Proxies are substitute cards created solely by judges in sanctioned tournaments pursuant to the official tournament rules. These substitutes are allowed when authorized game cards become unplayable during a sanctioned tournament because of damage or excessive wear. Proxies do not include any graphical reproduction of their intended substitutes.
Counterfeits
Counterfeits are copies or reproductions of actual Wizards trading cards, whether or not they are identified as non-genuine. The creation and distribution of counterfeits violate United States and international copyright laws and negatively affects the integrity of Wizards’ trading card games. Counterfeits are strictly prohibited, even for personal, non-commercial use.
As you can see, what we commonly refer to proxies, WotC sees as counterfeiting. In line with this, our rules now clearly state:
Promotion of illegal activity, requesting advice about participation in an illegal activity, or assisting in any illegal activity, including but not limited to unlawful drug use, theft, copyright infringement (this includes downloading, reproducing, soliciting copyrighted material being distributed without permission of the copyright holder [such as printed Magic: the Gathering proxies (playable cards or tokens) which use any of Wizards of the Coast's graphics or illustrations]) is strictly prohibited.
Immediate Banning Offenses:
Proxies (ie Counterfeiting)
Anyone attempting to sell/trade proxies and or reproductions will be automatically banned from MTG Salvation and will be reported to Wizards of the Coast and any appropriate US or foreign law enforcement agencies. There are no exceptions.
If you have any questions or comments, please feel free to post them here. The staff thanks you for your compliance in this matter.
So if we print a card (on regular paper with no back and no possibility to pass it for a real card) for playtesting at home WotC considers it counterfeit?
Zoot... back to post-its
So if we print a card (on regular paper with no back and no possibility to pass it for a real card) for playtesting at home WotC considers it counterfeit?
Zoot... back to post-its
Technically, yes. The reason is that all the various features of the Magic card face (layout, colors, font, mana symbols, etc.) are intellectual property owned by Wizards. That's why using alternate / custom art is still a problem.
Thats a real bummer in regard to tokens. Even a grayscale printout is so much nicer than a glass bead, penny or land with magic marker on it.
Its a push to make you purchase real tokens online. Argh!
On the plus side, it does address sellers who are simply printing out a custom token picture, gluing it to a land card and selling them on ebay as altered art tokens. At least they'd have to start with a genuine token card.
It's one thing to say you can't try to sell your fake cards here. That was probably already illegal. But this reads like you can't even talk about using "proxy" cards - which we now define as counterfeit - and you certainly can't give "advice" about making proxy cards.
Like, don't we have an enormous Altered Art card thread where people proudly display their work and people give tutorials on how to do it? Isn't this illegal under this definition?
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Its a push to make you purchase real tokens online.
Not just tokens, any card. That's what it seems like, anyway.
It's not like we're in a recession or anything, and I totally have the money to basically buy Cawblade.dec every year.
Yeah, yeah, counterfeiting etc I get that. Altered art cards are also screwed, aren't they? What's next, the CCC is gonna get axed entirely? (Overreaction, I know. I'm being facetious.)
Like, don't we have an enormous Altered Art card thread where people proudly display their work and people give tutorials on how to do it? Isn't this illegal under this definition?
I think not; it says counterfeit are copies or reproductions of the original.
Taking a card and painting on it or gluing extra things to it is neither of the above
(And just to clarify my above post) My reference to altered art, was that a lot of Ebay sellers are just mass printing out copies of their cards lately (common in token cards) rather than altering an authentic, original copy.
It's one thing to say you can't try to sell your fake cards here. That was probably already illegal. But this reads like you can't even talk about using "proxy" cards - which we now define as counterfeit - and you certainly can't give "advice" about making proxy cards.
No more advertising vintage proxy tournaments, or talking about proxying a deck to playtest it, or discussing custom art cards (you know, the printouts that cubers like so much). There's going to be so much tiptoeing around these rules, especially considering how draconic the suspension policy is.
