When Rootbound Defenses was first "spoiled" the thread was closed too quickly by a moderator with a trigger happy and/or Napoleon syndrome.
I have been playing MTG for over 17 years and been reading online forums since thedojo.com. For those years, I have never seen Moderators as uptight, anal, and frankly on such a power trip as the ones here. I love this site in that it is really second to none when it comes to spoilers, EDH tech, and MTG news.
I am advocating free speech, even if there is trolling and verbal attacks, LET IT GO... it's a MAGIC FORUM. I have served in the Armed Forces for 4 years during Iraqi and Enduring Freedom and freedom to communicate I feel is always the best route.
Moderators, yes while you have a role, get over your ego to "warn" or "ban" others just because you don't like what they say. Let people speak their minds, let people voice their opinions, and let the people decide what is fake or real. If a card is obviously fake, multiple repeated ad posts, yes please ban those... but let the "gray" area rumors and postings stand....
But in response - I'd just like to point out, that the diligence the moderators show on this form discourage people from posting false information, and promote a positive forum of discussion, as opposed to unnecessary ad hominem attacks and off-topic posts.
I personally like the way things are handled here, as its one of the better places on the internet I can discuss a hobby I like without having to wade through utter drivel and unnecessary discussion.
I am very willing for a slightly higher level of security in order to have a better environment to discuss upcoming sets. A false negative here and there does not significantly impact me as much as a false positive would.
Just be glad this isn't the yugioh subsection of the Pojo forums.
The fact is there, you could start a speculation thread there, but after a few posts, it becomes locked. Let's say if somebody found a yugioh card, let's say a Return of the Duelist card packaged in a Galactic Overlord booster pack, (Return of the Duelist isn't released yet), and somebody goes to share it in the Pojo boards, BOOM lock, throw away the key. Only products and cards confirmed by the big bosses at Konami are allowed.
Make a Rant thread there? LOCK.
Have cool ideas that you want to suggest and talk about? Lock.
And to think that section of the boards is labled TCG GOSSIP and discussion.
At least the Salv is lenient in that it allows us to post about product that has not been officially revealed by WOTC yet. Product images at least.
If they let every little thread like the rootbound defense one run rampant because "it's the first time that card hit the rumor mill" then we would be flooded with troll posts and the real rumors would fall by the wayside. Good moderation keeps the forum clean. They closed the previous thread because we weren't close to spoiler season and this card had a different copyright template. It's not like they just closed it because they had the power too.
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i kind of agree. its sad to see so many discussions squashed because a mod doesnt think its real or because a mod doesnt like where the discussion is going. ive never seen a forum with so many locked threads.
i kind of agree. its sad to see so many discussions squashed because a mod doesnt think its real or because a mod doesnt like where the discussion is going. ive never seen a forum with so many locked threads.
I've seen plenty of forums that are more uptight. And I think this forum has gotten a lot better recently.
The Rootborn Defenses thing was a mistake, but an understandable one. I don't think it deserves any big outcry.
i kind of agree. its sad to see so many discussions squashed because a mod doesnt think its real or because a mod doesnt like where the discussion is going. ive never seen a forum with so many locked threads.
This was my point, I said that I really like this site, it is very well moderated and clean to an extent. If the topic is clearly spam, yes please close it.
But I am only asking the moderators do not close threads because they feel like it's "off", I've seen hilarious users argue back and forth which is quite entertaining if you ask me. See two grown men bicker over magic is quite the scene....
regarding fakes, if it is a few fakes let the people see it and have a good laugh... what's the harm?
But in response - I'd just like to point out, that the diligence the moderators show on this form discourage people from posting false information, and promote a positive forum of discussion, as opposed to unnecessary ad hominem attacks and off-topic posts.
I personally like the way things are handled here, as its one of the better places on the internet I can discuss a hobby I like without having to wade through utter drivel and unnecessary discussion.
I am very willing for a slightly higher level of security in order to have a better environment to discuss upcoming sets. A false negative here and there does not significantly impact me as much as a false positive would.
I agree with this...I'd rather have threads temporarily closed while mods look into the legitimacy of rumors than have multiple threads on fakes stay open and clutter up the forum.
In addition, little over 12 hours lapsed between the closing of the first Rootborn Defenses thread and the opening of the second thread...let's not act like a grave injustice occurred here.
While i agree that the mods are SOMETIMES a little trigger happy, I think tight moderation is what makes a good forum, especially in one like this with a steady stream of new information. Someone needs to he around to gelp us sort out the good from the bad. There are STILL people who think the copyright line is evidence against Rootborn defenses. Mods keep that minority fron getting out of control and prevent us from having 10 threads on every new card...
If the mods aren't strict about maintaining a forum such as the rumor mill, the place will become quite disorganized in a matter of days.
They aren't just strict in Rumor Mill-
I got an Infraction (not a warning, a freaking INFRACTION) in the Rules forum for thanking someone.
That caused me to lose just a little more faith in humanity,
and if you don't think that's being too strict, well, I'm glad I don't work for you!
