As of July 1, the Gutter subforum will be retired. This was not an easy decision, but we believe it is the right one for the good of the site.
What is the Gutter?
The Gutter is a hidden group of subforums that is essentially unmoderated in the conventional sense. Infractions and the like have never been employed in the Gutter, although for a time an active infraction would preclude a user from participating in the subforum. Notorious for its culture of hazing and attracting members with rocky relationships with the staff, the Gutter historically served as a place where watchdog discussions relating to staff conduct could be had, in addition to its role as an exclusive-membership sandbox.
Why is the Gutter being retired?
First is the issue of bullying. The Gutter has an entrenched culture of attacking, hazing, and bullying new or unwelcome members. Although “what happens in the Gutter stays in the Gutter,” any member of Salvation is fair game for a roasting within, whether they are a member of the subforum or not. MTGSalvation as a community aims to support a culture of tolerance, and the hostile culture of the Gutter is in direct opposition to this goal. While this has been an ongoing concern of the staff, certain events of the past months have brought this to the fore. First was an incident discussed extensively here in Community Issues and in the Moderator Lounge, namely that we were slow to act when a potentially unstable member was getting verbally harassed. The staff considers this a very serious issue and we vowed to address it. As we worked to prevent a similar event from happening in the future, we became acutely aware of how closely tied cyberbullying has been to various suicides and school shootings. We then realized that the reality is that in most cases the repercussions of that negative culture will not be visible to us. We cannot not overlook the danger that the Gutter poses to people in real life. While there is no way to quantify the impact this has on a user, by allowing it a place to exist, the staff feel responsible for it.
Second, while the problems associated with the gutter have risen to the forefront, the benefits of the subforum have diminished. With the formation of the Staff Inbox, the Ban Appeal Subforum, the implementation of a Staff Code of Conduct and a general push for increased professionalism from staff, the Gutter's role as a place for watchdog discussions has been marginalized. At the same time, Gutter members at all levels have shown that they will not report fellow gutter members for suspension evasion and the like, while attacking whichever senior staff member is chosen to watch over the subforum. This creates a situation contributing to staff burnout and increased rule-breaking rather than the beneficial role that Gutter members would previously claim. The staff is thus left in an uncomfortable position where we cannot properly monitor the forum without drawing extreme levels of hostility.
What Will Happen to the Gutter?
The Gutter and its subforums will be moved to the Forbidden Zone, hidden from regular users, and closed for posting.
Again, this is not an action we take lightly.
We will try to answer and address your concerns and help dispel any lingering uncertainties you might have.
What was the decisionmaking behind this closure, by comparison to the one in November?
The previous decision was made without much consideration of options or potential repercussions, or much discussion in general. Basically, the previous administration wished to put a stop to the incidents of drama created by Gutter members, and therefore decided to close the Gutter itself. This time round, closing the Gutter was not the goal from the outset. Rather, we were determining the direction we wished to take with the site, and came to the conclusion that closing the Gutter was a necessary step in that direction.
What factors/reasons changed from now to then, if any? Has anything in particular beyond the bullying/hazing gotten worse?
Nothing has gotten worse, to the best of my knowledge. However, as mentioned in the first post, things have definitely changed outside the Gutter, and these have had a large influence on the decision.
How big of an impact was the April incident?
We had already tentatively started looking at the Gutter's place in the community when the incident occurred. However, it provided something of a wake-up call to the senior staff, and definitely made us pay far more attention to the situation. I think it would be fair to say that it accelerated this decision rather than being largely responsible for it.
I can't help but disagree with several of your original statements posted in the reasoning for the Gutter's closing. I'd like to point out several that I see as incorrect in my opinion.
Quote from viperesque »
The Gutter has an entrenched culture of attacking, hazing, and bullying new or unwelcome members.
...of the Gutter. I believe that's how the sentence should read. I can't agree with the idea that "Gutter Members" continue to do what is being claimed in this sentence. I can't say that this has never happened, but the consequences of past events have relegated nearly every comment or feeling to remain in the Gutter.
