction, or discuss some new cards - but instead they see a bunch of people yelling at each other about entirely unrelated things? Well suddenly that makes this seem like a terrible site to come to for the answers to Magic related questions.
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I joined this site to discuss Magic. I joined it to discuss Commander. I joined the moderator team to help improve the goals of facilitating that kind of discussion. For the last THREE MONTHS, 95% of my interaction and duties on this site have been entirely non-magic related. I'm frankly getting sick and tired of this.
It's almost like when you shut down the non-Magic sections of a site and move the Magic discussion to another site which is even more draconian about non-Magic discussion than MTGSalvation was because it is representative of the people who run it, you get non-Magic discussion in other sections of the first site... Not sure why this would be a surprise.
We do not have the staff to moderate a forum designated to this kind of discussion. We used to have a forum dedicated to this type of discussion, we did not have the staff then, and the forum devolved into 4chan lite. I have no desire to moderate a 4chan lite, nor do I believe it is feasible, nor appropriate for this site. Perhaps one day we will have staff that is interested in bringing this back, and willing to moderate it, and perhaps even make it appropriate for the site. Currently, none of those are true. I will die on this hill.
Nah... You're confusing Debate with the Gutter because that's the propaganda that was pounded into all of our heads. It was never the same thing.
Looking at the retired forum, there are 11 threads that needed to be deleted in the first page alone, and another 9 on the second page. That's not healthy. There are also a significant amount of red text, and banned members in the responses.
Yeah, it was over-moderated as a policy, particularly by admins and a couple of overbearing global moderators, who like the admins, went out of their way to maintain high levels of drama throughout their dealings.
I am well aware that there were several mods that held the forum in fond memory, however there was solid reason to shut it down at the time. Perhaps it could return one day, but today is definitely not the time.
The solid reason to shut it down at the time was that both of the moderators involved (myself and Blinking Spirit) had other commitments. I had school which was taking up more and more of my time, and Blinking Spirit had their own personal concerns. These were not the primary reason it was shut down, though. They weren't even the spark. The admins at the time had openly made clear for years that they wanted to shut down as many non-Magic sections as they could. It was convenient. A section shutdown had been on the table for months.
You can tell the behaviour in the section wasn't really the problem because the Debate regulars now participate in our own Discord, which necessitates a much lower level of moderation than the MtGS Debate section ever had.
For anyone who didn't want to sift through the wall, the MTGSalvation Debate section replacement Discord (established around when the section closed) can be found here:
osieorb18, thank you for your clarifictions. This is indeed eye-opening.
bob, thank you for laying out the process. I am pleased to see you respond in a way that is somewhat helpful. I have quite a lot of other remarks that I have been mulling over with regard to you. For the time being, though, please forward the staff's list of concerns to me so that we may accurately characterize them in our proposal.
Osieorb, thank you for the information on the Discord, I was not aware of that previously. Also thank you for the corrections on the closure of Debate. As I was not involved in the process, all I have are the sentiments and notes of the Admins at the time, which as you point out are simply one side of the story.
H3RAC71TU5, I would say that the biggest things to address would be why we should have a debate forum here, rather than a site better suited and dedicated to it; how to maintain a debate forum in a family and work friendly environment; and how to respond to bad actors and trolls, without expressing a personal bias, or implicating personal policy as site policy.
Lessons learned: if you let the conservative Christian moderator repeatedly ban the liberal voices of dissent, you'll eventually get the 'neutrality' you were aiming for. For a month, at least. Or maybe 6 months, next time? The irony is clouding my mind at present.
A recently deleted thread from the general forum has me very confused about Feyd_Ruin's role as a mod here, not least of all because it concerned discourse and moderation prerogatives on a completely different website. Is Feyd a mod here, a mod at another website, both, or neither? I ask the latter because certain phraseology in the deleted thread was, charitably, nebulous at best: in defense of the moderation team, "they banned you" and "they maintain a site that doesn't allow allow for political discussion" was used in place of "we," the pronoun I would have expected as a tacit (or even deliberate) form of collective ownership and responsibility. Can you shed some light on this, bob? I'd hate to see similar behavior invoked by authority figures here at MTGS, where we already have a major problem with intellectually (and politically) disingenuous discourse being sheltered. Thank you.
We do not have the staff to moderate a forum designated to this kind of discussion. We used to have a forum dedicated to this type of discussion, we did not have the staff then, and the forum devolved into 4chan lite. I have no desire to moderate a 4chan lite, nor do I believe it is feasible, nor appropriate for this site. Perhaps one day we will have staff that is interested in bringing this back, and willing to moderate it, and perhaps even make it appropriate for the site. Currently, none of those are true. I will die on this hill.
A recently deleted thread from the general forum has me very confused about Feyd_Ruin's role as a mod here, not least of all because it concerned discourse and moderation prerogatives on a completely different website. Is Feyd a mod here, a mod at another website, both, or neither?
