The problem isn't only that the gutter is leaking onto the main forums. I disagree with the content in the gutter by itself in its entirety. Some of the most hateful bigotry has come out of there and there is absolutely no way that TIBA could top it even with his flame PMs to the mods.
Also, "The Gutter doesn't exist" line worked for 3 years because, until then, the Gutter had still recently been a part of the humor subforum. Then, it was modded and NOT exclusive. 3 years and the Gutter has deteriorated into something completely different. 3 years and new members have come and see they have been excluded. This is why the Gutter has become what it has become and why we speak out against it.
You are completely and utterly wrong; firstly the gutter isn't leaking onto the main forums with the sole exception of this thread.
Also, you may want to bone up on your gutter history. The gutter has been disassociated from the humour forum, even if not physically, almost since its inception, and the exclusivity you deride has been a part of it as of the beginning of kcw's modding - about 2 years ago. Nothing in the gutter changed in the lead-up to Sakura's banning except that I gutterbanned these two new people who didn't fit in: budgetplayercadet and soronthebeast.
So yeah you are basically making stuff up about how the gutter has changed, but nice try.
now if you have an actual moral objection to the gutter on the grounds that you think venting steam isn't acceptable, then by all means I guess I can't really refute that. you are entitled to your moral belief.
The problem isn't only that the gutter is leaking onto the main forums. I disagree with the content in the gutter by itself in its entirety.
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but have you actually been in the Gutter lately or ever? If not, in what capacity do you feel qualified to speak of its content, especially in its entirety?
Some of the most hateful bigotry has come out of there and there is absolutely no way that TIBA could top it even with his flame PMs to the mods.
Please, please don't compare anything to the PMs that TIBA sent out. There are very few things that anyone could do with words to be more hateful or bigoted.
I have yet to see a logical defense in favor of The Gutter. On the one hand the pro-Gutterites are saying, "We need a place to vent our frustrations about other users." And then they tell Soron & Co., "This is just anonymous people online, not real life; you shouldn't let it bother you." But if the second statement is true, it nullifies the first. If what people say on anonymous forums shouldn't bother us, then why should anyone need a place to vent about other users of anonymous forums?
Maybe I'm mellower than most; but the only posters on these boards who bothered me to the point that I'd even want to vent about them have all committed forum suicide by infraction anyways. Which is exactly the point of The Rules, and of their rigorous enforcement: to create a hospitable and pleasant environment for all around here.
If you happen to like The Gutter, then fine. But don't try to pretend that it serves an even halfway noble purpose. Because it doesn't.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Love. Forgive. Trust. Be willing to be broken that you may be remade.
I have yet to see a logical defense in favor of The Gutter. On the one hand the pro-Gutterites are saying, "We need a place to vent our frustrations about other users." And then they tell Soron & Co., "This is just anonymous people online, not real life; you shouldn't let it bother you." But if the second statement is true, it nullifies the first. If what people say on anonymous forums shouldn't bother us, then why should anyone need a place to vent about other users of anonymous forums?
Maybe I'm mellower than most; but the only posters on these boards who bothered me to the point that I'd even want to vent about them have all committed forum suicide by infraction anyways. Which is exactly the point of The Rules, and of their rigorous enforcement: to create a hospitable and pleasant environment for all around here.
If you happen to like The Gutter, then fine. But don't try to pretend that it serves an even halfway noble purpose. Because it doesn't.
That's a great strawman you've set-up there: "This is just anonymous people online, not real life; you shouldn't let it bother you." This isn't the argument we are using at all. Unfortunately for you and fortunately for me the majority of mtgs users aren't stupid enough to fall for such a blatant strawman.
That's a great strawman you've set-up there: "This is just anonymous people online, not real life; you shouldn't let it bother you." This isn't the argument we are using at all. Unfortunately for you and fortunately for me the majority of mtgs users aren't stupid enough to fall for such a blatant strawman.
Oh? You (plural) are not using that argument at all? Check the first page of this thread.
Quote from Kijin »
It actually isn't hard to worry about if you just ignore the PM or realize you have better things to do with your time than be concerned with what a group of anonymous people on the internet think about you and the way you present yourself on a Magical Card Game Forum.