Quote from viperesque »
Although “what happens in the Gutter stays in the Gutter,” any member of Salvation is fair game for a roasting within, whether they are a member of the subforum or not.
I have to say that thinking this isn't going to happen anymore, once the Gutter is closed is naive to say the least. It's human nature for a group of like minded individuals to gather and gossip about people they find dissimilar to their clique. Thus the reason for the clan sub-forum. But even there, you can't speak openly without getting heavy moderation. I believe the biggest issue most have with the activity in the Gutter is the ability to speak frankly without censorship. The fact that realistic dialog, with or without profanity, is going back and forth can seem demeaning to those not ready for adult conversations. But that's the reason that Gutter member/applicants are screened and "tested" before total acceptance. That's why a "lurking period" is enforced. If you don't agree with the manner in which members communicate with each other in there, your best bet is to leave quietly or get GB'd harshly. It's a real life consequence.
Quote from viperesque »
we became acutely aware of how closely tied cyberbullying has been to various suicides and school shootings. We then realized that the reality is that in most cases the repercussions of that negative culture will not be visible to us. We cannot not overlook the danger that the Gutter poses to people in real life. While there is no way to quantify the impact this has on a user, by allowing it a place to exist, the staff feel responsible for it.
Let's be honest here....this has no relevance to the Gutter whatsoever. If you guys actually believe that shutting the Gutter down will cease this activity from happening ever again, I'm sad for all of you. I believe that giving people a place to vent their frustrations without the prying eyes of the "sensitive masses" reduces the number of harassment issues sitewide. This is just an empty excuse that the Staff is using to fuel their fire. The issue of cyberbullying is very real...I understand that...but as long as the RLA sub-forum exists, this won't stop. There are so many people that feel the need to "whore" for attention. Even the strictest moderation isn't going to put an end to this.
and finally
Quote from viperesque »
MTGSalvation as a community aims to support a culture of tolerance
There is so much wrong with this phrase I don't even know where to start. The community as a whole probably does want this type of atmosphere in the "Magic Related" web forum they frequent. The truth is that the community has no say in the decisions that are made here. While most of the community here is oblivious to the happenings in the Mod Lounge, the moderation of this site is far from tolerant. The amount of infractions....not warnings....but infractions that are given on a daily basis on this site is proof that tolerance is not the culture of this site.
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"Talkin outta turn....That's a paddlin'. Starin' at my sandals....That's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe....You better believe that's a paddlin'!" --Jasper
I've been advocating this action for years. Congratulations to the current staff for finally standing up and shutting down The Gutter. Guess its denizens will have to find some other way to satisfy their needs to swear at and insult people in "public" (but behind their backs) in desperate acts of self-aggrandizement.
A great day for MTGS...
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Now playing Transformers: Legends. 27-time top tier finisher and admin of the TFL Wikia site.
I have to say that thinking this isn't going to happen anymore, once the Gutter is closed is naive to say the least. It's human nature for a group of like minded individuals to gather and gossip about people they find dissimilar to their clique. Thus the reason for the clan sub-forum. But even there, you can't speak openly without getting heavy moderation. I believe the biggest issue most have with the activity in the Gutter is the ability to speak frankly without censorship. The fact that realistic dialog, with or without profanity, is going back and forth can seem demeaning to those not ready for adult conversations. But that's the reason that Gutter member/applicants are screened and "tested" before total acceptance. That's why a "lurking period" is enforced. If you don't agree with the manner in which members communicate with each other in there, your best bet is to leave quietly or get GB'd harshly. It's a real life consequence.
You have other options. Group email. Google+ hangouts. IRC. Why does your need to insult other members behind their backs have to happen here?
The Gutter is mean-spirited. That's what it's supposed to be. That attitude, however, feels in conflict with the goals of the rest of the site.
We cannot not overlook the danger that the Gutter poses to people in real life. While there is no way to quantify the impact this has on a user, by allowing it a place to exist, the staff feel responsible for it.
What? Danger the gutter poses to people in real life. Seriously? That is the singularly dumbest statement, possibly ever, in regards to the gutter. The only actual danger posed to people in real life to come from these forums (not including dangers people pose to *themselves*) involved a staff member.
