i think the idea that a deceptive policy is fine in the discussion phases as long as it is not implemented is only true to a point. say a moderator suggests a secret rule where members that annoy the staff should be retroactively infracted and banned. now that policy may not be implemented but i would sure hope that moderator would be held accountable for even suggesting such a thing.
This. And no, they are not hold accountable. In fact, that would be the source of a lot of anger for me, if I hadn't learned to not get angry about privately owned forums about games of magical cards.
i think the idea that a deceptive policy is fine in the discussion phases as long as it is not implemented is only true to a point. say a moderator suggests a secret rule where members that annoy the staff should be retroactively infracted and banned. now that policy may not be implemented but i would sure hope that moderator would be held accountable for even suggesting such a thing.
I'd agree, although not because its unconscionable, but because should it ever come out, the results (even if never actually implemented) would leave doubt in the minds of everyone who knew.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
I'd agree, although not because its unconscionable, but because should it ever come out, the results (even if never actually implemented) would leave doubt in the minds of everyone who knew.
Stalin thought the same thing during the Great Purge.
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"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
Stalin thought the same thing during the Great Purge.
He also actually carried it out, and went about systematically killing (banning?) anyone who knew about the fact that he was killing anyone who knew about said set of actions.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
I'd agree, although not because its unconscionable, but because should it ever come out, the results (even if never actually implemented) would leave doubt in the minds of everyone who knew.
hi, in adult world, HACKING IS A PUNISHABLE OFFENSE. THAT IS WHY LULSEC WAS ARRESTED.
look it up.
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Randall 0705 - 2219 - 6000 and my pokemon safari is water, Azumarill Bibarel and Floatzel
Quote from "Megiddo" »
i like banning people because it makes people I don't like go away
And I think that the mod that suggested that did something dumb. I don't think they should be demodded because of it.
I never recommended demodding. I did, however, take insult to the fact that someone - anyone - would consider that as a solution to the problem.
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"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
hi, in adult world, HACKING IS A PUNISHABLE OFFENSE. THAT IS WHY LULSEC WAS ARRESTED.
look it up.
There's also a difference between changing someone's account with the goal of looking at PMs (which ria could do anyway since I think he has/had backend access, if they really wanted to get at those PMs) and stealing personal information regarding thinks like credit card numbers. These false analogies are getting annoying :/
I never recommended demodding. I did, however, take insult to the fact that someone - anyone - would consider that as a solution to the problem.
And I fully sympathize with you. I'd be fairly pissed too if someone (especially a mod) went/tried to/suggested hacking my account for some official purpose. That doesn't mean that moderators should be required to self censor.
Badman:
What if someone in gutter was suspended for suggesting that they hack ria's account and troll with it to get him banned?
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
He also actually carried it out, and went about systematically killing (banning?) anyone who knew about the fact that he was killing anyone who knew about said set of actions.
So then this is akin to the staff banning everyone who was sourced info about the sale to Curse right?
Seems about right to me.
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Why Ban Affinity? Who doesn't like vomiting their hand into Play Turn 2?
So then this is akin to the staff banning everyone who was sourced info about the sale to Curse right?
Seems about right to me.
No no, it would be equivalent to the staff banning everyone who's ever posted in a CI thread regarding the Curse deal, as well as all gutter members.
The staff hasn't banned anyone for having knowledge, only for attempting to spread knowledge (however misguided these bannings were too).
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
There's also a difference between changing someone's account with the goal of looking at PMs (which ria could do anyway since I think he has/had backend access, if they really wanted to get at those PMs) and stealing personal information regarding thinks like credit card numbers. These false analogies are getting annoying :/
and you literately have a learning disability to even think that either is ok. I'm sure you can get help for that though, lots of support groups for it.
point is, this behavior is not becoming of a popular website, and the mods should feel ashamed, but i doubt it because thier parents brought them up to be 'special' when they should of been smacked when they did something wrong. it is disgusting by all the lying the mods are doing.
No no, it would be equivalent to the staff banning everyone who's ever posted in a CI thread regarding the Curse deal, as well as all gutter members.
The staff hasn't banned anyone for having knowledge, only for attempting to spread knowledge (however misguided these bannings were too).
OK the staff is only half-Stalin I guess I can settle for this.
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Why Ban Affinity? Who doesn't like vomiting their hand into Play Turn 2?
