The discussion about a checks and balances system should be held here, publicly, not behind closed doors.
I am certain that there will be a discussion, once there is a proposed plan; however, right now I am sure that a lot of people, staff or not, would be more comfortable having that conversation only once an actual proposal exists.
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Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Again, I don't believe this poll is as reliable as you seem to think. Many votes were cast prior to discussion and many minds may have changed through the course of the debate here.
Essentially this. I know myself and others voted on the initial idea of a Tribunal, not the fully thought-out concept. This happens with polls all the time. You vote on a simple line whether its a good idea to explore, and then once it develops many opinions simply change.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
Harkius, I'm not going to comment on the rest of your assertions, because they really seem to be a tad in poor taste.
That whole avoiding questions thing?
Even regular posts saying "nothing more than, "We're still talking about this." would be welcomed. It would remind people that discussions are still ongoing, and would acknowledge the concerns of the userbase in a respectful manner. Its actually a basic PR move, something that this administration is only slowly learning thanks to basically the very appreciated efforts of Nai.
Quite complaining everywhere and let the mods try and figure something out. If you didn't distract them with your ban appeal, they might have actually made progress and updated us. However, mods are spending so much energy attempting to appease you that they are distracted from doing things that actually matter to the site, and thus can't appease you.
EDIT:
Same thing here. If the staff doesn't even make a token effort in posting something along the lines of "just a heads up to tell you that fierce discussions about this topic are still ongoing and that we will come back to you guys with a definite position from the staff soon", it shouldn't come as surprising that people may start thinking that their concerns have been swept under the rug again (as it has been increasingly the tradition in more recent times).
Who is 'people'? I see you saying this, and no one, or nearly no one else asking the same.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
N_S, be fair with us. There's currently... At least 4 major-drama decisions that are being made right now by the staff, and I believe at least 3 of them have members haranguing us for a quick solution. As Sene brought up with me in an AIM chat just now, our attention is split and having to be dealt with.
THIS particular idea has taken a back seat to other things. The Gutter, for an example. Recent promotions. At least two suspensions. Additional staffing. Discussions on a few rules and procedures that need clarification. There's simply not enough man-hours to go and look and go 'oh, we haven't touched this in a while'.
We're not ignoring how to make this site better, but a LOT of things are going on right now that the staff is focusing attention on. An overly-complicated 'just in case this happens again' plan hasn't gone high on the priority list. Even mine.
N_S, be fair with us. There's currently... At least 4 major-drama decisions that are being made right now by the staff, and I believe at least 3 of them have members haranguing us for a quick solution. As Sene brought up with me in an AIM chat just now, our attention is split and having to be dealt with.
THIS particular idea has taken a back seat to other things. The Gutter, for an example. Recent promotions. At least two suspensions. Additional staffing. Discussions on a few rules and procedures that need clarification. There's simply not enough man-hours to go and look and go 'oh, we haven't touched this in a while'.
We're not ignoring how to make this site better, but a LOT of things are going on right now that the staff is focusing attention on. An overly-complicated 'just in case this happens again' plan hasn't gone high on the priority list. Even mine.
Perhaps a "major issues staff is discussing" sticky in CI?
I read this and I immediately understood you were 100% right. How arrogant of me to have the nerve of wasting people's time and demanding that an unjust decision be reversed. My humblest apologies.
Justice is a completely subjective and arbitrarily assigned word. Just because you deem it unjust does not make it unjust. If we take the word at dictionary value, you're being unjust to the administration and moderation staff. Does that mean they should file a grievance to have you permanently removed? This isn't the US or World court, you are not owed any civil liberties here nor are they promised to you. You are given a site to use, and if they choose to suspend, infract, warn, or ban you for any reason it is not something that is unjust. It is their decision because justice and it's concepts do not fit into this private arena except where a US or World court would be involved.
You're making a mountain out of a mole hill and purposefully inciting drama. The truth is they'll never be capable of satisfying you or your ilk because you want what you can't have. You want to be an admin/mod but without any of the additional responsibilities and you haven't shown yourself to be admin/mod material because you can't remain impartial or objective. Do the majority of the users a solid and stop posting outside the gutter.