But thanks for the laugh, champ.
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The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
You have other options. Group email. Google+ hangouts. IRC. Why does your need to insult other members behind their backs have to happen here?
The Gutter is mean-spirited. That's what it's supposed to be. That attitude, however, feels in conflict with the goals of the rest of the site.
Come on...really? Everyone has other options. The fact that we all convene in the one place we have in common is the reason for it's existence. But that holds true for everyone that's on this site.
The "mean-spirited" nature is real-to-life banter. Person to person human interaction within a group of like minded individuals is very much like the back and forth of conversations held in the Gutter. If you don't like it, don't participate.
The thing is...there are many areas of this site that hold no relevance to the rest of the site. Why should there be a place for people to post the Voyeuristic viewings outside of their windows? Why is there a place to discuss our favorite television shows? What relevance does a sub-forum dedicated to whether GOD exists or if gay marriage should be morally allowed? Many of these areas are offensive to many of the members of this site. I mean really....this is Magic the Gathering web forum, created to discuss current rumors, applications and strategy of collectible card game.
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"Talkin outta turn....That's a paddlin'. Starin' at my sandals....That's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe....You better believe that's a paddlin'!" --Jasper
so are there specific instances that led to this decision or is it just the spectre of the gutter that you dont like?
EDIT: basically is there anything tangible that you can mention or are you just grouping the gutter together as a bunch of trolls because you dont like it existing
What has happened since the Gutter was reopened? Besides some of its members becoming staff members? Why did the admins betray the spirit and purpose of the Pegging Chamber?
This was inevitable. Yukora was the last admin who was sympathetic towards the Gutter and he retired a while back. Without anyone in the higher ups truly supporting the Gutter, it was living on borrowed time.
More to come when I get back from work tonight, because I expect this to be yet another drama bomb of a thread.
...of the Gutter. I believe that's how the sentence should read. I can't agree with the idea that "Gutter Members" continue to do what is being claimed in this sentence. I can't say that this has never happened, but the consequences of past events have relegated nearly every comment or feeling to remain in the Gutter.
Even supposing we do assume that such comments will never leave the Gutter again, we still do not want them to be made on this site, because they represent more or less the opposite of the kind of posts that we want to encourage.
I have to say that thinking this isn't going to happen anymore, once the Gutter is closed is naive to say the least. It's human nature for a group of like minded individuals to gather and gossip about people they find dissimilar to their clique. Thus the reason for the clan sub-forum. But even there, you can't speak openly without getting heavy moderation. I believe the biggest issue most have with the activity in the Gutter is the ability to speak frankly without censorship. The fact that realistic dialog, with or without profanity, is going back and forth can seem demeaning to those not ready for adult conversations. But that's the reason that Gutter member/applicants are screened and "tested" before total acceptance. That's why a "lurking period" is enforced. If you don't agree with the manner in which members communicate with each other in there, your best bet is to leave quietly or get GB'd harshly. It's a real life consequence.
You're right that it would be naive to think that it will stop when we close the Gutter. However, we no longer wish to provide a platform for it. I would also dispute your definition of an 'adult conversation', but that is largely beside the point.
Let's be honest here....this has no relevance to the Gutter whatsoever. If you guys actually believe that shutting the Gutter down will cease this activity from happening ever again, I'm sad for all of you. I believe that giving people a place to vent their frustrations without the prying eyes of the "sensitive masses" reduces the number of harassment issues sitewide. This is just an empty excuse that the Staff is using to fuel their fire. The issue of cyberbullying is very real...I understand that...but as long as the RLA sub-forum exists, this won't stop. There are so many people that feel the need to "whore" for attention. Even the strictest moderation isn't going to put an end to this.
Again, we by no means believe that this is going to solve the problem. Indeed, I'll personally concede that it's extremely unlikely that anything done by Gutter members would ever lead to a serious real-life incident. However, we do feel that we have to take this issue seriously, and again, we do not wish to provide a platform that legitimises harassment in any way. We've increased our awareness of this matter hugely in Real-Life Advice as well. Threads that we consider troubling, or that have potential to provoke a hostile response directed at the user, are now removed and the situation explained to the user. They are also directed to more appropriate support options as necessary.
