On the other hand, he might also express contempt for the faux indignation at a member who was banned using provoked hateful and ugly language, when moderators and admins who are still moderators and admins used unprovoked hateful and ugly language in the quotes you were sent and haven't even so much as apologized for their behavior. He might say that a good way to avoid being condemned as an ugly and hateful person is not to behave in an ugly and hateful way.
Oh, and to cut to the chase, the "horrifying, subhuman, blah blah blah" comment is probably a reference to the suggestion that might've been made that AoK would be doing her progeny a favor by killing herself so they didn't have to grow up with an evil hateful ***** as a role model. The appropriateness of this comment in a vacuum is certainly indefensible, but IBA might point out the irony of complaining about this as being sickening while ignoring the thread in which multiple mods gladly traded around their desire for Sakura to die for being an "emo tranny *****".
In other words, IBA probably wouldn't think his banning was unjustified, if half the Gutter, including Annorax, MikeyG and Sapphire Tri, weren't unbanned and even in moderator positions acting like their **** don't stink.
YES he was wrong. But ****, this is the truth.
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Those who are QQ'ing about getting gbanned are just sad that someone cut off an inch off their e-peen and aren't willing to admit it or suffer the consequences of seeming "weak or "inadequate".
and those who are "QQ'ing" about criticism of the gutter are just sad that they need the gutter so they can strut their "e-peen" without fear of retribution. especially since, as you said,
The gutter is the testing grounds, but with the ability to curse, flame and troll.
...although you did leave something out. unlike the testing grounds, the gutter is a private party. oh wait, so it's not at all like the testing grounds. it's a place for immature people with no self-control to go to commiserate with other immature, self-control-less people. sounds pretty sad to me. this is why you will never hear me say, "OMG close teh gutterz now!!!1!" if you need this place, fine. i can say what i want, though, about the fact that you feel you need to have this place.
The reason the gutter remains on this site is because it should not be viewed as an inconvenience to those who are not a part of it and it WOULD be an inconvenience to those who use it and would have to go elsewhere to find it.
so why do you need this forum? IM/PM/chat. save hannes the forum space.
If you have a "thick enough skin" to not feel sorry about yourself for getting Gbanned, you should have a thick enough skin to not cry yourself into oblivion for what someone said in the gutter about you.
and if you had a "thick enough skin," you'd not need the gutter, because nothing you'd complain about there would get to you.
Because it doesn't follow forum rules it must be made private because it does not follow the "not PG-13 or NSFW" guidelines. And because some people would definitely claim for it's closure the second someone posts a thread about them.
again, not just a little unfair that only select users have access to this? and it could be written into the rules that accessing the gutter means you can't ask for closure of a thread, or the forum, just because people talk about you. however, everyone should have an opportunity to defend themselves. but, again, it seems most gutterites can't take the heat, as is evidenced by the high and fiery turnout of gutter-only people every time a thread that dares to even question its existence pops up.
And if you think that people don't fire flak at each other while inside the gutter, you are SORELY mistaken.
oh, i'm sure they do. but you know, if you've got something to say about me, say it to my face... since this is MTGS, you can just PM me. seriously... if you think i'm a pompous ass, please, let ME know. just don't be surprised, or hurt, or start "QQ'ing" when i fire back at you in kind. or, perhaps, you may have been right. i can be an ass sometimes, and i will happily own it when i am. all i'm saying is, if you have a problem with me, or anyone, and can't tell them, straight up, maybe you should STFU and not say it. after all, it IS the internet. This, too, is over the line. Cool it, please.- AoK
I haven't ever said anything about another person like that and I resent the implication that I have. I don't act like "my **** doesn't stink". I'm a person. Just like you. I just happen to have a fancy title by my username and a hell of a lot of responsibility. In any case, this isn't about bannings. This is about the Gutter and why it should or should not exist. There are some good points on BOTH sides here, but it's tending to stray off topic in ways that make the mind say "geeehhhhhhhh".
@ Bitsy: That's perfectly fine. And I definitely agree. This is not Jerry Springer.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
I haven't ever said anything about another person like that and I resent the implication that I have. I don't act like "my **** doesn't stink".
Yes. You do. As do all the rest of the gutter posters who act like it's no big deal. See: the gutter. See also: posts and threads inside the gutter.
Also, I made a point to say I wasn't contesting any bans here. TIBA got what he deserved if he sent PMs like that, no question.
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Added bonus: we're holding a songwriting contest in march with a registry drive going on right now! Check it out, plus the opportunity to earn $50!
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
Cadet, your argument makes no sense.
Direct, constant, unprovoked personal attacks NEVER equal casual insults that the subject of the insult is never intended to hear or read.
They aren't the same thing. At all.
We have to remember that TIBA is banned from the DCI for fighting.
And banned from tons of other message boards.
The mods there and DCI officials must all be in the wrong too, huh?