I need to refute accusations of starting CI dramabomb threads? Have a look at CI first page, I see only the admin reform thread I started, and there was no drama there.
You have been at the center of every major issue over the past month or so here in CI. Your suspension, Gutter, Ria's position change, etc. You put yourself at the center of every issue, and inflame each and every one. So yes, you do (if not create) at least fan the flames of CI dramabombs. (see harkius' last post regarding CI dramabaombs =/= CI dramabomb threads, nice straw man)
Plus, I'm not staff. I am just one of many vanilla users. I have no power whatsoever to infract you or suspend you. Why do you want decision-making transparency from a guy who has no power to take a single decision?
I just find your hypocrisy entertaining. You expect the mods to meet a certain standard of answering your questions, but refuse to answer those of mods and other players. It just makes me chuckle, but continue on on your quest for your personal perfect forum.
I read this and I immediately understood you were 100% right. How arrogant of me to have the nerve of wasting people's time and demanding that an unjust decision be reversed. My humblest apologies.
*in your opinion.
Anyway, if you feel the need to demand that said decision be reversed, don't get aggravated when other things you want done take longer. People are catering to you (almost solely, like seriously), so don't even try to take the high ground when someone/some group is unable to work as fast as you'd like, or not keep you as informed as you'd like, about a topic that you've upstaged.
As an aside, could you outline the 'rules that respect the users' that you would institute as an admin, I want to see if that statement has any backing as well.
EDIT:
However, reading your last post, it seems that you will continue to do what you have been: ignoring any criticism of you or your actions and trying (vainly) to stir up trouble and initiate unnecessary change. No one is being intentionally insulting, save you. No one is being intentionally sarcastic, condescending, or anything unnecessarily rude, except you. You continue to try and take some sort of moral high ground, and the more you do it, the more it looks like you are intentionally trolling not just the staff, but the entire userbase. Like seriously, not only are you wasting the staff's time, you are preventing them from doing things that would actually benefit the forum at large. I'm starting to think that they (and we) would be better off if they just IP banned you and were done with it. I don't care how much of a following you have in the gutter (although, from a distinct lack of comments by any other gutter members there, I'm starting to think you might be alone in this crusade, though that may be pure conjecture), or how long you've been a member of this site, or how entitled you feel you are, you aren't contributing anything good to the site, and I at least wish you could just be gotten rid of.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
I was referring to dramabombs, not tribunals. There were issues surrounding you being an Administrator, which were addressed, in my view at least, because there was a dramabomb about the subject. The reason why I support the tribunal proposal is because I think that these dramabombs should not be necessary, but I'm not sure that just shooting down this proposal will have any effect aside from more dramabombs.
If Sene's idea about using summits could be fleshed out a bit more, that would probably do the job as well. Issues like how a summit would be called, whether the users themselves or an ombudsman would participate, and so forth. Right now, the only trigger I've ever seen for a summit is a dramabomb, hence the above paragraph.
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I am petitioning for the removal of all other signature petitions. WoTC doesn't give a crap about them. Get over yourself and sig this to join the cause.
1) I cannot avoid but to be at the center of my suspension appeal drama.
But you could in fact make it less dramatic.
2) As an appointed spokeperson of the Gutter, I cannot avoid but to be at the center of that drama too. Do note that the initiative of shutting it down from the blue wasn't mine
But you could in fact make it less dramatic
3) Last time I read that thread, ria's position change came at the initiative of Azrael
You were one of the first to call for him to be totally demodded. Attempting to stawman as much as you are isn't helping.
OK. Lets have some vanilla user transparency if that makes you happy. I'm 1m85cm tall, weigh 86kg (a bit more than I'd deem optimal), I had fruits with yogurt for breakfast this morning. Yesterday, my main posting was carried out in SYM and on a hidden section of the forums.
