No, but it's also not an especially desirable solution, depending on who you poll.
True. If there really is no community demand for it then it may not be the most desirable solution. But just looking at the EDH offtopic thread, people seem to enjoy having a thread to post random offtopic thoughts without having to create an entire thread for it in WCT. I would say about 100% of the posts in that topic would not have warranted a new thread being created for that post, but the users still seem to enjoy having the appropriate place to post stuff like that.
Leave it up to the MTGS community though to actually be opposed to the idea of a place where their speech isn't limited and infracted though.
I don't really see the problem with it, sure you're gonna get some people in there who are gonna be too uptight, but hell if you're too uptight for it, just don't post in the forum. Why is this so hard for people to grasp?
I could live with a lil "Mini-gutter" forum open to all users. I mean, IMO the actual "gutter" was just toooooo asinine. I mean, it might have changed since I last checked but the brief moment I did visit I just recall getting a headache from all the "Lol, 1st Post!!! GTFO! Leet Haxxorz" crap but I think this would be better.
I see this as being a sort of example of what the MTGS forums could be if the mods relaxed a bit and let things that truly didn't matter slide and I think that would be beautiful. It allows users who feel the moderation is a bit heavy handed to communicate in an environment where they wouldn't have to worry about being infracted for entirely insignificant reasons.
I think this would be a GREAT service to the community and I'm behind it 100%.
So quick everyone, make gimmick accounts and flood that poll with positive votes before the "uptights" win again!!
I don't really see the problem with it, sure you're gonna get some people in there who are gonna be too uptight, but hell if you're too uptight for it, just don't post in the forum. Why is this so hard for people to grasp?
Because that concept only works if people are only allowed to post about other people who post in the area.
If people are allowed to bash, for example, me even though I want nothing to do in that area I'm still affected by it. I can't choose to just not go there.
Pretty much. I mean, isn't this just Testing Grounds Redux, sorta?
Yep, and the mods ruined that and now thanks to them the blogs are ruined too.
And I know, I know "But it was an excuse for people to spam and a nightmare to moderate".
But it's a nightmare the mods are creating themselves. Why not simply try, and I know this is gonna sound crazy....but why not try just leaving it alone. It's 1 part of the forum. Providing the people aren't posting porn and death threats, just let it roll.
That's one of the things that bugs me about this forum, like just how seriously it's taken. I mean, don't get me wrong I'm certainly not suggesting we just let this place deteriorate. But it just seems kinda ridiculous to me that the mods treat this place as if it were some kind of center of important world news and affairs where every post needed to be screened for content lest it may offend the wrong person and bring about global disorder.
Can we all take a step back and remember that it's just a forum about a card game? No one's gonna get hurt if a "less then constructive" post slips through the cracks uninfracted.
I understand this is a popular site and you wanna maintain a standard and that's fair enough but I figured that a sort of "public mini-gutter" could be the perfect balance between letting the users enjoy the site and letting the mods enjoy the site.
I think the the idea of the whole "Oh, but what if the users begin to get to comfortable and act naughty outside of the forum!!!" Is just ridiculous. Firstly it again falls into that whole "you're taking it too seriously" thing and secondly...this is MTGsalvation. The second anyone says anything off colour in the wrong place he'll have a dozen mods on top of him before he can even refresh the page to see his own post.
I get the vibe from some recent threads started here by the mods and admins themselves, that they DO want to make a change and that they DO want this site to be a lil more sane as far as it's moderation goes and I think that's a great thing and that a forum of this nature would be a great step in that direction.
Because that concept only works if people are only allowed to post about other people who post in the area.
If people are allowed to bash, for example, me even though I want nothing to do in that area I'm still affected by it. I can't choose to just not go there.
You don't think that's a lil paranoid. The idea of "Hey, but what if they make fun of me on the internet!!!!I don't want anyone to have fun because I might be made fun of!!!"
It says on the first post that they'd tolerate light hearted ribbing, not actual like "You suck, go die, I hate you" sorta stuff.
Is that really what people are afraid of? That other people will be mean to them on a game message board because the mods aren't there to protect them? C'mon now?!
And mind you, I'm not into the whole "internet hostility" BS. I think the whole "trolling/flaming" thing is entirely lame and that people who are so lonely and pathetic that they have to resort to mocking people over the internet are just awful. But I understand well, "It's just the internet" and don't really care. And mind you this is coming from someone who's never really had any major problems with flaming anyone or being flamed. I certainly wouldn't be going to that forum with the intent of "Oh great, I can finally get away with ridiculing others!!YAY!!!" I just like the idea of being able to be a bit more candid and open in conversation rather than having to double check everything I say to make sure I'm not gonna have to put up with a bunch of red (or whatever the hell colour they made it now) text.
So quick everyone, make gimmick accounts and flood that poll with positive votes before the "uptights" win again!!