If we thought our poo didn't stink, we would troll and malign members out in the open to their faces and do whatever we wanted.
Do we do that? No. We don't break rules, we respect other members, while still trying to keep things lighthearted.
What happens in the gutter stays in the gutter, that is the point of the gutter.
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Not really, they have nothing to apologise for. If anything the **** they have to put up with they should be allowed to say more.
I'm bigoted? Yes, maybe a little. But if these conversations don't disturb you, you're way over your head. The mods have everything to apologize for... and Sakura isn't even the half of it. I've never supported transgenderism but such language in the Gutter is uncalled for.
I have never posted in The Gutter, and never will.
And I really cannot understand all of this controversy over it. People making statements like 'Gutter members are secretly carrying out plots to get people banned/suspended/whatever' need to get real. Not only does something like this take considerable effort, but it also only works if the moderators are completely retarded. AND, the person that they're 'persecuting' has to have warnable behavior to begin with. This whole thing is ludicrous.
@sentiment: There is no such thing as 'uncalled for language' in terms of something like The Gutter. It is a closed environment on an internet message board. There is absolutely zero about it that is public. As long as they're not discussing anything illegal, nothing else matters. Clearly you don't like it. But it's just as clear that it is not going to change, because there is no reason for it to do so. There is no injustice here. So either A)shut up and get over it or B)leave.
Not really, they have nothing to apologise for. If anything the **** they have to put up with they should be allowed to say more.
What ever everyone sees them have to deal with times that by 3 and thst the true cvrap they must deal with. Its a miracle that people dont outright start deleting things to kill msot of the crap they have to deal with *like some drama from a few years ago*
Yes. You do. As do all the rest of the gutter posters who act like it's no big deal. See: the gutter. See also: posts and threads inside the gutter.
Also, I made a point to say I wasn't contesting any bans here. TIBA got what he deserved if he sent PMs like that, no question.
THIS is coming from someone that has:
1) Tried not once but TWICE to get inside and be a part of it and failed.
2) Created MANY gimmicks JUST to get inside and be apart of the section and STILL fail.
3) Create a Mimic form of it on your own forum Just to have something like it and AGAIN failed.
YOU SIR are the biggest hypocrit on this issue considering The only real reason your raging at this is cause you are hated in there AND out here for being a fool on many things, acting emo on a few times, and cried to be banned and was unbanned and decide to be a smart ass when you came back. ALL your responces in this thread has been Trolls and attacks and the other thread it was the same crap there.
I'm bigoted? Yes, maybe a little. But if these conversations don't disturb you, you're way over your head. The mods have everything to apologize for... and Sakura isn't even the half of it. I've never supported transgenderism but such language in the Gutter is uncalled for.
Its funny how people on the outside take things seriously when the forum is NOT ment to be taken seriously more so when people are venting.
Private sections of forums are private for a reason as the allow releases on certain rules. its not like people start setting up the second comming of the nazis. *godwins law triggered again*. Its a Place where people post and enjoy... Do me a favor if your so strong about this go onto other private forums and complain about what they can say and cant say. youll be laughed at and possiably trolled to a heavy extent.
I have never posted in The Gutter, and never will.
And I really cannot understand all of this controversy over it. People making statements like 'Gutter members are secretly carrying out plots to get people banned/suspended/whatever' need to get real. Not only does something like this take considerable effort, but it also only works if the moderators are completely retarded. AND, the person that they're 'persecuting' has to have warnable behavior to begin with. This whole thing is ludicrous.
@sentiment: There is no such thing as 'uncalled for language' in terms of something like The Gutter. It is a closed environment on an internet message board. There is absolutely zero about it that is public. As long as they're not discussing anything illegal, nothing else matters. Clearly you don't like it. But it's just as clear that it is not going to change, because there is no reason for it to do so. There is no injustice here. So either A)shut up and get over it or B)leave.
The Only reply that actually got me to stand up and clap and say well done. Your post is a bit over the line. Let's not. -AoK
I don't mind a mod lounge with some profanity but the gutter is too much.
Seeing as you aren't in either of those forums, why would you give a damn?
This entire argument boils down to one thing: MEMBERSHIP IN THE GUTTER IS COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY VOLUNTARY (provided we let you stay, of course). If you have a problem with the Gutter, you're perfectly allowed to ignore its existence and go on with your life. But complaining about something you have no part in because other people have a part in it is both logically invalid and drama-for-drama's-sake.
Seeing that, the thread should probably be locked.
I have never posted in The Gutter, and never will.
And I really cannot understand all of this controversy over it. People making statements like 'Gutter members are secretly carrying out plots to get people banned/suspended/whatever' need to get real. Not only does something like this take considerable effort, but it also only works if the moderators are completely retarded. AND, the person that they're 'persecuting' has to have warnable behavior to begin with. This whole thing is ludicrous.
