The real issue in the minds of the staff, it seems to me, is whether the preservation of the gutter community and the enjoyment that it brings its members is outweighed by the abrasiveness that can be directed at new users attempting to join there.
The Abrasiveness earned when they Post and ignore the Sticky Called "attn: everyone who just got let into the gutter" And "Gutter Rules (condensed for ^_^ness)"
I don't think anyone is concerned about the gutter hazing its own established members
Obviously they are.
- its the newbies walking in like lambs to the slaughter.
Who ignore about stickies and get punished.
Alternately, you could also try making the vetting process for admitting gutter users much more in-depth, before they're ever exposed to the gutter and expected to sink, swim, or GTFO.
Like being forced to Prove they are +18 and Stickies that Tell them what to Expect?
Your analogy doesn't work because "Swim" means do nothing.
With a bit more of an in-depth questionnaire or interview process, I'm sure the gutter could decide easily enough beforehand whether someone's personality is really a good fit for them, before it ever reached the point where they're trying to haze them out of the gutter.
How is this different from a Thread for new Gutter Members?
Imagine you're a newer member, happy with the forums, posting and doing your thing. You hear about a hidden part of the forum and you're curious so you request membership. You finally get in and you find what is essentially a cyberspace frat house. It's not pleasant and you don't really know how to fit in and when you try to post, you're just jumped on by the members that have been there a while. Eventually, they make a thread with a poll to vote to keep or eject you and after a few more insults, you get Survivored out. Would that leave you with a positive image of Salvation as a whole?
I'm not sure what sort of precedent there is for that, nor am I inclined to explore it since it's not really the point of this thread. But I would argue that the Gutter, in this case, actually is emblematic of the problem. Certainly not the cause, nor the only source, but if the administration wants to reduce that sort of behavior, the Gutter is the logical place to start.
Really? A subforum most of them don't read and most of the contributors to which don't carry onto the main forum? Not one they read very likely every day with examples they may even actively contribute?
I don't see anything particularly wrong with that. It's idealistic, but certainly noble. It's an ideological extension of how things have always tried to be around here. I mean, we never banned any of the ****ty posters in the 'Mill for being ****ty, as long as they followed the rules they were tolerated.
That's a pretty good one, but do you have any of the ones you told in the The User X Is A ****ing Idiot Thread? I'm sure those ones are riots.
Interesting where this feels more like Mods stiring the ####pot and saying its closed cause the others did it. Seriously what in bloody hell decided this must be done now?
If the general reason is cause it doesnt benefit a mtg site then the following should maybe be slashed on the chopping block as they dont benefit the MTG side:
The entire Outside Magic
And some sub sections Creativity
Granted even that feels wrong to do due to peoples time invested in those sections. But hey its only fair if there is a site rebranding am I right?
But I'll outright say what i truely think. Certain people that were anti to that forum finally got into power... And used it outright to do what they wanted. Removing it from use. While keeping there Nitched areas alive and well. As much as I dont talk to most of the people that i used to and even dont agree with they didnt deserve this at all and a betrayal of this level basicly ensured the rules themselves are not an issue its the ones who enforced them. Being a former mod..... Yous sicken me to no end and glad even more I left.
Infractions for gossiping or complaining behind people's backs in the gutter? No, I'm not aware of any infractions for that.
If you want to take the sentence out of context, sure, the gutter's been dinged plenty of times for things said in the gutter that related to supposed misconduct outside the gutter.
Do I still think both ought to go? Yes. But you don't have much of a hypocrisy argument against them, because this isn't why the gutter is being closed.
Really? A subforum most of them don't read and most of the contributors to which don't carry onto the main forum? Not one they read very likely every day with examples they may even actively contribute?
Yeah, the one with years of rather public displays of poor, intolerant behavior.
That's a pretty good one, but do you have any of the ones you told in the The User X Is A ****ing Idiot Thread? I'm sure those ones are riots.
Of course, Survivors are only one way a user can leave the Gutter.
I haven't seen a survivor thread in at least three years mikey, so please stop stirring a crap pot and posting obviously false information. It does not help the topic at hand.
