I love reading random posts especially the ones about bad traders since i love seeing how events happen and unfold. I had a little time thinking about the current rules on trading and spotted some faults to them. Im sure I'm not the only one, probably not the first to point it out either.
here are two problems:
first is as long as one doenst uses Dc, the other can just say he never recieved and thus might be getting free cards since rule is it is sender's responsibility to replace the cards
the second fault is "Dc is savior" idea because Dc dont actually prove a thing. A player can techincally send a mail with nothing in it but blank paper or anything but send it with Dc.
those are 2 faults I spotted with the current ruling system of trade, even though most traders are truthful and responisble. Isn't this worth watching out for? Or is this just a common risk for trading online
first is as long as one doenst uses Dc, the other can just say he never recieved and thus might be getting free cards since rule is it is sender's responsibility to replace the cards
Most people here are honest enough not to do that. I've never met someone here who traded with me to do this.
the second fault is "Dc is savior" idea because Dc dont actually prove a thing. A player can techincally send a mail with nothing in it but blank paper or anything but send it with Dc.
An example of a case like this is Lance's case, he was a mod and sent an empty envelope. Was caught and banned. An empty envelope would show the weight to be lower than with cards, it would be easy to tell.
I love reading random posts especially the ones about bad traders since i love seeing how events happen and unfold. I had a little time thinking about the current rules on trading and spotted some faults to them. Im sure I'm not the only one, probably not the first to point it out either.
here are two problems:
first is as long as one doenst uses Dc, the other can just say he never recieved and thus might be getting free cards since rule is it is sender's responsibility to replace the cards
the second fault is "Dc is savior" idea because Dc dont actually prove a thing. A player can techincally send a mail with nothing in it but blank paper or anything but send it with Dc.
those are 2 faults I spotted with the current ruling system of trade, even though most traders are truthful and responisble. Isn't this worth watching out for? Or is this just a common risk for trading online
I agree they are flaws. It's just a matter of trust. If somebody wants to rip you, they will.
An example of a case like this is Lance's case, he was a mod and sent an empty envelope. Was caught and banned. An empty envelope would show the weight to be lower than with cards, it would be easy to tell.
Let's say I was supposed to send you two FOIL Shocklands. Instead I send you two FOIL Ravnica Forests (which would have identical weight to the shocklands) via Registered Mail. What do you do? Prove that I ripped you.
the simple answer to both of those is yes these are flaws... IF you trade online you WILL get ripped unless you are lucky. Its a fact. DONT make trades that you cant handle losing even with higher up members(think about Lord moo/adridodr amongst many others ect.). The point is this is the safest we as traders can possibly make the system at this time. Also i promise a trader wouldnt get away with the 2x forest thing more than once before other traders started noticing a trend.
adridodr IMO was a time bomb ready to explode at any time, given his terrible trading ethics. For point 2 it does prove a problem. If you have problem with that, trades with more established traders would be fine. Those 2 traders above are not established, adridodr has 100+ refs but look how many BTA cases he got.
I would have to say that the best things you can do are:
1. Rely on reference numbers
2. Check references
3. Keep the value of the trade down if you're uneasy, or require that they send first.
In my 4 or 5 years of online trading, I've been ripped 3 times (one way or another) for about $25 or so total. It's gonna happen from time to time, but the Internet is just too good of a way to trade to pass up. Good luck.
In my 4 or 5 years of online trading, I've been ripped 3 times (one way or another) for about $25 or so total. It's gonna happen from time to time, but the Internet is just too good of a way to trade to pass up. Good luck.
QFT; I look at getting ripped as part of the price of trading online. (It's still a better deal than IRL, overall, in most circumstances.)
You can reduce your risk by doing what others have said; stick to small trades at first, switching to bigger trades only when your refs are high enough for others to send first. Third-party trades are also an option (though obviously you then risk the third party's honesty.)
The thing with Adrian was that he worked a full time job + extra hours and he was running a full time trading program. As far as I know, he was on 3-4 sites making trades, and sales. He probably had more than 30 trades going on at a time.
I try to keep it down to 2-3 at a time, and with my refs, I usually have people send first.
For someone with low trade refs, try to deal with high ref traders and mods to build up your refs to be able to not trade with anyone unless they send first.
