Personally I love the strictness of this site. When I go to other boards it can become impossible to state an opinion without getting the hell flamed out of you. Free speach works both ways, and the rules as they enforce them here has allowed some of the best debates and discussions.
It is nice to be able to discuss something and have rules enforcement which requires people to actually try and express a valid critisism than just call me a name and bury my post under spam so nobody reads it. I could care less if people disagree with me or hate me, but it makes me sad for humanity when the internet is teaching people the best way to respond to an idea you do not like is to call them a retard.
Expression of personal opinions is fine, as long as it doesn't break the rules (usually, it doesn't). Even critisism is fine (in my book) because constructive criticism is a good way to let your feelings be known and possibly fix a problem.
I was having a look at the site you referenced. The rules do seem to be rather strict, as you stated, but some of the way things were executed were a bit harsh even to MY mind. I don't think I'd want to be relegated to the Dung Heap or get a personal message from a moderator stating my post was "******".
Different rules for different sites, of course, and on the whole I agree with the penalties that were handed out to the few whose infractions I looked at. I just disagree with the execution.
My only concern would be that sometimes the rules here seem enforced more strongly then other times, almost as if it depends on the mood of the moderator. During rumor season, the Mill is buzzing and sometimes entire threads get cleaned up from spam, multiple warnings are given out, and dozens of posts deleted. Other times it seems rather lax.
I'm fine with either, but I'd envision it getting confusing to newer members that some threads are allowed to get a bit off-topic, while some are not. Not a complaint, just an observation.
Edit: I meant to quote your post asking for anyones concerns.
Edit2: I used to frequent the Gleemax forums, and I'll be the first to say the moderating there is terrible! They give out occasional condescending warnings "Play nice, kids" but never actually do anything. I stopped going there.
It really depends how naturally the topic shifted and how connected the shift was to the original subject, as well as the likelyhood it will return to the original topic. Discussion of any given subject naturally and must shift a little.
Personally I love the strictness of this site. When I go to other boards it can become impossible to state an opinion without getting the hell flamed out of you. Free speach works both ways, and the rules as they enforce them here has allowed some of the best debates and discussions.
I (bugger, my text is coming out pink becuase cut/pasted something from Sakura :swear:) That's better. Anyway, I agree. I've been using MOTL for a while and I do like that site, but the mods never seem to do anything about flaming, which makes it really hard to discuss a topic. I actually called someone on it in a forum there a few weeks ago. I wouldn't mind being a mod, but it' a drag to do the work of one when I'm not one.
My only concern would be that sometimes the rules here seem enforced more strongly then other times, almost as if it depends on the mood of the moderator. During rumor season, the Mill is buzzing and sometimes entire threads get cleaned up from spam, multiple warnings are given out, and dozens of posts deleted. Other times it seems rather lax.
I'm fine with either, but I'd envision it getting confusing to newer members that some threads are allowed to get a bit off-topic, while some are not. Not a complaint, just an observation.
Edit: I meant to quote your post asking for anyones concerns.
Edit2: I used to frequent the Gleemax forums, and I'll be the first to say the moderating there is terrible! They give out occasional condescending warnings "Play nice, kids" but never actually do anything. I stopped going there.
It's all right, I figured that's what you meant.
Moderator actions can be subjective; it's something we continually work on, and actually discuss. Blatant disregard of the rules is something that is easy to judge, but certain things are harder than others. Some mods deal with it differently. I can only speak for myself in that, though.
Sometimes, if you think that a mod has done something you don't agree with, a PM is appropriate. It's a lot better than flaming that mod on his or her helpdesk, or making a "~ Sucks" thread. In your PM, do try and be respectful, even if you're upset. I know I'm more inclined to listen to someone who ISN'T calling me everything but a human being.
I can't comment on the Gleemax forums except as a user; I'm not on staff there.
There's a general rule I follow, and it seems to match the one in Debate fairly well: Attacking an idea is fine if you do it in the right way. Attacking a person is not.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
YWhat's wrong with telling a person they should use tags? Should it be pretty natural that we try to help and correct each other? That way the mods will have less work.