I'm glad to know that, really, I am. But back to the point, why don't you respond to the post harkius made that you deemed was in poor taste. I mean, as much as it may or may not have been, it isn't as though you never demanded ria respond to posts that were in poor taste.
Feel free to ask me for more questions if you feel these answers are insufficient
That condescending attitude thing: example 1
If you are referring to my sig, I feel I need to point out that this is written in jest ever since I've learned that one big part of promoting people to administrators seems to be proficiency at writing rules, at the exclusion of people skills. I actually don't believe the staff would agree to admin me. I think many people there don't like my style nor my persona.
Or maybe this was a masterfully crafted power grab ploy that you and others clearly uncovered. I was really on the fast track to the higher echelons of the staff, but this was without counting with the resourcefulness of some clever vanilla users. Oh boy don't I have egg on my face now, guess I'll never be admin now.
Oh yes, don't I look bad now for having stumbled across, and treated an obviously sarcastic remark as serious, oh no, however shall I regain face.
But lets do a short exercise of administrative reform anyway, in the shape of some cliff notes:
- completed suspension appeal threads being moved to a visible locked subforum.
What if a user did not want this, as I feel would be the case in many appeals? Otherwise, more transparency is cool.
- The no-soliciting rule is not being applied properly by the staff.
Basically, all closed auctions and all the non-MTG related auctions should be fair game, with some moderator discretion (common sense essentially) applied.
fair, in some some senses, however it may be their opinion that the forum should not be used to solicit anything (i'm unsure if the rule is worded differently), because they do not want the forum used as a way to promote someone's online business, in any way (other than in sigs)
- More humility from the staff. the staff should be capable of acknowledging when a mistake has been done, and issuing an apology to the wronged user.
Yes, and soda from the waterfountains. There is a difference between changing a rule and changing the way the staff acts.
- More compassion from the staff. Some in the staff act as the site visionaries and shrug off suggestions/input from the userbase. This should change too.
Same as above, but I'll disagree here, I generally find the staff very humble and gracious, save in circumstances where they are insulted or accused of something outrageous.
- No posting on behalf rule clarification/reform: see Nai's helpdesk discussion
Could you explain this slightly, do you mean that general users should not be allowed to attempt to chime in/clarify rules? As, for example, myself and harkius (I believe it was) did in your suspension appeal?
- checking if vbulletin allows the locking of individual posts. This would solve the no-editing after mod rule without the need to infract offending users a second time. less cards, less drama.
I actually abhor this rule, so if it were possible, that would in fact be nice.
- There needs to be an urgent research on the enactment of a "Fair Use" policy, with the input of people with a legal background. This will prevent questionable suspensions like the one of Tormod, and could be useful for covering the Rumor Mill too.
As much as clearer rulings are nice, the number of times fair use has come up as an issue is, like.....twice. I'm unsure if an urgent research is necessary, although certainly finding out from other relevant sites and entities, like SCG, Wizards/hasbro, and such what there requests are would be appropriate.
- Some subforums have a subset of more stringent rules. This may be warranted. However, when it comes to the Magic Rulings forum, there is a consistent trail of users complaining about being treated unfairly. You don't see that in another more stringent subforum like Debate. Magic rulings staff members therefore need some guidance on how to more effectively apply strict rulings without ruffling too much feathers, like in Debate. Rumor Mill could use some tweakings too.
I'll agree, I've had mixed experiences in rulings, and I feel like there are some rules there that could be rewritten.
- There needs to be an advisory/ombudsman board without any executive power, nor any link to the staff (no lounge access, etc...) They would have a secret subforum to discuss any perceived issues, and a thread in CI where they would post opinions and advice. Some high profile infractions/suspensions could be appealed to them in addition to the normal appeal, and a recommendation (just a recommendation, not an overruling, which would be left to the hands of the staff) would be issued. Its as simple as that, and those claiming that the idea is too convoluted are disingenuous at best.
The only problem I have with this is that it will become a figurehead board, with no actual power and that dramabombs would occur when its requests/suggestions aren't followed by staff, even when the staff has ample evidence that those suggestions should not be followed.