The only way I send first now is If i'm paying through paypal, and that is trackable, and I can force a refund if the cards never show up.
This happened with Sephiroth Owa. He is from the UK, he sent, he had proof that he sent, but I never recieved. I was about to file a claim with paypal, when he found out through the UK postal system that the mail was never delivered. He got his money back and so did I.
The thing with Adrian was that he worked a full time job + extra hours and he was running a full time trading program. As far as I know, he was on 3-4 sites making trades, and sales. He probably had more than 30 trades going on at a time.
This is no excuse not to send your side out asap. if you can't handle too many trades, don't do it, its simple enough. His attitude towards fellow traders and the mods ain't great either.
3rd parties are trustable actually, if not they won't be approved to be doing 3rd parties. As what the others said, check the BTA, check the other trader refs before trading. High refs does'nt mean a good trader. That certain trader could be constantly checking in and out of the BTA threads and if you never have checked, you might have made yourself vunerable to getting ripped. Start small trades at first to build your refs, when its high enough, you could get others to simul or send first. Once you get the hang of trading, you can also make big trades as well, but be sure to take more precaution when making big trades. A mod as a 3rd party would be the best.
Also if someone has been BTA'ed for slow sending, slow payment, I suggest the rest not to trade with these people. if it happens once, it will happen again. Well thats my take on it.
PS: I've been ripped a lot, and thats on ebay, around year 1999 or so. So all I can say is, be very careful. The internet is a great mask for a ripper to hide under.
Start up a list here, I bet I'll even post in it! I want to agree with Magik though, having other commitments does not mean that you can have a bad attitude and delay shipping for MONTHS. There are a bunch of us who have a lot of trades going on who keep up with them. It is good to stick to smaller trades at first since you will always be sending first, then branch out more and go bigger. I still prefer doing all $100+ trades through a third party. I have only been ripped once in about 18 months, and even then, he was supposed to send first so I lost nothing except a dip in the value of the cards I had traded.
I bought some cards awhile back on this sight and thought for sure I was going to be ripped-off and waited for my cards to be sent and the waited some more because I had 0 ref’s and I did eventually get my cards the mail was just slow the important things to remember is that the mods are great about getting ripper’s removed from tradeing on this site, and that just like in real life you should never make a deal you can’t afford to lose out on online no matter how many ref’s a trader has. And as someone else has already said if you are paying for cards pay-pal is your best friend.
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Scott Adams... Nothing defines humans better than their willingness to do irrational things in the pursuit of phenomenally unlikely payoffs. This is the principle behind lotteries, dating, and religion
I've had people rip me because I didn't use DC before here, it's unfortunate but it does happen. Always protect yourself, that's the key to online trading. Make no assumptions and make no excuses and you will be fine.
Do note that we talk about those who seem to never receive from people who don't use DC and we have banned a few in the past - and possibly some more in the near future.
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This member has been found guilty of ripping a number of users on MTGSalvation. As a result he has been banned on this site and all his positive feedback has been removed. The MTGSalvation Staff wants to strongly encourage you NOT to trade with this member ever again in whatever situation might come up.
Spread the word.
Going to www.magictraders.com is probably a great place to start as there are a ton of trustworthy and ref hefty people over there. This site isn't so bad either though.
Going to www.magictraders.com is probably a great place to start as there are a ton of trustworthy and ref hefty people over there. This site isn't so bad either though.
MOTL!?!?!?!?!
Blasphemy!!!
Anyway everything that people have said so far is correct. There is certainly an increased chance of getting ripped with online trading, but there is much that you can do to make it safer, and Delivery Confirmation is one of those tools. Sure its not infallable, but it is an infinatey better alternative to blindly sending and praying it:
A) Arrives
and
B) The person you trade with is honest enough to admit they recieved
Lance, as an example, is proof that Delivery Confirmation and receipts can be some fairly damning evidence, and can save your skin.
In my 80+ trades on this site, I have never been ripped. I have had people agree to trades, but never send out, but since they were sending first, I suffered no loss.
In all Online Trading is just too god to pass up.
(As Yare said, magictraders.com is a great site, even though I will stick with good 'ol MTGS)
Please, accept that Magic costs money to play, and drop it. A playset of Baneslayers>playset of duals. New Jace>Force of Will. Etc... Not to mention, Legacy is so wide open, that it's easy to build a deck that can perform reasonably well without very many "money staples" at all.