Badman:
What if someone in gutter was suspended for suggesting that they hack ria's account and troll with it to get him banned?
then they are ridiculed, banned and made into a meme about how dumb they were I.E. matt and 'tires'. plus the mods would jump on that because they are actively looking for a reason for closing the gutter.
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Randall 0705 - 2219 - 6000 and my pokemon safari is water, Azumarill Bibarel and Floatzel
Quote from "Megiddo" »
i like banning people because it makes people I don't like go away
and you literately have a learning disability to even think that either is ok. I'm sure you can get help for that though, lots of support groups for it.
point is, this behavior is not becoming of a popular website, and the mods should feel ashamed, but i doubt it because thier parents brought them up to be 'special' when they should of been smacked when they did something wrong. it is disgusting by all the lying the mods are doing.
What lying?
I've seen miscommunication galore, but I've yet to see outright lying.
Hanlon's razor.
then they are ridiculed, banned and made into a meme about how dumb they were I.E. matt and 'tires'. plus the mods would jump on that because they are actively looking for a reason for closing the gutter.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
You know what the hilarious part about all of this is... if the staff had just been out in the open in the first place, then this wouldn't have blown up in their faces in the first place. On another hilarious note: the banning of people for posting about the sale? It's called the Streisand Effect. More people found out about the sale because they were banned for speaking about it.
And now we have it where people hate one another, or what can be the closest thing to hate on an internet forum as one can get. This whole sordid affair is just really sad. I mean, I remember when a lot of members of the MTGS community, whether they just be mostly lurkers or what have you made it to Polar Bear God's tribute tournament in Roanoke. The banner had MTGS in one of the corners and quite a few people signed that banner with their MTGS user names as well. People were proud to say that they were members of the MTGS community, even if it was in some small way back then. Now? The vitriol and actions of everybody: Who would even want to make the effort to come here?
The staff plots against the users and the users get back at the staff. The staff recruits new members of the frat house and old members leave and are assimilated into the machine. It doesn't matter whether or not that statement is true (it isn't), but that is the general perception. And to be honest, it's sickening that is the perception in the first place.
My point was merely to demonstrate that ER has previously advocated intentionally deceiving the users.
And it was (unintentionally, on your part, I hope) blown out of proportion.
I mean, stalin metaphors? Really?
That isn't your fault, but it seems to be happening with everything. This isn't a game of mafia where the goal is to discredit your opponent by pointing out every inconsistency. The goal is to improve the site.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
Glimyrpost, tbh the stalin methaphor is from Fahey.
Also it could be strongly argued that getting rid of these bad apples on staff is beneficial to the site.
And no I don't mean the staff who are responsible for the leaks, since this is likely a defensive reaction from being forced to witness the lies and deceit of some staff members behind closed doors, from the lower to higher ranks, and being officially bound by a CoC which is in practice nothing more than a gag order.
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Why Ban Affinity? Who doesn't like vomiting their hand into Play Turn 2?
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
You know what the hilarious part about all of this is... if the staff had just been out in the open in the first place, then this wouldn't have blown up in their faces in the first place.
Bingo!
It doesn't take a leak to let me know that there is a big ole thread in the ML right now talking about damage control. Maybe someone tossed out the phrase unified front? Pretty good odds on that, but it doesn't matter. It really doesn't.
What does matter is to not be disingenuous in the fist place.
Worried about looking morally upright in public? The easiest way to appear morally upright is to be morally upright!
As far as the whole curse guys telling you that the gutter had to be closed? The fact that they wanted it to look like the idea came from inside sallys own staff and not from an outside force? You think that tied your hands? No. No, it did not. When you're faced with new leadership that forces you to lie, you have a choice to go along with it or not. The sucessful exodus from News speaks for itself. The gutter was wronged in all this, and our leaders stood up for it.
They, especially Kpaca, are wrongly banned from this site. But that's okay. They did the right thing in the face of adversity. Now we have our own site up and running.
My apologies for the late response, Work struck again.
Okay, apparently I need to clarify something. I thought I had made this fairly clear before, so let me try to do so again:
Before September 14th (I don't have an exact day on this), we were told by the big Curse head honcho the Gutter would probably have to go. He didn't like it, but he was willing to let our Liaison make the final decision.