- On the bright side, Market Street rulings and their application seem to be close to top notch. I wouldn't touch anything. As someone once told me, you don't fool around when there's money involved.
My interaction in market street is minimal, but I do agree that what I've seen is great.
Of course, I would love nothing more than to discuss staff reform with anyone, but I would have to be sure that other people are also invested in furthering the site, instead of resorting to trolling and ad-hominem attacks...
I've got an idea, watch CI in the coming week, as I'll have time to possibly do something.
In the end, It's not rules per se that are poorly drafted. It just seems that there is an increasingly worrisome trend in their interpretation. Again, I don't have information on how rule enforcement is handled behind doors, but there seems to have been an increased number of problems with the application of some rules, when said problems didn't exist before. I don't need to come back to the posting on behalf suspended users rule, because it has been detailedly discussed, but there has also been the stifling interpretation of the "no-soliciting rule" where it seems you cannot even link anymore to funny/bizarre auctions, or even closed ones. There is a perceived cop out of many staff members that just enforce some stringent interpretation to avoid exerting personal common sense judgment (either because they do not want to do so, are incapable to do so, or are afraid to do so).
I take a different opinion here: if your interpretation of the rules and the mods interpretations of the rules can differ so much, it might be a rules issue, either that or someone is attempting to take advantage of their position (either as a mod or as a vocal user), but that seems much less likely.
The atmosphere around here has dramatically degraded. I'm sure many like yourself will attribute this solely to "dramaqueens" like myself and you might even believe that a discretionary ban would magically solve everything. I believe that the interpretation and enforcement of rules has taken a dramatic u-turn in the wrong direction, and this leads to more and more drama as more and more users are subject to an invalid interpretation of the rules adding to a lump of disgruntled users. That's where I stand. Agree to disagree I guess
I never said a discretionary ban would solve everything, I just think that it is one way of settling some of the drama here, which could (I honestly don't know if it would) lead to some more constructive discussion over things that actually matter, other than those that really only affect a single user.
Another aside:
would you be ok if your suspension stood, and the posting on behalf of other users rule was changed/reworded/clarified so that it was at least clearer as to what counted as posting on behalf of another user, and the rule was worded so that the situation you were banned for would not result in a suspension, unless there was more evidence involved?
God, these longs posts are killing me, if you want to lay the rules thing to rest, I'm happy to do that, it is a time sieve.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
I entered 'other' on the poll and I guess am required to explain myself?
My thoughts are simple- I think this entire conversation caters to a very small number of actual members, who just happen to whine and complain the loudest. It's already been stated that you can never please everyone, and all this exhibits is that the people who complain most, longest and loudest- get heeded.
None of this so-called drama that was 'affecting the whole site' affected anything I did here on a daily basis, and the only time I see it being discussed are in these massive complaint threads in the admin sections (i read it when i am bored). This all just seems like posturing upon posturing until someone who wasn't getting their way, gets it in the end.
I like to walk into conversations and give my misinformed opinion as well. It's like walking out of a bathroom with your fly unzipped and saying "here I am! Look at me!"
Man, this thread made me nostalgic (perhaps no part more than Belgarth's cute little comma spacing). Where are Xen, qwerty, Butte, and sneaky when you need them?
Of course, this proposal doesn't really concern me, but I can't help but agree with mikeyG that it is always wise to avoid falling further down the rabbit hole of nerd *****ery when it can be avoided.
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I am certain that there will be a discussion, once there is a proposed plan; however, right now I am sure that a lot of people, staff or not, would be more comfortable having that conversation only once an actual proposal exists.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Essentially this. I know myself and others voted on the initial idea of a Tribunal, not the fully thought-out concept. This happens with polls all the time. You vote on a simple line whether its a good idea to explore, and then once it develops many opinions simply change.
That whole avoiding questions thing?
Quite complaining everywhere and let the mods try and figure something out. If you didn't distract them with your ban appeal, they might have actually made progress and updated us. However, mods are spending so much energy attempting to appease you that they are distracted from doing things that actually matter to the site, and thus can't appease you.