Both.
Feyd is a technical admin and mod here, and is also the primary tech and administrator of MTGNexus. The two sites are separate, and have differing policies, though our policies and approaches do overlap in some ways. We have a few members who moderate both forums.
The recent thread involved a user who had been banned from Nexus, who tried to open discussion here with several members who are moderators on both sites. We have instructed that person that the proper way for them to discuss his position with Nexus, is through Nexus' own channels for that - and not here. Or at least - not publicly.
I would like to know how the forum intends to implement the policy on 'Inclusion in the MTG Salvation Community'.
Edit: There's been a lot of flaming and snide remarks made by users on the very principles this policy is based upon and I'm tired of seeing our threads devolve just because somebody doesn't like seeing a Black women be the face of a Viking-inspired set.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
People will always state their complaints and opinions, some might agree or disagree with (and yea for some a black women (Kaya) in a viking set is an immersion breaking issue, some might see it as a positive, others dont, people are different in their opinions, which isnt an issue, its the entire point of any inclusion, that some will disagree).
When it derails is when people just keep pestering about it, and instead of putting a dot behind a statement people try to win and unwinnable argument to convince the other their argument is the one and only truth and find something to blame them they are wrong about (and it absolutely always derails in a way that either one calls the other a nazi [which is a grave insult btw] and then its just a game of blame shifting).
WotC entire thing produces this kind of arguments, you could even say they provoke this kind of responses intentionally.
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Whats undeniable true is that these little conversations would be better placed in their own bubble or private messages, instead of the thread itself.
Someone has to be able to say "I dont like that black women as the face of the viking set" , without somebody else directly claiming the guy must be a nazi.
Such a statement by no means disenfranchises actual black people from anything, it might even be a black girl making that statement, if they are actually into viking mythology.
Somebody likes something and others dislike other things, that will never be different, people want just forcefully all have the same opinions.
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When a post gets completely of topic (or any claim somebody is a "nazi" should be outright removed, its a massive fuel to catapult any discourse out of the window).
A good starting point would always be "Critique the argument, not the person" , then it stays arguable civilized ; the moment insults are thrown it provokes just more negative responses in anybody else.
(and it absolutely always derails in a way that either one calls the other a nazi [which is a grave insult btw] and then its just a game of blame shifting).
Sounds like something a nazi would say. (It's a joke, don't hurt me.)
In all seriousness, though, there's a short slate of people who regularly lead to threads devolving, and it would not be difficult to take those particular people out of the picture.
Let me repeat the general mod policy here, for your benefit: if something bothers you, report it and move on. Inclusion is a net positive for our community, even if the attempts are sometimes shallow. Ultimately, if an aspect of the game or the community is not actively taking something away from you on a personal level, just leave it alone and let others celebrate, yeah? The most recent thread is probably the best example of how / when / why to leave people alone; instead of the usual course of discourse here at MTGS (somebody posts something vaguely bigoted, others step in to educate), a few people chose to celebrate Wizards' decision vis-à-vis Niko, and another small handful of posters decided to interject and drag the conversation downward. Why was that necessary? What could that possibly accomplish, except to tarnish a possible bright spot for people who deserve representation? What did it cost you or anyone else to just leave it alone?
Someone has to be able to say "I dont like that black women as the face of the viking set" , without somebody else directly claiming the guy must be a nazi. Such a statement by no means disenfranchises actual black people from anything, it might even be a black girl making that statement, if they are actually into viking mythology.
No, they don't have to be able to say anything of the sort. It's a form of microaggression regardless of who it's coming from, and it's still maintains the underlying quality of promoting a power imbalance (i.e., racist).
Ultimately, if an aspect of the game or the community is not actively taking something away from you on a personal level, just leave it alone and let others celebrate, yeah?
The entire deal is people express their opinions and feelings about something in a thread, and that does not mean its ALWAYS positive.
If someone dislikes something they will tell so, and it can stand like that with a dot, without arguments, its their opinion, and thats it.
People get triggered by certain stuff, thats undeniable true, either side will then just keep arguing about a "problem" they made up themselves and try to change the opinion of the other person and convince them they are "right" ; but there is no right here, its just opinions and feelings of people, which can be accepted or discredited.
The most recent thread is probably the best example of how / when / why to leave people alone; instead of the usual course of discourse here at MTGS (somebody posts something vaguely bigoted, others step in to educate)
The "education" is already insulting to a degree, as it assumes somebody is right or wrong, thats simply not true, as people can and will always have a feeling or opinion and thats not right or wrong, its just their opinion or feeling and that can stand on its own.
Instead of going on a crusade of supposed "education" in the thread, its much more reasonable to use private messages to that person in private, and if they WANT to talk, you can educate them in person for weeks if you wish.
*To make that clear, to claim to educate a person that does not want to be educated is not education, its just trying to put your own opinion over theirs and assuming a position of superiority over them, which the natural reaction is defense and aggression, 100% counter productive.