@sentiment: There is no such thing as 'uncalled for language' in terms of something like The Gutter. It is a closed environment on an internet message board. There is absolutely zero about it that is public. As long as they're not discussing anything illegal, nothing else matters. Clearly you don't like it. But it's just as clear that it is not going to change, because there is no reason for it to do so. There is no injustice here. So either A)shut up and get over it or B)leave.
Thank you, Cyan. This is one of the first actually sensible posts in this thread. Its true, people in the gutter aren't biased against anyone at first, that person has to prove that they simply are stupid enough to not do what they're supposed to, when it really is outlined quite well. They people there, from what I have seen, let pretty much anyone in that doesn't seem like they're going to lead a crusade against the gutter if they get their feelings hurt, because honestly, you're going to get a little bit hurt in the gutter. When you read "The rules that apply on the rest of MTGS do not apply here", you should expect that people are probably going to use that right and say things that they couldn't in the main forums.
[/rant]
Sorry about that, I just saw far too much ridiculousness in this thread to resist.
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More games are decided by tight technical play than all other factors combined.
If you have a problem with the Gutter, you're perfectly allowed to ignore its existence and go on with your life.
yes, but we are also allowed to discuss it and its reason for being, while going on with our lives.
But complaining about something you have no part in because other people have a part in it is both logically invalid and drama-for-drama's-sake.
everything after because in that statement is incorrect. it's not that other people have a part in it; it's that the gutter is a place for users to break the rules, with what seems to be heavy, and unnecessary, restrictions on who can and cannot be members. i know of at least one MTGS member who received an invitation to join the gutter after he received a few infractions. he never asked to be a member, but was offered it. what kind of a club IS this, anyway? really now.
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Now playing Transformers: Legends. 27-time top tier finisher and admin of the TFL Wikia site.
Excuse me for not being a vocal part of the community (trying to change such), but I believe the answer people have been trying to get across is, "One you are not obliged to join." And again, to use your own words, it's a club - private, exclusive, etc.
I just don't understand why this anti-Gutter minority exists. Much like I would be confused as to the existence of an anti-M:tG minority - people actively trying to shut down this forum because they can't be a part of our society because they don't want to play.
everything after because in that statement is incorrect. it's not that other people have a part in it; it's that the gutter is a place for users to break the rules, with what seems to be heavy, and unnecessary, restrictions on who can and cannot be members. i know of at least one MTGS member who received an invitation to join the gutter after he received a few infractions. he never asked to be a member, but was offered it. what kind of a club IS this, anyway? really now.
It's a very inclusive club. Call it a clique. So? That's how high school functions. Why are you complaining about the difference? Unless you feel there's some privilege you lack that you want without the cost of joining the gutter, in which case you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. The moral of the story? See above.
Cyan agreeing with the moderators? Again? We must really be screwing up...
A little reality check here:
The Gutter is not necessary. Those who claim the Gutter serves some vital purpose to the site have a seriously overblown sense of its importance.
However, 1.) so what? There are a lot of sections of the forums that are not necessary to a community of M:tG players - clans, debate, forum games, watercooler/entertainment, colosseum. Clearly, whether or not something is necessary does not determine whether it belongs on our forums.
2.) I can speak for all the moderators when I say we believe in allowing as much freedom as possible for members while still maintaining a positive and healthy community environment. We don't make something against the rules unless there is a really good reason; we don't ban members unless there is a really good reason; etc. Therefore, we aren't going to get rid of the Gutter unless there is a really good reason. So far I have yet to see any compelling argument for removing the Gutter.
And just to give that last statement a bit of context, I've been a moderator for about a year and a half and have pretty much held the same opinion of the Gutter my entire tenure. If you check my profile you will see I am a Gutter member; I recently joined for an administrative reason but have only made a couple posts there, so I can hardly be considered a Gutterite or what have you. Joining changed my opinion slightly in that I now know the Gutter is actually much less to blame for forum drama then I had thought.
but you know, if you've got something to say about me, say it to my face... since this is MTGS, you can just PM me. seriously... if you think i'm a pompous ass, please, let ME know.
You know what? I think this is how most people feel, but personally if someone has a problem with me I'd much rather them trash talk me behind my back. Because chances are I don't give a rat's ass what they think and I'm a happier person for not having to deal with their crap.
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
However, 1.) so what? There are a lot of sections of the forums that are not necessary to a community of M:tG players - clans, debate, forum games, watercooler/entertainment, colosseum. Clearly, whether or not something is necessary does not determine whether it belongs on our forums.
I think it comes down to cost/benefit. Is it really worth the drama it creates?
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
Please, please don't compare anything to the PMs that TIBA sent out. There are very few things that anyone could do with words to be more hateful or bigoted.
What? I read the PMs sent by TIBA. They were harsh, and they were inflammatory, but they were not these masterpieces of blackhearted cruelty they're getting hyped as. He wrote them as an attempt to get himself banned, for one thing. I know TIBA, and it's hard to call him bigoted. In fact, he's one of the few people I've met who, when confronted with the reality that he may be doing or saying something prejudiced, promptly changed his ways.
