I'd like to ask everyone to refocus on the topic and purpose of this thread please (Reserved list discussion is an unrelated topic and better kept to a more appropriate part of the forums):
Proxies are substitute cards created solely by judges in sanctioned tournaments pursuant to the official tournament rules. These substitutes are allowed when authorized game cards become unplayable during a sanctioned tournament because of damage or excessive wear. Proxies do not include any graphical reproduction of their intended substitutes.
Counterfeits
Counterfeits are copies or reproductions of actual Wizards trading cards, whether or not they are identified as non-genuine. The creation and distribution of counterfeits violate United States and international copyright laws and negatively affects the integrity of Wizards’ trading card games. Counterfeits are strictly prohibited, even for personal, non-commercial use.
As you can see, what we commonly refer to proxies, WotC sees as counterfeiting. In line with this, our rules now clearly state:
Promotion of illegal activity, requesting advice about participation in an illegal activity, or assisting in any illegal activity, including but not limited to unlawful drug use, theft, copyright infringement (this includes downloading, reproducing, soliciting copyrighted material being distributed without permission of the copyright holder [such as printed Magic: the Gathering proxies (playable cards or tokens) which use any of Wizards of the Coast's graphics or illustrations]) is strictly prohibited.
Immediate Banning Offenses:
Proxies (ie Counterfeiting)
Anyone attempting to sell/trade proxies and or reproductions will be automatically banned from MTG Salvation and will be reported to Wizards of the Coast and any appropriate US or foreign law enforcement agencies. There are no exceptions.
If you have any questions or comments, please feel free to post them here. The staff thanks you for your compliance in this matter.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Really? Why would posting an image of a proxy be OK? Everytime I've done or seen it done, every single time, it leads to, "How did you make that?". Both in the thread and via PM.
If MTGS has a policy against that discussion, then why enable it at the same time?
Really? Why would posting an image of a proxy be OK? Everytime I've done or seen it done, every single time, it leads to, "How did you make that?". Both in the thread and via PM.
If MTGS has a policy against that discussion, then why enable it at the same time?
As long as you don't answer them on the forums there is no problem. The issue is that MTGS does not want to facilitate discussion on it's forums that tells someone how to print a proxy with copyrighted art. You can post an image of a $20 bill, but will get in trouble for discussing how to print one.
As long as you don't answer them on the forums there is no problem. The issue is that MTGS does not want to facilitate discussion on it's forums that tells someone how to print a proxy with copyrighted art. You can post an image of a $20 bill, but will get in trouble for discussing how to print one.
I'd argue that I'd get in plenty of trouble for posting a pic of a $20 bill that I printed.
Really? Why would posting an image of a proxy be OK? Everytime I've done or seen it done, every single time, it leads to, "How did you make that?". Both in the thread and via PM.
If MTGS has a policy against that discussion, then why enable it at the same time?
I would argue that hi-res digital images are more of a concern for enabling than a picture will ever be. & if someone chooses to ignore the rules to open the topic of conversation, that is their choice.
This will always come up regardless of our measure to prevent them. We are doing the best we can without being draconian & crushing the alter community.
I was directed here to ask these questions before I put a post up about this topic. From what I have read acrylic altering on a card, while making the card possibly unplayable in a tournament, is a legal thing to do. Assuming I was correct in this understanding is it against forum rules to discuss a successful way to print additional art on an existing card? For example... Acetone washing a boarder off a Mana Leak and Printing an extension of the artwork to the boarder directly on the card.
The reason for this interest is that I am a digital artist with little to no skill in paint or ink. But with a lot of interest in doing additional artwork on cards. I apologize if this was discussed already and I missed it (quite a lot to read) but I do not want to do anything on this forum that would jeopardize it. Please let me know if this is a inappropriate topic for this forum and specifically why.
I was directed here to ask these questions before I put a post up about this topic. From what I have read acrylic altering on a card, while making the card possibly unplayable in a tournament, is a legal thing to do. Assuming I was correct in this understanding is it against forum rules to discuss a successful way to print additional art on an existing card? For example... Acetone washing a boarder off a Mana Leak and Printing an extension of the artwork to the boarder directly on the card.
The reason for this interest is that I am a digital artist with little to no skill in paint or ink. But with a lot of interest in doing additional artwork on cards. I apologize if this was discussed already and I missed it (quite a lot to read) but I do not want to do anything on this forum that would jeopardize it. Please let me know if this is a inappropriate topic for this forum and specifically why.
To answer your "specifically why" question, in addition to the issues already discussed here, this technique could just as easily be used to wash the complete art off the Mana Leak and make a high-quality fraudulent version of a much more expensive card. We don't want to provide instructions for doing so.