Except that:
1) Why should a user listen to what you say?
2) What happens when a user then says "um why should I?"
3) What happens if the user doesn't listen, and repeatedly fails to use card tags? Just report it. That way, a *moderator* has told the user to follow the rules.
4) What happens when newer users start to think that you're the moderator because you're telling him what to do? Now this user is less inclined to pay attention to a real moderator.
If you want to be helpful without being bossy, just include "[card]Card Tags[/card] == [card]Card Tags[/card]" (with a relevant card) in your post.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO "I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
Except that:
1) Why should a user listen to what you say?
2) What happens when a user then says "um why should I?"
3) What happens if the user doesn't listen, and repeatedly fails to use card tags? Just report it. That way, a *moderator* has told the user to follow the rules.
4) What happens when newer users start to think that you're the moderator because you're telling him what to do? Now this user is less inclined to pay attention to a real moderator.
If you want to be helpful without being bossy, just include "[card]Card Tags[/card] == [card]Card Tags[/card]" (with a relevant card) in your post.
The worst case, to me, is when a thread has like 15 posts saying "Move this thread to..". This is something new people fail to see happening (Heck, even i am quilty.) but you know, once you've used the forums for a while, you understand that stuff will be dealt with, it will be moved. Not in a minute, but when a mod notices it, just report it.
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The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
I think the people that get warnings and what not here are normally new. My friend told me he did not like this site because its "cliquish" and I am going to have to agree.
I am not saying that the Mod's are meaner to the new people. The problem is some of the rules and the 'way things work around here' are not that intuitive.
Lets look at the nuances of 'back seat moding:' Don't lecture the person about their broken rule, If I say "use card tags [tags]" I think many people would not feel that is 'lecturing,' but I would get a warning. Also its kind of misleading about if that is 'back seat moding,' because many many people on the forums say things like 'oh by the way [tags]' which does NOT get them a warning. There are very subtle things on the forum that first timers would not get the first time.
I feel there are too many rules, or subtly in the rules, that are just 'understood' between people that have been going here every day, or for a long time. Take this warning: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2755709&postcount=6
Clearly, everyone that has been here KNOWS that that is a warning or an infraction, (but I am guessing the person that did it do not THINK he was using 'derogatory statements'). Also, the fact that each little section of the forums has its own rules and nuances is kinda hard for someone that is so new they do not know how to merge and delete posts on their own posts yet.
Now, all that being said, the mod normally only give out warnings to new timers, and lets face it, warnings are just that, warnings. They do not mean anything, BUT to a new timer, it does not seem that way. Its seems like (if they get one or two very quickly) that we are saying "hey, N00B, get out of here! We do not take kindly to strangers in these parts."
This place is 'strict' because the rules are all enforced to the letter, while on other sites things are more lax.
This is not a critique, just an observation.
Take this warning: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2755709&postcount=6
Clearly, everyone that has been here KNOWS that that is a warning or an infraction, (but I am guessing the person that did it do not THINK he was using 'derogatory statements').
It's rather ironic that you used this post as an example, since the poster edited the content of his post after the warning was issued.
Anyway, on topic: you do have a point but in my experience the moderators make a fair attempt to explain the rules and give unofficial warnings to new members before handing out official warnings. It's usually pretty easy to tell the difference between someone who simply isn't aware of the rules and someone who doesn't care to follow them.
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
I think the people that get warnings and what not here are normally new. My friend told me he did not like this site because its "cliquish" and I am going to have to agree.
I am not saying that the Mod's are meaner to the new people. The problem is some of the rules and the 'way things work around here' are not that intuitive. The rules are scattered around in different areas.
Lets look at the nuances of 'back seat moding:' Don't lecture the person about their broken rule, If I say "use card tags [tags]" I think many people would not feel that is 'lecturing,' but I would get a warning. Also its kind of misleading about if that is 'back seat moding,' because many many people on the forums say things like 'oh by the way [tags]' which would NOT get them a warning. There are very subtle things on the forum that first timers would not get the first time.