Quote from Howler13 »
And people, remember, this isn't your work, or your circle of friends; it's an internet forum about a card game. You popularity and reputation here have absolutely no bearing on real life. So what if a small group of people on the internet don't like you?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Love. Forgive. Trust. Be willing to be broken that you may be remade.
That's a great strawman you've set-up there: "This is just anonymous people online, not real life; you shouldn't let it bother you." This isn't the argument we are using at all. Unfortunately for you and fortunately for me the majority of mtgs users aren't stupid enough to fall for such a blatant strawman.
The majority of gutterites who've posted here have implied that the gutter is a necessary evil because people need a place to vent about the forum. I'm not sure people really need a place to vent about MTGS and its people on MTGS. It would be just as easy to start your own forum, use PM's, or use chat or IM's. I could be misinterpreting things. Why do you think the gutter is good for MTGS? How has it positively affected the MTGS community?
While I havent posted here regarding my dislike about the Gutter, I did post back in AoK's and YuanTi's Helpdesks when the issue came out.
Sadly this is a topic where the loudest will be heard, and where the calm thoughts will just be lost and hand waived away. If anyone wishes to see my stance you are free to dig the posts from the help desks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from »
Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
I didn't read that thread. By the time I saw it it was already several pages long and I didn't feel like reading it.
I did. Let me try this "sound bite" bit:
"Compare this to most of the other forums, and the number is actually quite low."
"The difference with the gutter is that the average user doesn't receive a visible positive benefit from it. So the only apparent affect it has on them is negative."
"discovered at all if it wasn't for a few of us in the gutter actively looking into all of his/her posts trying to show that s/he was lying."
"In short, the gutter has a place in our forums."
"Those trolls have never been warned"
"us encouraging bad behavior within the normal forum"
"All the random spamish topics, all the venting, all the trolling that user X could have done in there now has no home."
See, I can quote things out of context too. "It's a step towards destroying the gutter,"
So this keeps coming up and derailing other threads, so I figured I'd make a thread about it for people to discuss. Thoughts on the Gutter seem to roughly fall into two groups.
1: The Gutter is a place for users to vent their frustrations without the fear of being infracted and is therefore a useful feature of MTGS.
2: The Gutter is a place where trouble gets brewed up and spills out onto the rest of the forums.
What do you all think?
What's the gutter?:confused:
This gutter thing sounds kind of cool. At least I think so, I mean. It sounds like a good idea.
Maybe you'll get Archenemy cards in your Duel Decks From The Vault: Deck Builder's Toolkit All-Foil Duels of the Planeswalkers Downloadable Content Expansion (Tactics Edition).
Umm. No. What I did after that was get my Gimmicks in. Lurked for about a month or two. Then, I logged on with all my gimmicks on the same computer (something I did not do until basically just then. Check the logs my gimmick did not have my IP for over a year, until I got onto the Gutter) so that the mod's could find me and Gban me, because I had enough. Started having my gimmicks post reasons for why the Gutter should not exists. Then I told everyone I had Gimmicks all over the Gutter, and was Gbanned. Though, I had to work TWO DAYS to get my gimmicks banned..... Its hard to get Gbanned when you WANT to be.
So, what you're saying is that you apparently spent a year + using gimmick accounts to access the Gutter, and then basically acted in such a manner for the mods to Gutterban you.
I know selecting the "Leave Group" option is really difficult, but why didn't you just, you know, do that?
I have a question. If the Gutter serves the vital purpose of giving people a place to vent their frustrations about the forums and is therefore necessary to preserve the integrity of the forums, then why is access restricted?
I can't remember where, but someone mentioned (in one of the recent drama threads or perhaps on Sakura's forum) that gutterites sometimes decide to go and pick on other members, which a gutter mod acknowledged. Is or should this not be infractable behavior? Do the mods keep a close eye on those who claim they're going to do it?
If the gutter is exempt from nearly all MTGS rules, then everything should stay in it. The very declaration of a plot to directly affect the main forum is therefore violating one of the few rules that still stands in the subforum, namely that everything should stay in it, no?
Whoever said that about the gutter is ill-informed. Whilst a majority of gutter members have all disliked one individual, the last time there was any kind of effort made outside of the gutter to annoy that person was in the case of TFE.
I have a question. If the Gutter serves the vital purpose of giving people a place to vent their frustrations about the forums and is therefore necessary to preserve the integrity of the forums, then why is access restricted?
So that the very people that cause frustration don't cause more frustration where people are trying to vent.