I seriously hope you guys don't actually do this. How would you feel if people made gimmicks to vote negatively? I don't really get this idea that the staff are people to be opposed at every turn, Jolly. We've had the best staff on the website since I've joined, at least.
I seriously hope you guys don't actually do this. How would you feel if people made gimmicks to vote negatively? I don't really get this idea that the staff are people to be opposed at every turn, Jolly. We've had the best staff on the website since I've joined, at least.
Awww, I never thought of it like that. What if people did make gimmicks to post negatively :(. Ugh, I feel awful now...
J/k, I'm not really encouraging anyone to cheat the polls, but hooray for our team and all that.
And don't get me wrong, I think this site is run a lot better than crap like Misetings (is that even a thing anymore). And I do appreciate what the mods have done right, I don't think they're entirely flawed or anything.
But I still think there's a lot they're doing wrong. And that correcting that would actually be easier than NOT correcting that.
And don't get me wrong, I think this site is run a lot better than crap like Misetings (is that even a thing anymore).
It died because the guy who owned it quit being involved and never showed up any more. The actual people running the site couldn't do some of the things he could (they didn't have permission or whatever) and some of the mods got ban-happy.
That isn't really the full history, but it's kind of the gist. It was a really awesome place to be before MB quit being attentive and a few mods got power-hungry.
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The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
Leave it up to the MTGS community though to actually be opposed to the idea of a place where their speech isn't limited and infracted though.
The thing is, if there's a standard for quality posting behavior and a portion of the userbase would otherwise fall below that, then yes their speech should be limited. We should be encouraging that portion of the usergroup to improve their posting habits through the rules and quality posting of peers. I think this does the opposite, which helps nothing. This place is relaxed enough as it is (and it's grown steadily more relaxed over the fall and winter).
You don't think that's a lil paranoid. The idea of "Hey, but what if they make fun of me on the internet!!!!I don't want anyone to have fun because I might be made fun of!!!"
No? I don't think its a little paranoid -- I mean, just look at the tone of this post here. Is it "paranoid" for me to think that posts in your style (not necessairly yours) would get amplified under a relaxed modreation ruleset? No. It's realistic.
I would refer you to Gabriel's greater internet dickwad theorum (See penny arcade).
Is that really what people are afraid of? That other people will be mean to them on a game message board because the mods aren't there to protect them? C'mon now?!
Yes, that is in general what we're trying to prevent. The idea that we can have a civil discussion despite disagreements without devolving to flaming each other is great. Time and time again it's been shown that we can't have that environment here without moderation.
I certainly wouldn't be going to that forum with the intent of "Oh great, I can finally get away with ridiculing others!!YAY!!!" I just like the idea of being able to be a bit more candid and open in conversation rather than having to double check everything I say to make sure I'm not gonna have to put up with a bunch of red (or whatever the hell colour they made it now) text.
Right you wouldn't. But you have to recognize that other people would. Besides, if you actually are interested in having reasonable discussions you wouldn't need to double check everything you say -- the rules here aren't particularly onerous. If you aren't a jerk and/or moron in your posting you won't get infracted anyway (and don't post when your pissed).
The thing is, if there's a standard for quality posting behavior and a portion of the userbase would otherwise fall below that, then yes their speech should be limited. We should be encouraging that portion of the usergroup to improve their posting habits through the rules and quality posting of peers. I think this does the opposite, which helps nothing. This place is relaxed enough as it is (and it's grown steadily more relaxed over the fall and winter).
This is what I'm talking about when I say that people here are taking the site too seriously.
With all due respect, your post comes off as incredibly condescending. You're talking about the userbase as if they're children that need be "encouraged to improve their posting habits".
This isn't a daycare center. It's a friggin internet forum for a card game. There's a whole big scary internet outside of MTGS and as scary as it might be to you, there exists forums where the MTGS mods have no say. And the stuff people say there.....HOOOOWEEE, you'd turn paler than a ghost.
Certainly you must understand that users from this very message board you once modded at often visit other sites on the internet, sites where there might not even be any rules at all. I'm talking scary, scary, like sites where they could say the F word, sites where people mercilessly flame eachother, sites where they can post naked people and even talk about naked people. Yet still, somehow MTGSalvation's more conservative style doesn't crumble from people getting to use to the more lax rules on other sites.
As for this board being lax..........
I mean, I hate to be mean but have you seen the rest of the internet? There's a reason there's so many threads like "The mods are trolls/nazis/evil" on this site as opposed to others.
I'm not saying that all the users who got a fair infraction and flipped out over it calling all the mods nazis are justified. But there's gotta be a reason why that happens more on here than other sites.
This is what I'm talking about when I say that people here are taking the site too seriously.
With all due respect, your post comes off as incredibly condescending. You're talking about the userbase as if they're children that need be "encouraged to improve their posting habits".
Have you looked at the userbase recently? A large number of them ARE children that need to be encouraged to improve their posting habits.