I feel there are too many rules, or subtly in the rules, that are just 'understood' between people that have been going here every day, or for a long time. Take this warning: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2755709&postcount=6
Clearly, everyone that has been here KNOWS that that is a warning or an infraction, (but I am guessing the person that did it do not THINK he was using 'derogatory statements'). Also, the fact that each little section of the forums has its own rules and nuances is kinda hard for someone that is so new they do not know how to merge and delete posts on their own posts yet.
Now, all that being said, the mod normally only give out warnings to new timers, and lets face it, warnings are just that, warnings. They do not mean anything, BUT to a new timer, it does not seem that way. Its seems like (if they get one or two very quickly) that we are saying "hey, N00B, get out of here! We do not take kindly to strangers in these parts."
This place is 'strict' because the rules are all enforced to the letter, while on other sites things are more lax.
I have often found that in quite a few cases, a friendly PM works like a charm. In cases where that isn't appropriate, then we use the warning/infraction system. Unless it's something that I am fairly sure that the user knows is wrong, I will warn before infracting. A lot of the time, informal warnings are given- modtext without an actual note in the user's record.
We don't want to drive people away- we don't pick on people, we don't go around looking for a reason to give penalties.
In the card-tag situation: the only place where that is 100% relevant is Rulings and perhaps the strategy forums, where deck-tags are used intead. The rule is there because of reasons stated in this thread already, and one of the Rulings mods has shown an acceptable way to inform a person that card-tags are needed when asking a rulings question.
I agree that backseat modding might be a very subjective thing, but it IS why we have the report post button. It might surprise you to learn that even I use it.
Some of our rules are somewhat "unwritten"; such as relaxed spam rules in certain areas, and the special way things are handled in Debate regarding inflammatory statements.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
I have often found that in quite a few cases, a friendly PM works like a charm. In cases where that isn't appropriate, then we use the warning/infraction system. Unless it's something that I am fairly sure that the user knows is wrong, I will warn before infracting. A lot of the time, informal warnings are given- modtext without an actual note in the user's record.
But, again, this differs from mod to mod, and therefor, from section to section. For my first year, the two posts I made outside of the the CCC part got me a warning/infraction.
Well.. more or less.
Also, the fact that each little section of the forums has its own rules and nuances is kinda hard for someone that is so new they do not know how to merge and delete posts on their own posts yet.
My advice to them: lurk moar
If you can't handle common sense (and let's face it, the bulk of the individual subforum rules are based on common sense for each area), you should probably just lurk until you can post without making an ass of yourself.
Now, all that being said, the mod normally only give out warnings to new timers
That would be because:
A) newbies tend to have not yet had contact with the rules or just not 'get' them
B) newbies frequently just aren't used to the site and post in a manner they're used to from elsewhere, which can often be a problem
C) older members don't often get warned because they have a greater chance of knowing the rules so therefore they tend not to break them
D) older members who do break the rules tend to earn infractions, either due to many past warnings or a mod's sense that the user ought to know better (a user here for three years who has gone out of his way to attack another member will likely get an infraction from me)
and lets face it, warnings are just that, warnings. They do not mean anything, BUT to a new timer, it does not seem that way. Its seems like (if they get one or two very quickly) that we are saying "hey, N00B, get out of here! We do not take kindly to strangers in these parts."
And I'd say the site's better off for it. If a problematic new poster can't shape up, he might as well ship off. And if they're going to have a freakout over a single warning, I question if they have a good enough headspace to be a quality member of the site, anyway.
This place is 'strict' because the rules are all enforced to the letter, while on other sites things are more lax.
Believe it or not, a lot of the mods swing on the the lenient side of things here. I try to give the benefit of the doubt as much as possible, but that can only go so far.
Honestly, though, I laugh the concept of Salvation being too strict. We're middle-of-the-road at worst, but definitely more laidback than I'd prefer.