The site's community uses 'custom art proxies' quite a lot for things like cubes and EDH deck. I like looking at the different altered art cards that get made from scrubbing a foil card. While I know this is a "cover your ass" policy, I for one think it's ridiculous. I mean, it's not like wizards condones the site anyways (see: massive spoiler page)
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Even if the author is silenced, the performance is stopped, the story will not end.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
Let me clarify some things. Firstly, I'd like to know: if a user here refers to proxies or claims in public that he plays proxies, is it a ban-worthy offence? When new cards are spoiled and are discussed, there is always someone who says that he tests this or that card in a proxie form. What will be with him? Second thing: does this mean that all threads discussing proxies here will be closed? Ask me, I did not participate in them, and don't participate, so I don't care, I just know that some people here will ask you about that anyway. And the last thing: all references and links to all-proxie decks should be deleted by all users and all uploaded pictures from Official Rate my deck thread will be deleted, right?
Thats a real bummer in regard to tokens. Even a grayscale printout is so much nicer than a glass bead, penny or land with magic marker on it.
Its a push to make you purchase real tokens online. Argh!
On the plus side, it does address sellers who are simply printing out a custom token picture, gluing it to a land card and selling them on ebay as altered art tokens. At least they'd have to start with a genuine token card.
You can use 10 cents coins as tokens for 1/1 creatures, 50 cents coins for 2/2 creatures and 1 dollar coins for 3/3 creatures. I hope you don't play W/B spirit deck.
I can see there is a lot of confusion over this issue! Let me try to clarify.
Promotion of illegal activity, requesting advice about participation in an illegal activity, or assisting in any illegal activity, including but not limited to unlawful drug use, theft, copyright infringement (this includes downloading, reproducing, soliciting copyrighted material being distributed without permission of the copyright holder [such as printed Magic: the Gathering proxies (playable cards or tokens) which use any of Wizards of the Coast's graphics or illustrations]) is strictly prohibited.
Printed being the key word here. If you're discussing how to make copies of Ancestral Recall, or who will print for you, or the like, that is going to get you suspended. We're not concerned with digital objects, & have done our best to make those parts of the forums engaging in rendering aware of our expectations.
The ban rule has always been in force, it only ever comes up in Market Street – we're just bringing forward so it is more visible.
As for the 'print a proxy' link on magiccards.info, while owned by the same person as Salvation, we have no control over what is there. We have requested that the link be removed to fall in line with our policies here, but again, we have no control over that domain.
Lastly, while WotC's terminology defines a proxy as "substitute cards created solely by judges in sanctioned tournaments pursuant to the official tournament rules", we aren't using it that way, nor do we expect users to dance around the word.
Please post any further concerns or questions you may have.
What affect do these policies have over homemade tokens using homemade art, or with permission of the illustrator (e.g. Inkwell Looter) ?
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Avid teacher of Magic to new players.
Flavor enthusiast, Storyteller, and Illustrator
Red Blue aligned Mage
I play limited, casual modern, and keep several standard decks on hand.
In process of writing articles about MTG as a subculture delving into it from a sociological standpoint. If you know of a mtg site looking for a column like that, please private message me. Thanks
I am going to say this, in the hopes, that Wizards would ever see it.
Our entire EDH(Commander) Play group uses Proxies.
There are two main uses/functions.
-Style. Sick Art. Beautiful renditions of our favourite spells, or cards. To us, the artwork is narrative to our game play. The artwork serves a storytelling beyond the mechanical interaction. I love the old Fact or Fiction Art. In fact, I own 2 Copies. But in my favourite EDH I use a Proxy, with Art featuring a young woman sleeping on a pile of books, underwater.
-Cost. I do not wan't to fork up hundreds of hundreds of $$ for Alpha Lands, JTMS, or cards like Candlelabra of Tawnos. For a game that holds no Tournament Value. Why in the world, would anyone(anyone not Bill Gates, or John Hammond) spend exuberant amounts of money on EDH? Competitive formats are expensive enough. I own a Playset of Force of Wills, I have Snapcasters. But for heaven's sake, I cannot justify buying Tiagas for EDH.
Magic has over 12k Cards. The game becomes infinitely better, when each player, has access to all of them. An incomplete palette can often be a dull one.