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Quote from "Megiddo" »
i like banning people because it makes people I don't like go away
I haven't seen a survivor thread in at least three years mikey, so please stop stirring a crap pot and posting obviously false information.
Memory's a bit hazy, but I thought there were some last year before I left. Meh, it'll all come out in the wash when the forum is put on ice.
It does not help the topic at hand.
I think my original point (that users were bullied out of the Gutter - Survivor or no) was entirely on topic. Questioning me about the number of Survivors lately wasn't helping the topic at hand.
Also the joke is that none of the staff would have even thought cyberbullying was anything more than a joke (rianalnn's words) were it not for me raising such a stink about it.
The punchline is the staff has some moral, ethical, and hypocrisy issues that it can't work out because it's becoming the same kind of groupthink it frequently harasses the Gutter for being.
I don't own a drum kit, but you get the gist.
As someone who was directly involved in the cyberbullying incident to which you're referring, I believe this is an inaccurate and unfair generalization. I know for a fact that some staff members (myself included) realized that thread was a problem and needed to be dealt with in a serious manner.
I haven't seen a survivor thread in at least three years mikey, so please stop stirring a crap pot and posting obviously false information. It does not help the topic at hand.
There was one last year, shortly after NS invited anyone to join. I remember because I voted for myself and was removed.
LOL MikeyG used to love the gutter until he got **** on by us for being a turncoat. Nothing he said should even be taken as relevant to this situation, he's a crotchety and biased fart.
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Most of the gutterite posts here put me in mind of a dog that's been kicked one too many times. And feral dogs get put down, regardless of whether they deserved it.
You'd have been better off taking the high road. I'm not persuaded that anyone's going off the deep end - deleting posts as an abuse of power? Voting someone out of a clan? Come on. If you keep walking down this road, you're done for. It wouldn't surprise me after all you've been through that sucking it up for another run down the gauntlet feels hopeless, but you managed to survive far more hostile administrations than this one in the past by biting your tongues and standing for actual principles.
This? This just reads like lashing out.
When cooperation and reason doesn't work time and time again, why should we continue pursuing it? Like seriously dude? Seriously? Cmon Az, you should be able to analyze the entirity of this situation better than that.
So your end-game is what, to trade the entire gutter for a mod lounge thread that's not even heavily used? And maybe clean up the GRR thread?
This is how the staff views the situation:
"I complain to coworkers in the breakroom about terrible/stupid/rude customers. I do not go up to terrible/stupid/rude customers and ridicule them to their faces until they leave."
I don't see you being successful in changing their minds.
This analogy doesn't really hold up either. Just so you know, the gutter is closer to the bureacratic military complex than a privatized business.
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LOL MikeyG used to love the gutter until he got **** on by us for being a turncoat. Nothing he said should even be taken as relevant to this situation, he's a crotchety and biased fart.
If that is the case, how can anything said from a "Gutter Member" be taken as unbiased on the other end? He is as entitled to his opinion, as much as you are.
If that is the case, how can anything said from a "Gutter Member" be taken as unbiased on the other end? He is as entitled to his opinion, as much as you are.
You are missing the point. MikeyG went from being pro gutter for a long time to being a butt hurt fart once he turncoated us and we told him to **** off. I'm not saying biased opinions such as logicX should be disallowed, just MikeyG's in particular, as he has an axe to grind and is nothing more than a biased fart, as I have said.
Thank you for attempting to mafia game argue with me, but I do not care to hear you try to overlogic a situation you obviously (by your inability to know that MikeyG is a biased fart) do not have much knowledge of as far as the sythesis of mikeyg's opinions with the gutter and his butthurt are concerned.
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Basically what I see here is the same arguments that we have decided time and time again in these sorts of threads are invalid, only this time the admins have chosen a new piece of crap reason to try and dress up their true intentions, which is addedly hilarious as everyone knows what the **** their true intentions are, even the people who support this decision.
TL:DR: the staff are testicleless swine.
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You are missing the point. MikeyG went from being pro gutter for a long time to being a butt hurt fart once he turncoated us and we told him to **** off. I'm not saying biased opinions such as logicX should be disallowed, just MikeyG's in particular, as he has an axe to grind and is nothing more than a biased fart, as I have said.