So that the very people that cause frustration don't cause more frustration where people are trying to vent.
That makes no sense. Why do only some people have the right to access the gutter and vent and other are denied access and are left to bottle their emotions and probably flame the frustrating people you keep talking about? Everyone gets frustrated and angry and everyone needs to vent once in a while. Why can't "ordinary" users have access to such a stress relieving resouce?
People like Kijin and MikeyG vent their frustrations in the gutter - people like bpc and soronthebeast vent their frustrations with threads like these - and the gutter is a bad influence on the forum?
Please stop thinking this is a personal crusade of sorts because I got gb&.
So you advocate removing the gutter just so that users have no way of finding out exactly what is said behind their backs?
the problem here isn't the gutter, though, its the small handful of users who are spreading a negative image about the gutter. The "gutter doesn't exist" line worked perfectly for 3 years until budgetplayercadet and soronthebeast started their personal crusade.
You are completely and utterly wrong; firstly the gutter isn't leaking onto the main forums with the sole exception of this thread.
Also, you may want to bone up on your gutter history. The gutter has been disassociated from the humour forum, even if not physically, almost since its inception, and the exclusivity you deride has been a part of it as of the beginning of kcw's modding - about 2 years ago. Nothing in the gutter changed in the lead-up to Sakura's banning except that I gutterbanned these two new people who didn't fit in: budgetplayercadet and soronthebeast.
Please, please don't compare anything to the PMs that TIBA sent out. There are very few things that anyone could do with words to be more hateful or bigoted.
On the other hand, he might also express contempt for the faux indignation at a member who was banned using provoked hateful and ugly language, when moderators and admins who are still moderators and admins used unprovoked hateful and ugly language in the quotes you were sent and haven't even so much as apologized for their behavior. He might say that a good way to avoid being condemned as an ugly and hateful person is not to behave in an ugly and hateful way.
Oh, and to cut to the chase, the "horrifying, subhuman, blah blah blah" comment is probably a reference to the suggestion that might've been made that AoK would be doing her progeny a favor by killing herself so they didn't have to grow up with an evil hateful ***** as a role model. The appropriateness of this comment in a vacuum is certainly indefensible, but IBA might point out the irony of complaining about this as being sickening while ignoring the thread in which multiple mods gladly traded around their desire for Sakura to die for being an "emo tranny *****".
In other words, IBA probably wouldn't think his banning was unjustified, if half the Gutter, including Annorax, MikeyG and Sapphire Tri, weren't unbanned and even in moderator positions acting like their **** don't stink.
Not to say that I automatically support this (I still wanna SEE the goddamn thing), but these quotes seemed very appropriate.
@GC: Posts in this thread by you saying it's my/soron's fault: 5 And you think I'm on a campaign? You're using that as your little black dress. Please stop.
@N_S: I'm not gonna debate that, you are a very good poster.
While I havent posted here regarding my dislike about the Gutter, I did post back in AoK's and YuanTi's Helpdesks when the issue came out.
Sadly this is a topic where the loudest will be heard, and where the calm thoughts will just be lost and hand waived away. If anyone wishes to see my stance you are free to dig the posts from the help desks.
Sep, I need to say this: this post is the best one in the thread.
Hey kids! Don't like rules? Tired of having your lulz censored by terrible, terrible people called "moderators"? Big fan of metal? Check out Metaln☺☺☺☺! This is probably the worst possible forum to advertise it on!
Added bonus: we're holding a songwriting contest in march with a registry drive going on right now! Check it out, plus the opportunity to earn $50!
I can't remember where, but someone mentioned (in one of the recent drama threads or perhaps on Sakura's forum) that gutterites sometimes decide to go and pick on other members, which a gutter mod acknowledged. Is or should this not be infractable behavior? Do the mods keep a close eye on those who claim they're going to do it?
Yes, we do in fact infract for it. We always have, cnsidering trolling has been against Savation's rules since its inception. Gutter members do not have any special immunity when they troll.
I'll even go one step further and tell you that it is a Gutter mandate that any gutter member using the Gutter to plot to break the rules in the forums proper or otherwise take gutter-behavior outside the Gutter will be gutterbanned and in all likelihood infracted. At all times the staff (both in and out of the Gutter) have tried to keep the Gutter in the Gutter where it belongs. We have, at times, failed. But in those cases, the individuals in question were suitably punished.
