Yes, because mods should be above the rules... -.-'
While I take no stance regarding the Gutter and shutting it down, I hope this statement is being made a bit too broadly and isn't an accurate representation of how staff view themselves.
I can understand certain aspects and discussions by the staff of the site being "protected", the idea that staff are somehow above the rules is very questionable to me.
And NO!!! The staff is NOT above the rules. Just as they must enforce the rules of this, they should also be expected to follow the rules as well. That ideology the is the exact reason this claim is being thrown out there by (N_S).
To be clear, when I joined the staff and saw the old "complain about user x" thread, I thought it was in incredibly bad taste, and unprofessional. It wasn't enough of an issue and seldom-enough used that it never made my hit list, but I think there's some merit to the idea that that sort of thing should probably go down in flames.
However, I really don't think you're going to score any points arguing that there's a valid hypocrisy argument here. The behavior the moderators are targeting here is hazing someone out of a thread to their virtual face. The gutter has had a long history of talking about people behind their backs - and that's never been something the staff has been concerned about. They've applied the same standard to the gutter as themselves. But when that comes out into the open and you're actually trying to kick someone out of a section of a site by insulting them to their face, then no, there's some reasons to distinguish those two things as different.
Personally, I don't have much use for either of them, but the staff has been consistent in drawing that line between the two.
If you want to fight this, you need to argue it on the merits, or find an alternative that will be acceptable to the staff. Insulting them and their motivations will get you nowhere.
The gutter can't be seen by anyone other than it's members. How is that damaging to the site in any way?
Imagine you're a newer member, happy with the forums, posting and doing your thing. You hear about a hidden part of the forum and you're curious so you request membership. You finally get in and you find what is essentially a cyberspace frat house. It's not pleasant and you don't really know how to fit in and when you try to post, you're just jumped on by the members that have been there a while. Eventually, they make a thread with a poll to vote to keep or eject you and after a few more insults, you get Survivored out. Would that leave you with a positive image of Salvation as a whole?
You and I may not see it as a big deal, but the staff clearly doesn't like the idea that by allowing the Gutter to stay they're implicitly condoning situations like that. And if the staff is committed to moving the site in a more inclusive, tolerant place, I can see this as a necessary move for them. Absolutely.
Personally, I still have a lingering attitude of posters needing to sink or swim and I don't much care if their feelings get hurt because someone said something bad about them in the Gutter. But I'm an *******, and *******s don't run the site anymore.
The things written in the gutter pale in comparison with all the trash talk that was going around there concerning LogicX, mystery45, Scandic et al.
Tolerance = only what the mod tolerates or agree's with.
never been to the gutter never even a part of the gutter. If it was to actually police the site i would agree that it should stay. if it is there to insult other members then well that is a different story.
There is no one here as oversight on the Mods or admins of this site. the issue is that the owner has taken such a hands off approach.
And I write in orange, because I can, basically
actually i do believe one of the rules for the forum says that you are required to type in a font that people can easily read. that orange hurts the eyes. if it was darker not that much of a problem.
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The reason I insist on raising this banner is that this occurs at a time where there have been exactly 0 issues pertaining to the gutter for months, and that this closure happens at a time where we were discussing the sitewide (perceived) unethical actions of rianalnn behind closed doors. Maybe it even the thread I made in CI where I suggested increasing the number of admins even played a part in it? I dunno.
While it is not outside the realm of the mathematical probabilities that this is nothing more than a coincidence, I am a tad unsettled by this. I cannot shake the impression that we are witnessing another witch hunt like the one that occurred recently in the Called clan (which even forced expelled members to make a new clan).
Again, I admit that I have no way in getting in other people's minds and establish whether these reasonings for the shutdown are coming from the realm of sincerity (albeit a misguided one), but I cannot help it, I'm not a man to believe in coincidences.
This said I'm open to be convinced otherwise, if sound reasonings for this extemporaneous and seemingly suspicious shutdown are presented.
If you're trying to trace this back to cause and effect, I'd say it's much more likely to have something to do with Viper coming on board beside Rian.
Rian isn't corrupt. He has principles, and he cares about them, and he fights for them, because he thinks they'll make things better. Same goes for Viper, and Sene.
And no, I don't think your suggestion of adding more admins was taken badly. I followed the mod reaction to that in GRR a little bit, and while it was thought that you made your point a bit awkwardly, it was also thought there could be some merit to it.
I'm sorry, but I didn't see any sarcasm intended from your post. In context, it seemed that your statement was being presented at face value. Of course, looking back, I can see the smiley. Mea culpa.
Either way, I appreciate you clarifying your comment.