If people try that "education" in a thread, it will absolutely always derail, as it inflames others to jump on the bandwagon and pick up the pitchfork, on either side you will then start a fire you cannot control anymore.
And the worst part, it "educates" absolutely nobody and has absolutely no point at all, as the persons will still have their opinion and feelings, might even be strengthened in them as they face opposition they can brand as the "enemy".
a few people chose to celebrate Wizards' decision vis-à-vis Niko, and another small handful of posters decided to interject and drag the conversation downward. Why was that necessary? What could that possibly accomplish, except to tarnish a possible bright spot for people who deserve representation? What did it cost you or anyone else to just leave it alone?
Thats outright censoring and echo chamber "celebration".
Instead of letting every voice get heard, you just want every possible "negative" argument (which is arguably not negative at all) to simply not be spoken, like it does not exist, which further bolsters the echo chamber issue.
Its totally fine if somebody makes a post that says "I dislike this or that" , thats ok, why should they not be allowed to say that ? Who exactly does it hurt anyway ?
You and anybody else can celebrate all they want, if a "grumpy" post does not go along, why is that an issue, its an opinion valid and worthy as any other post.
People like and dislike different things, and nobody should be shunned into a corner if you make any claim of "inclusion" , yes, you want to include even the grumpy people, as they are part of the community as anybody else is.
No, they don't have to be able to say anything of the sort. It's a form of microaggression regardless of who it's coming from, and it's still maintains the underlying quality of promoting a power imbalance (i.e., racist).
"Microaggression" is such a buzzword and it simply means people are incapable to deal with people that have different opinions as they do.
Thats the actual problem, let people speak their mind, and accept it (and dont bark about it like a enraged dog, it can just stand).
So the entire deal of this is, if a topic is controversial, its basically guaranteed to derail at some point, if people just keep quoting and talking to each other, what "should be" a private message exchange, they do so in the wrong thread.
And no "rule" will ever change that, people will always speak their mind, and most do so in a reasonable way, but they face outright hate against them as a response, so people go into a defensive mode right away.
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People are totally fine to dislike a black character in a viking world, if they assume a world of Scandinavian inspired gods (which the set absolutely is).
Someone said too in a world like Kamigawa you expect Asian looking people, its expectations, world building and immersion ; has absolutely nothing to do with racism, and making that claim alone, to instantly and always blame anybody to be racist is already insulting.
And to instantly jump on these people like they are the devil itself, its just pointless aggression.
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So, let people at least express their opinions and feelings (if they do so in a very obvious insulting way, thats a different story), as long as they are not off-topic and about the game, they should absolutely be valid, as thats valuable to share these opinions and it does not take away from anybody.
If people then want to argue with them, make sure private messages are the place for that, whatever they write there, is their issue then and does not effect anybody else then the two in discussion.
So, let people at least express their opinions and feelings (if they do so in a very obvious insulting way, thats a different story), as long as they are not off-topic and about the game, they should absolutely be valid, as thats valuable to share these opinions and it does not take away from anybody.
I think you've struck gold with this one, friend. The attitude, opinions, and beliefs frequently expressed by certain posters here are very obviously insulting, and we're actively telling you as much. Your best options are to let yourself grow as a person, or to keep those kinds of statements to yourself - or in private messages like you just advocated, I guess? I'm open to experimenting with your idea right now; please feel free to send me a PM rather than following up with another post in this thread.
In the mean time, celebrating inclusion in the Magic community is absolutely both valid and valuable, and does not take away from anybody. Perhaps you can see fit to follow your own advice and encourage others to just "let it stand."
Advocating to outright disallow people to state their opinions or feeling about the game should never be a thing on a website that deals with the game itself.
No statement is about actual real people and absolutely not excluding anybody or insulting anybody.
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Either side can state what they think and feel, and thats where it ends.
What you advocate is to only allow one side of the opinion spectrum be allowed and outright ban the other, and thats disgusting and destructive to any community.
Its very sad that some people are so encapsulated in their echo chambers that they are not even used to any dislike comment anymore, they take any form of critique as a personal attack, for whatever reason, and that as a result just erodes the will of people to state their opinions and that kind of censorship is not helpful for anything, its destructive in nature and grounded on the inability to accept other opinions (the irony is that some assume the superior position just by default, and get a rude awakening if the other is not crumbling before them, and such a mindset is simply disgusting and toxic).
"Let it stand" gets down to let people express their opinions and then go on ... not prevent people from expressing their opinion that counteracts your own, thats the definition of building a echo chamber.
Advocating to outright disallow people to state their opinions or feeling about the game should never be a thing on a website that deals with the game itself.
No statement is about actual real people and absolutely not excluding anybody or insulting anybody.
Bigoted opinions or feelings don't belong anywhere, up to and including this website. When people tell you "hey, I feel insulted," that should be the first hint that something insulting was said. To refuse to accept that representation, even in a game, can have a tangible effect in real life is outright denial.
