I have had Garza Zol, Plague Queen built for over a year as my Tribal deck. I had built it to give me a less "tuned" deck that was just fun to play and tribal made sense. My choices were Zombies and Vampires and I ended up going the route of Vampires for a number of reasons. The main one was that my cousin had Zombies and I didn't want to just copy his deck.
Garza Zol has been working well for a tribal deck, but my latest changes to include more counter magic led me away from Vampire creatures. In the end, I ended up with about 25 Vampires including the general. The is low for a deck meant to be creature heavy around a specific tribe. This meant it wasn't as "tribal" focused as I wanted it to be (if that makes sense).
The other thing that led me to re-evaluating the deck list is that 5 of my 8 decks are blue. Blue is one of my favorite colors in EDH but to always be playing blue meant there was just too much overlap between the decks and they played too similarly.
With this in mind, and will all the new white Vampires that have been released in Ixalan and the C17 decks, I decided to re-tool this deck into a Mardu deck helmed by Edgar Markov. Edgar is powerful and makes a bunch of my other Vampires even better because he spits out tokens at a good rate. Here is the new list:
The first thing to notice is that this has around 30-35 creatures. This means the creature density is higher than Garza Zol was which makes it (hopefully) more aggressive. I also added a couple Vampires that are lower on the curve. Specifically, Viscera Seer and Indulgent Aristocrat seem much better in this deck due to the sheer amount of tokens that Edgar makes.
The white addition also gives me the 3 B/W Sorin planeswalkers (though I am only running 2 of them) as well as some cool Vampires like the new Elenda. the Dusk Rose and Vona, Butcher of Magan from Ixalan. My removal suite is also a bit more geared towards spot removal with Path and Swords. Wrath of God and Austere Command give me additional Wraths to help clear the board if I am way behind.
So, because of my conversion from Garza Zol to Edgar, I lose the countermagic to help deal with various threats but I gain a more aggressive strategy that means I am hopefully the person that needs to be answered rather than trying to sit back and counter or deal with other threats. Other than Gisela, I don't actually have an aggressive deck. Most of my decks are a bit more midrange or control oriented so it will be nice to be able to pull out a deck where the main strategy (and often the right play) is to just turn creatures sideways.
After having played Edgar for a good while, most players lower the curve of the vampires because Edgar specifically has built in enablers that give more benefit to cheap vampires and anthems. I started my list off with a bunch of good standalone vamps and soon after moved to a much faster / cheaper list because there is so much benefit in the cheap vampires.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I get that feeling just from initial testing (I haven't actually played the deck yet; I will tonight though). I have only 17 cards above 4 CMC so the curve seems reasonably low. Of the higher cost creatures, these are the ones I could conceivably see cutting:
Skeletal Vampire - I think this card is much worse in this build than it was in Garza Zol. It is much slower and the bat tokens are less relevant because of the tokens Edgar makes.
Thief of Blood - This is in here mostly to be a way to deal with planeswalkers. I had Dark Depths at one point that this worked well with but I cut that. I think this card is relevant in a lot of situations though so it would be hard to cut.
Sorin, Grim Nemesis - At 6 mana, this is slow and with some of the potential additions below, his abilities become less relevant to the game as a whole. By the time I have 6 mana, I am better off doing something else.
Ascendant Evincar - Global Anthem effects are decent, especially with the number of tokens I am creating, but at 6 mana and the potential to pump up my opponents creatures means I don't know if it is all that great. It also makes Skullclamp worse.
Necropolis Regent - This would be solely to cut the curve down. I think this is a great card, but with all the small vampires that are potentially going to get through, it seems there is a possibility this becomes less impactful to the game.
Anowon, the Ruin Sage - Having each player sacrifice their worst creature every turn becomes less relevant when I am trying to swarm everyone. Even in Garza Zol this never really panned out either so this would be a fairly easy cut.
Nirkana Revenant - I am not sure on this. Doubling my mana is great but with a lower curve it becomes less useful as I am trying to go as fast as possible so by turn 6 I am not sure what I am going to still be wanting to ramp into.
Austere Command - This is my nuclear option, but I have consistently had a problem trying to fit it into decks due to the high cost. I like being able to deal with my opponents' stuff and leave at least some of my stuff alive (hopefully).