I also think it's a bit mindblowing that TIBA's comments are being made out as some Dark-Lord-of-Mordor behavior in light of the hateful and disgusting things that have been said and are surely still being said, in the Gutter or Modlounge or otherwise, related to the recent drama. I'm not just talking about Sakura, although that's a pretty good example. It's getting excused as long as it's "venting." Very nice.
Quote from Kijin »
Actually, it does matter how you slice it. The Gutter itself isn't some watershed where we mastermind schemes against other users. Some users do this and use it for that. Which is the problem. Some users.
I'm not talking about whose fault it is. That has nothing to do with it. I said the Gutter is a source of drama. In no way does that necessitate that "Gutter members is making trouble." That's just what you're reading into it.
You're blaming the whole for the fault of the part. The only way to do this is by not actually knowing what happens there. Therefore, it is not beyond >.< for assuming you have no idea what you're talking about, because you blame the actions of the few as the course of the many.
I'm not blaming anything on any group of people, at least some ambiguously defined "Gutter troublemakers." I'm saying that with all the nonsense that goes on here, a good deal of it is centered around the controversy of the Gutter - whether it's about Gutter bannings or paranoia of non-Gutter members or the defensiveness of self-appointed Gutter advocates is irrelevant. It doesn't matter who's stirring up isolated incidents.
If I blame anyone, it's either the community at large or those among the staff who should have been able to deal with it better.
You could just choose to ignore it (not you specifically, I just mean the people that start threads like these who don't know heads from tails) and go on your daily life instead of indulging some masturbatory impulse to stir the pot and put and ear to a cup on the floor in hopes to hear some stirring on the floor below. There are far easier, more recreational and less detrimental methods of feeding a masturbatory impulse and more often than not they won't have a detrimental effect on anyone else in the process.
Yes. Yes, one certainly could. And should. But people don't. I'm not saying that it's necessarily the fault of whatever is under the floor. But when the response to interaction between the two levels is always reduced to "there's nothing under that floor!" then it's a problem.
Another part of it is this: one can't expect what one says in the Gutter to not have consequences. Just because there aren't flaming and trolling rules there doesn't mean that those actions no longer have effects, both on people and social interactions. It's the same way that if you say something scathing and offensive on the telephone and someone overhears you, that's going to lead to something. While you can say whatever you want in your own time to your own friends, you can't just demand that time be rewound and step aside from consequences.
If you wanna be able to say anything you want in the Gutter, and you know at least some people can see you, then own up to it and take care of the debris that you generate. If you wanna jab at someone who annoys you or use as many minority slurs as you like, don't expect the "no flaming rules" thing to protect you if it blows up. Again, to whom it may concern.
Here's the thing that I've been saying but I'll say it again: people who do skirt the rules, take "drama" in the gutter outside of it, and generally do unkind things to the forums are penalized for it. Whether the result of this is a bunch of people talking over AIM, making a thread on 4chan, starting a forum called "forums.lets-make-fun-of-mtgs-members.com," or posting in the gutter is irrelevant because they're separate entities from the MTGS forums but can bring undesirable things to the forums.
I'm aware of that rule. But that's not what I'm talking about. Gutter drama isn't strictly a result of some Gutter member deciding to get trolly on the main site, or info leaks. It's about the tension that exists between the Gutter and the main site. It doesn't matter who causes it.
It really doesn't, though. If I made an internet forum called "The Gutter" where we just talked about what, for example, Mamelon or some other poster on MTGS did, then came on here and made a SYM thread that said, "People with the word Melon in their usernames smell bad lol" you'd still be inciced and eventually you may even trace it back to "forums.thegutter.com." I don't see the difference and, considering you don't use the gutter, neither should you.
That's not the point, though. If you want to get precise, the fact that the Gutter isn't actually off of the site (like, say, a LiveJournal community or other private forum would be), this makes a difference psychologically and sociologically. Even if Gutter members are uniformly good about keeping the line distinct, they aren't in control of it. The line isn't as distinct as it's supposed to be, and it's not the fault of any one group or person.
It isn't. In fact, it's been stated across posts across threads on this very same subject, so I'll just reword it so even the *DRAMABARONS who frequent roundabout discussions like these can "get it": U DO BAD U GET IN TRUBLE, LOL KK, bb? This is true of KCW and FLCL as it is your friend and theinfamousbearassassin. But thanks all the same for 3 extremely wordy, extraneous posts that implore the staff and gutter members to do what already occurs.
Yeah, and it's working out so well for you, isn't it? Because y'all told everybody "don't talk about the Gutter on the main site," that solves it really tidily, doesn't it? Hello. Elephant. Middle of the room.