So it isn't enough for Rianalnn to delete the posts that reveal him for the lifeless swine that he is, now he has to delete every sub-forum that makes note of it?
Votan, I'm sorry but I can't read what you have to say on this matter so i'm going to disregard what you say until you choose a different color. I'm sorry.
Onto the topic at hand: I don't even think us Gutter users where even starting anything and just cracking up on each other like a group of friends. Which, from reading the posts of other members of the Gutter about the mods and admins of this site are all of Rianalnn, who seemed to not like us at all.
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So it isn't enough for Rianalnn to delete the posts that reveal him for the lifeless swine that he is, now he has to delete every sub-forum that makes note of it?
Madding, man, is that necessary or productive? You know I have nothing but love for you, but come on.
So basically, "We'd" need to argue our point in a context bearing some similarities to this trial? Seems an uphill battle if you ask me. Its evident that the people responsible for this has already made up their mind, so they preemptively started this thread as an effort to deliver a fake impression of transparency. This said nothing that will be said here is likely to change the near-future course of events. I'd be willing to bet money on this.
It's easy in the heat of a moment to lose faith in people, and fail to see them for who they are. But the truth is, there are fewer demons in the world than there are ordinary people and angels. And ordinary people can often be reasoned with. They usually don't set out to screw with you just because they feel like it. They generally try to do what they think is the right thing. If your ideas about that differ from theirs, you have to find a way to try to line them up.
I don't see any reason why the alternatives I suggested in my first post in this thread wouldn't work. But if you're more interested in making Rian and co. out to be bad, evil people or proto-Nazis...*shrugs* Then I guess you're screwed.
Maybe you're right, Azrael, but then again, since I've already made the foray into Godwin's law, I'll quote you this classic Leipzig trial statement from Dimitrov:
"Herr President, if you were a man as innocent as myself and you have passed seven months in prison, five of them in chains night and day, you would understand it if one perhaps becomes a little strained."
Sorry about being a little vehement, but I'm starting to get tired of defending myself and my community every other new Moon, as if we were MTGS stepchild or something.
I remember the years when it felt like the mafia subforum was standing alone against the weight of the entire administration. It does get old. And you folks in the gutter have had it much, much worse.
I remember the years when it felt like the mafia subforum was standing alone against the weight of the entire administration. It does get old. And you folks in the gutter have had it much, much worse.
it seems as though a larger admin team would help prevent things like this.
Didn't see it. And I don't need to have a discussion. I have stated my opinion, have heard some other opinions. Agree with some (and will act on what I agree with) and don't agree with others. But now it's time for me to step down from this discussion and listen (well, read). That's the way to know if I'm comfortable with my own opinion
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Mmm. From posts here alone, sounds like this sub forum was a mean spirited place where MTGS users could openly post trash about other users. Sounds like a good move to address the atmosphere here.
The gutter can't be seen by anyone other than it's members. How is that damaging to the site in any way?
For a long time, our guild had such a clique that would spend night after night in their own vent channel, talking bad about the rest of the guild, *****ing about management and complaining about other people.
That kind of behavior is contagious and creates a very negative atmosphere. It eventually spread so far among members that it split the guild right down the middle. All because of some petty dislikes and personal drama that spilled over into the entire guild, since these 10 people hate those 10 people who hate these other 10 people now. Any 'new' member of the guild was forced to reckon with the atmosphere it created, especially if comments came their direction.
The reason I insist on raising this banner is that this occurs at a time where there have been exactly 0 issues pertaining to the gutter for months,
Maybe not, but theres been a lot of posts in the community forums about the negative atmospheres roaming around MTGS.
While most of the community here is oblivious to the happenings in the Mod Lounge, the moderation of this site is far from tolerant. The amount of infractions....not warnings....but infractions that are given on a daily basis on this site is proof that tolerance is not the culture of this site.
I notice the bulk of infractions you see in posts are for dumb things, like double bumping your thread too soon. Not infractions for REAL things, like dbaggery, hostile comments, racist remarks, sly insults, ownage of newbs.
Mmm. From posts here alone, sounds like this sub forum was a mean spirited place where MTGS users could openly post trash about other users. Sounds like a good move to address the atmosphere here.
For a long time, our guild had such a clique that would spend night after night in their own vent channel, talking bad about the rest of the guild, *****ing about management and complaining about other people.
That kind of behavior is contagious and creates a very negative atmosphere. It eventually spread so far among members that it split the guild right down the middle. All because of some petty dislikes and personal drama that spilled over into the entire guild, since these 10 people hate those 10 people who hate these other 10 people now. Any 'new' member of the guild was forced to reckon with the atmosphere it created, especially if comments came their direction.