Who is 'people'? I see you saying this, and no one, or nearly no one else asking the same.
THIS particular idea has taken a back seat to other things. The Gutter, for an example. Recent promotions. At least two suspensions. Additional staffing. Discussions on a few rules and procedures that need clarification. There's simply not enough man-hours to go and look and go 'oh, we haven't touched this in a while'.
We're not ignoring how to make this site better, but a LOT of things are going on right now that the staff is focusing attention on. An overly-complicated 'just in case this happens again' plan hasn't gone high on the priority list. Even mine.
My helpdesk should you need me.
Perhaps a "major issues staff is discussing" sticky in CI?
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Justice is a completely subjective and arbitrarily assigned word. Just because you deem it unjust does not make it unjust. If we take the word at dictionary value, you're being unjust to the administration and moderation staff. Does that mean they should file a grievance to have you permanently removed? This isn't the US or World court, you are not owed any civil liberties here nor are they promised to you. You are given a site to use, and if they choose to suspend, infract, warn, or ban you for any reason it is not something that is unjust. It is their decision because justice and it's concepts do not fit into this private arena except where a US or World court would be involved.
You're making a mountain out of a mole hill and purposefully inciting drama. The truth is they'll never be capable of satisfying you or your ilk because you want what you can't have. You want to be an admin/mod but without any of the additional responsibilities and you haven't shown yourself to be admin/mod material because you can't remain impartial or objective. Do the majority of the users a solid and stop posting outside the gutter.
Bring on the portmanteau of herd homo sapiens.
Infraction for trolling.
-:ER:
You have been at the center of every major issue over the past month or so here in CI. Your suspension, Gutter, Ria's position change, etc. You put yourself at the center of every issue, and inflame each and every one. So yes, you do (if not create) at least fan the flames of CI dramabombs. (see harkius' last post regarding CI dramabaombs =/= CI dramabomb threads, nice straw man)
I just find your hypocrisy entertaining. You expect the mods to meet a certain standard of answering your questions, but refuse to answer those of mods and other players. It just makes me chuckle, but continue on on your quest for your personal perfect forum.
*in your opinion.
Anyway, if you feel the need to demand that said decision be reversed, don't get aggravated when other things you want done take longer. People are catering to you (almost solely, like seriously), so don't even try to take the high ground when someone/some group is unable to work as fast as you'd like, or not keep you as informed as you'd like, about a topic that you've upstaged.
As an aside, could you outline the 'rules that respect the users' that you would institute as an admin, I want to see if that statement has any backing as well.
EDIT:
However, reading your last post, it seems that you will continue to do what you have been: ignoring any criticism of you or your actions and trying (vainly) to stir up trouble and initiate unnecessary change. No one is being intentionally insulting, save you. No one is being intentionally sarcastic, condescending, or anything unnecessarily rude, except you. You continue to try and take some sort of moral high ground, and the more you do it, the more it looks like you are intentionally trolling not just the staff, but the entire userbase. Like seriously, not only are you wasting the staff's time, you are preventing them from doing things that would actually benefit the forum at large. I'm starting to think that they (and we) would be better off if they just IP banned you and were done with it. I don't care how much of a following you have in the gutter (although, from a distinct lack of comments by any other gutter members there, I'm starting to think you might be alone in this crusade, though that may be pure conjecture), or how long you've been a member of this site, or how entitled you feel you are, you aren't contributing anything good to the site, and I at least wish you could just be gotten rid of.
I was referring to dramabombs, not tribunals. There were issues surrounding you being an Administrator, which were addressed, in my view at least, because there was a dramabomb about the subject. The reason why I support the tribunal proposal is because I think that these dramabombs should not be necessary, but I'm not sure that just shooting down this proposal will have any effect aside from more dramabombs.
If Sene's idea about using summits could be fleshed out a bit more, that would probably do the job as well. Issues like how a summit would be called, whether the users themselves or an ombudsman would participate, and so forth. Right now, the only trigger I've ever seen for a summit is a dramabomb, hence the above paragraph.