To answer your "specifically why" question, in addition to the issues already discussed here, this technique could just as easily be used to wash the complete art off the Mana Leak and make a high-quality fraudulent version of a much more expensive card. We don't want to provide instructions for doing so.
When we let illegal activities hamper our legal activities something is wrong with the system.
I love custom alt-art.
Anyway, it is analogous to say we shouldn't explain how properly to butcher meat because someone could use those same skills on a human. We shouldn't talk about how to properly wire a circuit because you can use those same skills on a bomb. Forbid we talk about filming for youtube because the same skills can be used to shoot child porn.
I understand that this forum is private property, but surely you can see how reducing civil liberties is a negative thing, right?
When we let illegal activities hamper our legal activities something is wrong with the system.
I love custom alt-art.
Anyway, it is analogous to say we shouldn't explain how properly to butcher meat because someone could use those same skills on a human. We shouldn't talk about how to properly wire a circuit because you can use those same skills on a bomb. Forbid we talk about filming for youtube because the same skills can be used to shoot child porn.
I understand that this forum is private property, but surely you can see how reducing civil liberties is a negative thing, right?
One major reason why these techniques are not allowed to be discussed here is that the counterfeiters who would steal the (sickeningly awesome) techniques that would develop if we allowed this wouldn't obey the reasonable restrictions we'd have in place and would sell the things they print on eBay. Given the choice between exposing the site and its owner to potential liability by having publicly accessible tools used to steal from the community, or banning this discussion, we choose to not open the doors to legal problems and to not hand scammers the ability to sell fake foil stuff on eBay.
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Hey all... I'm retired, not dead. Check out what I'm doing these days (and beg me to come back if you want):
One major reason why these techniques are notlonger allowed to be discussed here is that the counterfeiters who wouldstealstole the (sickeningly awesome) techniques that would developed whenif we allowed this wouldn't didn't obey the reasonable restrictions we'd havehad in place and would sellsold the things they print on eBay.
Given the choice between exposing the site and its owner to potential liability by having publicly accessible tools used to steal from the community, or banning this discussion, we choose to not open the doors to legal problems and to not hand scammers the ability to sell fake foil stuff on eBay.
Emphasis and changes mine. It's also about what has happened, not just what might happen in the future.
Emphasis and changes mine. It's also about what has happened, not just what might happen in the future.
True, what's happened is in the past, we did what we could to put a stop to it, but I for one am sick and tired of finding people on feeBay selling fake cards. They hurt the game, they hurt the value of all of our collections, they hurt everyone.
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():
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Hey all... I'm retired, not dead. Check out what I'm doing these days (and beg me to come back if you want):
you use mana symbol so you need to die... nah if discussion about how to make that is illegal that would be sad! nice hentai cutie btw...
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Kakwann, Lvl 39 Sorcerer
Currently Playing
Standard:GWRU 4C Collected Company Modern:GUWRB Bloom Titan Legacy:BUG SHARDLESS BUG
EDH : GR BORBORYGMOS ENRAGED GU PRIME SPEAKER ZEGENA UWR ZEDRUU THE GREATHEARTED UBR MISHRA ARTIFICER PRODIGY B SHEOLDRED WHISPERING ONE R ASHLING THE PILGRIM
I understand that this forum is private property, but surely you can see how reducing civil liberties is a negative thing, right?
It is not just the view of the forum though.
Its the views and legal statements of WotC.
It would be very bad for MTGS to ignore WotC's statements or violate copyright legalities. Not only at the risk of being shunned by the hand that feeds us, but the possibility of being shut down for breaching copyright laws. Even if your not given a cease and desist court order, your web host can decide your not worth the legal troubles and dump you.
Altered art opens the door for a lot of gray area on these issues.
And IMHO - there is a big difference between "altered art" cards, and "high res imagery printed out or pasted over a card". The latter shouldn't even be considered "altered art" its "I can use a printer."
I have about 10-15 60 card decks and 2 EDH decks. More in the works. I don't play with any cards I don't own. However, if I have 3 decks that want to run my Taigas, Badlands, or what not, I'll proxy a play set. I'm a strictly casual player. If I ever go into a tournament, you can bet every single card in my deck for that tournament will be the real deal.
Software companies generaly allow you to make a backup of a disk and let you use that back up so the original software can be kept safe. I see no difference keeping my expensive cards safe in a binder while I use proxies on my kitchen table.
I have the real cards to backup, is all my point is. I'm not taking any money out of anyone else's pocket.