There is so much wrong with this phrase I don't even know where to start. The community as a whole probably does want this type of atmosphere in the "Magic Related" web forum they frequent. The truth is that the community has no say in the decisions that are made here. While most of the community here is oblivious to the happenings in the Mod Lounge, the moderation of this site is far from tolerant. The amount of infractions....not warnings....but infractions that are given on a daily basis on this site is proof that tolerance is not the culture of this site.
The community does indeed have little say in a lot of the decisions that happen here, but especially given the size of this particular community, it could not be any other way. Regardless, I do not see how this is related to tolerance. Similarly, the infractions that we hand out do not seem to me to inhibit tolerance. Where they involve tolerance at all, they are given out for users who are intolerant to the point of insult, i.e. flaming.
This doesnt sit well considering the site itself has sat pretty calm with no more big trouble.
As mentioned in post 3, this decision bears no relation to site drama. We are not doing this in retaliation for anything, we simply believe that the Gutter does not have a place on these forums.
ein, poggydude, GR: I believe I have addressed your posts in this reply. Please let us know if you want further clarification.
so instead of using the systems in place the site has to stop things such as infractions warnings and bannings you decided to just close a very strong community because you dont like the atmosphere it creates?
you know how much this sounds like "we just dont like you guys very much"?
also can you explain the rationale for making the entire gutter public but not the mod cave?
More specifically...the mod cave thread that discussed the closing of the Gutter and the true reasoning behind these actions.
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"Talkin outta turn....That's a paddlin'. Starin' at my sandals....That's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe....You better believe that's a paddlin'!" --Jasper
What problems have risen to the forefront? Would you care to make any sort of concrete statement instead of a vague analogy to what problems have been caused here?
When a member gets infracted, there's a system in place that links back to the instance of abuse and forum rules clearly written that dictate what went wrong. The same is true when threads are closed, "The thread was closed because this thing happened." Closing an entire forum "because reasons" isn't a reason.
Seems a bit vindictive, particularly when the forums at large have broadly been, as far as the opening post is concerned, unaffected by the going-ons in the Gutter.
Edit: Second. Why aren't all mod cave posts made public and how do we know bullying or mean-spirited discussions of forum members aren't going on there? Specifically within the Grr thread (I mention this specifically because I know that is where those types of discussions go on among staff).
Question: How do the users benefit from having the Gutter hosted on MTGS?
The gutter still serves as a watchdog for the site. This has not been diminshed by the other features addedeven if the current admins are currently intent on ignoring what the gutter is saying.
This is a terrible decision. I don't think that the staff involved know how close this site is to a tipping point. I know I'm ready to leave as soon as a decent alternative comes by.
Also, votan, so the GRR is totally ok because it is a bigger secret? For all the userbase knows the grr thread could be the reason the mods treats users with contempt from time to time
From what I understand (again, without inside knowledge) is that the decision is supported on potential for problems, more than any specific occurrence. It's logical to me.
The old preemptive strike. Strictly logical.
I do make a safeguard for it no tto be retroactive, since some posts were made under the assumption that they'd be private and that may cause issues. I don't have a specific example, but doing it this way would add transparency while preventing problem with the disclosure.
Kind of like the gutter posts that are going live? Which is another point that seems inconsistent- if we're worried about cyber-bullying then why are we making posts, some of which containing negative content, public?
Oh, and don't diss the GRRR. It's all fun and games. A place where mods (and ex-mods) go to relax. That's it. It does not share the influence or exposure the Gutter has.. You can verify that by the simple fact that most people that read this thread know what the Gutter is, but there's a lot that don't know what the GRR is...
"Because it's mods doing it so it's okay". Long live the rianalnn administration.
Anyway, I feel everyone's drifting from the point. I don't see "There's something else wrong with the site, so the Gutter should stay" as a valid reason to keep it...