If the card is stupidly expensive, (See Ravnica/Alpha Lands)
Or the Artwork is almost retarded (See Maze of Ith or Clone or Phantasmal Image)
Or the Proxy Art is breathtaking, (See Digital Render Thread)
A proxy will be made. Never for Sale, never for trade.
I am going to say this, in the hopes, that Wizards would ever see it [...]
Magic has over 12k Cards. The game becomes infinitely better, when each player, has access to all of them. An incomplete palette can often be a dull one.
Always For Casual Use.
I agree with the sentiment (back in the late '90s, my casual playgroup used to use proxies counterfeits as a way of supplementing the cards we had with the ones we could never dream of affording (how is a 14 yr old supposed to earn enough money for a Black Lotus?) or even seeing a real copy of--as well as to maintain the value of the more expensive cards we pulled from packs), but you have to remember that Magic isn't really a game the way that we normally think of a game like Scrabble, where everyone owns every piece--it's a Collectible Card Game where players are limited to the cards at their disposal. Wizards is in the business of producing collectible cards--like baseball cards--the "game" is just something optional you can do with the cards (something that happens to adjust the value of the card-value goes up when a lot of people use the same card due to supply and demand, value of the individual card goes down when actually used in a game due to wear and tear). When each player has access to all the cards, collectibility goes out the window and every Black Lotus becomes worth as much as Magosi, the Water Veil. The counterfeit/proxy laws are there to protect players who own the cards (i.e. the secondary market) as much as they are there to protect WotC. Wizards can't regulate what people do behind closed doors, but they can regulate what people do on public forums; and I for one would rather see MTGS stick around for awhile
Like, don't we have an enormous Altered Art card thread where people proudly display their work and people give tutorials on how to do it? Isn't this illegal under this definition?
The Altered Art thread invokes that the altered card is the original. You're painting ~whatever on say, an actual Mana Drain. Therefor the card is not a counterfeit.
TMAP, however, was always in the red area. Whilst a fun and highly visible thread, there was no grey area as to what our intentions were. That's why it's gone, and replaced with the currently low visibility Digital Alters thread.
^^
I've heard the same explanation you give, for the reserved list..
Then you would agree Magic conceptually as a Game though, assumes, that players will utilize any combination of cards?
Collectable is an evil word to methinks. I do though, see your point
But then if people don't sell them(In a perfect world I know), what harm is there?
I can only think of the integrity of the production,(see, Counterfeit Yugioh Cards, Everywhere almost Playable)
Seems like a scale..
What would be good freedom for the game vs what retains value/integrity.
It does seem to be a scale with Collectors (probably not the best terminology-- but think card shops) on one end and Gamers on the other. Gamers think of the game as having 12000 pieces and get the most satisfaction out of being able to use those pieces freely (which requires counterfeiting if they do not have the financial means to procure all 12000 pieces). Collectors see it as having 12000 pieces, with some of them being worth money and others being worth less, so they want the ones that are worth money. Most people fall between the two, recognizing that they can't have all the cards, but they don't need all of them, and spend their money or trade for the ones they do want/need to make the deck that gives them the most satisfaction.
Wizards can't stop people from counterfeiting for personal use on a small scale in the privacy of their own homes (or casual playgroups in which all players consent to let the others use counterfeits too)--it's simply too expensive to enforce. But if they didn't officially prohibit it altogether (not just disallow counterfeits at sanctioned tournaments) then the cards as a whole would lose value (which means it wouldn't continue to be developed and would become static) and the game might eventually just be sold in a box with all the pieces (well, more likely as a video game these days) and that'd be the end of Magic. Unfortunately, one of the results of this kind of prohibition is that it moves counterfeiting underground, where it is no longer self enforced or even discussable in public forums.
Again, I'm not an expert, but to my understanding this is how CCG's differ from games like Dominion or Ascension. It's also why you can see lists of all the cards in Magic posted online--having a counterfeit doesn't do you any good in a tournament or a game at a local card shop--and why I don't think you're allowed to do the same with games like Dominion/Ascension/Munchkin (I could be mistaken), where if you had a list of all the cards, you could just make your own and not pay any money to the creators.