On September 14th, in a chat with the Liaison, ER and I were told (in summary, we hadn't been in the chat when the direct order was issued) that we needed to close the Gutter and make it a staff action so Curse wouldn't be taking over a site already upset at them. Or, as the summary put it, 'as a PR gift'.
At roughly 7 am CST on September 21st, our Liaison respond to my request for leniency. He told us that if we wanted to leave the Gutter open, we could. He told us that if we wanted to say it was Curse, we could. His statement of 'close the Gutter' was made at 5 am (his time), and he went the logical (by which I assume he means 'least amount of work on everyone's behalf and shortest amount of drama') choice he could see.
He further went on to say that no decision would be finalized until Curse actually took over.
Our Liaison didn't lie to us. And there was no miscommunication about Curse's desires regarding the Gutter. Furthermore, we didn't think 'keep open' meant 'close', or think 'yes' meant 'no', or anything like that. The failure on the part of the admins was thinking that a statement of 'close the Gutter' was a set in stone decision. Our liaison informed us this wasn't true.
Continuing on, the OP of this thread was a joint post be me and ER. We both wrote it. So if you're declaring that ER is lying to you, you're also declaring I'm lying to you. Which, when you're saying I"m an honest admin and working on the behalf of the people, sounds very odd. The part that people seem to think is a lie is in the following paragraph:
The various mods debated back and forth, discussing and searching for alternatives to closing the Gutter, or to neutering it. We had committed to work with the Gutter in lieu of closing it, and none of us were comfortable rescinding that promise. After increasingly frustrated discussions that could not find a good solution, the admins decided that we would rather resign than go back on our word. We decided that the best course of action was to contact Curse and ask them to reconsider their closing requirement. They informed us that we took the suggestion too seriously, that it was up to us to close or not; there had been a simple misunderstanding about the nature of our business relationship. Unfortunately, the entire discussion was blown out of proportion due to a lack of understanding about the nature of these discussions and whether they were up for debate or not.
The bolded part is the problem. In our OP, we did not adequately state that the bolded part is a paraphrasing of Curse's return email (that I referred to above, from the Liaison). That entire bit is a paraphrase of Curse, not our take on our own actions.
As I said before: There were no lies.
Now, concerning Arcadic and Parinoid, and with the context laid out above, let me show you what's going on with our globals.
I am not privvy to the conversation, but i assure you that it was all a misunderstanding. I cannot confirm it without breaking COC, but the way it was initially phrased it looked terrible. Terrible enough for someone to not wait for clarification, over-react and leak it to the gutter. That wasn't Nai. Nai's the one who was looking for clarification.
The conversation he wasn't privy to was the Skype conversation. The misunderstanding? Our knowledge of the professional relationship between ourselves and the Liaison. The bit he can't talk about without breaking the COC? That's the thread I started, and the OP of that thread is quoted in the first post of this one.
The initial phrasing? That we had to close the Gutter and make it look like it was us.
The clarification I was looking for? Could we please not close the Gutter.
It was a fair bit different to that. As corny as it sounds the CoC prevents further clarification, but the conclusion wasn't as unreasonable as you make it sound.
And then there's this one. The 'conclusion' that Parinoid is talking about? The fact that Curse said we didn't have to close the Gutter.
The globals can correct me if they like, but that's how I see their posts. And to them, I'm sure those posts look fine. Because they knew the context. They knew that, in the first post of this thread, ER and I were paraphrasing Curse. They knew that because we had talked about it in the mod lounge and informed the mods that Curse had changed their minds. They didn't need the quotation marks I failed to put in: they knew what was up. So when they saw people reacting badly, they spoke up. But since they knew the context, and you didn't, it didn't parse right.
It doesn't take a leak to let me know that there is a big ole thread in the ML right now talking about damage control. Maybe someone tossed out the phrase unified front? Pretty good odds on that, but it doesn't matter. It really doesn't.
I can't comment on much, being a new mod, but I can confirm that no such thread has been put up in the local mod lounges.
I can't say anything about the global or admin lounges of course, but if they really were desperate for a "unified front" they would have said something to the local mods.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
If what Nai said is true, than all this drama has been over a misunderstanding, bannings and all.
Can I start laughing now, cause this has to be a joke?
Well, no.