While this is true, I'd much rather argue that there's nothing wrong with the gutter. I find it hard to believe that anybody has heard about the gutter without knowing exactly what it is, unless of course they had no interest in it. But if that's the case then there's obviously no problem.
Question: How do the users benefit from having the Gutter hosted on MTGS?
The gutter is MTGS for some members. Users outside of the gutter obviously don't benefit but that's equally true of trading grounds, clans and the mod cave.
Also, why on Earth do you type in orange? I can't be the only one that hurts their eyes trying to read it.
I don't think this decision is linked in any way to corruption, but to what the admin think is best for the site. From my time on staff, I know Viper and Rian have taken a hard line when it came to cyber-bullying and tolerance issues - that's a central point on their moral compasses. And let's face it - the gutter is a lonely island that is very much out of step with the ethos enforced elsewhere on the site. One of these things is very much not like the other.
I don't think raising the banner of "corrupt moderation" is going to get you very far. That's simply not where this is coming from, and it's a non sequitur to your actual concern.
The real issue in the minds of the staff, it seems to me, is whether the preservation of the gutter community and the enjoyment that it brings its members is outweighed by the abrasiveness that can be directed at new users attempting to join there.
As is, I think it's a legitimate, rationale call to judge that no, it is not an acceptable situation. There's room for reasonable minds to find their way down that logical chain, starting with the right set of assumptions about morality.
But in the spirit of considering alternatives that may resolve the situation with less damage all around, has anyone considered simply freezing the ability of the gutter to add new members? I don't think anyone is concerned about the gutter hazing its own established members - its the newbies walking in like lambs to the slaughter. If the idea is to prevent new and unsuspecting users from walking into a cyberbullying zone, that would serve nicely - and would allow the gutter to die a slow, natural death in the course of due time, rather than face a firing squad at the hands of the staff.
Alternately, you could also try making the vetting process for admitting gutter users much more in-depth, before they're ever exposed to the gutter and expected to sink, swim, or GTFO. With a bit more of an in-depth questionnaire or interview process, I'm sure the gutter could decide easily enough beforehand whether someone's personality is really a good fit for them, before it ever reached the point where they're trying to haze them out of the gutter. And, if you don't trust the gutter to handle that process without supervision, you could put a mod in charge of making final approvals.
Both those alternatives seem valid ways to resolve the staff's concerns without obliterating the community entirely. It's an old group of friends, and if it's possible to solve the problem without breaking them up, we should try to avoid it.
I don't know how I feel about this. Once upon a time, I was one of the bigger Gutter supporters, now I'm largely apathetic about it. The staff's point about it having an atmosphere of bullying is technically true (assuming of course it's the same now as it was a year ago when I left, but I think it's safe to assume it is), even if established members just think of it as being in good fun, I can see how it could be problematic for others. And I can understand the staff wanting to reduce the avenues for that sort of behavior on the site.
And it's not as though not having a forum will remove the 'watchdog' capabilities of the Gutterites. Not as if they aren't always the first ones to question and criticize the staff, even when Gutterbanned or Guttersuspended.
I just don't have a salient defense for the Gutter, especially not now that the mud-slinging is starting and leaving a bad taste in my mouth. Maybe it just ran its course. I won't celebrate this, but I won't mourn it either.
Come on votan...whos' really at risk here from the presence of the Gutter. I can't imagine anyone, at all, at risk of anything, at all!
The gutter can't be seen by anyone other than it's members. How is that damaging to the site in any way?
To that end...none of those sites have NSFW sections, Card Speculation sections, Games outside of magic sections, debate sections, etc. Those sites are dedicated to the game they serve. Everything outside of the game are all lumped into one section called, "Non-Magic Related Conversation".
Your argument is completely invalid.
And NO!!! The staff is NOT above the rules. Just as they must enforce the rules of this, they should also be expected to follow the rules as well. That ideology the is the exact reason this claim is being thrown out there by (N_S).
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"Talkin outta turn....That's a paddlin'. Starin' at my sandals....That's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe....You better believe that's a paddlin'!" --Jasper
nothing to see here
I LIKE CHICKS!