Either side can state what they think and feel, and thats where it ends.
What you advocate is to only allow one side of the opinion spectrum be allowed and outright ban the other, and thats disgusting and destructive to any community.
As per the TOS and MTGS inclusion policy, I can certainly celebrate inclusion however I want. Bigoted language, on the other hand, is outright forbidden and does not fall under the purview of censorship. People have absolutely no right to bigoted language here.
"Let it stand" gets down to let people express their opinions and then go on ... not prevent people from expressing their opinion that counteracts your own, thats the definition of building a echo chamber.
If being educated here isn't your thing, perhaps you might be better off visiting a different website?
To assume "Bigoted opinions" if someone does not like Kaya in a viking world is wild.
To assume that a person that has that feeling about a set is just automatic fine to be called a Nazi is over the line wild.
Some just want to see the worst possible kind of idea in everything, as they have no understanding anymore what is a perfectly fine opinion and what crosses the line into actual "bigoted opinions".
If space ships suddenly appear in Lorwyn and blast the plane apart people would just make claims they dislike it, thats the same basis.
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If someone makes a claim to dislike something WotC is doing , to outright call that hate speech, discredits any "actual" hate speech.
To assume that just posting the feeling about a card (a Magic card, as this is a Magic forum) , some people go overboard and intentionally go ahead to assume the worst possible intention, as they are horny to produce an outrage over absolutely nothing.
The result of censoring any opinions and feelings is far worse than a community thats able to work their differences out in favor of the game.
As it is right now, the calls for censorship and moderation in favor of a unified mindset and not allowing any negative opinions about anything is harmful.
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I want to know what people think about new cards, all of it, everything and not judge them or scream them away from the forum if their opinion does not fit my own.
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"Bigoted language" against a person is one thing.
To favor or dislike the matter in a fantasy world is a entirely different topic.
In my fantasy world i can absolutely be "bigoted" if it hurts the immersion of the game world.
People might not want overly sexualized fantasy worlds or even think about the "gender preferences" of their fantasy heroes at any point in time, not everyone is into that at all, and its not even remotely the same as claiming bigoted views about actual real people, thats NOT the same and the ability to separate the game from real people is important.
It leads back to the very same topic of the "Mafia" game.
While you can have fictional murder and betrayal, you would not assume that the person playing that game would favor the same in the real world.
Its NOT the same, and its important to make that distinguishing, otherwise you mix the game world with the real world and threat it as the same (and if you do that, the entire point of a fantasy world goes out the window).
To assume "Bigoted opinions" if someone does not like Kaya in a viking world is wild.
To assume that a person that has that feeling about a set is just automatic fine to be called a Nazi is over the line wild.
It's not an assumption, it's a fact. We've told you as much.
Some just want to see the worst possible kind of idea in everything, as they have no understanding anymore what is a perfectly fine opinion and what crosses the line into actual "bigoted opinions".
People were celebrating inclusion, and others (including yourself) felt the need to come in and take the conversation down a peg. That is not necessarily the "worst possible kind of idea," but it's up there.
If space ships suddenly appear in Lorwyn and blast the plane apart people would just make claims they dislike it, thats the same basis.
Naked straw man. Space ships and aliens do not exist, BIPOC and LGBTQ+ people do.
If someone makes a claim to dislike something WotC is doing , to outright call that hate speech, discredits any "actual" hate speech.
The thing you dislike WotC doing is being inclusive, something which is inarguably a net positive. This is not an abstract philosophical concept; the fictional characters in Magic represent real life minority groups, so to disparage one - fictional or otherwise - is to disparage the other. Maybe you think you're only targeting WotC, but your comments have real consequences for real people. I know you'll disagree again, but you'll still be wrong.
To assume that just posting the feeling about a card (a Magic card, as this is a Magic forum) , some people go overboard and intentionally go ahead to assume the worst possible intention, as they are horny to produce an outrage over absolutely nothing.
Again, not an assumption. I can read your own words right in front of me, their meaning clear as day. If your position is "oh, that's what I said but I meant something else," then maybe your response should be to clarify your meaning rather than waxing defensive over otherwise indefensible language.
The result of censoring any opinions and feelings is far worse than a community thats able to work their differences out in favor of the game.
As it is right now, the calls for censorship and moderation in favor of a unified mindset and not allowing any negative opinions about anything is harmful.
We're not asking for a unified mindset, just one that excludes bigoted language. For someone so set on this forum being used to discuss Magic only, maybe you can lead by example and stop sharing your thoughts on this matter? I think that might go a long way toward removing harmful opinions, and not just specifically negatives ones.
I want to know what people think about new cards, all of it, everything and not judge them or scream them away from the forum if their opinion does not fit my own.
Yes! Go do that!
"Bigoted language" against a person is one thing.
To favor or dislike the matter in a fantasy world is a entirely different topic.