Honestly, though, I laugh the concept of Salvation being too strict. We're middle-of-the-road at worst, but definitely more laidback than I'd prefer.
This statement coming from you is funny. You have the reputation for being the strictest mod, and your anti hand holding opinion in all wakes of life is well known by all. Your not 'user friendly' which is what people look for nowadays.
If a problematic new poster can't shape up, he might as well ship off. And if they're going to have a freakout over a single warning, I question if they have a good enough headspace to be a quality member of the site, anyway.
that we are saying "hey, N00B, get out of here!"
This is a perfect example of what I was talking about. This thread seems to have a very cliquish anti new person mindset.
This statement coming from you is funny. You have the reputation for being the strictest mod, and your anti hand holding opinion in all wake of life is well known by all. Your not 'user friendly' which is what people look for nowadays.
I wouldn't say I'm the strictest mod (that honour goes to Annorax in my view, who is badass and suffers no indiscretions), especially given how often I quietly give the benefit of the doubt. I'm simply more vocal and stern when it comes to cut-and-dry rules violations.
You are, however, correct about the rest. I'm not about holding hands and being user friendly. Users shouldn't need to have their hands held, the rules here aren't impossibly complex. And contrary to whatever reputation has been whipped up for me today, I tend on the whole to be rather forgiving if I see a user at least trying to improve. It's the number of posters that don't make the attempt that distress me. Those are also the ones I'm most vocal about.
Which means "don't post unless you already know this place well." Which is basically what I was saying about this thread being cliquish.
That's not cliquish, that's just common sense. Flying in ignorant then wondering why you're getting penalties when you break rules you never bothered to familiarize yourself with is just dumb. You don't go to a foreign country and act as you would at home expecting things to run the same. Different places have different standards for behaviour. That's not cliquish.
If you can't grasp the three basics (spamming, flaming and doubleposting/necroing), then yes, you should lurk until you do. Even I lurked in some sections to get a lay of the land first.
that we are saying "hey, N00B, get out of here!"
No, that's saying "If you can't be bothered to understand and follow the rules, get out", which isn't even a statement directly solely at new posters.
It has nothing to do with being new. Older members are just as capable of posting badly and I'd offer them the same advice. It's just that a great number of new posters are guilty of this since they have little to no experience as to what is acceptable behaviour here. Which is why I'd advise them to gain that experience.
"We do not take kindly to strangers in these parts."
This is a perfect example of what I was talking about. This thread seems to have a very cliquish anti new person mindset. Basically a "if you do not know the rules AKA are new, get lots of warnings and leave."
We're not anti-new people. Far from it. I'm personally anti-new crappy poster (and yet also anti-old crappy poster which you conveniently ignored/forgot). I welcome quality posters both new and old, but no, we don't take kindly to crappy posters here. Go figure.
Yeah, I do not think your the strictest. I think you got your rep because your warnings are more 'colorful' than most. I find you stern but fair, which is good. Your gruff exterior just scares a lot of people off.
I do think that the fact that this topic was started by a guy named "budget player cadet" is kind of funny. Since there are two types of magic players.
1)The one that goes to PTQ's and calls the judge over when anything happens. Who knows all the rules and follows them.
2)And the player that says "Hey, man. Its just a game."
I have watched these two kinds of players play. It always comes down to where the game takes place. If its at a PTQ, the player 2 loses or gets kicked out. And if its in a fun game with a group of friends, player 1 gets the boot.
Most of this site is like a PTQ, and sometimes player 2 wanders in.
Too many new users feel that this forum about a game, should be lax.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO "I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
I, quite frankly think that this forum is a bit loose. I've only had one infraction, and this it:
Quote from myself »
Alright, I know some people are going to label this post as spam, but I honestly think the meaning of life is cheese. Now, this is probably just because I really like cheese (I'm going downstairs to get some after this post), but cheese for some reason just feels really meaningful to me.