Maybe not, but theres been a lot of posts in the community forums about the negative atmospheres roaming around MTGS.
I notice the bulk of infractions you see in posts are for dumb things, like double bumping your thread too soon. Not infractions for REAL things, like dbaggery, hostile comments, racist remarks, sly insults, ownage of newbs.
I do make a safeguard for it no tto be retroactive, since some posts were made under the assumption that they'd be private and that may cause issues. I don't have a specific example, but doing it this way would add transparency while preventing problem with the disclosure.
Oh, like how the Gutter posts currently not permissible were made under the assumption they'd be private? That sort of is completely contradictory.
Oh, and don't diss the GRRR. It's all fun and games. A place where mods (and ex-mods) go to relax. That's it. It does not share the influence or exposure the Gutter has.. You can verify that by the simple fact that most people that read this thread know what the Gutter is, but there's a lot that don't know what the GRR is...
Oh, and don't diss the Gutter. It's all fun and games. A place where gutter users (and ex-mods) go to relax. That's it. It does not share influence or exposure the Staff has... you can verify that by the simple fact that most people that read this thread know what the Gutter is, but there's a lot that don't know what the GRR is...
If we're making the Gutter a public issue, it's high time the Staff equivalent had the same treatment. And don't bull**** me, votan, I was a staff member for 7 years. I've seen what staff and ex-staff talk about in there, and it's only marginally cleaner than most discussions in the Gutter, in regards to the bullying/anti-user mindset the Gutter is being shut down over.
Question: How do the users benefit from having the Gutter hosted on MTGS?
Question: How do the users benefit from having the GRR thread hosted on MTGS?
Edit: Thanks gaea's regent for bringing up the "The User 'X' is a [censored] Idiot Thread" Thread. Let's put that on the table too, since we're worried about bullying people behind their backs.
I would be interested to see the staff's rationale for removing The Gutter but keeping this "Grr" thread or whatever it is that's for mods only. If one is negative and toxic to the site, isn't the other? If one is just a place to go vent amongst like-minded people, isn't the other?
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If you're trying to trace this back to cause and effect, I'd say it's much more likely to have something to do with Viper coming on board beside Rian.
Rian isn't corrupt. He has principles, and he cares about them, and he fights for them, because he thinks they'll make things better. Same goes for Viper, and Sene.
His principles include deleting posts that speak ill of him in public discussions when he has the power to and lynching the overwhelming majority of his clanmates in a paranoid power trip. I sure think this site is better for it and I would thank those posts, were the posts not deleted without warning.
While I take no stance regarding the Gutter and shutting it down, I hope this statement is being made a bit too broadly and isn't an accurate representation of how staff view themselves.
I can understand certain aspects and discussions by the staff of the site being "protected", the idea that staff are somehow above the rules is very questionable to me.
To be clear, when I joined the staff and saw the old "complain about user x" thread, I thought it was in incredibly bad taste, and unprofessional. It wasn't enough of an issue and seldom-enough used that it never made my hit list, but I think there's some merit to the idea that that sort of thing should probably go down in flames.
However, I really don't think you're going to score any points arguing that there's a valid hypocrisy argument here. The behavior the moderators are targeting here is hazing someone out of a thread to their virtual face. The gutter has had a long history of talking about people behind their backs - and that's never been something the staff has been concerned about. They've applied the same standard to the gutter as themselves. But when that comes out into the open and you're actually trying to kick someone out of a section of a site by insulting them to their face, then no, there's some reasons to distinguish those two things as different.
Personally, I don't have much use for either of them, but the staff has been consistent in drawing that line between the two.
If you want to fight this, you need to argue it on the merits, or find an alternative that will be acceptable to the staff. Insulting them and their motivations will get you nowhere.
Imagine you're a newer member, happy with the forums, posting and doing your thing. You hear about a hidden part of the forum and you're curious so you request membership. You finally get in and you find what is essentially a cyberspace frat house. It's not pleasant and you don't really know how to fit in and when you try to post, you're just jumped on by the members that have been there a while. Eventually, they make a thread with a poll to vote to keep or eject you and after a few more insults, you get Survivored out. Would that leave you with a positive image of Salvation as a whole?
You and I may not see it as a big deal, but the staff clearly doesn't like the idea that by allowing the Gutter to stay they're implicitly condoning situations like that. And if the staff is committed to moving the site in a more inclusive, tolerant place, I can see this as a necessary move for them. Absolutely.
Personally, I still have a lingering attitude of posters needing to sink or swim and I don't much care if their feelings get hurt because someone said something bad about them in the Gutter. But I'm an *******, and *******s don't run the site anymore.