In my fantasy world i can absolutely be "bigoted" if it hurts the immersion of the game world.
People might not want overly sexualized fantasy worlds or even think about the "gender preferences" of their fantasy heroes at any point in time, not everyone is into that at all, and its not even remotely the same as claiming bigoted views about actual real people, thats NOT the same and the ability to separate the game from real people is important.
It says a lot about a person if they actively fantasize about being sexist and bigoted in their make-believe dream world. If only you could see the forest for the trees.
Lets make it clear.
I have the ability to make a difference between a fantasy game and the real world.
Some people arguably cannot make that distinguishing, which is just sad and will produce problems in their lives everywhere and for all eternity.
If you truly believe that you have to spread your real life politics into a fantasy game, then we argue entirely different positions.
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I would be interested what you qualify as "bigoted language" , as theres wild claims what actually qualifies as that.
And if the game itself pushes these issues into the game, discussing the very game itself contradicts that.
As no matter what, people have to be able to point their like or dislike for whatever the game is trying to do, and do so in a respectful manner.
I dont argue for direct insults as should be clear, but as said, its important to make a differentiation between the card game and actual real people.
(If someone wants murder in their games, they are totally fine to have that, its a fantasy game, and the inability to separate the game from the real world is painfully idiotic)
The result of censoring any opinions and feelings is far worse than a community thats able to work their differences out in favor of the game.
As it is right now, the calls for censorship and moderation in favor of a unified mindset and not allowing any negative opinions about anything is harmful.
MtGS is a private company and can do literally whatever they want in terms of limiting anyone's ability to express themself onsite.
Sure you can drag everything down in the dirt if you like to.
But then dont wonder that you got dirty in the process.
I would be more than happy to see much heavier moderation from MtGS staff. The main area in which I post here has a separate standard anyways, and comparably fewer moderation issues despite accounting for a large percentage of site traffic.
We have no plans to reopen Debate, and are not working towards any plans to reopen Debate. It was closed for many reasons, and as far as we can see, those reasons remain valid.
There are plenty of other sites specifically tailored to hosting those types of debates. I am not personally familiar with them, however a quick google search resulted in this Quora question, which has several answers. Might be a place to start. I have also found the various stack exchanges to be nice areas for discussion of a multitude of topics, they have a politics one, though I haven't frequented that one myself.
Now, this does not mean that we cannot one day reopen debate here on Salvation, however it would take a lot of work and dedication.
Now, there currently are no moderators willing to take up the mantle of a Debate forum, however there are plenty of moderator openings where someone could join the staff and get a feel of the process and experience, and then move on to other improvements. We are always looking for talented, calm, and rational individuals, especially those that have ideas and visions for improving the site.
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This would be the same for any other off topic forum (and even on-topic, though showing the common interest on those is easier). For example, if someone wanted to make a Yu-Gi-Oh forum, or an Anime forum, it would be the same idea.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Is this Flow speaking again trying to repeat what happened on MU?
The forum mafia community on MtGSalvation (and elsewhere) has addressed the use of the word "lynch" and taken steps to move away from it. This has become the standard across major forum mafia communities, with people using "execute", "eliminate", "kill", or "yeet", among others. There is not an active censorship of the word "lynch" for most communities because it would reap more negative results than positive. Not from people not being willing to change, but from change taking time.
Having been in an admin position in another forum mafia community for about two years now, we also brought up the change. And the same discussion happened in every other forum mafia community I've seen:
A small few forum mafia communities have still chosen to censor the word, but the more common forum mafia community consensus is one of encouraging other words instead of one of punishing people for using the word.
Additionally, while Shadowlancerx is a member of the MTGSalvation forum mafia community, he does not uniquely represent it. It is an active part of the site which as of most recent discussion, even prior to Shadowlancerx becoming an admin, there were no plans to remove from the site, despite past MTGSalvation admin history of hating on, bullying, and removing non-Magic sections and members involved in said sections. Unlike other admins, Shadow and bob are good people, not emblematic of the rampant bullying of site users, disgusting back-doors gossip, and admin-maintained drama for the sake of drama which has been the normal from MtGSalvation site admins for years. MTGSalvation as a site had become a dead whale since long before the site threatened to close. The previous group of admins realized this and left to make their own site, cutting off anyone who didn't want to switch over as unworthy. Leaving behind a skeleton crew to run things and knowing that the support of the Commander RC and similar sorts of little odds and ends would keep their site afloat rather than what was left of MTGSalvation. Shadowlancerx was asked to step up as a staff member who was prominent in one of the only groups still active on the site, the forum mafia community.
The MtGSalvation forum mafia community has already had offers from other forum mafia communities to join them elsewhere. I was one of several making that offer. The MTGSalvation forum mafia community, while it has had more history than the site itself, has always been a positive contribution even at its lowest moments.
In addition to running a mafia community, like mikeyG, I also used to moderate the Debate section here. There is no impression that MTGSalvation has an alt-right bias. There never has been. MtGSalvation has always been accused of being a liberal echo-chamber.