I advise you to give up on these forums, or start kissing ass. The mods here aren't anyone special, and at least some of them don't seem to attempt impartiality. Also, they take themselves and this site way too seriously.
All of that may well be true in your opinion, but I'd appreciate if you could cool your tone a bit. Thanks.-AoK
CCR: So why should you and this hypothetical user spam up a thread with post after post of whining about who's supposed to do what?
Just don't. Report the post, let the mods handle it. If you feel a need to boss someone around, try to think instead of the glee of siccing the mods on the poster. If you're tired of seeing users break a certain rule, feel free to gripe about that when you report the post (and I'm pretty sure the mod will commiserate with you - if something is bad enough for you to notice it, you can be sure the mod's tired of seeing it, too.)
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO "I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
I've read the post and I don't understand what's wrong with it. Everyone tells him that his names both sound like pronsites, and he says 'you're right, but to make it clear, I'm not gay'. So what's wrong with it? He just tells us that he isn't gay?
Perhaps it would help if you saw the text as it was at the time the infraction was issued:
lmao, sure but i'm not gay, timmy is and spike.
(Incidentally, this is precisely why editing after a mod edits is against the rules.)
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
I advise you to give up on these forums, or start kissing ass. The mods here aren't anyone special, and at least some of them don't seem to attempt impartiality. Also, they take themselves and this site way too seriously.
Good way to start picking fights in a way and/or be blunt and to the point. Not sure where your taking this one.
Humor is in and of itself only a contribution in subforums that aren't serious. Besides, it's funnier to be funny *and* contribute.
Its even more sad when people DO Contribute and be funny and still get nailed...
in short: Each week the site does get more strict. Not sure if its the trend of BS rising, the trend of most people getting power trips, and/or no one caring anymore. But granted the more popular a site gets the more crap that happens and stress increases both on forums and in mind.
EVERYONE LIGHTEN THE HELL UP! When a site BASED on fun becomes tiring, boring, and TOO serious based on rules the site chokes itself and loses its soul of Fun.
Its sad that I NOW look back onto TFE, KCW, and others and understand why they acted the way they did...
Besides users not using cardtags at all, I've found users do new things to defeat the use of cardtags, such as adding a space after the card (e.g., Lightning Bolt ) or misspelling the name of the card (e.g., Wort, the Raid Mother). Yeah, they're innocent mistakes, but they aren't really report worthy. Because I can't say anything, the mistakes continue to be repeated, much to my frustration when the "this card cannot be found" box comes up on Gatherer. What is the proper way to handle this?
On a personal note, I think that users should be able to say "please use cardtags", notwithstanding the arguments made above. I would advocate the inclusion of the message as being incidental to an otherwise legitimate post in the question; posts solely to point out errors would not be permissible.
Wut can i do 2 make this good it is beter than my friend deck (who sucks LOL) buti wunt 2 kno how 2 make it better
Then about 10 minutes later
Quote from Some champ! »
Why is no 1 taliking? any1?
You want to see what happens to a forum where spam is allowed? Go to the official magic forums.
I personally hate forums like that. Thats why I stick around here.
All it takes is a little effort and common sense. If you walk into a club that has several simple rules posted at the entrance, and you immediately break one of those rules, you will probably get some form of warning. If it keeps up, you will more than likely be shown the door.
I advise you to give up on these forums, or start kissing ass. The mods here aren't anyone special, and at least some of them don't seem to attempt impartiality. Also, they take themselves and this site way too seriously.
All of that may well be true in your opinion, but I'd appreciate if you could cool your tone a bit. Thanks.-AoK
You edited my post in a "Speak Your Mind" forum about mods being too strict. Even I didn't think things were that bad. It's time for me to take my own advice.
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It is nice to be able to discuss something and have rules enforcement which requires people to actually try and express a valid critisism than just call me a name and bury my post under spam so nobody reads it. I could care less if people disagree with me or hate me, but it makes me sad for humanity when the internet is teaching people the best way to respond to an idea you do not like is to call them a retard.