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Dwarves and gnomes should take the cool goblin jobs. Goblins have been getting too much love!
Software companies generaly allow you to make a backup of a disk and let you use that back up so the original software can be kept safe. I see no difference keeping my expensive cards safe in a binder while I use proxies on my kitchen table.
I have the real cards to backup, is all my point is. I'm not taking any money out of anyone else's pocket.
WOTC is not a software company though, and whilst you would only be using the methods to use at a kitchen table others are not going to be so scrupulous.
The admin has to look at the long term health of the site and if there is the potential for the site to suffer legal ramifications due to some of its content they have got to impose a hardline that errs on the side of caution. Especially as WOTC/Hasbro has shown that it is very willing to resort to any any all legal means of protecting its IP.
You are an unfortunate bystander caught up in decision that the staff had to take to ensure that this place stays legal and above board.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
So essentially, what's being said is that what I am doing is illegal? Am I to expect some consequences?
Is there a difference if I write "Sneak Attack" on a basic land with a sharpie and throw a piece of paper with my own hand drawn Sneak Attack into a sleeve with a basic land?
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Dwarves and gnomes should take the cool goblin jobs. Goblins have been getting too much love!
But taking WOTC copy-write protected images printing off high quality scans of them sticking them to card stock and then selling them on as real cards? Oh hell yes!
As I said in my first post you might be only using them for personal use at the Kitchen table but the staff have to protect the site from the people I have just described. You are an unfortunate example of collateral damage.
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():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
But taking WOTC copy-write protected images printing off high quality scans of them sticking them to card stock and then selling them on as real cards? Oh hell yes!
I'm not sure what you mean by "selling them on as real cards". I'm not trying to convince anyone that they are real. I'm certainly not selling them for money, or even trading them. The people I play with know I have the real cards. They are fine with it. Some of them do it themselves and they also do not play with cards they don't own.
But what I think you're saying is: if I have printed out a copy with the art, text, frame, etc... of the real card, I'm breaking copyright? Even if I use that copy only on my kitchen table?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Dwarves and gnomes should take the cool goblin jobs. Goblins have been getting too much love!
I'm not sure what you mean by "selling them on as real cards". I'm not trying to convince anyone that they are real. I'm certainly not selling them for money, or even trading them. The people I play with know I have the real cards. They are fine with it. Some of them do it themselves and they also do not play with cards they don't own.
It means pretty much what is says people selling fake cards using techniques that they have gleaned from this site.
Note nowhere have I claimed that this is what you have been doing.
But what I think you're saying is: if I have printed out a copy with the art, text, frame, etc... of the real card, I'm breaking copyright? Even if I use that copy only on my kitchen table?
Yes unless you have WOTC's explicit written permission to use any of the items they have protected in a manner contrary to the manner in which they are intended you are in breach of their copy write.
Unlike software companies that you brought up earlier WOTC have not issued a blanket permission to copy there cards but only for use at the kitchen table.
Are they going to send a goon squad round to kick in your door because you are? No probably not.
If they found a supply chain was deliberately faking their cards and selling them as genuine are they going to have a issue with it? Yes
Is it possible that the fallout from that would affect a website that give instructions on how to fake cards? Yes
Is that a desirable outcome to the site in question? No
I'm really not sure what the issue is here. Nowhere to my knowledge have the staff said that they will hunt down anyone who does use these techniques and point WOTC's lawyers at them.
All they have said is that in order to protect this message board from possible legal implications is discussion of how to produce high quality digital scans is not going to be permitted on this message board anymore.
As I said in my previous post you are an unfortunate bit of collateral damage.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
I'll never understand this attitude. So you don't understand why I don't want you to play with proxies (yep I call them proxies) while have paid a lot of money for my actual cards? If you don't have money for a real dual play with a rav dual. If you don't have money to play with a rav dual go play with painlands. If you don't have money for them go play with basic lands.
And thus, we limit the palette. Disgusting.
Everyone invests some amount of money, whether they started long ago, now. I don't care that I would play with real JTMS's in my EDH games, and others use Proxies (is there really another name for them??).
That's fine and dandy. There are over 12K cards, EDH asks you to select 100(65 or so) of what you may think is the best,etc. So
I implore the use. I support a large EDH circle, and I make it known, for playing a Non-sanctioned CASUAL format. That Proxies, can be, and Should be(if desired) Used. Proxies beyond a basic land and a Sharpie. Nearly everyone I meet, doesn't seem to mind one bit.
So you want others to spend Gratuitous amounts of money on casual format.
Yeah, I don't wish that upon others I would play with. Not unless it was -sanctioned/FNM/Tournament/etc
Its funny we hold these "Prints" of Cardboard in such high value, what we are really discussing is wizards control of an Idea.