While this thread is not a replacement, a group of prominent MtGS Debate veterans have had a Discord replacement for a while now. Said Discord can be found here for any who are interested:
The Once and Future Debate
It's almost like when you shut down the non-Magic sections of a site and move the Magic discussion to another site which is even more draconian about non-Magic discussion than MTGSalvation was because it is representative of the people who run it, you get non-Magic discussion in other sections of the first site... Not sure why this would be a surprise.
Nah... You're confusing Debate with the Gutter because that's the propaganda that was pounded into all of our heads. It was never the same thing.
Yeah, it was over-moderated as a policy, particularly by admins and a couple of overbearing global moderators, who like the admins, went out of their way to maintain high levels of drama throughout their dealings.
The solid reason to shut it down at the time was that both of the moderators involved (myself and Blinking Spirit) had other commitments. I had school which was taking up more and more of my time, and Blinking Spirit had their own personal concerns. These were not the primary reason it was shut down, though. They weren't even the spark. The admins at the time had openly made clear for years that they wanted to shut down as many non-Magic sections as they could. It was convenient. A section shutdown had been on the table for months.
You can tell the behaviour in the section wasn't really the problem because the Debate regulars now participate in our own Discord, which necessitates a much lower level of moderation than the MtGS Debate section ever had.
The Once and Future Debate
bob, thank you for laying out the process. I am pleased to see you respond in a way that is somewhat helpful. I have quite a lot of other remarks that I have been mulling over with regard to you. For the time being, though, please forward the staff's list of concerns to me so that we may accurately characterize them in our proposal.
H3RAC71TU5, I would say that the biggest things to address would be why we should have a debate forum here, rather than a site better suited and dedicated to it; how to maintain a debate forum in a family and work friendly environment; and how to respond to bad actors and trolls, without expressing a personal bias, or implicating personal policy as site policy.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
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#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Are you seriously calling Bob a conservative Christian moderator that’s trying to silence liberal voices?
No longer staff here.
I wasn't referring to bob.
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#BLM
#DefundThePolice
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#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Bollocks
Feyd is a technical admin and mod here, and is also the primary tech and administrator of MTGNexus. The two sites are separate, and have differing policies, though our policies and approaches do overlap in some ways. We have a few members who moderate both forums.
The recent thread involved a user who had been banned from Nexus, who tried to open discussion here with several members who are moderators on both sites. We have instructed that person that the proper way for them to discuss his position with Nexus, is through Nexus' own channels for that - and not here. Or at least - not publicly.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Edit: There's been a lot of flaming and snide remarks made by users on the very principles this policy is based upon and I'm tired of seeing our threads devolve just because somebody doesn't like seeing a Black women be the face of a Viking-inspired set.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
When it derails is when people just keep pestering about it, and instead of putting a dot behind a statement people try to win and unwinnable argument to convince the other their argument is the one and only truth and find something to blame them they are wrong about (and it absolutely always derails in a way that either one calls the other a nazi [which is a grave insult btw] and then its just a game of blame shifting).
WotC entire thing produces this kind of arguments, you could even say they provoke this kind of responses intentionally.
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Whats undeniable true is that these little conversations would be better placed in their own bubble or private messages, instead of the thread itself.
Someone has to be able to say "I dont like that black women as the face of the viking set" , without somebody else directly claiming the guy must be a nazi.
Such a statement by no means disenfranchises actual black people from anything, it might even be a black girl making that statement, if they are actually into viking mythology.
Somebody likes something and others dislike other things, that will never be different, people want just forcefully all have the same opinions.
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When a post gets completely of topic (or any claim somebody is a "nazi" should be outright removed, its a massive fuel to catapult any discourse out of the window).
A good starting point would always be "Critique the argument, not the person" , then it stays arguable civilized ; the moment insults are thrown it provokes just more negative responses in anybody else.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Sounds like something a nazi would say. (It's a joke, don't hurt me.)
In all seriousness, though, there's a short slate of people who regularly lead to threads devolving, and it would not be difficult to take those particular people out of the picture.
Let me repeat the general mod policy here, for your benefit: if something bothers you, report it and move on. Inclusion is a net positive for our community, even if the attempts are sometimes shallow. Ultimately, if an aspect of the game or the community is not actively taking something away from you on a personal level, just leave it alone and let others celebrate, yeah? The most recent thread is probably the best example of how / when / why to leave people alone; instead of the usual course of discourse here at MTGS (somebody posts something vaguely bigoted, others step in to educate), a few people chose to celebrate Wizards' decision vis-à-vis Niko, and another small handful of posters decided to interject and drag the conversation downward. Why was that necessary? What could that possibly accomplish, except to tarnish a possible bright spot for people who deserve representation? What did it cost you or anyone else to just leave it alone?