My only concern would be that sometimes the rules here seem enforced more strongly then other times, almost as if it depends on the mood of the moderator. During rumor season, the Mill is buzzing and sometimes entire threads get cleaned up from spam, multiple warnings are given out, and dozens of posts deleted. Other times it seems rather lax.
I'm fine with either, but I'd envision it getting confusing to newer members that some threads are allowed to get a bit off-topic, while some are not. Not a complaint, just an observation.
Edit: I meant to quote your post asking for anyones concerns.
Edit2: I used to frequent the Gleemax forums, and I'll be the first to say the moderating there is terrible! They give out occasional condescending warnings "Play nice, kids" but never actually do anything. I stopped going there.
I (bugger, my text is coming out pink becuase cut/pasted something from Sakura :swear:) That's better. Anyway, I agree. I've been using MOTL for a while and I do like that site, but the mods never seem to do anything about flaming, which makes it really hard to discuss a topic. I actually called someone on it in a forum there a few weeks ago. I wouldn't mind being a mod, but it' a drag to do the work of one when I'm not one.
Thanks to the guys at Highlight Studios for the great banner and avatar.
Trade with me http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=101483&highlight=" rel="nofollow"here.
It's all right, I figured that's what you meant.
Moderator actions can be subjective; it's something we continually work on, and actually discuss. Blatant disregard of the rules is something that is easy to judge, but certain things are harder than others. Some mods deal with it differently. I can only speak for myself in that, though.
Sometimes, if you think that a mod has done something you don't agree with, a PM is appropriate. It's a lot better than flaming that mod on his or her helpdesk, or making a "~ Sucks" thread. In your PM, do try and be respectful, even if you're upset. I know I'm more inclined to listen to someone who ISN'T calling me everything but a human being.
I can't comment on the Gleemax forums except as a user; I'm not on staff there.
There's a general rule I follow, and it seems to match the one in Debate fairly well: Attacking an idea is fine if you do it in the right way. Attacking a person is not.
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
Except that:
1) Why should a user listen to what you say?
2) What happens when a user then says "um why should I?"
3) What happens if the user doesn't listen, and repeatedly fails to use card tags? Just report it. That way, a *moderator* has told the user to follow the rules.
4) What happens when newer users start to think that you're the moderator because you're telling him what to do? Now this user is less inclined to pay attention to a real moderator.
If you want to be helpful without being bossy, just include "[card]Card Tags[/card] == [card]Card Tags[/card]" (with a relevant card) in your post.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
The worst case, to me, is when a thread has like 15 posts saying "Move this thread to..". This is something new people fail to see happening (Heck, even i am quilty.) but you know, once you've used the forums for a while, you understand that stuff will be dealt with, it will be moved. Not in a minute, but when a mod notices it, just report it.
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
I am not saying that the Mod's are meaner to the new people. The problem is some of the rules and the 'way things work around here' are not that intuitive.
Lets look at the nuances of 'back seat moding:'
Don't lecture the person about their broken rule, If I say "use card tags [tags]" I think many people would not feel that is 'lecturing,' but I would get a warning. Also its kind of misleading about if that is 'back seat moding,' because many many people on the forums say things like 'oh by the way [tags]' which does NOT get them a warning. There are very subtle things on the forum that first timers would not get the first time.
I feel there are too many rules, or subtly in the rules, that are just 'understood' between people that have been going here every day, or for a long time. Take this warning:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=2755709&postcount=6
Clearly, everyone that has been here KNOWS that that is a warning or an infraction, (but I am guessing the person that did it do not THINK he was using 'derogatory statements'). Also, the fact that each little section of the forums has its own rules and nuances is kinda hard for someone that is so new they do not know how to merge and delete posts on their own posts yet.
Now, all that being said, the mod normally only give out warnings to new timers, and lets face it, warnings are just that, warnings. They do not mean anything, BUT to a new timer, it does not seem that way. Its seems like (if they get one or two very quickly) that we are saying "hey, N00B, get out of here! We do not take kindly to strangers in these parts."