And please, whine some more about my post length. I'm interested in that from someone who just did a point-by-point on what's basically the idea that I'm being a meanie for calling Gutter members troublemakers and it's all taken care of, tsk tsk. Yeah, too bad it's got zero to do with anything I said. So do call me rambly, I've never heard that one before. Meanwhile. I'm actually being concise compared to these epic, impassioned speeches about how "no one understands!"
Quote from god child »
These two then come outside and start stirring up trouble re: the gutter, and then people like mamelon blame the gutter for these threads.
Hmm.
Quote from Mamelon »
I'm not speaking out against the Gutter.
Quote from Mamelon »
largely unaffected by what the Gutter's intent is, what it's rules are, and whether or not Gutter members are all vicious baddies or sweet angels.
Quote from Mamelon »
I have no problem with the existence of the Gutter.
What a ***** I'm being!
I'm getting tired of this persecution complex. The Gutter is fine if you don't turn away and ignore any problem that bubbles up around it. The problem is actually the poor management of the Gutter's place on the site.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
It may put the offending PMs in perspective when you realize the little known fact that I have met and spoken to TIBA in real life. He's met my family. Hell, he played against me in a tournament while I was feeding a baby on my lap.
Point is, we're straying again.
That post was fairly well-thought out, Mamelon. The problem I am having is the perception of the Gutter as instigators of all that is foul about the site.
I'll admit that the infraction histories of some of the Gutter's users isn't perfect. Lots of peoples' isn't. That is not the issue either.
No, the Gutter isn't absolutely necessary to the site. However, it's no more unneccessary than Clans, Forum Games, Mafia, the Colo... any number of diversions that our members enjoy.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
Joining changed my opinion slightly in that I now know the Gutter is actually much less to blame for forum drama then I had thought.
I do not see the Gutter as being responsible for more drama than other areas of the forum like debate, SYM, or watercooler. I think the Gutter has the appearance of contributing more to forum drama because it often attracts personalities that contribute to drama. Does the Gutter activity encourage those people to troll a little more than they otherwise might have? Probably, but that's nothing that can't be dealt with by addressing that individual's behavior.
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
I think it comes down to cost/benefit. Is it really worth the drama it creates?
I'd have to agree that this is the relevant calculation. As Kraj noted, many forums around here aren't really necessary. That said, they provide for a more diverse and dynamic forum experience that is a net positive for the community. I used to be a member on the official M:tG forums. Then I found this place, was seduced by the Debate forum, and haven't looked back since.
The Gutter is unique among the forums in that it alone is private and clique-ish, rather than open and egalitarian. Wherever some people are allowed to do things that others aren't, and the reason for the granting or withholding of the privilege is blatantly arbitrary, there's going to be some measure of drama. It doesn't matter if the privilege is something as trifling as the ability to post in a forum where nonsense words like "***" and "jigger" are apparently regarded as the height of post-modern comedy. When people's sense of fairness is offended, a sense of proportion is often the first thing to go out the window.
But hey, if the mods feel that the drama is worth it, then that's all that really needs to be said about the Gutter.
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Love. Forgive. Trust. Be willing to be broken that you may be remade.
The same can be said for the other side of the argument.
This round of 'dramas' if you will was wholly initiated by people who do not post in the gutter, trying to start stuff out of nothing. This thread, which got people infracted and some suspended, for example.
Another part of it is this: one can't expect what one says in the Gutter to not have consequences. Just because there aren't flaming and trolling rules there doesn't mean that those actions no longer have effects, both on people and social interactions. It's the same way that if you say something scathing and offensive on the telephone and someone overhears you, that's going to lead to something. While you can say whatever you want in your own time to your own friends, you can't just demand that time be rewound and step aside from consequences.
Point to examples please of things outside the gutter which are inappropriate and are not being handled adequately. If you cannot, you are just poking the drama bear, and this thread holds no real purpose.
If we have people who join the gutter just to troll other members and leak information, those members are the members who are really doing wrong here. Why? Because everything in the gutter is not 100% serious business like it is on here. People post more offensively because they can and are almost encouraged to do so. It doesn't reflect 'true feelings or motives', it is just fun.
Taking things out of the gutter and acting like 'this member said this about this person' is taking things out of context.
Also, it makes you a bad friend if you go telling them 'all the bad things' people are saying about them. I have learned this lesson in the past, heh.
At any rate, it isn't and never will be, and 'us vs them' thing. The gutter is a place where users can do and say what they want. When I first started posting in there I got quite a bit of flack, but then they realized I couldn't be gutterbanned.
Using posts in there to blackmail other members or tar their names is unacceptable, because the gutter has a different tonality. You wear a different hat there when you are in there, and then put on your ruleabiding hat when you leave.
If you don't like the gutter, you don't have to see it. Even (non-admin/tech) staff members don't have to see it if they don't want to. If you don't like what is posted there, you don't have to think about it. If you don't like the sense of humor there, that is fine.
There is nothing malicious or scheming about the gutter.