No, they don't have to be able to say anything of the sort. It's a form of microaggression regardless of who it's coming from, and it's still maintains the underlying quality of promoting a power imbalance (i.e., racist).
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#DefundThePolice
The entire deal is people express their opinions and feelings about something in a thread, and that does not mean its ALWAYS positive.
If someone dislikes something they will tell so, and it can stand like that with a dot, without arguments, its their opinion, and thats it.
People get triggered by certain stuff, thats undeniable true, either side will then just keep arguing about a "problem" they made up themselves and try to change the opinion of the other person and convince them they are "right" ; but there is no right here, its just opinions and feelings of people, which can be accepted or discredited.
The "education" is already insulting to a degree, as it assumes somebody is right or wrong, thats simply not true, as people can and will always have a feeling or opinion and thats not right or wrong, its just their opinion or feeling and that can stand on its own.
Instead of going on a crusade of supposed "education" in the thread, its much more reasonable to use private messages to that person in private, and if they WANT to talk, you can educate them in person for weeks if you wish.
*To make that clear, to claim to educate a person that does not want to be educated is not education, its just trying to put your own opinion over theirs and assuming a position of superiority over them, which the natural reaction is defense and aggression, 100% counter productive.
If people try that "education" in a thread, it will absolutely always derail, as it inflames others to jump on the bandwagon and pick up the pitchfork, on either side you will then start a fire you cannot control anymore.
And the worst part, it "educates" absolutely nobody and has absolutely no point at all, as the persons will still have their opinion and feelings, might even be strengthened in them as they face opposition they can brand as the "enemy".
Thats outright censoring and echo chamber "celebration".
Instead of letting every voice get heard, you just want every possible "negative" argument (which is arguably not negative at all) to simply not be spoken, like it does not exist, which further bolsters the echo chamber issue.
Its totally fine if somebody makes a post that says "I dislike this or that" , thats ok, why should they not be allowed to say that ? Who exactly does it hurt anyway ?
You and anybody else can celebrate all they want, if a "grumpy" post does not go along, why is that an issue, its an opinion valid and worthy as any other post.
People like and dislike different things, and nobody should be shunned into a corner if you make any claim of "inclusion" , yes, you want to include even the grumpy people, as they are part of the community as anybody else is.
"Microaggression" is such a buzzword and it simply means people are incapable to deal with people that have different opinions as they do.
Thats the actual problem, let people speak their mind, and accept it (and dont bark about it like a enraged dog, it can just stand).
So the entire deal of this is, if a topic is controversial, its basically guaranteed to derail at some point, if people just keep quoting and talking to each other, what "should be" a private message exchange, they do so in the wrong thread.
And no "rule" will ever change that, people will always speak their mind, and most do so in a reasonable way, but they face outright hate against them as a response, so people go into a defensive mode right away.
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People are totally fine to dislike a black character in a viking world, if they assume a world of Scandinavian inspired gods (which the set absolutely is).
Someone said too in a world like Kamigawa you expect Asian looking people, its expectations, world building and immersion ; has absolutely nothing to do with racism, and making that claim alone, to instantly and always blame anybody to be racist is already insulting.
And to instantly jump on these people like they are the devil itself, its just pointless aggression.
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So, let people at least express their opinions and feelings (if they do so in a very obvious insulting way, thats a different story), as long as they are not off-topic and about the game, they should absolutely be valid, as thats valuable to share these opinions and it does not take away from anybody.
If people then want to argue with them, make sure private messages are the place for that, whatever they write there, is their issue then and does not effect anybody else then the two in discussion.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
I think you've struck gold with this one, friend. The attitude, opinions, and beliefs frequently expressed by certain posters here are very obviously insulting, and we're actively telling you as much. Your best options are to let yourself grow as a person, or to keep those kinds of statements to yourself - or in private messages like you just advocated, I guess? I'm open to experimenting with your idea right now; please feel free to send me a PM rather than following up with another post in this thread.
In the mean time, celebrating inclusion in the Magic community is absolutely both valid and valuable, and does not take away from anybody. Perhaps you can see fit to follow your own advice and encourage others to just "let it stand."
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Advocating to outright disallow people to state their opinions or feeling about the game should never be a thing on a website that deals with the game itself.
No statement is about actual real people and absolutely not excluding anybody or insulting anybody.
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Either side can state what they think and feel, and thats where it ends.
What you advocate is to only allow one side of the opinion spectrum be allowed and outright ban the other, and thats disgusting and destructive to any community.
Its very sad that some people are so encapsulated in their echo chambers that they are not even used to any dislike comment anymore, they take any form of critique as a personal attack, for whatever reason, and that as a result just erodes the will of people to state their opinions and that kind of censorship is not helpful for anything, its destructive in nature and grounded on the inability to accept other opinions (the irony is that some assume the superior position just by default, and get a rude awakening if the other is not crumbling before them, and such a mindset is simply disgusting and toxic).