So that the very people that cause frustration don't cause more frustration where people are trying to vent.
And in all likelihood, those "very people that cause frustration" are feeling frustrated themselves. Sooo... why should the privilege of uninhibited, vulgar, profane emotional release be assigned arbitrarily by comittee?
EDIT: S'nathed by Bitsy. b/c this thread is a HOT POTATO!!!
EDIT DEUCE:
Quote from Wessel »
If we could have a forum (that is invisible to the people who don't want to have anything to do with it) where people that need a place like the Gutter can 'vent their fustrations' as much as they want, so that they remain on this forum if only because others can enjoy their good sides too, I have no problem with that (anymore).
The forum would be much less fun if everyone who now posts in the Gutter would bring it all to the main forum and are getting banned because of it.
You know, there's this thing called "self-control." People are even capable of exercising it on the internet, or so I've heard.
That makes no sense. Why do only some people have the right to access the gutter and vent and other are denied access and are left to bottle their emotions and probably flame the frustrating people you keep talking about? Everyone gets frustrated and angry and everyone needs to vent once in a while. Why can't "ordinary" users have access to such a stress relieving resouce?
This seems like an excellent point. I hope someone does end up addressing it. Too often in threads like this the good points are swept under by the torrent of post.
GC everyone causes frustration, even Gutter members. I am sure you find that hard to believe, but its true.
I find the overall down hill spiral of the average post on this thread very interesting. Re-reading my own, they are also going down hill. Well, not GC's. His have increased in quality over the course of the thread. I think he might be a master.
The kind of people who cause frustration aren't the kind of people who need to vent their frustrations.
That has be the most illogical genralization I have ever heard. I'm not inherently opposed to the Gutter, but that's not even and argument. It's barely a coherent thought.
You are completely and utterly wrong; firstly the gutter isn't leaking onto the main forums with the sole exception of this thread.
Also, you may want to bone up on your gutter history. The gutter has been disassociated from the humour forum, even if not physically, almost since its inception, and the exclusivity you deride has been a part of it as of the beginning of kcw's modding - about 2 years ago. Nothing in the gutter changed in the lead-up to Sakura's banning except that I gutterbanned these two new people who didn't fit in: budgetplayercadet and soronthebeast.
So yeah you are basically making stuff up about how the gutter has changed, but nice try.
now if you have an actual moral objection to the gutter on the grounds that you think venting steam isn't acceptable, then by all means I guess I can't really refute that. you are entitled to your moral belief.
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but have you actually been in the Gutter lately or ever? If not, in what capacity do you feel qualified to speak of its content, especially in its entirety?
In that you are immensely, regrettably wrong.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
My helpdesk should you need me.
I have yet to see a logical defense in favor of The Gutter. On the one hand the pro-Gutterites are saying, "We need a place to vent our frustrations about other users." And then they tell Soron & Co., "This is just anonymous people online, not real life; you shouldn't let it bother you." But if the second statement is true, it nullifies the first. If what people say on anonymous forums shouldn't bother us, then why should anyone need a place to vent about other users of anonymous forums?
Maybe I'm mellower than most; but the only posters on these boards who bothered me to the point that I'd even want to vent about them have all committed forum suicide by infraction anyways. Which is exactly the point of The Rules, and of their rigorous enforcement: to create a hospitable and pleasant environment for all around here.
If you happen to like The Gutter, then fine. But don't try to pretend that it serves an even halfway noble purpose. Because it doesn't.
That's a great strawman you've set-up there: "This is just anonymous people online, not real life; you shouldn't let it bother you." This isn't the argument we are using at all. Unfortunately for you and fortunately for me the majority of mtgs users aren't stupid enough to fall for such a blatant strawman.
Oh? You (plural) are not using that argument at all? Check the first page of this thread.
The majority of gutterites who've posted here have implied that the gutter is a necessary evil because people need a place to vent about the forum. I'm not sure people really need a place to vent about MTGS and its people on MTGS. It would be just as easy to start your own forum, use PM's, or use chat or IM's. I could be misinterpreting things. Why do you think the gutter is good for MTGS? How has it positively affected the MTGS community?
They were responding to a completely different argument on the part of the anti-gutter faction.