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@ ursassedatives: I started this thread because stuff about the Gutter kept coming up in other threads. I only started it after AOK gave stated on another thread that it would not be allowed to derail into a Gutter discussion. If we can't talk about it then we're likely to get really paranoid. The thread was started in the spirit of open discussion with the hope of satisfactory resolution.
@ ursassedatives: I started this thread because stuff about the Gutter kept coming up in other threads. I only started it after AOK gave stated on another thread that it would not be allowed to derail into a Gutter discussion. If we can't talk about it then we're likely to get really paranoid. The thread was started in the spirit of open discussion with the hope of satisfactory resolution.
I wasn't commenting on your starting this thread, thats fine, just the 'drama' that is suddenly surrounding the subject of the gutter, wholly manufactured by those that dislike it for one reason or another.
And lo, this thread has bestowed many moderations.
It isn't a case of not being allowed to talk about it, it is a case of people stirring the pot just 'cause. There are trolls on both sides.
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YES he was wrong. But ****, this is the truth.
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This, too, is over the line. Cool it, please.- AoK
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I haven't ever said anything about another person like that and I resent the implication that I have. I don't act like "my **** doesn't stink". I'm a person. Just like you. I just happen to have a fancy title by my username and a hell of a lot of responsibility. In any case, this isn't about bannings. This is about the Gutter and why it should or should not exist. There are some good points on BOTH sides here, but it's tending to stray off topic in ways that make the mind say "geeehhhhhhhh".
@ Bitsy: That's perfectly fine. And I definitely agree. This is not Jerry Springer.
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Yes. You do. As do all the rest of the gutter posters who act like it's no big deal. See: the gutter. See also: posts and threads inside the gutter.
Also, I made a point to say I wasn't contesting any bans here. TIBA got what he deserved if he sent PMs like that, no question.
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Seriously.
Show me where I act like I'm better than other people, outside of Colo characters.
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Direct, constant, unprovoked personal attacks NEVER equal casual insults that the subject of the insult is never intended to hear or read.
They aren't the same thing. At all.
We have to remember that TIBA is banned from the DCI for fighting.
And banned from tons of other message boards.
The mods there and DCI officials must all be in the wrong too, huh?
If we thought our poo didn't stink, we would troll and malign members out in the open to their faces and do whatever we wanted.
Do we do that? No. We don't break rules, we respect other members, while still trying to keep things lighthearted.
What happens in the gutter stays in the gutter, that is the point of the gutter.
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I'm bigoted? Yes, maybe a little. But if these conversations don't disturb you, you're way over your head. The mods have everything to apologize for... and Sakura isn't even the half of it. I've never supported transgenderism but such language in the Gutter is uncalled for.
I have never posted in The Gutter, and never will.
And I really cannot understand all of this controversy over it. People making statements like 'Gutter members are secretly carrying out plots to get people banned/suspended/whatever' need to get real. Not only does something like this take considerable effort, but it also only works if the moderators are completely retarded. AND, the person that they're 'persecuting' has to have warnable behavior to begin with. This whole thing is ludicrous.
@sentiment: There is no such thing as 'uncalled for language' in terms of something like The Gutter. It is a closed environment on an internet message board. There is absolutely zero about it that is public. As long as they're not discussing anything illegal, nothing else matters. Clearly you don't like it. But it's just as clear that it is not going to change, because there is no reason for it to do so. There is no injustice here. So either A)shut up and get over it or B)leave.
NO This is an Opinion. Something Many people have. Such as its my opinion that your more of a trouble maker then needed for the forum entire.
What ever everyone sees them have to deal with times that by 3 and thst the true cvrap they must deal with. Its a miracle that people dont outright start deleting things to kill msot of the crap they have to deal with *like some drama from a few years ago*
THIS is coming from someone that has:
1) Tried not once but TWICE to get inside and be a part of it and failed.
2) Created MANY gimmicks JUST to get inside and be apart of the section and STILL fail.
3) Create a Mimic form of it on your own forum Just to have something like it and AGAIN failed.
YOU SIR are the biggest hypocrit on this issue considering The only real reason your raging at this is cause you are hated in there AND out here for being a fool on many things, acting emo on a few times, and cried to be banned and was unbanned and decide to be a smart ass when you came back. ALL your responces in this thread has been Trolls and attacks and the other thread it was the same crap there.
Its funny how people on the outside take things seriously when the forum is NOT ment to be taken seriously more so when people are venting.
Private sections of forums are private for a reason as the allow releases on certain rules. its not like people start setting up the second comming of the nazis. *godwins law triggered again*. Its a Place where people post and enjoy... Do me a favor if your so strong about this go onto other private forums and complain about what they can say and cant say. youll be laughed at and possiably trolled to a heavy extent.
The Only reply that actually got me to stand up and clap and say well done.
Your post is a bit over the line. Let's not. -AoK
Seeing as you aren't in either of those forums, why would you give a damn?