This isn't a daycare center. It's a friggin internet forum for a card game. There's a whole big scary internet outside of MTGS and as scary as it might be to you, there exists forums where the MTGS mods have no say. And the stuff people say there.....HOOOOWEEE, you'd turn paler than a ghost.
Right, we all know about those forums and don't desire to participate in forums like that. Hence why we are endeavoring to keep MTGS from becoming like that.
I'm not saying that all the users who got a fair infraction and flipped out over it calling all the mods nazis are justified. But there's gotta be a reason why that happens more on here than other sites.
The reason it happens more here than on other site is because people expect this forum to be like those other sites you referred to above, and get all pissy when they are forced to have a civil conversation rather than post meaningless drivel and flames.
This is what I'm talking about when I say that people here are taking the site too seriously.
Wanting the site to uphold a standard for posting behavior I feel is desirable is taking it too seriously?
With all due respect, your post comes off as incredibly condescending. You're talking about the userbase as if they're children that need be "encouraged to improve their posting habits".
No, I'm talking about the userbase as if a lot of it is coming here after being used to the internet being the ****hole you go on to admit it is. Those users aren't used to a higher posting standard and some need encouragement to get in the groove of posting to that standard. That's not condescending, that's realistic. We've seen countless members alter the way they post as they get used to the standards here just as we've seen countless posters never change how they post, get dinged for it and wind up becoming frustrated and lash out at the site and its rules.
That's the way that it works. We're not like many other sites on the internet (at least within the sphere of sites geared towards entertainment) and posters used to a lower standard of behavior either modify their behavior to match that or they don't. The site's role in that (and by site, I'm referring to everything from the rules, the staff and the other posters here) is to facilitate an easy orientation. It's not a big deal and most do a good job of it without ever being aware they're doing it.
Certainly you must understand that users from this very message board you once modded at often visit other sites on the internet, sites where there might not even be any rules at all. I'm talking scary, scary, like sites where they could say the F word, sites where people mercilessly flame eachother, sites where they can post naked people and even talk about naked people. Yet still, somehow MTGSalvation's more conservative style doesn't crumble from people getting to use to the more lax rules on other sites.
And now who's being condescending and taking things too seriously?
No? I don't think its a little paranoid -- I mean, just look at the tone of this post here. Is it "paranoid" for me to think that posts in your style (not necessairly yours) would get amplified under a relaxed modreation ruleset? No. It's realistic.
I would refer you to Gabriel's greater internet dickwad theorum (See penny arcade).
One persons light hearted ribbing is another persons deep emotional issue.
Light hearted ribbing only works when you actually know the person.
Yes, that is in general what we're trying to prevent. The idea that we can have a civil discussion despite disagreements without devolving to flaming each other is great. Time and time again it's been shown that we can't have that environment here without moderation.
Right you wouldn't. But you have to recognize that other people would. Besides, if you actually are interested in having reasonable discussions you wouldn't need to double check everything you say -- the rules here aren't particularly onerous. If you aren't a jerk and/or moron in your posting you won't get infracted anyway (and don't post when your pissed).
Again, I'm the last person to try and be specifically mean spirited with the only intent being to make the person feel bad rather than just disagreeing with the person said and debating their stance.
But you don't think the idea of "deep emotional damage" from something someone says on here is maybe...."your fault".
I mean, why am I not afraid of this? I mean, it's completely possible that someone may indeed call me a bad name on there or make fun of me. But that simply isn't a big deal. Worse case scenario, I respond and try to explain my side of the issue or just ignore it. I'm sure I'll live.
If you're that sensitive, and I promise I'm really not trying to be mean here. But maybe you should spend less time on internet forums. I could understand if people are pulling a full on "jessie slaughter" on you and sending you death threats to your home, posting all your information publicly and just hunting you down and harassing you on every account of every site you visit, but since when has that ever happened on MTGS.
If some silly "Ugh, you're dumb and you suck at magic" comment on here is enough to cause "deep emotional damage" that might be your own problem.
Is that it, is MTGS in general "too sensitive"? I'm beginning to get that vibe.
A good example is that site gaiaonline. Without getting into detail there's a part of the forums where people can (within reason) say pretty much anything they want. No language filter, no spam filter, and although flaming is discouraged and actual like hardcore racist, or over the top flames are indeed moderated, most flaming/trolling falls under the radar there. And sure, people fight and say some nasty crap to eachother but the bottom line is, they move on with their lives and understand that "It's just the internet". And hell, the rest of the site doesn't really have too much of that so it's not like it becomes some plague that spreads outside and takes down the entire place.
I think that if we had one part of this forum, where the mods sort of looked the other way that it would do a great service to the reputation of this site.
Again, I'm the last person to try and be specifically mean spirited with the only intent being to make the person feel bad rather than just disagreeing with the person said and debating their stance.
But you don't think the idea of "deep emotional damage" from something someone says on here is maybe...."your fault".