So, this is simply an art issue? If I were to discuss the creation of the proxies I use- which I make on Word with using the text from the cards then glue to regular cards, would that be an issue. The proxies I make look much like the proxies that WotC use for test play (sans all the weird codes on them):
I am generally using them to test or because I have the cards in another deck. I have not been using art or card images for a while (especially with test proxies) as it is expensive to use all the ink, the text is often fuzzy and I find I would prefer a proxy to be easy to read rather than pretty. My cards use no mana symbols, tap symbols, borders, or fonts that are not in the public domain, though I will copy and paste Oracle text to the cards. I cannot imagine such a basic proxy would ever be a topic of conversation, but if it came up would discussion of such a proxy be out of line? What if someone wanted the template I use, could I post a copy of that Word template?
EDIT: How about cards made with MSE? Many of us will make custom cards on MSE that are entierly original in function, but still use the borders, symbols, and background art of genuine MTG cards. If a discussion were to come up about the printing of MSE cards (again, not that I think that likely) would that be in violation?
I'm curious as to whether MTGS has ever actually been contacted by WotC regarding proxies, because this is the only site I've seen that seems to be so worried about it.
Proxies of Reserved List cards don't cost WotC a penny of lost income, because they've already stated that they're never going to produce those cards again. Which also means that the only way to procure a paper version of stuff like alternate art Power 9 is to proxy it. I, for one, would happily purchase "real" versions of those cards, but it isn't an option.
For counterfeit versions of cards that already exist I can certainly understand the concern, but for stuff like the aforementioned alternate art P9 I don't see why WotC would have an issue with it. If they really wanted to make money off of stuff like that they would produce their own versions to sell.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
i would like to post my custom cube for critique and i know more people will look at it and give useful feedback if i include pictures and/or an mse file. is one or both of these against the rules?
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
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For reference, WotC's policy on proxies:
As you can see, what we commonly refer to proxies, WotC sees as counterfeiting. In line with this, our rules now clearly state:
If you have any questions or comments, please feel free to post them here. The staff thanks you for your compliance in this matter.
Zoot... back to post-its
Technically, yes. The reason is that all the various features of the Magic card face (layout, colors, font, mana symbols, etc.) are intellectual property owned by Wizards. That's why using alternate / custom art is still a problem.
"Print Proxies:
[ +1 ] [ +2 ] [ +3 ] [ +4 ] · View · Clear"
EDIT: So does this mean that Vintage tournaments allowing
proxiescounterfeits may no longer be announced on MTGS?Its a push to make you purchase real tokens online. Argh!
On the plus side, it does address sellers who are simply printing out a custom token picture, gluing it to a land card and selling them on ebay as altered art tokens. At least they'd have to start with a genuine token card.
My Buying Thread
Like, don't we have an enormous Altered Art card thread where people proudly display their work and people give tutorials on how to do it? Isn't this illegal under this definition?
Not just tokens, any card. That's what it seems like, anyway.
It's not like we're in a recession or anything, and I totally have the money to basically buy Cawblade.dec every year.
Yeah, yeah, counterfeiting etc I get that. Altered art cards are also screwed, aren't they? What's next, the CCC is gonna get axed entirely? (Overreaction, I know. I'm being facetious.)
--- Meren of Clan Nel Toth --- Jhoira of the Ghitu --- Prime Speaker Zegana ---
--- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief --- Ghoulcaller Gisa --- Akroma, Angel of Fury --- Titania, Protector of Argoth ---
I think not; it says counterfeit are copies or reproductions of the original.
Taking a card and painting on it or gluing extra things to it is neither of the above
(And just to clarify my above post) My reference to altered art, was that a lot of Ebay sellers are just mass printing out copies of their cards lately (common in token cards) rather than altering an authentic, original copy.
My Buying Thread
No more advertising vintage proxy tournaments, or talking about proxying a deck to playtest it, or discussing custom art cards (you know, the printouts that cubers like so much). There's going to be so much tiptoeing around these rules, especially considering how draconic the suspension policy is.