This entire argument boils down to one thing: MEMBERSHIP IN THE GUTTER IS COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY VOLUNTARY (provided we let you stay, of course). If you have a problem with the Gutter, you're perfectly allowed to ignore its existence and go on with your life. But complaining about something you have no part in because other people have a part in it is both logically invalid and drama-for-drama's-sake.
Seeing that, the thread should probably be locked.
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Thank you, Cyan. This is one of the first actually sensible posts in this thread. Its true, people in the gutter aren't biased against anyone at first, that person has to prove that they simply are stupid enough to not do what they're supposed to, when it really is outlined quite well. They people there, from what I have seen, let pretty much anyone in that doesn't seem like they're going to lead a crusade against the gutter if they get their feelings hurt, because honestly, you're going to get a little bit hurt in the gutter. When you read "The rules that apply on the rest of MTGS do not apply here", you should expect that people are probably going to use that right and say things that they couldn't in the main forums.
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Sorry about that, I just saw far too much ridiculousness in this thread to resist.
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I just don't understand why this anti-Gutter minority exists. Much like I would be confused as to the existence of an anti-M:tG minority - people actively trying to shut down this forum because they can't be a part of our society because they don't want to play.
It's a very inclusive club. Call it a clique. So? That's how high school functions. Why are you complaining about the difference? Unless you feel there's some privilege you lack that you want without the cost of joining the gutter, in which case you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. The moral of the story? See above.
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A little reality check here:
The Gutter is not necessary. Those who claim the Gutter serves some vital purpose to the site have a seriously overblown sense of its importance.
However, 1.) so what? There are a lot of sections of the forums that are not necessary to a community of M:tG players - clans, debate, forum games, watercooler/entertainment, colosseum. Clearly, whether or not something is necessary does not determine whether it belongs on our forums.
2.) I can speak for all the moderators when I say we believe in allowing as much freedom as possible for members while still maintaining a positive and healthy community environment. We don't make something against the rules unless there is a really good reason; we don't ban members unless there is a really good reason; etc. Therefore, we aren't going to get rid of the Gutter unless there is a really good reason. So far I have yet to see any compelling argument for removing the Gutter.
And just to give that last statement a bit of context, I've been a moderator for about a year and a half and have pretty much held the same opinion of the Gutter my entire tenure. If you check my profile you will see I am a Gutter member; I recently joined for an administrative reason but have only made a couple posts there, so I can hardly be considered a Gutterite or what have you. Joining changed my opinion slightly in that I now know the Gutter is actually much less to blame for forum drama then I had thought.
You know what? I think this is how most people feel, but personally if someone has a problem with me I'd much rather them trash talk me behind my back. Because chances are I don't give a rat's ass what they think and I'm a happier person for not having to deal with their crap.
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What? I read the PMs sent by TIBA. They were harsh, and they were inflammatory, but they were not these masterpieces of blackhearted cruelty they're getting hyped as. He wrote them as an attempt to get himself banned, for one thing. I know TIBA, and it's hard to call him bigoted. In fact, he's one of the few people I've met who, when confronted with the reality that he may be doing or saying something prejudiced, promptly changed his ways.
I also think it's a bit mindblowing that TIBA's comments are being made out as some Dark-Lord-of-Mordor behavior in light of the hateful and disgusting things that have been said and are surely still being said, in the Gutter or Modlounge or otherwise, related to the recent drama. I'm not just talking about Sakura, although that's a pretty good example. It's getting excused as long as it's "venting." Very nice.
I'm not talking about whose fault it is. That has nothing to do with it. I said the Gutter is a source of drama. In no way does that necessitate that "Gutter members is making trouble." That's just what you're reading into it.
I'm not blaming anything on any group of people, at least some ambiguously defined "Gutter troublemakers." I'm saying that with all the nonsense that goes on here, a good deal of it is centered around the controversy of the Gutter - whether it's about Gutter bannings or paranoia of non-Gutter members or the defensiveness of self-appointed Gutter advocates is irrelevant. It doesn't matter who's stirring up isolated incidents.
If I blame anyone, it's either the community at large or those among the staff who should have been able to deal with it better. Yes. Yes, one certainly could. And should. But people don't. I'm not saying that it's necessarily the fault of whatever is under the floor. But when the response to interaction between the two levels is always reduced to "there's nothing under that floor!" then it's a problem.
Another part of it is this: one can't expect what one says in the Gutter to not have consequences. Just because there aren't flaming and trolling rules there doesn't mean that those actions no longer have effects, both on people and social interactions. It's the same way that if you say something scathing and offensive on the telephone and someone overhears you, that's going to lead to something. While you can say whatever you want in your own time to your own friends, you can't just demand that time be rewound and step aside from consequences.
If you wanna be able to say anything you want in the Gutter, and you know at least some people can see you, then own up to it and take care of the debris that you generate. If you wanna jab at someone who annoys you or use as many minority slurs as you like, don't expect the "no flaming rules" thing to protect you if it blows up. Again, to whom it may concern.