So Long TBGTE
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What is the Gutter?
The Gutter is a hidden group of subforums that is essentially unmoderated in the conventional sense. Infractions and the like have never been employed in the Gutter, although for a time an active infraction would preclude a user from participating in the subforum. Notorious for its culture of hazing and attracting members with rocky relationships with the staff, the Gutter historically served as a place where watchdog discussions relating to staff conduct could be had, in addition to its role as an exclusive-membership sandbox.
Why is the Gutter being retired?
First is the issue of bullying. The Gutter has an entrenched culture of attacking, hazing, and bullying new or unwelcome members. Although “what happens in the Gutter stays in the Gutter,” any member of Salvation is fair game for a roasting within, whether they are a member of the subforum or not. MTGSalvation as a community aims to support a culture of tolerance, and the hostile culture of the Gutter is in direct opposition to this goal. While this has been an ongoing concern of the staff, certain events of the past months have brought this to the fore. First was an incident discussed extensively here in Community Issues and in the Moderator Lounge, namely that we were slow to act when a potentially unstable member was getting verbally harassed. The staff considers this a very serious issue and we vowed to address it. As we worked to prevent a similar event from happening in the future, we became acutely aware of how closely tied cyberbullying has been to various suicides and school shootings. We then realized that the reality is that in most cases the repercussions of that negative culture will not be visible to us. We cannot not overlook the danger that the Gutter poses to people in real life. While there is no way to quantify the impact this has on a user, by allowing it a place to exist, the staff feel responsible for it.
Second, while the problems associated with the gutter have risen to the forefront, the benefits of the subforum have diminished. With the formation of the Staff Inbox, the Ban Appeal Subforum, the implementation of a Staff Code of Conduct and a general push for increased professionalism from staff, the Gutter's role as a place for watchdog discussions has been marginalized. At the same time, Gutter members at all levels have shown that they will not report fellow gutter members for suspension evasion and the like, while attacking whichever senior staff member is chosen to watch over the subforum. This creates a situation contributing to staff burnout and increased rule-breaking rather than the beneficial role that Gutter members would previously claim. The staff is thus left in an uncomfortable position where we cannot properly monitor the forum without drawing extreme levels of hostility.
What Will Happen to the Gutter?
The Gutter and its subforums will be moved to the Forbidden Zone, hidden from regular users, and closed for posting.
Again, this is not an action we take lightly.
We will try to answer and address your concerns and help dispel any lingering uncertainties you might have.
What factors/reasons changed from now to then, if any? Has anything in particular beyond the bullying/hazing gotten worse?
How big of an impact was the April incident?
Nothing has gotten worse, to the best of my knowledge. However, as mentioned in the first post, things have definitely changed outside the Gutter, and these have had a large influence on the decision.
We had already tentatively started looking at the Gutter's place in the community when the incident occurred. However, it provided something of a wake-up call to the senior staff, and definitely made us pay far more attention to the situation. I think it would be fair to say that it accelerated this decision rather than being largely responsible for it.
...of the Gutter. I believe that's how the sentence should read. I can't agree with the idea that "Gutter Members" continue to do what is being claimed in this sentence. I can't say that this has never happened, but the consequences of past events have relegated nearly every comment or feeling to remain in the Gutter.
I have to say that thinking this isn't going to happen anymore, once the Gutter is closed is naive to say the least. It's human nature for a group of like minded individuals to gather and gossip about people they find dissimilar to their clique. Thus the reason for the clan sub-forum. But even there, you can't speak openly without getting heavy moderation. I believe the biggest issue most have with the activity in the Gutter is the ability to speak frankly without censorship. The fact that realistic dialog, with or without profanity, is going back and forth can seem demeaning to those not ready for adult conversations. But that's the reason that Gutter member/applicants are screened and "tested" before total acceptance. That's why a "lurking period" is enforced. If you don't agree with the manner in which members communicate with each other in there, your best bet is to leave quietly or get GB'd harshly. It's a real life consequence.