The site's community uses 'custom art proxies' quite a lot for things like cubes and EDH deck. I like looking at the different altered art cards that get made from scrubbing a foil card. While I know this is a "cover your ass" policy, I for one think it's ridiculous. I mean, it's not like wizards condones the site anyways (see: massive spoiler page)
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
You can use 10 cents coins as tokens for 1/1 creatures, 50 cents coins for 2/2 creatures and 1 dollar coins for 3/3 creatures. I hope you don't play W/B spirit deck.
Printed being the key word here. If you're discussing how to make copies of Ancestral Recall, or who will print for you, or the like, that is going to get you suspended. We're not concerned with digital objects, & have done our best to make those parts of the forums engaging in rendering aware of our expectations.
The ban rule has always been in force, it only ever comes up in Market Street – we're just bringing forward so it is more visible.
As for the 'print a proxy' link on magiccards.info, while owned by the same person as Salvation, we have no control over what is there. We have requested that the link be removed to fall in line with our policies here, but again, we have no control over that domain.
Lastly, while WotC's terminology defines a proxy as "substitute cards created solely by judges in sanctioned tournaments pursuant to the official tournament rules", we aren't using it that way, nor do we expect users to dance around the word.
Please post any further concerns or questions you may have.
Avid teacher of Magic to new players.
Flavor enthusiast, Storyteller, and Illustrator
Red Blue aligned Mage
I play limited, casual modern, and keep several standard decks on hand.
In process of writing articles about MTG as a subculture delving into it from a sociological standpoint. If you know of a mtg site looking for a column like that, please private message me. Thanks
As far as I know, WotC owns artwork these days, but regardless, you'd need to be prepared to prove that you are in the legal right.
Our entire EDH(Commander) Play group uses Proxies.
There are two main uses/functions.
-Style. Sick Art. Beautiful renditions of our favourite spells, or cards. To us, the artwork is narrative to our game play. The artwork serves a storytelling beyond the mechanical interaction. I love the old Fact or Fiction Art. In fact, I own 2 Copies. But in my favourite EDH I use a Proxy, with Art featuring a young woman sleeping on a pile of books, underwater.
-Cost. I do not wan't to fork up hundreds of hundreds of $$ for Alpha Lands, JTMS, or cards like Candlelabra of Tawnos. For a game that holds no Tournament Value. Why in the world, would anyone(anyone not Bill Gates, or John Hammond) spend exuberant amounts of money on EDH? Competitive formats are expensive enough. I own a Playset of Force of Wills, I have Snapcasters. But for heaven's sake, I cannot justify buying Tiagas for EDH.
Magic has over 12k Cards. The game becomes infinitely better, when each player, has access to all of them. An incomplete palette can often be a dull one.
If the card is stupidly expensive, (See Ravnica/Alpha Lands)
Or the Artwork is almost retarded (See Maze of Ith or Clone or Phantasmal Image)
Or the Proxy Art is breathtaking, (See Digital Render Thread)
A proxy will be made. Never for Sale, never for trade.
Always For Casual Use.
I agree with the sentiment (back in the late '90s, my casual playgroup used to use
proxiescounterfeits as a way of supplementing the cards we had with the ones we could never dream of affording (how is a 14 yr old supposed to earn enough money for a Black Lotus?) or even seeing a real copy of--as well as to maintain the value of the more expensive cards we pulled from packs), but you have to remember that Magic isn't really a game the way that we normally think of a game like Scrabble, where everyone owns every piece--it's a Collectible Card Game where players are limited to the cards at their disposal. Wizards is in the business of producing collectible cards--like baseball cards--the "game" is just something optional you can do with the cards (something that happens to adjust the value of the card-value goes up when a lot of people use the same card due to supply and demand, value of the individual card goes down when actually used in a game due to wear and tear). When each player has access to all the cards, collectibility goes out the window and every Black Lotus becomes worth as much as Magosi, the Water Veil. The counterfeit/proxy laws are there to protect players who own the cards (i.e. the secondary market) as much as they are there to protect WotC. Wizards can't regulate what people do behind closed doors, but they can regulate what people do on public forums; and I for one would rather see MTGS stick around for awhileThe Altered Art thread invokes that the altered card is the original. You're painting ~whatever on say, an actual Mana Drain. Therefor the card is not a counterfeit.