The main problem with trying to lower the curve any further is trying to find replacements for the cards above. I think I have included all the best low cost Vampires so what other options are there to lower the curve further while also including good Vampires? After looking through Vampires that are CMC 3 or less, as well as some other noncreature cards, these are the ones I am missing:
Bloodghast - Not a huge fan. It easily comes back, but it isn't cast so it doesn't work as well with Edgar.
Blood Artist - This is great. I hadn't included it with Garza because of the low creature count but with Edgar this card seems insane. I should find a spot for it.
Blood Seeker - Not sure on this one. Having opponents lose 1 life for each creature is very low impact.
Bloodcrazed Paladin - If I sac all my stuff or everything gets wrathed, it gives me a way to get a large creature at Instant Timing.
Bloodthrone Vampire - Just a sac outlet to work with Blood Artist and all the tokens.
Tithe Drinker - This is a way to make opponents lose life and gives me a way to gain more life. Not sure it is great, but it is cheap and it is another way to gain life and make my opponents lose life outside combat.
Yahenni, Undying Partisan - Another sac outlet that can survive a number of scenarios and also grows larger as the game goes on.
Patriarch's Bidding - This is a great way to get all my Vampires back as needed.
Skullclamp - With the sheer amount of tokens being created, there is not reason not to run this card to help keep my hand full.
So, with the ISBPathfinder's comment and my review of lower cost Vampires, I think there is sufficient reason to adjust the deck with these changes initially:
Yea, just experiment with it and keep moving the list until you like how it plays. If you haven't played the list yet I wont give too many suggestions yet but I do like the changes you are looking at above.
Random side note... Yawgmoth's Will is decent recursion too given that you get the on cast portion of Edgar so you get tokens off of recovering with it.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I like Yawg's Will if for no other reason than to play it. I picked up a Judge Foil a few months back and never really found a place for it. You might be right that this is the deck that wants it. Thanks for the suggestions
I played this deck last night a couple of times and it worked well except for a small issue with card draw in the first game. I was without cards in hand for a fairly long time which ultimately ended up with me losing the game. It was still pretty close though.
In another game, I had all the cards I could want thanks to Champion of Dusk. This card is awesome in this deck and at one point I was able to keep looping it by sacrificing it to Viscera Seer and then putting it back on top with Volrath's Stronghold. This helped get me through some land clumps and gave me more gas to continue the game.
I also believe Nirkana Revenant is not needed in this deck. I only got her down in one game and she ate a removal spell pretty quickly. Even then, I never actually needed her to give me more mana. I was able to cast my stuff without her and keep everything moving. I am pretty sure she is a bit superfluous in the deck due to the low curve (and her being 6 on her own) so I am just going to swap her with Yawgmoth's Will to try out ISBPathfinder's suggestion.
At one point in one game my graveyard was filled with creatures due to them dying or getting milled. At the time, my only out to the game was Patriarch's Bidding. I never got it and I lost, but it got me thinking of other cards like that. One guy who plays Meren of Clan Nel Toth plays Living Death in his deck and it is almost always at lease a decent play to wrath the board. I have gotten blown out by it a couple times and with the amount of creatures in this deck, it seems like it could be a decent addition for a late game play to get me back into the game if needed.
I am going to try to slot this into the deck in place of Sorin Markov. This is for two reasons: 1) Sorin is already a feel bad card. To get set from 40 to 10 kind of sucks. Sorin does have legitimate uses against "infinite" life but so does Commander Damage. And 2) he is high on the curve and only drains for 2 if not using his minus ability. I like him because he is flavorful since he is a vampire and a Markov, but I may end up not running any of the Sorin Planeswalkers. I don't know that I am really that impressed with any of them.
As a small note: I am not sure if I need it, but if card draw is legitimately an issue, I may add in Mind's Eye and/or Enlightened Tutor (which gets me Mind's Eye and Skullclamp). I am not sure I am there yet, but it is something I am thinking of.
After a bit more goldfishing and some more thoughts on the card draw, I realized Arguel's Blood Fast seems decent for the deck. It comes down early and allows me a little room to keep my hand full. I don't expect to transform it, but as Diamond Valley is my favorite eland in the game, I wouldn't mind it if I could manage to transform it.
This is a somewhat worse version of Erebos, God of the Dead and Greed but I don't want Erebos and Greed is slower. So, I figured I would find a slot for it. In this case, I decided to cut Austere Command as being slow and unnecessary. If I find out later that I am getting wrecked by artifacts and enchantments, I can add it back in, but I should have enough creature wraths otherwise.