For the second time in my year of trading, I have not received something with DC. Last summer, a package had an acceptance scan shown on USPS.com...never received it, and it takes them, like, six weeks to manually track it. Now, in a current trade, the web site says the package was delivered a week ago...I never got it. Probably to the wrong address.
With online trading, you can never be too safe, but you have to feel comfortable enough or you won't enjoy it. I feel comfortable, as you can see from my over one hundred trades, but I hate the incompetence of our postal service.
Just want to say a quick word I leave my home, will post a longer reply later on, if you feel that the trade is too large, besides registered mail, you can used EMS. This provides tracking, you could use the USPS website to actually see where it is heading to now. Its extremely save, and you could ship any amount of cards as long they fit the envelope. That will cost you $25 for shipping. Its worth if IMO if you are dealing for extremely high valued deals. I did one with bagbokk for a $1600ish deal via EMS, the shipping was extremely good.
You guys may want to use UPS or FedEx for international shipments, too. There's guarunteed, tracked shipments, too.
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This member has been found guilty of ripping a number of users on MTGSalvation. As a result he has been banned on this site and all his positive feedback has been removed. The MTGSalvation Staff wants to strongly encourage you NOT to trade with this member ever again in whatever situation might come up.
Spread the word.
Another weird thing...current deal with caselogik...
We had a simulsend. His DC# showed delivery on 8/2 when I checked it on 8/9. Now, I have been home and never got it. Seems like my post office delivered to the wrong address and can't check the address...it only shows town and date on the DC site. They say they take 6 weeks to track it.
I know it seems sketchy, but I am only going to use UPS from now on.
Another weird thing...current deal with caselogik...
We had a simulsend. His DC# showed delivery on 8/2 when I checked it on 8/9. Now, I have been home and never got it. Seems like my post office delivered to the wrong address and can't check the address...it only shows town and date on the DC site. They say they take 6 weeks to track it.
I know it seems sketchy, but I am only going to use UPS from now on.
Sorry that I did'nt reply earlier. EMS which is express mail is really good. $25 for whatever you can fit into the envelope, and has tracking worldwide, and updated whenever theres a movement in the pacakge.
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here are two problems:
first is as long as one doenst uses Dc, the other can just say he never recieved and thus might be getting free cards since rule is it is sender's responsibility to replace the cards
the second fault is "Dc is savior" idea because Dc dont actually prove a thing. A player can techincally send a mail with nothing in it but blank paper or anything but send it with Dc.
those are 2 faults I spotted with the current ruling system of trade, even though most traders are truthful and responisble. Isn't this worth watching out for? Or is this just a common risk for trading online
Most people here are honest enough not to do that. I've never met someone here who traded with me to do this.
An example of a case like this is Lance's case, he was a mod and sent an empty envelope. Was caught and banned. An empty envelope would show the weight to be lower than with cards, it would be easy to tell.
Let's say I was supposed to send you two FOIL Shocklands. Instead I send you two FOIL Ravnica Forests (which would have identical weight to the shocklands) via Registered Mail. What do you do? Prove that I ripped you. I agree they are flaws. It's just a matter of trust. If somebody wants to rip you, they will.
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
1. Rely on reference numbers
2. Check references
3. Keep the value of the trade down if you're uneasy, or require that they send first.
In my 4 or 5 years of online trading, I've been ripped 3 times (one way or another) for about $25 or so total. It's gonna happen from time to time, but the Internet is just too good of a way to trade to pass up. Good luck.
Magic Rules Advisor
How Creatures Die
Targets | Triggered Abilities | Priority and the Stack | Older Articles
You can reduce your risk by doing what others have said; stick to small trades at first, switching to bigger trades only when your refs are high enough for others to send first. Third-party trades are also an option (though obviously you then risk the third party's honesty.)
I try to keep it down to 2-3 at a time, and with my refs, I usually have people send first.
For someone with low trade refs, try to deal with high ref traders and mods to build up your refs to be able to not trade with anyone unless they send first.
The only way I send first now is If i'm paying through paypal, and that is trackable, and I can force a refund if the cards never show up.
This happened with Sephiroth Owa. He is from the UK, he sent, he had proof that he sent, but I never recieved. I was about to file a claim with paypal, when he found out through the UK postal system that the mail was never delivered. He got his money back and so did I.