It doesn't matter whose fault it is. What matters is that we want to foster MTGsalvation as a site where people aren't going to be subjected to that regardless of if they are being a touch too sensitive or not.
What you want from MTGSalvation (a forum just like every other forum on the internet) and what I wnat (a forum where people can have civil discussions and tlak like adults for the most part) are different things.
MTGSalvation is currently much closer to what I want, you are trying to push it away from that. The question I have is: If there are so many forums like what you want out there already, why do you have to take the one forum I've managed to find thats not like that away form me?
I think that if we had one part of this forum, where the mods sort of looked the other way that it would do a great service to the reputation of this site.
In what possible way would having an area where people are allowed to be jackasses improve the reputation of the site?
I'm lukewarm about the idea. If the staff wants to try it and see how it goes it seems like a good idea. If the forum turns into a cesspool in the vein of Testing Grounds then it can be deleted.
EDIT: I voted Yes because I would like to see the idea tested. If it works then we can keep it. If it doesn't work it can be deleted.
EDIT2: The only thing that I'm cautious about is the "polite trolling" rule. Trolling is subjective. "User inability to maintain sense of humor" is also incredibly subjective. If person X says "you voted for John McCain, how does it feel to lose?" and person Y is offended, who gets hit with an infraction or warning?
It doesn't matter whose fault it is. What matters is that we want to foster MTGsalvation as a site where people aren't going to be subjected to that regardless of if they are being a touch too sensitive or not.
What you want from MTGSalvation (a forum just like every other forum on the internet) and what I wnat (a forum where people can have civil discussions and tlak like adults for the most part) are different things.
MTGSalvation is currently much closer to what I want, you are trying to push it away from that. The question I have is: If there are so many forums like what you want out there already, why do you have to take the one forum I've managed to find thats not like that away form me?
In what possible way would having an area where people are allowed to be jackasses improve the reputation of the site?
With all due respect man, you sorta missed a lotta points, projected and assumed a lot there.
By projecting I mean stuff like "we all know about those forums and don't desire to participate in forums like that"
And again, let me clarify as you and others missed this. I'm not saying I want this site to degenerate into a porn forum where everyone is at eachother's throats and saying and posting all sorts of nasty stuff. I totally understand that there's other sites for that sort of thing and hell, I don't really wanna see it either.
According to your description, we both want the same thing:
"a forum where people can have civil discussions and talk like adults for the most part"
And yes, I do feel that for the most part we have that on here.
I just think that a more relaxed part of the forums would not only NOT take away from that but possibly even encourage it, and I've seen clear examples of that.
I'm certainly not even saying that this "off topic subforum" should be allowed to devolve into a porn forum where people are at eachother's throats nor do I think the staff here is proposing that. According to the OP they kinda already covered everything you're worried about.
I'm imagining it sort of like what the blogs could have been if the mods didn't kill the test forum and subsequently kill the blogs. I certainly don't think we could or should be able to get away with posting a blog entry that's just "(insert user name) sucks, (tons of F bombs) and a random huge MEME gif" and I don't really think that'd be the intent of this subforum either.
I think it'd be nice though to have a forum where people could post light hearted topics and responses without having to fear the "heavy-handed MTGS moderation".
Sure there's other sites for that and that's great but it's nice to be able to talk about those sort of things amongst a community you already know. I think it'd be really interesting to see another more open and candid side of this community and I think this sub-forum could really do that.
I really don't think what we want is all that different. I just think you're worrying about the effect of this forum a bit too much. Hell, I don't wanna see an "excuse to flame and spam forum" either but I really don't think that's gonna happen nor do I think that's what the mods are proposing.
I really don't think what we want is all that different. I just think you're worrying about the effect of this forum a bit too much. Hell, I don't wanna see an "excuse to flame and spam forum" either but I really don't think that's gonna happen nor do I think that's what the mods are proposing.
Well, it's not a completely illusory concern. There is a certain section of the site that has had a very, very significant mark on the management of the site, though not so much from spillover as from the fact that you're welding together two very different groups of people in close quarters.
I'm lukewarm about the idea. If the staff wants to try it and see how it goes it seems like a good idea. If the forum turns into a cesspool in the vein of Testing Grounds then it can be deleted.
EDIT: I voted Yes because I would like to see the idea tested. If it works then we can keep it. If it doesn't work it can be deleted.
EDIT2: The only thing that I'm cautious about is the "polite trolling" rule. Trolling is subjective. "User inability to maintain sense of humor" is also incredibly subjective. If person X says "you voted for John McCain, how does it feel to lose?" and person Y is offended, who gets hit with an infraction or warning?
I simply don't know as I can agree with this sentiment, even if I do find the idea noble enough. If the staff gives freedom to the users, and then takes that freedom away without very, very good reasons (beyond just 'flaming and trolling'), the users will understandably be upset no matter how well-reasoned the argument against it is. TBCITE is the most obvious and recent example, and there are dozens more (just on this site, I'd say there are probably millions of examples across the internet as a whole), look at how much of a response that caused on all sides, this could very easily be worse if the proposed forum/thread is opened to the whole userbase.