Sadly this is a topic where the loudest will be heard, and where the calm thoughts will just be lost and hand waived away. If anyone wishes to see my stance you are free to dig the posts from the help desks.
I didn't read that thread. By the time I saw it it was already several pages long and I didn't feel like reading it.
"Compare this to most of the other forums, and the number is actually quite low."
"The difference with the gutter is that the average user doesn't receive a visible positive benefit from it. So the only apparent affect it has on them is negative."
"discovered at all if it wasn't for a few of us in the gutter actively looking into all of his/her posts trying to show that s/he was lying."
"In short, the gutter has a place in our forums."
"Those trolls have never been warned"
"us encouraging bad behavior within the normal forum"
"All the random spamish topics, all the venting, all the trolling that user X could have done in there now has no home."
See, I can quote things out of context too. "It's a step towards destroying the gutter,"
What's the gutter?:confused:
This gutter thing sounds kind of cool. At least I think so, I mean. It sounds like a good idea.
So, what you're saying is that you apparently spent a year + using gimmick accounts to access the Gutter, and then basically acted in such a manner for the mods to Gutterban you.
I know selecting the "Leave Group" option is really difficult, but why didn't you just, you know, do that?
Actually, scratch that. I know why.
Cheers.
I think Soron was commenting on your random, out of context quote. He posted a bunch of random quotes to illustrate the obsurdity of your post.
And was addressed in my post, immediately afterwards.
Thanks to the guys at Highlight Studios for the great banner and avatar.
Trade with me http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=101483&highlight=" rel="nofollow"here.
Whoever said that about the gutter is ill-informed. Whilst a majority of gutter members have all disliked one individual, the last time there was any kind of effort made outside of the gutter to annoy that person was in the case of TFE.
So that the very people that cause frustration don't cause more frustration where people are trying to vent.
That makes no sense. Why do only some people have the right to access the gutter and vent and other are denied access and are left to bottle their emotions and probably flame the frustrating people you keep talking about? Everyone gets frustrated and angry and everyone needs to vent once in a while. Why can't "ordinary" users have access to such a stress relieving resouce?
Please stop thinking this is a personal crusade of sorts because I got gb&.
It isn't about getting gb&. Also, yeah, this thread is a mess. It's a quandry-if it gets locked, it'll either spread into other threads
There we go again.
And again.
Not to say that I automatically support this (I still wanna SEE the goddamn thing), but these quotes seemed very appropriate.
@GC: Posts in this thread by you saying it's my/soron's fault: 5 And you think I'm on a campaign? You're using that as your little black dress. Please stop.
@N_S: I'm not gonna debate that, you are a very good poster.
Sep, I need to say this: this post is the best one in the thread.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=3154881&highlight=#post3154881
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=3156675&postcount=28
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=3156735&postcount=31
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=3156805&postcount=34
Wasn't much digging.
Added bonus: we're holding a songwriting contest in march with a registry drive going on right now! Check it out, plus the opportunity to earn $50!
Yes, we do in fact infract for it. We always have, cnsidering trolling has been against Savation's rules since its inception. Gutter members do not have any special immunity when they troll.
I'll even go one step further and tell you that it is a Gutter mandate that any gutter member using the Gutter to plot to break the rules in the forums proper or otherwise take gutter-behavior outside the Gutter will be gutterbanned and in all likelihood infracted. At all times the staff (both in and out of the Gutter) have tried to keep the Gutter in the Gutter where it belongs. We have, at times, failed. But in those cases, the individuals in question were suitably punished.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
And in all likelihood, those "very people that cause frustration" are feeling frustrated themselves. Sooo... why should the privilege of uninhibited, vulgar, profane emotional release be assigned arbitrarily by comittee?
EDIT: S'nathed by Bitsy. b/c this thread is a HOT POTATO!!!
EDIT DEUCE:
You know, there's this thing called "self-control." People are even capable of exercising it on the internet, or so I've heard.
Edit: When did Sarnath'd become S'nathed?
GC everyone causes frustration, even Gutter members. I am sure you find that hard to believe, but its true.
I find the overall down hill spiral of the average post on this thread very interesting. Re-reading my own, they are also going down hill. Well, not GC's. His have increased in quality over the course of the thread. I think he might be a master.
Thanks to the guys at Highlight Studios for the great banner and avatar.
Trade with me http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=101483&highlight=" rel="nofollow"here.