Another card that I am not sure is needed is Liliana of the Dark Realms. I almost never got to her ultimate in the last iteration of the deck and I am not sure I need to in this deck. I also don't think spending 4 mana to get a land is worth it. Hopefully my other card draw can ensure I don't miss land drops.
In its place, I have decided to add Enlightened Tutor as mentioned above. This gives me access to ramp (getting a number of artifacts), card draw (Blood Fast and Skullclamp), or recursion (Phyrexian Reclamation). I can potentially see this being cut again as there aren't a lot of great choices but the choices I do have are pretty good and can be game changing.
The last card I really want to find a replacement for is Sorin, Solemn Visitor. I am also starting to look closer at Vona, Butcher of Magan. The ability is great, but the cost of 7 life and the "your turn" restriction are very limiting. I want to replace these with other vampires though as I don't want to stray too far from a creature heavy build.
I run 15 one drops and 12 two drops . There is nothing wrong with a low curve.
@WizardMN - I think he was asking for my list (I only think that because I got a notification from this thread that he replied to my comment). Sorry to disrupt your thread with me posting a link to my list.
I guess I will ask how has Arguel's Blood Fast been for you? It seems like a little bit of a strange inclusion to me given that Greed is equal cost by the second card you draw. I love the flip side of blood fast but they just made that incredibly hard to achieve for commander.
Not a problem. That honestly makes more sense, but I had a couple comments above theirs so I didn't make the connection. It is still useful to see other lists to compare and I know yours has a lot more 1 and 2 drops so it might fit in better for what Frank_Glascock is trying to do.
So far, Blood Fast has been decent. It isn't stellar, but it gets the job done and I like it. I like that it comes down early and it has helped with getting more Vampires or lands if I am missing either one. I know Greed is "better" but if I don't have 4 mana yet, it means it could sit in my hand while I linger at 2 or 3 lands. The ability to transform is a bonus but I don't ever expect it to happen.
I haven't gotten to play it a lot though so I might find that I really should just make it Greed despite the higher initial cost. I will have to see how it plays out and how often it truly helps me in the early game.
Based on suggestions from ISBPathfinder as well as their list, I have decided try to lower the curve and try to increase the number of vampires in the deck. A lot of cards I had in the deck were holdovers from my previous deck and I think with a focus on a lower curve and trying to swarm the board, I can afford to cut some noncreature cards. This list of changes is very long:
CUTS
Chromatic Lantern & Mana Crypt & Orzhov Signet & Sol Ring & Talisman of Indulgence- With the lower curve, I don't think it is necessary for artifact ramp any more. While they help me get to Edgar sooner, I really want to spend my turns getting a critical mass of Vampires first. It may slow the deck down a little but I think it is worth it to make more room for creatures.
Painful Truths & Read the Bones - I have never really liked these cards anyway and with Blood Fast, Skullclamp, and Wheels I don't think they are truly necessary.
Sorin, Solemn Visitor - All Sorins seem underwhelming in the deck and I have decided to finally cut this one. His Lifelink is nice, but I don't think it is great. If I feel it is needed, I may just add in Whip of Erebos as I am really liking it in my Zombie deck.
Vona, Butcher of Magan - Sorcery Timing (essentially) removal is not that great and paying 7 life to do it is a far higher cost than I want to be paying in this deck. Hopefully the deck can go fast enough where the loss of this removal is mitigated.
Wrath of God - This kind of falls into the reason for cutting Vona plus I already have a fair number of removal spells. I don't think this is really needed.
Vampire Nocturnus - This card is on the edge of being good but in a 3 color deck and enough non black cards, I often find it doesn't do anything. I would rather have something cheaper that gets me tokens with Edgar
ADDITIONS
I am not totally sold on all of these, but they are the best 1 and 2 drop Vampires I could find that I was not already running. Most are being included because they are cheap and have a relevant ability. I don't really want to go through all of the cards to explain why I included them so hopefully they are self explanatory.
Garza Zol has been working well for a tribal deck, but my latest changes to include more counter magic led me away from Vampire creatures. In the end, I ended up with about 25 Vampires including the general. The is low for a deck meant to be creature heavy around a specific tribe. This meant it wasn't as "tribal" focused as I wanted it to be (if that makes sense).