You could technically play MTG without any MTG product. It is a set of a system one can control interactions with, other than randomization of game components.
I understand the further development of Proxy making, encourages and compromises the real product. And that is why MTGS needs to keep itself clear of the physical production side.
So you want others to spend Gratuitous amounts of money on casual format.
Yeah, I don't wish that upon others I would play with. Not unless it was -sanctioned/FNM/Tournament/etc
Its funny we hold these "Prints" of Cardboard in such high value, what we are really discussing is wizards control of an Idea.
You could technically play MTG without any MTG product. It is a set of a system one can control interactions with, other than randomization of game components.
Thats the bit.
Why should anyone buy an Enlightened Tutor if your going to take a land and sharpie Enlightened Tutor onto it? Why should anyone work to trade and acquire cards otherwise?
Sure, the game has 12K cards. Yep. And I'm sure theres a lot of cards that a lot of people don't have. Thats not justification to take a basic land and write "Tundra" on it, "Time walk" on the other and "Force of Will" on these lands.
It undermines those who actually own those cards. It compromises the integrity of the game. Its unfair to those who DID collect, trade or purchase those.
I know. I'm not changing your mind any time soon.
I just hate proxies and use thereof, unless its purpose is to keep a power 9 from being worn or damaged.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
Really? Why would posting an image of a proxy be OK? Everytime I've done or seen it done, every single time, it leads to, "How did you make that?". Both in the thread and via PM.
If MTGS has a policy against that discussion, then why enable it at the same time?
As long as you don't answer them on the forums there is no problem. The issue is that MTGS does not want to facilitate discussion on it's forums that tells someone how to print a proxy with copyrighted art. You can post an image of a $20 bill, but will get in trouble for discussing how to print one.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I'd argue that I'd get in plenty of trouble for posting a pic of a $20 bill that I printed.
This will always come up regardless of our measure to prevent them. We are doing the best we can without being draconian & crushing the alter community.
The reason for this interest is that I am a digital artist with little to no skill in paint or ink. But with a lot of interest in doing additional artwork on cards. I apologize if this was discussed already and I missed it (quite a lot to read) but I do not want to do anything on this forum that would jeopardize it. Please let me know if this is a inappropriate topic for this forum and specifically why.
To answer your "specifically why" question, in addition to the issues already discussed here, this technique could just as easily be used to wash the complete art off the Mana Leak and make a high-quality fraudulent version of a much more expensive card. We don't want to provide instructions for doing so.
When we let illegal activities hamper our legal activities something is wrong with the system.
I love custom alt-art.
Anyway, it is analogous to say we shouldn't explain how properly to butcher meat because someone could use those same skills on a human. We shouldn't talk about how to properly wire a circuit because you can use those same skills on a bomb. Forbid we talk about filming for youtube because the same skills can be used to shoot child porn.
I understand that this forum is private property, but surely you can see how reducing civil liberties is a negative thing, right?
One major reason why these techniques are not allowed to be discussed here is that the counterfeiters who would steal the (sickeningly awesome) techniques that would develop if we allowed this wouldn't obey the reasonable restrictions we'd have in place and would sell the things they print on eBay. Given the choice between exposing the site and its owner to potential liability by having publicly accessible tools used to steal from the community, or banning this discussion, we choose to not open the doors to legal problems and to not hand scammers the ability to sell fake foil stuff on eBay.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
Emphasis and changes mine. It's also about what has happened, not just what might happen in the future.
True, what's happened is in the past, we did what we could to put a stop to it, but I for one am sick and tired of finding people on feeBay selling fake cards. They hurt the game, they hurt the value of all of our collections, they hurt everyone.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
Standard: GWRU 4C Collected Company
Modern: GUWRB Bloom Titan
Legacy: BUG SHARDLESS BUG
EDH :
GR BORBORYGMOS ENRAGED
GU PRIME SPEAKER ZEGENA
UWR ZEDRUU THE GREATHEARTED
UBR MISHRA ARTIFICER PRODIGY
B SHEOLDRED WHISPERING ONE
R ASHLING THE PILGRIM
It is not just the view of the forum though.
Its the views and legal statements of WotC.
It would be very bad for MTGS to ignore WotC's statements or violate copyright legalities. Not only at the risk of being shunned by the hand that feeds us, but the possibility of being shut down for breaching copyright laws. Even if your not given a cease and desist court order, your web host can decide your not worth the legal troubles and dump you.
Altered art opens the door for a lot of gray area on these issues.