Let's be honest here....this has no relevance to the Gutter whatsoever. If you guys actually believe that shutting the Gutter down will cease this activity from happening ever again, I'm sad for all of you. I believe that giving people a place to vent their frustrations without the prying eyes of the "sensitive masses" reduces the number of harassment issues sitewide. This is just an empty excuse that the Staff is using to fuel their fire. The issue of cyberbullying is very real...I understand that...but as long as the RLA sub-forum exists, this won't stop. There are so many people that feel the need to "whore" for attention. Even the strictest moderation isn't going to put an end to this.
and finally
There is so much wrong with this phrase I don't even know where to start. The community as a whole probably does want this type of atmosphere in the "Magic Related" web forum they frequent. The truth is that the community has no say in the decisions that are made here. While most of the community here is oblivious to the happenings in the Mod Lounge, the moderation of this site is far from tolerant. The amount of infractions....not warnings....but infractions that are given on a daily basis on this site is proof that tolerance is not the culture of this site.
A great day for MTGS...
The MirroCube - 420 card Mirrodin themed cube
And if I've offended you, I'm sorry, but maybe you need to be offended. But here's my apology and one more thing...
You have other options. Group email. Google+ hangouts. IRC. Why does your need to insult other members behind their backs have to happen here?
The Gutter is mean-spirited. That's what it's supposed to be. That attitude, however, feels in conflict with the goals of the rest of the site.
[card=Jace Beleren]Jace[/card] = Jace
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The first rule of Cursecatcher is, You do not talk about Cursecatcher.
What? Danger the gutter poses to people in real life. Seriously? That is the singularly dumbest statement, possibly ever, in regards to the gutter. The only actual danger posed to people in real life to come from these forums (not including dangers people pose to *themselves*) involved a staff member.
But thanks for the laugh, champ.
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
Come on...really? Everyone has other options. The fact that we all convene in the one place we have in common is the reason for it's existence. But that holds true for everyone that's on this site.
The "mean-spirited" nature is real-to-life banter. Person to person human interaction within a group of like minded individuals is very much like the back and forth of conversations held in the Gutter. If you don't like it, don't participate.
The thing is...there are many areas of this site that hold no relevance to the rest of the site. Why should there be a place for people to post the Voyeuristic viewings outside of their windows? Why is there a place to discuss our favorite television shows? What relevance does a sub-forum dedicated to whether GOD exists or if gay marriage should be morally allowed? Many of these areas are offensive to many of the members of this site. I mean really....this is Magic the Gathering web forum, created to discuss current rumors, applications and strategy of collectible card game.
EDIT: basically is there anything tangible that you can mention or are you just grouping the gutter together as a bunch of trolls because you dont like it existing
I am disappointed by this administration.
My YouTube Channel
More to come when I get back from work tonight, because I expect this to be yet another drama bomb of a thread.
You're right that it would be naive to think that it will stop when we close the Gutter. However, we no longer wish to provide a platform for it. I would also dispute your definition of an 'adult conversation', but that is largely beside the point.
Again, we by no means believe that this is going to solve the problem. Indeed, I'll personally concede that it's extremely unlikely that anything done by Gutter members would ever lead to a serious real-life incident. However, we do feel that we have to take this issue seriously, and again, we do not wish to provide a platform that legitimises harassment in any way. We've increased our awareness of this matter hugely in Real-Life Advice as well. Threads that we consider troubling, or that have potential to provoke a hostile response directed at the user, are now removed and the situation explained to the user. They are also directed to more appropriate support options as necessary.
The community does indeed have little say in a lot of the decisions that happen here, but especially given the size of this particular community, it could not be any other way. Regardless, I do not see how this is related to tolerance. Similarly, the infractions that we hand out do not seem to me to inhibit tolerance. Where they involve tolerance at all, they are given out for users who are intolerant to the point of insult, i.e. flaming.
As mentioned in post 3, this decision bears no relation to site drama. We are not doing this in retaliation for anything, we simply believe that the Gutter does not have a place on these forums.
ein, poggydude, GR: I believe I have addressed your posts in this reply. Please let us know if you want further clarification.
you know how much this sounds like "we just dont like you guys very much"?