I recognize he doesn't like the gutter. I was a member, and remember reading an exchange between him, Kijiin, TFO, and a few others. My point is that on the other hand of the spectrum, clearly some of you love the gutter just as much as Mikey hates it, as I can only assume why some have become quite bold in this thread.
Thank you for attempting to mafia game argue with me, but I do not care to hear you try to overlogic a situation you obviously (by your inability to know that MikeyG is a biased fart) do not have much knowledge of as far as the sythesis of mikeyg's opinions with the gutter and his butthurt are concerned.
I am not as in the dark, as you may think. And as much as I dislike what the Gutter is, and the privilege of having a staff privacy, similar to GRRR and all that, am I not biased myself because I would prefer to let the gutter stick around?
I recognize he doesn't like the gutter. I was a member, and remember reading an exchange between him, Kijiin, TFO, and a few others. My point is that on the other hand of the spectrum, clearly some of you love the gutter just as much as Mikey hates it, as I can only assume why some have become quite bold in this thread.
I am not as in the dark, as you may think. And as much as I dislike what the Gutter is, and the privilege of having a staff privacy, similar to GRRR and all that, am I not biased myself because I would prefer to let the gutter stick around?
Yes, we're all biased one way or another. My point is mikeyg is trying to throw his weight and influence around, and that nobody should pay attention to him and his sore rear. You almost agree with me and vice versa. Almost.
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I am going to hold off on the main argument till I get some sleep an re-read this but the idea that the gutter is being released to the public in an attempt to reduce drama and the effects of cyber bullying is ****ing hilarious, I mean how does that solve anything? either way this goes the gutter should never be made public to non-members. Absolutely insane.
Yeah but we don't have them in the gutter. It's a staff thread. This is part of our point.
We are scapegoats.
I resent a large portion of the former senior administrative staff for the negativity that they condoned and themselves disseminated. They made too many personal exceptions and not enough people spoke out against their disparaging behavior. It was not OK. This built up to controversies such as "Sakura" that were at least partly their own doing.
I believe, however, it's never too late to do the right thing and I applaud the current administration for finally seriously addressing the issue of fostering a positive community. I hope that the staff could put down its own "hate" thread as an act of good faith.
I resent a large portion of the former senior administrative staff for the negativity that they condoned and themselves disseminated. They made too many personal exceptions and not enough people spoke out against their disparaging behavior. It was not OK. This built up to controversies such as "Sakura" that were at least partly their own doing.
I believe, however, it's never too late to do the right thing and I applaud the current administration for finally seriously addressing the issue of fostering a positive community. I hope that the staff could put down its own "hate" thread as an act of good faith.
So it is ok for the mods to bash other users? Got it. Thanks buddy!
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Quote from "Megiddo" »
i like banning people because it makes people I don't like go away
Good call, seems like a cesspool if you ask me. The unrestricted vileness that generally results from the anonymity of the interwebs is magnified in a place like this, and frankly it has no place here. Open a thread on 4chan or something.
The Abrasiveness earned when they Post and ignore the Sticky Called "attn: everyone who just got let into the gutter" And "Gutter Rules (condensed for ^_^ness)"
Obviously they are.
Who ignore about stickies and get punished.
Like being forced to Prove they are +18 and Stickies that Tell them what to Expect?
Your analogy doesn't work because "Swim" means do nothing.
How is this different from a Thread for new Gutter Members?
V
This is a Goddamn Joke Right?
Are you Kidding Az?
When was the Last Survivor Mike?
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Really? A subforum most of them don't read and most of the contributors to which don't carry onto the main forum? Not one they read very likely every day with examples they may even actively contribute?
That's a pretty good one, but do you have any of the ones you told in the The User X Is A ****ing Idiot Thread? I'm sure those ones are riots.
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A truly great petition
If the general reason is cause it doesnt benefit a mtg site then the following should maybe be slashed on the chopping block as they dont benefit the MTG side:
The entire Outside Magic
And some sub sections Creativity
Granted even that feels wrong to do due to peoples time invested in those sections. But hey its only fair if there is a site rebranding am I right?