And IMHO - there is a big difference between "altered art" cards, and "high res imagery printed out or pasted over a card". The latter shouldn't even be considered "altered art" its "I can use a printer."
My Buying Thread
Software companies generaly allow you to make a backup of a disk and let you use that back up so the original software can be kept safe. I see no difference keeping my expensive cards safe in a binder while I use proxies on my kitchen table.
I have the real cards to backup, is all my point is. I'm not taking any money out of anyone else's pocket.
WOTC is not a software company though, and whilst you would only be using the methods to use at a kitchen table others are not going to be so scrupulous.
The admin has to look at the long term health of the site and if there is the potential for the site to suffer legal ramifications due to some of its content they have got to impose a hardline that errs on the side of caution. Especially as WOTC/Hasbro has shown that it is very willing to resort to any any all legal means of protecting its IP.
You are an unfortunate bystander caught up in decision that the staff had to take to ensure that this place stays legal and above board.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
Is there a difference if I write "Sneak Attack" on a basic land with a sharpie and throw a piece of paper with my own hand drawn Sneak Attack into a sleeve with a basic land?
But taking WOTC copy-write protected images printing off high quality scans of them sticking them to card stock and then selling them on as real cards? Oh hell yes!
As I said in my first post you might be only using them for personal use at the Kitchen table but the staff have to protect the site from the people I have just described. You are an unfortunate example of collateral damage.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
I'm not sure what you mean by "selling them on as real cards". I'm not trying to convince anyone that they are real. I'm certainly not selling them for money, or even trading them. The people I play with know I have the real cards. They are fine with it. Some of them do it themselves and they also do not play with cards they don't own.
But what I think you're saying is: if I have printed out a copy with the art, text, frame, etc... of the real card, I'm breaking copyright? Even if I use that copy only on my kitchen table?
It means pretty much what is says people selling fake cards using techniques that they have gleaned from this site.
Note nowhere have I claimed that this is what you have been doing.
Yes unless you have WOTC's explicit written permission to use any of the items they have protected in a manner contrary to the manner in which they are intended you are in breach of their copy write.
Unlike software companies that you brought up earlier WOTC have not issued a blanket permission to copy there cards but only for use at the kitchen table.
Are they going to send a goon squad round to kick in your door because you are? No probably not.
If they found a supply chain was deliberately faking their cards and selling them as genuine are they going to have a issue with it? Yes
Is it possible that the fallout from that would affect a website that give instructions on how to fake cards? Yes
Is that a desirable outcome to the site in question? No
I'm really not sure what the issue is here. Nowhere to my knowledge have the staff said that they will hunt down anyone who does use these techniques and point WOTC's lawyers at them.
All they have said is that in order to protect this message board from possible legal implications is discussion of how to produce high quality digital scans is not going to be permitted on this message board anymore.
As I said in my previous post you are an unfortunate bit of collateral damage.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
And thus, we limit the palette. Disgusting.
Everyone invests some amount of money, whether they started long ago, now. I don't care that I would play with real JTMS's in my EDH games, and others use Proxies (is there really another name for them??).
That's fine and dandy. There are over 12K cards, EDH asks you to select 100(65 or so) of what you may think is the best,etc. So
I implore the use. I support a large EDH circle, and I make it known, for playing a Non-sanctioned CASUAL format. That Proxies, can be, and Should be(if desired) Used. Proxies beyond a basic land and a Sharpie. Nearly everyone I meet, doesn't seem to mind one bit.
So you want others to spend Gratuitous amounts of money on casual format.
Yeah, I don't wish that upon others I would play with. Not unless it was -sanctioned/FNM/Tournament/etc
Its funny we hold these "Prints" of Cardboard in such high value, what we are really discussing is wizards control of an Idea.
You could technically play MTG without any MTG product. It is a set of a system one can control interactions with, other than randomization of game components.
I understand the further development of Proxy making, encourages and compromises the real product. And that is why MTGS needs to keep itself clear of the physical production side.
Thats the bit.
Why should anyone buy an Enlightened Tutor if your going to take a land and sharpie Enlightened Tutor onto it? Why should anyone work to trade and acquire cards otherwise?
Sure, the game has 12K cards. Yep. And I'm sure theres a lot of cards that a lot of people don't have. Thats not justification to take a basic land and write "Tundra" on it, "Time walk" on the other and "Force of Will" on these lands.
It undermines those who actually own those cards. It compromises the integrity of the game. Its unfair to those who DID collect, trade or purchase those.
I know. I'm not changing your mind any time soon.
I just hate proxies and use thereof, unless its purpose is to keep a power 9 from being worn or damaged.
My Buying Thread