The other thing that led me to re-evaluating the deck list is that 5 of my 8 decks are blue. Blue is one of my favorite colors in EDH but to always be playing blue meant there was just too much overlap between the decks and they played too similarly.
With this in mind, and will all the new white Vampires that have been released in Ixalan and the C17 decks, I decided to re-tool this deck into a Mardu deck helmed by Edgar Markov. Edgar is powerful and makes a bunch of my other Vampires even better because he spits out tokens at a good rate. Here is the new list:
1 Edgar Markov
Lands
1 Arid Mesa
1 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Command Tower
1 Crypt of Agadeem
1 Diamond Valley
1 Godless Shrine
1 Mana Confluence
1 Marsh Flats
3 Mountain
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Scrubland
1 Smoldering Marsh
9 Swamp
1 Unclaimed Territory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Winding Canyons
Enchantments
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
1 Ascendant Evincar
1 Bishop of Rebirth
1 Blood Artist
1 Blood Seeker
1 Bloodcrazed Paladin
1 Bloodflow Connoisseur
1 Bloodghast
1 Bloodline Keeper
1 Burnished Hart
1 Butcher of Malakir
1 Captivating Vampire
1 Champion of Dusk
1 Dark Impostor
1 Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
1 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
1 Dusk Legion Zealot
1 Elenda, the Dusk Rose
1 Falkenrath Aristocrat
1 Forerunner of the Legion
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Gifted Aetherborn
1 Guul Draz Assassin
1 Indulgent Aristocrat
1 Kalastria Highborn
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Legion Lieutenant
1 Malakir Bloodwitch
1 Mathas, Fiend Seeker
1 Mavren Fein, Dusk Apostle
1 Olivia Voldaren
1 Paladin of Atonement
1 Patron of the Vein
1 Sanctum Seeker
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Stromkirk Captain
1 Thief of Blood
1 Tithe Drinker
1 Twilight Prophet
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Viscera Seer
1 Voldaren Pariah
1 Yahenni, Undying Partisan
1 Damnation
1 Living Death
1 Patriarch's Bidding
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Yawgmoth's Will
Artifacts
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Skullclamp
1 Sword of the Animist
Instants
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Orim's Thunder
1 Path to Exile
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vampiric Tutor
The first thing to notice is that this has around 30-35 creatures. This means the creature density is higher than Garza Zol was which makes it (hopefully) more aggressive. I also added a couple Vampires that are lower on the curve. Specifically, Viscera Seer and Indulgent Aristocrat seem much better in this deck due to the sheer amount of tokens that Edgar makes.
The white addition also gives me the 3 B/W Sorin planeswalkers (though I am only running 2 of them) as well as some cool Vampires like the new Elenda. the Dusk Rose and Vona, Butcher of Magan from Ixalan. My removal suite is also a bit more geared towards spot removal with Path and Swords. Wrath of God and Austere Command give me additional Wraths to help clear the board if I am way behind.
So, because of my conversion from Garza Zol to Edgar, I lose the countermagic to help deal with various threats but I gain a more aggressive strategy that means I am hopefully the person that needs to be answered rather than trying to sit back and counter or deal with other threats. Other than Gisela, I don't actually have an aggressive deck. Most of my decks are a bit more midrange or control oriented so it will be nice to be able to pull out a deck where the main strategy (and often the right play) is to just turn creatures sideways.
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[Modern] Allies
The main problem with trying to lower the curve any further is trying to find replacements for the cards above. I think I have included all the best low cost Vampires so what other options are there to lower the curve further while also including good Vampires? After looking through Vampires that are CMC 3 or less, as well as some other noncreature cards, these are the ones I am missing:
So, with the ISBPathfinder's comment and my review of lower cost Vampires, I think there is sufficient reason to adjust the deck with these changes initially:
CUTS
Anowon, the Ruin Sage
Skeletal Vampire
Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Necropolis Regent
ADDITIONS
Skullclamp
Blood Artist
Yahenni, Undying Partisan
Patriarch's Bidding
Random side note... Yawgmoth's Will is decent recursion too given that you get the on cast portion of Edgar so you get tokens off of recovering with it.
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[Modern] Allies
In another game, I had all the cards I could want thanks to Champion of Dusk. This card is awesome in this deck and at one point I was able to keep looping it by sacrificing it to Viscera Seer and then putting it back on top with Volrath's Stronghold. This helped get me through some land clumps and gave me more gas to continue the game.