More specifically...the mod cave thread that discussed the closing of the Gutter and the true reasoning behind these actions.
When a member gets infracted, there's a system in place that links back to the instance of abuse and forum rules clearly written that dictate what went wrong. The same is true when threads are closed, "The thread was closed because this thing happened." Closing an entire forum "because reasons" isn't a reason.
Seems a bit vindictive, particularly when the forums at large have broadly been, as far as the opening post is concerned, unaffected by the going-ons in the Gutter.
Edit: Second. Why aren't all mod cave posts made public and how do we know bullying or mean-spirited discussions of forum members aren't going on there? Specifically within the Grr thread (I mention this specifically because I know that is where those types of discussions go on among staff).
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The gutter still serves as a watchdog for the site. This has not been diminshed by the other features addedeven if the current admins are currently intent on ignoring what the gutter is saying.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
The old preemptive strike. Strictly logical.
Kind of like the gutter posts that are going live? Which is another point that seems inconsistent- if we're worried about cyber-bullying then why are we making posts, some of which containing negative content, public?
"Because it's mods doing it so it's okay". Long live the rianalnn administration.
While this is true, I'd much rather argue that there's nothing wrong with the gutter. I find it hard to believe that anybody has heard about the gutter without knowing exactly what it is, unless of course they had no interest in it. But if that's the case then there's obviously no problem.
The gutter is MTGS for some members. Users outside of the gutter obviously don't benefit but that's equally true of trading grounds, clans and the mod cave.
Also, why on Earth do you type in orange? I can't be the only one that hurts their eyes trying to read it.
I don't think raising the banner of "corrupt moderation" is going to get you very far. That's simply not where this is coming from, and it's a non sequitur to your actual concern.
The real issue in the minds of the staff, it seems to me, is whether the preservation of the gutter community and the enjoyment that it brings its members is outweighed by the abrasiveness that can be directed at new users attempting to join there.
As is, I think it's a legitimate, rationale call to judge that no, it is not an acceptable situation. There's room for reasonable minds to find their way down that logical chain, starting with the right set of assumptions about morality.
But in the spirit of considering alternatives that may resolve the situation with less damage all around, has anyone considered simply freezing the ability of the gutter to add new members? I don't think anyone is concerned about the gutter hazing its own established members - its the newbies walking in like lambs to the slaughter. If the idea is to prevent new and unsuspecting users from walking into a cyberbullying zone, that would serve nicely - and would allow the gutter to die a slow, natural death in the course of due time, rather than face a firing squad at the hands of the staff.
Alternately, you could also try making the vetting process for admitting gutter users much more in-depth, before they're ever exposed to the gutter and expected to sink, swim, or GTFO. With a bit more of an in-depth questionnaire or interview process, I'm sure the gutter could decide easily enough beforehand whether someone's personality is really a good fit for them, before it ever reached the point where they're trying to haze them out of the gutter. And, if you don't trust the gutter to handle that process without supervision, you could put a mod in charge of making final approvals.
Both those alternatives seem valid ways to resolve the staff's concerns without obliterating the community entirely. It's an old group of friends, and if it's possible to solve the problem without breaking them up, we should try to avoid it.
And it's not as though not having a forum will remove the 'watchdog' capabilities of the Gutterites. Not as if they aren't always the first ones to question and criticize the staff, even when Gutterbanned or Guttersuspended.
I just don't have a salient defense for the Gutter, especially not now that the mud-slinging is starting and leaving a bad taste in my mouth. Maybe it just ran its course. I won't celebrate this, but I won't mourn it either.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
The gutter can't be seen by anyone other than it's members. How is that damaging to the site in any way?
To that end...none of those sites have NSFW sections, Card Speculation sections, Games outside of magic sections, debate sections, etc. Those sites are dedicated to the game they serve. Everything outside of the game are all lumped into one section called, "Non-Magic Related Conversation".
Your argument is completely invalid.
And NO!!! The staff is NOT above the rules. Just as they must enforce the rules of this, they should also be expected to follow the rules as well. That ideology the is the exact reason this claim is being thrown out there by (N_S).