@JollytheOctopuss: the thing that I don't approve of isn't the lawlessness of the proposed forum/thread, it's the purposelessness. Even on the less-strictly-moderated sites that make up most of the internet, even on like 4chan, it's considered rude to make a statement that has no bearing on the current topic; giving people a place where there is no inherent topic will, to my way of thinking, just encourage babbling and send the message that rudeness is a worthwhile quality, at least in that thread.
I simply don't know as I can agree with this sentiment, even if I do find the idea noble enough. If the staff gives freedom to the users, and then takes that freedom away without very, very good reasons (beyond just 'flaming and trolling'), the users will understandably be upset no matter how well-reasoned the argument against it is. TBCITE is the most obvious and recent example, and there are dozens more (just on this site, I'd say there are probably millions of examples across the internet as a whole), look at how much of a response that caused on all sides, this could very easily be worse if the proposed forum/thread is opened to the whole userbase.
@JollytheOctopuss: the thing that I don't approve of isn't the lawlessness of the proposed forum/thread, it's the purposelessness. Even on the less-strictly-moderated sites that make up most of the internet, even on like 4chan, it's considered rude to make a statement that has no bearing on the current topic; giving people a place where there is no inherent topic will, to my way of thinking, just encourage babbling and send the message that rudeness is a worthwhile quality, at least in that thread.
If the staff can come up with a solution to this obvious problem then I don't see an issue with this idea.
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I think it'd be nice though to have a forum where people could post light hearted topics and responses without having to fear the "heavy-handed MTGS moderation".
We already have that though. Thats the whole point of water cooler talk.
I really don't think what we want is all that different. I just think you're worrying about the effect of this forum a bit too much. Hell, I don't wanna see an "excuse to flame and spam forum" either but I really don't think that's gonna happen nor do I think that's what the mods are proposing.
From what I understand there's been two previous attempts to do this, and both have devolved into an excuse to flame and spam forum. At a certain point we have to realize that it doesn't work, and stick with what does wwork.
Gutter members... complaining that a forum with lax rules would cause bad behavior to spill over into the rest of the forums? Is this real life?
I thought we just had a huge thread on this... where you all decided that having a forum with less rules definitely does NOT cause other parts of the site to be affected?
I simply don't know as I can agree with this sentiment, even if I do find the idea noble enough. If the staff gives freedom to the users, and then takes that freedom away without very, very good reasons (beyond just 'flaming and trolling'), the users will understandably be upset no matter how well-reasoned the argument against it is. TBCITE is the most obvious and recent example, and there are dozens more (just on this site, I'd say there are probably millions of examples across the internet as a whole), look at how much of a response that caused on all sides, this could very easily be worse if the proposed forum/thread is opened to the whole userbase.
@JollytheOctopuss: the thing that I don't approve of isn't the lawlessness of the proposed forum/thread, it's the purposelessness. Even on the less-strictly-moderated sites that make up most of the internet, even on like 4chan, it's considered rude to make a statement that has no bearing on the current topic; giving people a place where there is no inherent topic will, to my way of thinking, just encourage babbling and send the message that rudeness is a worthwhile quality, at least in that thread.
I think people are misunderstanding what the mods are proposing here. I mean, if friggin 4chan can agree to not post entirely off topic posts in threads than I'm damn well sure that MTGS, the single most conservative and reserved forum I've EVER been a part of could handle it.
Again, from what I got from the OP. I'd sort of imagine this forum tolerating what would kinda be along the lines of what's tolerated on the blogs. Like just more freeform stuff as opposed to just aimless spam and flames. Like people could get away with just starting a topic about what they did during the day.
As for the purpose? I think that's all relative. I might sound kinda far out here, but what is the purpose of any forum on here in that sense? If the forum encourages people to communicate, relax and have a good time with eachother than I'd say that it's served it's purpose.
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True. If there really is no community demand for it then it may not be the most desirable solution. But just looking at the EDH offtopic thread, people seem to enjoy having a thread to post random offtopic thoughts without having to create an entire thread for it in WCT. I would say about 100% of the posts in that topic would not have warranted a new thread being created for that post, but the users still seem to enjoy having the appropriate place to post stuff like that.
I shy away from saying this would be for our homeless users, but. . . . . . I hope you get my meaning
Leave it up to the MTGS community though to actually be opposed to the idea of a place where their speech isn't limited and infracted though.
I don't really see the problem with it, sure you're gonna get some people in there who are gonna be too uptight, but hell if you're too uptight for it, just don't post in the forum. Why is this so hard for people to grasp?
I could live with a lil "Mini-gutter" forum open to all users. I mean, IMO the actual "gutter" was just toooooo asinine. I mean, it might have changed since I last checked but the brief moment I did visit I just recall getting a headache from all the "Lol, 1st Post!!! GTFO! Leet Haxxorz" crap but I think this would be better.