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Tolerance = only what the mod tolerates or agree's with.
never been to the gutter never even a part of the gutter. If it was to actually police the site i would agree that it should stay. if it is there to insult other members then well that is a different story.
There is no one here as oversight on the Mods or admins of this site. the issue is that the owner has taken such a hands off approach.
actually i do believe one of the rules for the forum says that you are required to type in a font that people can easily read. that orange hurts the eyes. if it was darker not that much of a problem.
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If you're trying to trace this back to cause and effect, I'd say it's much more likely to have something to do with Viper coming on board beside Rian.
Rian isn't corrupt. He has principles, and he cares about them, and he fights for them, because he thinks they'll make things better. Same goes for Viper, and Sene.
And no, I don't think your suggestion of adding more admins was taken badly. I followed the mod reaction to that in GRR a little bit, and while it was thought that you made your point a bit awkwardly, it was also thought there could be some merit to it.
I'm sorry, but I didn't see any sarcasm intended from your post. In context, it seemed that your statement was being presented at face value. Of course, looking back, I can see the smiley. Mea culpa.
Either way, I appreciate you clarifying your comment.
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Onto the topic at hand: I don't even think us Gutter users where even starting anything and just cracking up on each other like a group of friends. Which, from reading the posts of other members of the Gutter about the mods and admins of this site are all of Rianalnn, who seemed to not like us at all.
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A truly great petition
Madding, man, is that necessary or productive? You know I have nothing but love for you, but come on.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
It's easy in the heat of a moment to lose faith in people, and fail to see them for who they are. But the truth is, there are fewer demons in the world than there are ordinary people and angels. And ordinary people can often be reasoned with. They usually don't set out to screw with you just because they feel like it. They generally try to do what they think is the right thing. If your ideas about that differ from theirs, you have to find a way to try to line them up.
I don't see any reason why the alternatives I suggested in my first post in this thread wouldn't work. But if you're more interested in making Rian and co. out to be bad, evil people or proto-Nazis...*shrugs* Then I guess you're screwed.
I remember the years when it felt like the mafia subforum was standing alone against the weight of the entire administration. It does get old. And you folks in the gutter have had it much, much worse.
it seems as though a larger admin team would help prevent things like this.
It would do very well to discourage groupthink
Are you retarded or something?
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Infraction Issued.
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For a long time, our guild had such a clique that would spend night after night in their own vent channel, talking bad about the rest of the guild, *****ing about management and complaining about other people.
That kind of behavior is contagious and creates a very negative atmosphere. It eventually spread so far among members that it split the guild right down the middle. All because of some petty dislikes and personal drama that spilled over into the entire guild, since these 10 people hate those 10 people who hate these other 10 people now. Any 'new' member of the guild was forced to reckon with the atmosphere it created, especially if comments came their direction.
Maybe not, but theres been a lot of posts in the community forums about the negative atmospheres roaming around MTGS.
I notice the bulk of infractions you see in posts are for dumb things, like double bumping your thread too soon. Not infractions for REAL things, like dbaggery, hostile comments, racist remarks, sly insults, ownage of newbs.
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Be quiet, the adults are talking.
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Oh, like how the Gutter posts currently not permissible were made under the assumption they'd be private? That sort of is completely contradictory.
Oh, and don't diss the Gutter. It's all fun and games. A place where gutter users (and ex-mods) go to relax. That's it. It does not share influence or exposure the Staff has... you can verify that by the simple fact that most people that read this thread know what the Gutter is, but there's a lot that don't know what the GRR is...
If we're making the Gutter a public issue, it's high time the Staff equivalent had the same treatment. And don't bull**** me, votan, I was a staff member for 7 years. I've seen what staff and ex-staff talk about in there, and it's only marginally cleaner than most discussions in the Gutter, in regards to the bullying/anti-user mindset the Gutter is being shut down over.
Question: How do the users benefit from having the GRR thread hosted on MTGS?
Edit: Thanks gaea's regent for bringing up the "The User 'X' is a [censored] Idiot Thread" Thread. Let's put that on the table too, since we're worried about bullying people behind their backs.
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His principles include deleting posts that speak ill of him in public discussions when he has the power to and lynching the overwhelming majority of his clanmates in a paranoid power trip. I sure think this site is better for it and I would thank those posts, were the posts not deleted without warning.
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Since that post currently has my name on it, I'd just like to confirm that NS's statement regarding authorship is true.
Thank you for reaffirming my statements.
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But it isn't.
At this rate, the staff can get away with anything. This community really doesn't care at all.
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