I am petitioning for the removal of all other signature petitions. WoTC doesn't give a crap about them.
Get over yourself and sig this to join the cause.
But you could in fact make it less dramatic.
But you could in fact make it less dramatic
You were one of the first to call for him to be totally demodded. Attempting to stawman as much as you are isn't helping.
I'm glad to know that, really, I am. But back to the point, why don't you respond to the post harkius made that you deemed was in poor taste. I mean, as much as it may or may not have been, it isn't as though you never demanded ria respond to posts that were in poor taste.
That condescending attitude thing: example 1
Oh yes, don't I look bad now for having stumbled across, and treated an obviously sarcastic remark as serious, oh no, however shall I regain face.
What if a user did not want this, as I feel would be the case in many appeals? Otherwise, more transparency is cool.
fair, in some some senses, however it may be their opinion that the forum should not be used to solicit anything (i'm unsure if the rule is worded differently), because they do not want the forum used as a way to promote someone's online business, in any way (other than in sigs)
Yes, and soda from the waterfountains. There is a difference between changing a rule and changing the way the staff acts.
Same as above, but I'll disagree here, I generally find the staff very humble and gracious, save in circumstances where they are insulted or accused of something outrageous.
Could you explain this slightly, do you mean that general users should not be allowed to attempt to chime in/clarify rules? As, for example, myself and harkius (I believe it was) did in your suspension appeal?
I actually abhor this rule, so if it were possible, that would in fact be nice.
As much as clearer rulings are nice, the number of times fair use has come up as an issue is, like.....twice. I'm unsure if an urgent research is necessary, although certainly finding out from other relevant sites and entities, like SCG, Wizards/hasbro, and such what there requests are would be appropriate.
I'll agree, I've had mixed experiences in rulings, and I feel like there are some rules there that could be rewritten.
The only problem I have with this is that it will become a figurehead board, with no actual power and that dramabombs would occur when its requests/suggestions aren't followed by staff, even when the staff has ample evidence that those suggestions should not be followed.
My interaction in market street is minimal, but I do agree that what I've seen is great.
I've got an idea, watch CI in the coming week, as I'll have time to possibly do something.
I take a different opinion here: if your interpretation of the rules and the mods interpretations of the rules can differ so much, it might be a rules issue, either that or someone is attempting to take advantage of their position (either as a mod or as a vocal user), but that seems much less likely.
I never said a discretionary ban would solve everything, I just think that it is one way of settling some of the drama here, which could (I honestly don't know if it would) lead to some more constructive discussion over things that actually matter, other than those that really only affect a single user.
Another aside:
would you be ok if your suspension stood, and the posting on behalf of other users rule was changed/reworded/clarified so that it was at least clearer as to what counted as posting on behalf of another user, and the rule was worded so that the situation you were banned for would not result in a suspension, unless there was more evidence involved?
God, these longs posts are killing me, if you want to lay the rules thing to rest, I'm happy to do that, it is a time sieve.
My thoughts are simple- I think this entire conversation caters to a very small number of actual members, who just happen to whine and complain the loudest. It's already been stated that you can never please everyone, and all this exhibits is that the people who complain most, longest and loudest- get heeded.
None of this so-called drama that was 'affecting the whole site' affected anything I did here on a daily basis, and the only time I see it being discussed are in these massive complaint threads in the admin sections (i read it when i am bored). This all just seems like posturing upon posturing until someone who wasn't getting their way, gets it in the end.
out.
:symu::symr::symw::symb::symg: Dream Halls :symu::symr::symw::symb::symg:
:symu::symw: U/W/x Landstill (now Miracles) :symu::symw:
:symu::symu: Merfolk :symu::symu:
contact me!
So I assume that means I can spam up CI, cause why not?
Saying wayyyyooooo
Sally's lame-o
Stop the politicking, go back to the good stuff
Of course, this proposal doesn't really concern me, but I can't help but agree with mikeyG that it is always wise to avoid falling further down the rabbit hole of nerd *****ery when it can be avoided.