Very specifically, the drama in the Mod Lounge itself was over a misunderstanding. I don't like using the word misunderstanding here, because the statement Curse made was pretty darn easy to understand. But eh.
This drama has been caused by a person maliciously taking posts out of the Mod Lounge and using them out of context in order to cause problems.
This. And no, they are not hold accountable. In fact, that would be the source of a lot of anger for me, if I hadn't learned to not get angry about privately owned forums about games of magical cards.
My YouTube Channel
Can't cause legal harm to the site.
Can cause legal harm to the site.
I'd agree, although not because its unconscionable, but because should it ever come out, the results (even if never actually implemented) would leave doubt in the minds of everyone who knew.
And I think that the mod that suggested that did something dumb. I don't think they should be demodded because of it.
Stalin thought the same thing during the Great Purge.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
He also actually carried it out, and went about systematically killing (banning?) anyone who knew about the fact that he was killing anyone who knew about said set of actions.
hi, in adult world, HACKING IS A PUNISHABLE OFFENSE. THAT IS WHY LULSEC WAS ARRESTED.
look it up.
www.diestoremoval.com
A truly great petition
I never recommended demodding. I did, however, take insult to the fact that someone - anyone - would consider that as a solution to the problem.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
There's also a difference between changing someone's account with the goal of looking at PMs (which ria could do anyway since I think he has/had backend access, if they really wanted to get at those PMs) and stealing personal information regarding thinks like credit card numbers. These false analogies are getting annoying :/
And I fully sympathize with you. I'd be fairly pissed too if someone (especially a mod) went/tried to/suggested hacking my account for some official purpose. That doesn't mean that moderators should be required to self censor.
Badman:
What if someone in gutter was suspended for suggesting that they hack ria's account and troll with it to get him banned?
Seems about right to me.
No no, it would be equivalent to the staff banning everyone who's ever posted in a CI thread regarding the Curse deal, as well as all gutter members.
The staff hasn't banned anyone for having knowledge, only for attempting to spread knowledge (however misguided these bannings were too).
and you literately have a learning disability to even think that either is ok. I'm sure you can get help for that though, lots of support groups for it.
point is, this behavior is not becoming of a popular website, and the mods should feel ashamed, but i doubt it because thier parents brought them up to be 'special' when they should of been smacked when they did something wrong. it is disgusting by all the lying the mods are doing.
Infraction for flaming/trolling.
-:ER:
www.diestoremoval.com
A truly great petition
then they are ridiculed, banned and made into a meme about how dumb they were I.E. matt and 'tires'. plus the mods would jump on that because they are actively looking for a reason for closing the gutter.
www.diestoremoval.com
A truly great petition
What lying?
I've seen miscommunication galore, but I've yet to see outright lying.
Hanlon's razor.
And what would your reaction be?
yes I'll agree with you mods are stupid.
Infraction for flaming.
-:ER:
www.diestoremoval.com
A truly great petition
And now we have it where people hate one another, or what can be the closest thing to hate on an internet forum as one can get. This whole sordid affair is just really sad. I mean, I remember when a lot of members of the MTGS community, whether they just be mostly lurkers or what have you made it to Polar Bear God's tribute tournament in Roanoke. The banner had MTGS in one of the corners and quite a few people signed that banner with their MTGS user names as well. People were proud to say that they were members of the MTGS community, even if it was in some small way back then. Now? The vitriol and actions of everybody: Who would even want to make the effort to come here?
The staff plots against the users and the users get back at the staff. The staff recruits new members of the frat house and old members leave and are assimilated into the machine. It doesn't matter whether or not that statement is true (it isn't), but that is the general perception. And to be honest, it's sickening that is the perception in the first place.
And it was (unintentionally, on your part, I hope) blown out of proportion.
I mean, stalin metaphors? Really?
That isn't your fault, but it seems to be happening with everything. This isn't a game of mafia where the goal is to discredit your opponent by pointing out every inconsistency. The goal is to improve the site.
Also it could be strongly argued that getting rid of these bad apples on staff is beneficial to the site.
And no I don't mean the staff who are responsible for the leaks, since this is likely a defensive reaction from being forced to witness the lies and deceit of some staff members behind closed doors, from the lower to higher ranks, and being officially bound by a CoC which is in practice nothing more than a gag order.
I know, if it came off differently, that was not my intention.
Bingo!