But I'll outright say what i truely think. Certain people that were anti to that forum finally got into power... And used it outright to do what they wanted. Removing it from use. While keeping there Nitched areas alive and well. As much as I dont talk to most of the people that i used to and even dont agree with they didnt deserve this at all and a betrayal of this level basicly ensured the rules themselves are not an issue its the ones who enforced them. Being a former mod..... Yous sicken me to no end and glad even more I left.
Infractions for gossiping or complaining behind people's backs in the gutter? No, I'm not aware of any infractions for that.
If you want to take the sentence out of context, sure, the gutter's been dinged plenty of times for things said in the gutter that related to supposed misconduct outside the gutter.
Do I still think both ought to go? Yes. But you don't have much of a hypocrisy argument against them, because this isn't why the gutter is being closed.
Wouldn't know, haven't been in the Gutter since I left a year ago. Of course, Survivors are only one way a user can leave the Gutter.
Yeah, the one with years of rather public displays of poor, intolerant behavior.
Probably.
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Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
I haven't seen a survivor thread in at least three years mikey, so please stop stirring a crap pot and posting obviously false information. It does not help the topic at hand.
www.diestoremoval.com
A truly great petition
Memory's a bit hazy, but I thought there were some last year before I left. Meh, it'll all come out in the wash when the forum is put on ice.
I think my original point (that users were bullied out of the Gutter - Survivor or no) was entirely on topic. Questioning me about the number of Survivors lately wasn't helping the topic at hand.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
As someone who was directly involved in the cyberbullying incident to which you're referring, I believe this is an inaccurate and unfair generalization. I know for a fact that some staff members (myself included) realized that thread was a problem and needed to be dealt with in a serious manner.
Edit:
There was one last year, shortly after NS invited anyone to join. I remember because I voted for myself and was removed.
When cooperation and reason doesn't work time and time again, why should we continue pursuing it? Like seriously dude? Seriously? Cmon Az, you should be able to analyze the entirity of this situation better than that.
This analogy doesn't really hold up either. Just so you know, the gutter is closer to the bureacratic military complex than a privatized business.
If that is the case, how can anything said from a "Gutter Member" be taken as unbiased on the other end? He is as entitled to his opinion, as much as you are.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
You are missing the point. MikeyG went from being pro gutter for a long time to being a butt hurt fart once he turncoated us and we told him to **** off. I'm not saying biased opinions such as logicX should be disallowed, just MikeyG's in particular, as he has an axe to grind and is nothing more than a biased fart, as I have said.
Thank you for attempting to mafia game argue with me, but I do not care to hear you try to overlogic a situation you obviously (by your inability to know that MikeyG is a biased fart) do not have much knowledge of as far as the sythesis of mikeyg's opinions with the gutter and his butthurt are concerned.
TL:DR: the staff are testicleless swine.
I recognize he doesn't like the gutter. I was a member, and remember reading an exchange between him, Kijiin, TFO, and a few others. My point is that on the other hand of the spectrum, clearly some of you love the gutter just as much as Mikey hates it, as I can only assume why some have become quite bold in this thread.
I am not as in the dark, as you may think. And as much as I dislike what the Gutter is, and the privilege of having a staff privacy, similar to GRRR and all that, am I not biased myself because I would prefer to let the gutter stick around?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Yes, we're all biased one way or another. My point is mikeyg is trying to throw his weight and influence around, and that nobody should pay attention to him and his sore rear. You almost agree with me and vice versa. Almost.
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Yeah but we don't have them in the gutter. It's a staff thread. This is part of our point.
We are scapegoats.
Please don't use "the thread will die on its own" approach on this one. I know all about it.
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I believe, however, it's never too late to do the right thing and I applaud the current administration for finally seriously addressing the issue of fostering a positive community. I hope that the staff could put down its own "hate" thread as an act of good faith.
COME ON OUT SENE! YOU ARE TOP ADMIN! COME TALK TO THE FORUM!
We need a better way to talk with the mods and admins but they don't think they should be held accountable for their actions. Votan proved this.
www.diestoremoval.com
A truly great petition
So it is ok for the mods to bash other users? Got it. Thanks buddy!
www.diestoremoval.com
A truly great petition
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