I also believe Nirkana Revenant is not needed in this deck. I only got her down in one game and she ate a removal spell pretty quickly. Even then, I never actually needed her to give me more mana. I was able to cast my stuff without her and keep everything moving. I am pretty sure she is a bit superfluous in the deck due to the low curve (and her being 6 on her own) so I am just going to swap her with Yawgmoth's Will to try out ISBPathfinder's suggestion.
At one point in one game my graveyard was filled with creatures due to them dying or getting milled. At the time, my only out to the game was Patriarch's Bidding. I never got it and I lost, but it got me thinking of other cards like that. One guy who plays Meren of Clan Nel Toth plays Living Death in his deck and it is almost always at lease a decent play to wrath the board. I have gotten blown out by it a couple times and with the amount of creatures in this deck, it seems like it could be a decent addition for a late game play to get me back into the game if needed.
I am going to try to slot this into the deck in place of Sorin Markov. This is for two reasons: 1) Sorin is already a feel bad card. To get set from 40 to 10 kind of sucks. Sorin does have legitimate uses against "infinite" life but so does Commander Damage. And 2) he is high on the curve and only drains for 2 if not using his minus ability. I like him because he is flavorful since he is a vampire and a Markov, but I may end up not running any of the Sorin Planeswalkers. I don't know that I am really that impressed with any of them.
As a small note: I am not sure if I need it, but if card draw is legitimately an issue, I may add in Mind's Eye and/or Enlightened Tutor (which gets me Mind's Eye and Skullclamp). I am not sure I am there yet, but it is something I am thinking of.
So, for now, my changes will be:
ADDS
Yawgmoth's Will
Living Death
CUTS
Sorin Markov
Nirkana Revenant
This is a somewhat worse version of Erebos, God of the Dead and Greed but I don't want Erebos and Greed is slower. So, I figured I would find a slot for it. In this case, I decided to cut Austere Command as being slow and unnecessary. If I find out later that I am getting wrecked by artifacts and enchantments, I can add it back in, but I should have enough creature wraths otherwise.
Another card that I am not sure is needed is Liliana of the Dark Realms. I almost never got to her ultimate in the last iteration of the deck and I am not sure I need to in this deck. I also don't think spending 4 mana to get a land is worth it. Hopefully my other card draw can ensure I don't miss land drops.
In its place, I have decided to add Enlightened Tutor as mentioned above. This gives me access to ramp (getting a number of artifacts), card draw (Blood Fast and Skullclamp), or recursion (Phyrexian Reclamation). I can potentially see this being cut again as there aren't a lot of great choices but the choices I do have are pretty good and can be game changing.
The last card I really want to find a replacement for is Sorin, Solemn Visitor. I am also starting to look closer at Vona, Butcher of Magan. The ability is great, but the cost of 7 life and the "your turn" restriction are very limiting. I want to replace these with other vampires though as I don't want to stray too far from a creature heavy build.
For now, here are the changes:
ADDS
Arguel's Blood Fast
Enlightened Tutor
CUTS
Austere Command
Liliana of the Dark Realms
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/783225-edgar-markov-low-mana-curve-build
I run 15 one drops and 12 two drops . There is nothing wrong with a low curve.
@WizardMN - I think he was asking for my list (I only think that because I got a notification from this thread that he replied to my comment). Sorry to disrupt your thread with me posting a link to my list.
I guess I will ask how has Arguel's Blood Fast been for you? It seems like a little bit of a strange inclusion to me given that Greed is equal cost by the second card you draw. I love the flip side of blood fast but they just made that incredibly hard to achieve for commander.
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[Modern] Allies
So far, Blood Fast has been decent. It isn't stellar, but it gets the job done and I like it. I like that it comes down early and it has helped with getting more Vampires or lands if I am missing either one. I know Greed is "better" but if I don't have 4 mana yet, it means it could sit in my hand while I linger at 2 or 3 lands. The ability to transform is a bonus but I don't ever expect it to happen.
I haven't gotten to play it a lot though so I might find that I really should just make it Greed despite the higher initial cost. I will have to see how it plays out and how often it truly helps me in the early game.
CUTS
I am not totally sold on all of these, but they are the best 1 and 2 drop Vampires I could find that I was not already running. Most are being included because they are cheap and have a relevant ability. I don't really want to go through all of the cards to explain why I included them so hopefully they are self explanatory.