TMAP, however, was always in the red area. Whilst a fun and highly visible thread, there was no grey area as to what our intentions were. That's why it's gone, and replaced with the currently low visibility Digital Alters thread.
^^
I've heard the same explanation you give, for the reserved list..
Then you would agree Magic conceptually as a Game though, assumes, that players will utilize any combination of cards?
Collectable is an evil word to methinks. I do though, see your point
But then if people don't sell them(In a perfect world I know), what harm is there?
I can only think of the integrity of the production,(see, Counterfeit Yugioh Cards, Everywhere almost Playable)
Seems like a scale..
What would be good freedom for the game vs what retains value/integrity.
It does seem to be a scale with Collectors (probably not the best terminology-- but think card shops) on one end and Gamers on the other. Gamers think of the game as having 12000 pieces and get the most satisfaction out of being able to use those pieces freely (which requires counterfeiting if they do not have the financial means to procure all 12000 pieces). Collectors see it as having 12000 pieces, with some of them being worth money and others being worth less, so they want the ones that are worth money. Most people fall between the two, recognizing that they can't have all the cards, but they don't need all of them, and spend their money or trade for the ones they do want/need to make the deck that gives them the most satisfaction.
Wizards can't stop people from counterfeiting for personal use on a small scale in the privacy of their own homes (or casual playgroups in which all players consent to let the others use counterfeits too)--it's simply too expensive to enforce. But if they didn't officially prohibit it altogether (not just disallow counterfeits at sanctioned tournaments) then the cards as a whole would lose value (which means it wouldn't continue to be developed and would become static) and the game might eventually just be sold in a box with all the pieces (well, more likely as a video game these days) and that'd be the end of Magic. Unfortunately, one of the results of this kind of prohibition is that it moves counterfeiting underground, where it is no longer self enforced or even discussable in public forums.
Again, I'm not an expert, but to my understanding this is how CCG's differ from games like Dominion or Ascension. It's also why you can see lists of all the cards in Magic posted online--having a counterfeit doesn't do you any good in a tournament or a game at a local card shop--and why I don't think you're allowed to do the same with games like Dominion/Ascension/Munchkin (I could be mistaken), where if you had a list of all the cards, you could just make your own and not pay any money to the creators.
I am generally using them to test or because I have the cards in another deck. I have not been using art or card images for a while (especially with test proxies) as it is expensive to use all the ink, the text is often fuzzy and I find I would prefer a proxy to be easy to read rather than pretty. My cards use no mana symbols, tap symbols, borders, or fonts that are not in the public domain, though I will copy and paste Oracle text to the cards. I cannot imagine such a basic proxy would ever be a topic of conversation, but if it came up would discussion of such a proxy be out of line? What if someone wanted the template I use, could I post a copy of that Word template?
EDIT: How about cards made with MSE? Many of us will make custom cards on MSE that are entierly original in function, but still use the borders, symbols, and background art of genuine MTG cards. If a discussion were to come up about the printing of MSE cards (again, not that I think that likely) would that be in violation?
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
What you've posted is well within the bounds of our perimeter of concern
Proxies of Reserved List cards don't cost WotC a penny of lost income, because they've already stated that they're never going to produce those cards again. Which also means that the only way to procure a paper version of stuff like alternate art Power 9 is to proxy it. I, for one, would happily purchase "real" versions of those cards, but it isn't an option.
For counterfeit versions of cards that already exist I can certainly understand the concern, but for stuff like the aforementioned alternate art P9 I don't see why WotC would have an issue with it. If they really wanted to make money off of stuff like that they would produce their own versions to sell.
Which of these would be bannable/suspendable:
A counterfeit of the card, exactly as the official card appears
A counterfeit that uses different artwork, but is a real card
A counterfeit that is neither a real card, or uses official artwork (ie. a bluefin tuna token)