I see this as being a sort of example of what the MTGS forums could be if the mods relaxed a bit and let things that truly didn't matter slide and I think that would be beautiful. It allows users who feel the moderation is a bit heavy handed to communicate in an environment where they wouldn't have to worry about being infracted for entirely insignificant reasons.
I think this would be a GREAT service to the community and I'm behind it 100%.
So quick everyone, make gimmick accounts and flood that poll with positive votes before the "uptights" win again!!
Because that concept only works if people are only allowed to post about other people who post in the area.
If people are allowed to bash, for example, me even though I want nothing to do in that area I'm still affected by it. I can't choose to just not go there.
Yep, and the mods ruined that and now thanks to them the blogs are ruined too.
And I know, I know "But it was an excuse for people to spam and a nightmare to moderate".
But it's a nightmare the mods are creating themselves. Why not simply try, and I know this is gonna sound crazy....but why not try just leaving it alone. It's 1 part of the forum. Providing the people aren't posting porn and death threats, just let it roll.
That's one of the things that bugs me about this forum, like just how seriously it's taken. I mean, don't get me wrong I'm certainly not suggesting we just let this place deteriorate. But it just seems kinda ridiculous to me that the mods treat this place as if it were some kind of center of important world news and affairs where every post needed to be screened for content lest it may offend the wrong person and bring about global disorder.
Can we all take a step back and remember that it's just a forum about a card game? No one's gonna get hurt if a "less then constructive" post slips through the cracks uninfracted.
I understand this is a popular site and you wanna maintain a standard and that's fair enough but I figured that a sort of "public mini-gutter" could be the perfect balance between letting the users enjoy the site and letting the mods enjoy the site.
I think the the idea of the whole "Oh, but what if the users begin to get to comfortable and act naughty outside of the forum!!!" Is just ridiculous. Firstly it again falls into that whole "you're taking it too seriously" thing and secondly...this is MTGsalvation. The second anyone says anything off colour in the wrong place he'll have a dozen mods on top of him before he can even refresh the page to see his own post.
I get the vibe from some recent threads started here by the mods and admins themselves, that they DO want to make a change and that they DO want this site to be a lil more sane as far as it's moderation goes and I think that's a great thing and that a forum of this nature would be a great step in that direction.
You don't think that's a lil paranoid. The idea of "Hey, but what if they make fun of me on the internet!!!!I don't want anyone to have fun because I might be made fun of!!!"
It says on the first post that they'd tolerate light hearted ribbing, not actual like "You suck, go die, I hate you" sorta stuff.
Is that really what people are afraid of? That other people will be mean to them on a game message board because the mods aren't there to protect them? C'mon now?!
And mind you, I'm not into the whole "internet hostility" BS. I think the whole "trolling/flaming" thing is entirely lame and that people who are so lonely and pathetic that they have to resort to mocking people over the internet are just awful. But I understand well, "It's just the internet" and don't really care. And mind you this is coming from someone who's never really had any major problems with flaming anyone or being flamed. I certainly wouldn't be going to that forum with the intent of "Oh great, I can finally get away with ridiculing others!!YAY!!!" I just like the idea of being able to be a bit more candid and open in conversation rather than having to double check everything I say to make sure I'm not gonna have to put up with a bunch of red (or whatever the hell colour they made it now) text.
I seriously hope you guys don't actually do this. How would you feel if people made gimmicks to vote negatively? I don't really get this idea that the staff are people to be opposed at every turn, Jolly. We've had the best staff on the website since I've joined, at least.
Awww, I never thought of it like that. What if people did make gimmicks to post negatively :(. Ugh, I feel awful now...
J/k, I'm not really encouraging anyone to cheat the polls, but hooray for our team and all that.
And don't get me wrong, I think this site is run a lot better than crap like Misetings (is that even a thing anymore). And I do appreciate what the mods have done right, I don't think they're entirely flawed or anything.
But I still think there's a lot they're doing wrong. And that correcting that would actually be easier than NOT correcting that.
It died because the guy who owned it quit being involved and never showed up any more. The actual people running the site couldn't do some of the things he could (they didn't have permission or whatever) and some of the mods got ban-happy.
That isn't really the full history, but it's kind of the gist. It was a really awesome place to be before MB quit being attentive and a few mods got power-hungry.
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
The thing is, if there's a standard for quality posting behavior and a portion of the userbase would otherwise fall below that, then yes their speech should be limited. We should be encouraging that portion of the usergroup to improve their posting habits through the rules and quality posting of peers. I think this does the opposite, which helps nothing. This place is relaxed enough as it is (and it's grown steadily more relaxed over the fall and winter).
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
No? I don't think its a little paranoid -- I mean, just look at the tone of this post here. Is it "paranoid" for me to think that posts in your style (not necessairly yours) would get amplified under a relaxed modreation ruleset? No. It's realistic.