It doesn't take a leak to let me know that there is a big ole thread in the ML right now talking about damage control. Maybe someone tossed out the phrase unified front? Pretty good odds on that, but it doesn't matter. It really doesn't.
What does matter is to not be disingenuous in the fist place.
Worried about looking morally upright in public? The easiest way to appear morally upright is to be morally upright!
As far as the whole curse guys telling you that the gutter had to be closed? The fact that they wanted it to look like the idea came from inside sallys own staff and not from an outside force? You think that tied your hands? No. No, it did not. When you're faced with new leadership that forces you to lie, you have a choice to go along with it or not. The sucessful exodus from News speaks for itself. The gutter was wronged in all this, and our leaders stood up for it.
They, especially Kpaca, are wrongly banned from this site. But that's okay. They did the right thing in the face of adversity. Now we have our own site up and running.
Okay, apparently I need to clarify something. I thought I had made this fairly clear before, so let me try to do so again:
Before September 14th (I don't have an exact day on this), we were told by the big Curse head honcho the Gutter would probably have to go. He didn't like it, but he was willing to let our Liaison make the final decision.
On September 14th, in a chat with the Liaison, ER and I were told (in summary, we hadn't been in the chat when the direct order was issued) that we needed to close the Gutter and make it a staff action so Curse wouldn't be taking over a site already upset at them. Or, as the summary put it, 'as a PR gift'.
At roughly 7 am CST on September 21st, our Liaison respond to my request for leniency. He told us that if we wanted to leave the Gutter open, we could. He told us that if we wanted to say it was Curse, we could. His statement of 'close the Gutter' was made at 5 am (his time), and he went the logical (by which I assume he means 'least amount of work on everyone's behalf and shortest amount of drama') choice he could see.
He further went on to say that no decision would be finalized until Curse actually took over.
Our Liaison didn't lie to us. And there was no miscommunication about Curse's desires regarding the Gutter. Furthermore, we didn't think 'keep open' meant 'close', or think 'yes' meant 'no', or anything like that. The failure on the part of the admins was thinking that a statement of 'close the Gutter' was a set in stone decision. Our liaison informed us this wasn't true.
Continuing on, the OP of this thread was a joint post be me and ER. We both wrote it. So if you're declaring that ER is lying to you, you're also declaring I'm lying to you. Which, when you're saying I"m an honest admin and working on the behalf of the people, sounds very odd. The part that people seem to think is a lie is in the following paragraph:
The bolded part is the problem. In our OP, we did not adequately state that the bolded part is a paraphrasing of Curse's return email (that I referred to above, from the Liaison). That entire bit is a paraphrase of Curse, not our take on our own actions.
As I said before: There were no lies.
Now, concerning Arcadic and Parinoid, and with the context laid out above, let me show you what's going on with our globals.
The conversation he wasn't privy to was the Skype conversation. The misunderstanding? Our knowledge of the professional relationship between ourselves and the Liaison. The bit he can't talk about without breaking the COC? That's the thread I started, and the OP of that thread is quoted in the first post of this one.
The initial phrasing? That we had to close the Gutter and make it look like it was us.
The clarification I was looking for? Could we please not close the Gutter.
And then there's this one. The 'conclusion' that Parinoid is talking about? The fact that Curse said we didn't have to close the Gutter.
The globals can correct me if they like, but that's how I see their posts. And to them, I'm sure those posts look fine. Because they knew the context. They knew that, in the first post of this thread, ER and I were paraphrasing Curse. They knew that because we had talked about it in the mod lounge and informed the mods that Curse had changed their minds. They didn't need the quotation marks I failed to put in: they knew what was up. So when they saw people reacting badly, they spoke up. But since they knew the context, and you didn't, it didn't parse right.
I do hope this helps clear things up.
My helpdesk should you need me.
I can't say anything about the global or admin lounges of course, but if they really were desperate for a "unified front" they would have said something to the local mods.
Can I start laughing now, cause this has to be a joke?
Well, no.
Very specifically, the drama in the Mod Lounge itself was over a misunderstanding. I don't like using the word misunderstanding here, because the statement Curse made was pretty darn easy to understand. But eh.
This drama has been caused by a person maliciously taking posts out of the Mod Lounge and using them out of context in order to cause problems.
My helpdesk should you need me.