"Let it stand" gets down to let people express their opinions and then go on ... not prevent people from expressing their opinion that counteracts your own, thats the definition of building a echo chamber.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Bigoted opinions or feelings don't belong anywhere, up to and including this website. When people tell you "hey, I feel insulted," that should be the first hint that something insulting was said. To refuse to accept that representation, even in a game, can have a tangible effect in real life is outright denial.
As per the TOS and MTGS inclusion policy, I can certainly celebrate inclusion however I want. Bigoted language, on the other hand, is outright forbidden and does not fall under the purview of censorship. People have absolutely no right to bigoted language here.
If being educated here isn't your thing, perhaps you might be better off visiting a different website?
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To assume that a person that has that feeling about a set is just automatic fine to be called a Nazi is over the line wild.
Some just want to see the worst possible kind of idea in everything, as they have no understanding anymore what is a perfectly fine opinion and what crosses the line into actual "bigoted opinions".
If space ships suddenly appear in Lorwyn and blast the plane apart people would just make claims they dislike it, thats the same basis.
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If someone makes a claim to dislike something WotC is doing , to outright call that hate speech, discredits any "actual" hate speech.
To assume that just posting the feeling about a card (a Magic card, as this is a Magic forum) , some people go overboard and intentionally go ahead to assume the worst possible intention, as they are horny to produce an outrage over absolutely nothing.
The result of censoring any opinions and feelings is far worse than a community thats able to work their differences out in favor of the game.
As it is right now, the calls for censorship and moderation in favor of a unified mindset and not allowing any negative opinions about anything is harmful.
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I want to know what people think about new cards, all of it, everything and not judge them or scream them away from the forum if their opinion does not fit my own.
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"Bigoted language" against a person is one thing.
To favor or dislike the matter in a fantasy world is a entirely different topic.
In my fantasy world i can absolutely be "bigoted" if it hurts the immersion of the game world.
People might not want overly sexualized fantasy worlds or even think about the "gender preferences" of their fantasy heroes at any point in time, not everyone is into that at all, and its not even remotely the same as claiming bigoted views about actual real people, thats NOT the same and the ability to separate the game from real people is important.
It leads back to the very same topic of the "Mafia" game.
While you can have fictional murder and betrayal, you would not assume that the person playing that game would favor the same in the real world.
Its NOT the same, and its important to make that distinguishing, otherwise you mix the game world with the real world and threat it as the same (and if you do that, the entire point of a fantasy world goes out the window).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
It's not an assumption, it's a fact. We've told you as much.
People were celebrating inclusion, and others (including yourself) felt the need to come in and take the conversation down a peg. That is not necessarily the "worst possible kind of idea," but it's up there.
Naked straw man. Space ships and aliens do not exist, BIPOC and LGBTQ+ people do.
The thing you dislike WotC doing is being inclusive, something which is inarguably a net positive. This is not an abstract philosophical concept; the fictional characters in Magic represent real life minority groups, so to disparage one - fictional or otherwise - is to disparage the other. Maybe you think you're only targeting WotC, but your comments have real consequences for real people. I know you'll disagree again, but you'll still be wrong.
Again, not an assumption. I can read your own words right in front of me, their meaning clear as day. If your position is "oh, that's what I said but I meant something else," then maybe your response should be to clarify your meaning rather than waxing defensive over otherwise indefensible language.
We're not asking for a unified mindset, just one that excludes bigoted language. For someone so set on this forum being used to discuss Magic only, maybe you can lead by example and stop sharing your thoughts on this matter? I think that might go a long way toward removing harmful opinions, and not just specifically negatives ones.
Yes! Go do that!
It says a lot about a person if they actively fantasize about being sexist and bigoted in their make-believe dream world. If only you could see the forest for the trees.
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I have the ability to make a difference between a fantasy game and the real world.
Some people arguably cannot make that distinguishing, which is just sad and will produce problems in their lives everywhere and for all eternity.
If you truly believe that you have to spread your real life politics into a fantasy game, then we argue entirely different positions.
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I would be interested what you qualify as "bigoted language" , as theres wild claims what actually qualifies as that.
And if the game itself pushes these issues into the game, discussing the very game itself contradicts that.
As no matter what, people have to be able to point their like or dislike for whatever the game is trying to do, and do so in a respectful manner.
I dont argue for direct insults as should be clear, but as said, its important to make a differentiation between the card game and actual real people.
(If someone wants murder in their games, they are totally fine to have that, its a fantasy game, and the inability to separate the game from the real world is painfully idiotic)
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
When you say censorship as if it's a big deal...
MtGS is a private company and can do literally whatever they want in terms of limiting anyone's ability to express themself onsite.
Sure you can drag everything down in the dirt if you like to.
But then dont wonder that you got dirty in the process.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
I would be more than happy to see much heavier moderation from MtGS staff. The main area in which I post here has a separate standard anyways, and comparably fewer moderation issues despite accounting for a large percentage of site traffic.