I would refer you to Gabriel's greater internet dickwad theorum (See penny arcade).
One persons light hearted ribbing is another persons deep emotional issue.
Light hearted ribbing only works when you actually know the person.
Yes, that is in general what we're trying to prevent. The idea that we can have a civil discussion despite disagreements without devolving to flaming each other is great. Time and time again it's been shown that we can't have that environment here without moderation.
Right you wouldn't. But you have to recognize that other people would. Besides, if you actually are interested in having reasonable discussions you wouldn't need to double check everything you say -- the rules here aren't particularly onerous. If you aren't a jerk and/or moron in your posting you won't get infracted anyway (and don't post when your pissed).
This is what I'm talking about when I say that people here are taking the site too seriously.
With all due respect, your post comes off as incredibly condescending. You're talking about the userbase as if they're children that need be "encouraged to improve their posting habits".
This isn't a daycare center. It's a friggin internet forum for a card game. There's a whole big scary internet outside of MTGS and as scary as it might be to you, there exists forums where the MTGS mods have no say. And the stuff people say there.....HOOOOWEEE, you'd turn paler than a ghost.
Certainly you must understand that users from this very message board you once modded at often visit other sites on the internet, sites where there might not even be any rules at all. I'm talking scary, scary, like sites where they could say the F word, sites where people mercilessly flame eachother, sites where they can post naked people and even talk about naked people. Yet still, somehow MTGSalvation's more conservative style doesn't crumble from people getting to use to the more lax rules on other sites.
As for this board being lax..........
I mean, I hate to be mean but have you seen the rest of the internet? There's a reason there's so many threads like "The mods are trolls/nazis/evil" on this site as opposed to others.
I'm not saying that all the users who got a fair infraction and flipped out over it calling all the mods nazis are justified. But there's gotta be a reason why that happens more on here than other sites.
Have you looked at the userbase recently? A large number of them ARE children that need to be encouraged to improve their posting habits.
Right, we all know about those forums and don't desire to participate in forums like that. Hence why we are endeavoring to keep MTGS from becoming like that.
The "somehow" is directly a result of the moderation on this site. Period.
The reason it happens more here than on other site is because people expect this forum to be like those other sites you referred to above, and get all pissy when they are forced to have a civil conversation rather than post meaningless drivel and flames.
Wanting the site to uphold a standard for posting behavior I feel is desirable is taking it too seriously?
No, I'm talking about the userbase as if a lot of it is coming here after being used to the internet being the ****hole you go on to admit it is. Those users aren't used to a higher posting standard and some need encouragement to get in the groove of posting to that standard. That's not condescending, that's realistic. We've seen countless members alter the way they post as they get used to the standards here just as we've seen countless posters never change how they post, get dinged for it and wind up becoming frustrated and lash out at the site and its rules.
That's the way that it works. We're not like many other sites on the internet (at least within the sphere of sites geared towards entertainment) and posters used to a lower standard of behavior either modify their behavior to match that or they don't. The site's role in that (and by site, I'm referring to everything from the rules, the staff and the other posters here) is to facilitate an easy orientation. It's not a big deal and most do a good job of it without ever being aware they're doing it.
And now who's being condescending and taking things too seriously?
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Again, I'm the last person to try and be specifically mean spirited with the only intent being to make the person feel bad rather than just disagreeing with the person said and debating their stance.
But you don't think the idea of "deep emotional damage" from something someone says on here is maybe...."your fault".
I mean, why am I not afraid of this? I mean, it's completely possible that someone may indeed call me a bad name on there or make fun of me. But that simply isn't a big deal. Worse case scenario, I respond and try to explain my side of the issue or just ignore it. I'm sure I'll live.
If you're that sensitive, and I promise I'm really not trying to be mean here. But maybe you should spend less time on internet forums. I could understand if people are pulling a full on "jessie slaughter" on you and sending you death threats to your home, posting all your information publicly and just hunting you down and harassing you on every account of every site you visit, but since when has that ever happened on MTGS.
If some silly "Ugh, you're dumb and you suck at magic" comment on here is enough to cause "deep emotional damage" that might be your own problem.
Is that it, is MTGS in general "too sensitive"? I'm beginning to get that vibe.
A good example is that site gaiaonline. Without getting into detail there's a part of the forums where people can (within reason) say pretty much anything they want. No language filter, no spam filter, and although flaming is discouraged and actual like hardcore racist, or over the top flames are indeed moderated, most flaming/trolling falls under the radar there. And sure, people fight and say some nasty crap to eachother but the bottom line is, they move on with their lives and understand that "It's just the internet". And hell, the rest of the site doesn't really have too much of that so it's not like it becomes some plague that spreads outside and takes down the entire place.
I think that if we had one part of this forum, where the mods sort of looked the other way that it would do a great service to the reputation of this site.