I'm aware of that rule. But that's not what I'm talking about. Gutter drama isn't strictly a result of some Gutter member deciding to get trolly on the main site, or info leaks. It's about the tension that exists between the Gutter and the main site. It doesn't matter who causes it.
That's not the point, though. If you want to get precise, the fact that the Gutter isn't actually off of the site (like, say, a LiveJournal community or other private forum would be), this makes a difference psychologically and sociologically. Even if Gutter members are uniformly good about keeping the line distinct, they aren't in control of it. The line isn't as distinct as it's supposed to be, and it's not the fault of any one group or person.
Yeah, and it's working out so well for you, isn't it? Because y'all told everybody "don't talk about the Gutter on the main site," that solves it really tidily, doesn't it? Hello. Elephant. Middle of the room.
And please, whine some more about my post length. I'm interested in that from someone who just did a point-by-point on what's basically the idea that I'm being a meanie for calling Gutter members troublemakers and it's all taken care of, tsk tsk. Yeah, too bad it's got zero to do with anything I said. So do call me rambly, I've never heard that one before. Meanwhile. I'm actually being concise compared to these epic, impassioned speeches about how "no one understands!"
Hmm.
What a ***** I'm being!
I'm getting tired of this persecution complex. The Gutter is fine if you don't turn away and ignore any problem that bubbles up around it. The problem is actually the poor management of the Gutter's place on the site.
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Point is, we're straying again.
That post was fairly well-thought out, Mamelon. The problem I am having is the perception of the Gutter as instigators of all that is foul about the site.
I'll admit that the infraction histories of some of the Gutter's users isn't perfect. Lots of peoples' isn't. That is not the issue either.
No, the Gutter isn't absolutely necessary to the site. However, it's no more unneccessary than Clans, Forum Games, Mafia, the Colo... any number of diversions that our members enjoy.
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See a later portion of my post:
I do not see the Gutter as being responsible for more drama than other areas of the forum like debate, SYM, or watercooler. I think the Gutter has the appearance of contributing more to forum drama because it often attracts personalities that contribute to drama. Does the Gutter activity encourage those people to troll a little more than they otherwise might have? Probably, but that's nothing that can't be dealt with by addressing that individual's behavior.
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I'd have to agree that this is the relevant calculation. As Kraj noted, many forums around here aren't really necessary. That said, they provide for a more diverse and dynamic forum experience that is a net positive for the community. I used to be a member on the official M:tG forums. Then I found this place, was seduced by the Debate forum, and haven't looked back since.
The Gutter is unique among the forums in that it alone is private and clique-ish, rather than open and egalitarian. Wherever some people are allowed to do things that others aren't, and the reason for the granting or withholding of the privilege is blatantly arbitrary, there's going to be some measure of drama. It doesn't matter if the privilege is something as trifling as the ability to post in a forum where nonsense words like "***" and "jigger" are apparently regarded as the height of post-modern comedy. When people's sense of fairness is offended, a sense of proportion is often the first thing to go out the window.
But hey, if the mods feel that the drama is worth it, then that's all that really needs to be said about the Gutter.
The same can be said for the other side of the argument.
This round of 'dramas' if you will was wholly initiated by people who do not post in the gutter, trying to start stuff out of nothing. This thread, which got people infracted and some suspended, for example.
Point to examples please of things outside the gutter which are inappropriate and are not being handled adequately. If you cannot, you are just poking the drama bear, and this thread holds no real purpose.
If we have people who join the gutter just to troll other members and leak information, those members are the members who are really doing wrong here. Why? Because everything in the gutter is not 100% serious business like it is on here. People post more offensively because they can and are almost encouraged to do so. It doesn't reflect 'true feelings or motives', it is just fun.
Taking things out of the gutter and acting like 'this member said this about this person' is taking things out of context.
Also, it makes you a bad friend if you go telling them 'all the bad things' people are saying about them. I have learned this lesson in the past, heh.
At any rate, it isn't and never will be, and 'us vs them' thing. The gutter is a place where users can do and say what they want. When I first started posting in there I got quite a bit of flack, but then they realized I couldn't be gutterbanned.
Using posts in there to blackmail other members or tar their names is unacceptable, because the gutter has a different tonality. You wear a different hat there when you are in there, and then put on your ruleabiding hat when you leave.
If you don't like the gutter, you don't have to see it. Even (non-admin/tech) staff members don't have to see it if they don't want to. If you don't like what is posted there, you don't have to think about it. If you don't like the sense of humor there, that is fine.
There is nothing malicious or scheming about the gutter.
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I wasn't commenting on your starting this thread, thats fine, just the 'drama' that is suddenly surrounding the subject of the gutter, wholly manufactured by those that dislike it for one reason or another.
And lo, this thread has bestowed many moderations.
It isn't a case of not being allowed to talk about it, it is a case of people stirring the pot just 'cause. There are trolls on both sides.
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