[html]http://www.magictraders.com/reflists/TheDragon.html[/html]
I collect Foil Dragons and Foil Angels. Got one for me?
This is no excuse not to send your side out asap. if you can't handle too many trades, don't do it, its simple enough. His attitude towards fellow traders and the mods ain't great either.
3rd parties are trustable actually, if not they won't be approved to be doing 3rd parties. As what the others said, check the BTA, check the other trader refs before trading. High refs does'nt mean a good trader. That certain trader could be constantly checking in and out of the BTA threads and if you never have checked, you might have made yourself vunerable to getting ripped. Start small trades at first to build your refs, when its high enough, you could get others to simul or send first. Once you get the hang of trading, you can also make big trades as well, but be sure to take more precaution when making big trades. A mod as a 3rd party would be the best.
Also if someone has been BTA'ed for slow sending, slow payment, I suggest the rest not to trade with these people. if it happens once, it will happen again. Well thats my take on it.
PS: I've been ripped a lot, and thats on ebay, around year 1999 or so. So all I can say is, be very careful. The internet is a great mask for a ripper to hide under.
Start up a list here, I bet I'll even post in it! I want to agree with Magik though, having other commitments does not mean that you can have a bad attitude and delay shipping for MONTHS. There are a bunch of us who have a lot of trades going on who keep up with them. It is good to stick to smaller trades at first since you will always be sending first, then branch out more and go bigger. I still prefer doing all $100+ trades through a third party. I have only been ripped once in about 18 months, and even then, he was supposed to send first so I lost nothing except a dip in the value of the cards I had traded.
I bought some cards awhile back on this sight and thought for sure I was going to be ripped-off and waited for my cards to be sent and the waited some more because I had 0 ref’s and I did eventually get my cards the mail was just slow the important things to remember is that the mods are great about getting ripper’s removed from tradeing on this site, and that just like in real life you should never make a deal you can’t afford to lose out on online no matter how many ref’s a trader has. And as someone else has already said if you are paying for cards pay-pal is your best friend.
Do note that we talk about those who seem to never receive from people who don't use DC and we have banned a few in the past - and possibly some more in the near future.
Spread the word.
Going to www.magictraders.com is probably a great place to start as there are a ton of trustworthy and ref hefty people over there. This site isn't so bad either though.
Magic Rules Advisor
How Creatures Die
Targets | Triggered Abilities | Priority and the Stack | Older Articles
MOTL!?!?!?!?!
Blasphemy!!!
Anyway everything that people have said so far is correct. There is certainly an increased chance of getting ripped with online trading, but there is much that you can do to make it safer, and Delivery Confirmation is one of those tools. Sure its not infallable, but it is an infinatey better alternative to blindly sending and praying it:
A) Arrives
and
B) The person you trade with is honest enough to admit they recieved
Lance, as an example, is proof that Delivery Confirmation and receipts can be some fairly damning evidence, and can save your skin.
In my 80+ trades on this site, I have never been ripped. I have had people agree to trades, but never send out, but since they were sending first, I suffered no loss.
In all Online Trading is just too god to pass up.
(As Yare said, magictraders.com is a great site, even though I will stick with good 'ol MTGS)
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For the second time in my year of trading, I have not received something with DC. Last summer, a package had an acceptance scan shown on USPS.com...never received it, and it takes them, like, six weeks to manually track it. Now, in a current trade, the web site says the package was delivered a week ago...I never got it. Probably to the wrong address.
With online trading, you can never be too safe, but you have to feel comfortable enough or you won't enjoy it. I feel comfortable, as you can see from my over one hundred trades, but I hate the incompetence of our postal service.
Spread the word.
We had a simulsend. His DC# showed delivery on 8/2 when I checked it on 8/9. Now, I have been home and never got it. Seems like my post office delivered to the wrong address and can't check the address...it only shows town and date on the DC site. They say they take 6 weeks to track it.
I know it seems sketchy, but I am only going to use UPS from now on.
Or you can send Via Falcon... if its not eaten in transport.
Sorry that I did'nt reply earlier. EMS which is express mail is really good. $25 for whatever you can fit into the envelope, and has tracking worldwide, and updated whenever theres a movement in the pacakge.