It doesn't matter whose fault it is. What matters is that we want to foster MTGsalvation as a site where people aren't going to be subjected to that regardless of if they are being a touch too sensitive or not.
What you want from MTGSalvation (a forum just like every other forum on the internet) and what I wnat (a forum where people can have civil discussions and tlak like adults for the most part) are different things.
MTGSalvation is currently much closer to what I want, you are trying to push it away from that. The question I have is: If there are so many forums like what you want out there already, why do you have to take the one forum I've managed to find thats not like that away form me?
In what possible way would having an area where people are allowed to be jackasses improve the reputation of the site?
EDIT: I voted Yes because I would like to see the idea tested. If it works then we can keep it. If it doesn't work it can be deleted.
EDIT2: The only thing that I'm cautious about is the "polite trolling" rule. Trolling is subjective. "User inability to maintain sense of humor" is also incredibly subjective. If person X says "you voted for John McCain, how does it feel to lose?" and person Y is offended, who gets hit with an infraction or warning?
scumbag
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With all due respect man, you sorta missed a lotta points, projected and assumed a lot there.
By projecting I mean stuff like "we all know about those forums and don't desire to participate in forums like that"
And again, let me clarify as you and others missed this. I'm not saying I want this site to degenerate into a porn forum where everyone is at eachother's throats and saying and posting all sorts of nasty stuff. I totally understand that there's other sites for that sort of thing and hell, I don't really wanna see it either.
According to your description, we both want the same thing:
"a forum where people can have civil discussions and talk like adults for the most part"
And yes, I do feel that for the most part we have that on here.
I just think that a more relaxed part of the forums would not only NOT take away from that but possibly even encourage it, and I've seen clear examples of that.
I'm certainly not even saying that this "off topic subforum" should be allowed to devolve into a porn forum where people are at eachother's throats nor do I think the staff here is proposing that. According to the OP they kinda already covered everything you're worried about.
I'm imagining it sort of like what the blogs could have been if the mods didn't kill the test forum and subsequently kill the blogs. I certainly don't think we could or should be able to get away with posting a blog entry that's just "(insert user name) sucks, (tons of F bombs) and a random huge MEME gif" and I don't really think that'd be the intent of this subforum either.
I think it'd be nice though to have a forum where people could post light hearted topics and responses without having to fear the "heavy-handed MTGS moderation".
Sure there's other sites for that and that's great but it's nice to be able to talk about those sort of things amongst a community you already know. I think it'd be really interesting to see another more open and candid side of this community and I think this sub-forum could really do that.
I really don't think what we want is all that different. I just think you're worrying about the effect of this forum a bit too much. Hell, I don't wanna see an "excuse to flame and spam forum" either but I really don't think that's gonna happen nor do I think that's what the mods are proposing.
Well, it's not a completely illusory concern. There is a certain section of the site that has had a very, very significant mark on the management of the site, though not so much from spillover as from the fact that you're welding together two very different groups of people in close quarters.
I simply don't know as I can agree with this sentiment, even if I do find the idea noble enough. If the staff gives freedom to the users, and then takes that freedom away without very, very good reasons (beyond just 'flaming and trolling'), the users will understandably be upset no matter how well-reasoned the argument against it is. TBCITE is the most obvious and recent example, and there are dozens more (just on this site, I'd say there are probably millions of examples across the internet as a whole), look at how much of a response that caused on all sides, this could very easily be worse if the proposed forum/thread is opened to the whole userbase.
@JollytheOctopuss: the thing that I don't approve of isn't the lawlessness of the proposed forum/thread, it's the purposelessness. Even on the less-strictly-moderated sites that make up most of the internet, even on like 4chan, it's considered rude to make a statement that has no bearing on the current topic; giving people a place where there is no inherent topic will, to my way of thinking, just encourage babbling and send the message that rudeness is a worthwhile quality, at least in that thread.
If the staff can come up with a solution to this obvious problem then I don't see an issue with this idea.
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We already have that though. Thats the whole point of water cooler talk.
From what I understand there's been two previous attempts to do this, and both have devolved into an excuse to flame and spam forum. At a certain point we have to realize that it doesn't work, and stick with what does wwork.
I thought we just had a huge thread on this... where you all decided that having a forum with less rules definitely does NOT cause other parts of the site to be affected?
I think people are misunderstanding what the mods are proposing here. I mean, if friggin 4chan can agree to not post entirely off topic posts in threads than I'm damn well sure that MTGS, the single most conservative and reserved forum I've EVER been a part of could handle it.
Again, from what I got from the OP. I'd sort of imagine this forum tolerating what would kinda be along the lines of what's tolerated on the blogs. Like just more freeform stuff as opposed to just aimless spam and flames. Like people could get away with just starting a topic about what they did during the day.
As for the purpose? I think that's all relative. I might sound kinda far out here, but what is the purpose of any forum on here in that sense? If the forum encourages people to communicate, relax and have a good time with eachother than I'd say that it's served it's purpose.