This place is 'strict' because the rules are all enforced to the letter, while on other sites things are more lax.
This is not a critique, just an observation.
It's rather ironic that you used this post as an example, since the poster edited the content of his post after the warning was issued.
Anyway, on topic: you do have a point but in my experience the moderators make a fair attempt to explain the rules and give unofficial warnings to new members before handing out official warnings. It's usually pretty easy to tell the difference between someone who simply isn't aware of the rules and someone who doesn't care to follow them.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
I have often found that in quite a few cases, a friendly PM works like a charm. In cases where that isn't appropriate, then we use the warning/infraction system. Unless it's something that I am fairly sure that the user knows is wrong, I will warn before infracting. A lot of the time, informal warnings are given- modtext without an actual note in the user's record.
We don't want to drive people away- we don't pick on people, we don't go around looking for a reason to give penalties.
In the card-tag situation: the only place where that is 100% relevant is Rulings and perhaps the strategy forums, where deck-tags are used intead. The rule is there because of reasons stated in this thread already, and one of the Rulings mods has shown an acceptable way to inform a person that card-tags are needed when asking a rulings question.
I agree that backseat modding might be a very subjective thing, but it IS why we have the report post button. It might surprise you to learn that even I use it.
Some of our rules are somewhat "unwritten"; such as relaxed spam rules in certain areas, and the special way things are handled in Debate regarding inflammatory statements.
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
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Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
But, again, this differs from mod to mod, and therefor, from section to section. For my first year, the two posts I made outside of the the CCC part got me a warning/infraction.
Well.. more or less.
My advice to them: lurk moar
If you can't handle common sense (and let's face it, the bulk of the individual subforum rules are based on common sense for each area), you should probably just lurk until you can post without making an ass of yourself.
That would be because:
A) newbies tend to have not yet had contact with the rules or just not 'get' them
B) newbies frequently just aren't used to the site and post in a manner they're used to from elsewhere, which can often be a problem
C) older members don't often get warned because they have a greater chance of knowing the rules so therefore they tend not to break them
D) older members who do break the rules tend to earn infractions, either due to many past warnings or a mod's sense that the user ought to know better (a user here for three years who has gone out of his way to attack another member will likely get an infraction from me)
And I'd say the site's better off for it. If a problematic new poster can't shape up, he might as well ship off. And if they're going to have a freakout over a single warning, I question if they have a good enough headspace to be a quality member of the site, anyway.
Believe it or not, a lot of the mods swing on the the lenient side of things here. I try to give the benefit of the doubt as much as possible, but that can only go so far.
Honestly, though, I laugh the concept of Salvation being too strict. We're middle-of-the-road at worst, but definitely more laidback than I'd prefer.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
This statement coming from you is funny. You have the reputation for being the strictest mod, and your anti hand holding opinion in all wakes of life is well known by all. Your not 'user friendly' which is what people look for nowadays.
But lets take a closer look at {mikeyg} post:
Which means "don't post unless you already know this place well." Which is basically what I was saying about this thread being cliquish.
"We do not take kindly to strangers in these parts." that we are saying "hey, N00B, get out of here!"
This is a perfect example of what I was talking about. This thread seems to have a very cliquish anti new person mindset.
I wouldn't say I'm the strictest mod (that honour goes to Annorax in my view, who is badass and suffers no indiscretions), especially given how often I quietly give the benefit of the doubt. I'm simply more vocal and stern when it comes to cut-and-dry rules violations.
You are, however, correct about the rest. I'm not about holding hands and being user friendly. Users shouldn't need to have their hands held, the rules here aren't impossibly complex. And contrary to whatever reputation has been whipped up for me today, I tend on the whole to be rather forgiving if I see a user at least trying to improve. It's the number of posters that don't make the attempt that distress me. Those are also the ones I'm most vocal about.
That's not cliquish, that's just common sense. Flying in ignorant then wondering why you're getting penalties when you break rules you never bothered to familiarize yourself with is just dumb. You don't go to a foreign country and act as you would at home expecting things to run the same. Different places have different standards for behaviour. That's not cliquish.
If you can't grasp the three basics (spamming, flaming and doubleposting/necroing), then yes, you should lurk until you do. Even I lurked in some sections to get a lay of the land first.
No, that's saying "If you can't be bothered to understand and follow the rules, get out", which isn't even a statement directly solely at new posters.
It has nothing to do with being new. Older members are just as capable of posting badly and I'd offer them the same advice. It's just that a great number of new posters are guilty of this since they have little to no experience as to what is acceptable behaviour here. Which is why I'd advise them to gain that experience.
We're not anti-new people. Far from it. I'm personally anti-new crappy poster (and yet also anti-old crappy poster which you conveniently ignored/forgot). I welcome quality posters both new and old, but no, we don't take kindly to crappy posters here. Go figure.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
I do think that the fact that this topic was started by a guy named "budget player cadet" is kind of funny. Since there are two types of magic players.
1)The one that goes to PTQ's and calls the judge over when anything happens. Who knows all the rules and follows them.
2)And the player that says "Hey, man. Its just a game."
I have watched these two kinds of players play. It always comes down to where the game takes place. If its at a PTQ, the player 2 loses or gets kicked out. And if its in a fun game with a group of friends, player 1 gets the boot.
Most of this site is like a PTQ, and sometimes player 2 wanders in.
Too many new users feel that this forum about a game, should be lax.
Humor is in and of itself only a contribution in subforums that aren't serious. Besides, it's funnier to be funny *and* contribute.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
See?
Many thanks to Sgt. Chubbz of Damnation studios.
All of that may well be true in your opinion, but I'd appreciate if you could cool your tone a bit. Thanks.-AoK
Just don't. Report the post, let the mods handle it. If you feel a need to boss someone around, try to think instead of the glee of siccing the mods on the poster. If you're tired of seeing users break a certain rule, feel free to gripe about that when you report the post (and I'm pretty sure the mod will commiserate with you - if something is bad enough for you to notice it, you can be sure the mod's tired of seeing it, too.)
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
Perhaps it would help if you saw the text as it was at the time the infraction was issued:
(Incidentally, this is precisely why editing after a mod edits is against the rules.)
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Isnt it? I never thought funny and comedy would be so hated on.
Good way to start picking fights in a way and/or be blunt and to the point. Not sure where your taking this one.
Cause Its drama. People love drama. People love causing drama. Cause people need drama in there lives to know the exist....
Its even more sad when people DO Contribute and be funny and still get nailed...
in short: Each week the site does get more strict. Not sure if its the trend of BS rising, the trend of most people getting power trips, and/or no one caring anymore. But granted the more popular a site gets the more crap that happens and stress increases both on forums and in mind.
EVERYONE LIGHTEN THE HELL UP! When a site BASED on fun becomes tiring, boring, and TOO serious based on rules the site chokes itself and loses its soul of Fun.
Its sad that I NOW look back onto TFE, KCW, and others and understand why they acted the way they did...
On a personal note, I think that users should be able to say "please use cardtags", notwithstanding the arguments made above. I would advocate the inclusion of the message as being incidental to an otherwise legitimate post in the question; posts solely to point out errors would not be permissible.
Magic Rules Advisor
How Creatures Die
Targets | Triggered Abilities | Priority and the Stack | Older Articles
I see posts occasionally that just reek of lazyness and carelessnes. I'll try to make an example.
Then about 10 minutes later
You want to see what happens to a forum where spam is allowed? Go to the official magic forums.
I personally hate forums like that. Thats why I stick around here.
All it takes is a little effort and common sense. If you walk into a club that has several simple rules posted at the entrance, and you immediately break one of those rules, you will probably get some form of warning. If it keeps up, you will more than likely be shown the door.
You edited my post in a "Speak Your Mind" forum about mods being too strict. Even I didn't think things were that bad. It's time for me to take my own advice.