Like the OP said, closing obvious spam threads and banning actual spambots is one thing,
but this forum has the loosest, most arbitrary definition of "spam" I've ever seen.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I was well within my rights and experience to close the thread based on the seemingly botched copyright. That wasn't my only concern with the card ether, the reminder text was pointed out to be accurate. The art shows that it was ether a very good fake or real, but when we have no evidence of the copyright templating being changed we also have the right to call it a fake based on that evidence.
Should i re-open the two fake shocklands rumors because they have minor problems with the wordings? Should i let the thread devolve into a mess because of an obvious mistake in the fake? Should i close the current Lich lord spoiler because the wording seems off? Its all subjective but WOTC is very strict about how things are worded across multiple cards. It is my job within the mill to notice such errors and close the trolling fakes when i spot them and the evidence supports it. The evidence supported my closure at the time until more evidence was presented to us by the supplier of the card. I did not act without proper evidence to support my actions.
I can admit to my mistakes. I'm only human. Every rumor mod makes mistakes and gets trolled by a fake or fooled by a change in template in their tenure here. Even the best we had was convinced of a fake. A fake that people still reference and remember. I added a fake card to the AVR spoiler because i didn't research it to the fullest. It was a mistake and it was quickly corrected as well.
They aren't just strict in Rumor Mill-
I got an Infraction (not a warning, a freaking INFRACTION) in the Rules forum for thanking someone.
That caused me to lose just a little more faith in humanity,
and if you don't think that's being too strict, well, I'm glad I don't work for you!
Like the OP said, closing obvious spam threads and banning actual spambots is one thing,
but this forum has the loosest, most arbitrary definition of "spam" I've ever seen.
this is what I originally meant, for example in the magic alters section... Eric Klug who is IMHO one of the best alter artists out there was "infracted" from things that I can honest say was BS.
He has since quit the forums on alters, those are the loose and arbitrary thins I am roaring against... not the obvious spam bots
I disagree because I think there are forums that should be closely and tightly monitored such as The Rumor Mill and any forum discussing serious topics regarding strategies, play tech, etc. I would hate to shift through countless pages of complete crap before finding anything remotely relevant to the thread topic. There is a reason why I almost exclusively go to MTGS for all rumor and strategy-related things, and that reason is because of how the threads are maintained. Usually I think the mods in the Rumor Mill do a great job at attempting to persue a suspected fake card or source before just pre-emptively locking the thread. I think in the Rootborn Defenses case, it was just a mistake...and in their defense, there were a lot of red flags along the way that would have made a lot of people think it had to be a fake.
However I also can agree with the OP on one point and that's that sometimes the mods can appear to take their "job" a little too seriously. Especially in the "general" forums as I call them such as Magic General Discussion, Speculation, Market Street, etc where even small talk or humorous posts tend to get plastered with red type just for straying slightly from the forum rules. Sometimes its enforced and sometimes it isn't. Everything anyone posts according to the rules has to be relevant to the topic at hand, so what myself and others end up doing in order to post our off topic or comedic comment is add to that an on-topic comment that has either already been brought up or is something painfully obvious - all in the name of not getting an infraction. So the post is still there anyway. It just depends on the mod also. I'd like to see a little more give afforded to those forums.
OP: For starters, I think criticizing the mods here with words like "anal" is a very bold and brave move (albeit not as brave as serving in the military). I'd honestly be very surprised if your initial post, or creating this thread in this particular forum doesn't get you an infraction within a few hours.
Secondly, I have to concur with the opinion that sometimes mods here can be slightly...overzealous when it comes to handing out warnings and infractions. To be brutally honest I've seen so many trivial infractions and warnings over nitpickery that I honestly believe that there's a quota for them (though I highly doubt they'd ever confirm or deny it). I've personally always believed in freedom of speech, and I think that censoring message forums because posts, topics, or opinions expressed may conflict with the personal opinions of moderators supports fascist ideology. Ideally infractions should be reserved for illegal activity or the discussion thereof, not because someone forgot to use "cardtags".
However, all that aside, I've run my own BBS in the past and have been a moderator on a few others (non-magic related ones) over the years, so I understand they have a difficult job to do and have to make decisions which might upset some users from time to time. That being said, I fully respect the rights of, and the decisions the moderators make here as this is indeed their forum, it's free to use, and they indeed reserve the right to make whatever rules and regulations they feel are necessary (even if I, you, or the majority of the users disagree with some of them).
Anyhow, the best I can come up with myself is a game in the top 8 of a PTQ back during Urza block in which we were starting game 3 with time already expired, so the tiebreaker rule was that whoever had more life after 3 turns would win. And I lost to... healing salve.
They aren't just strict in Rumor Mill-
I got an Infraction (not a warning, a freaking INFRACTION) in the Rules forum for thanking someone.
That caused me to lose just a little more faith in humanity,
and if you don't think that's being too strict, well, I'm glad I don't work for you!
Like the OP said, closing obvious spam threads and banning actual spambots is one thing,
but this forum has the loosest, most arbitrary definition of "spam" I've ever seen.
They are really heavy handed with stuff like that and inconsistent, too, which is worse.
But i still think the Rumor Mill would be Anarchy without them. Itd be nuts. The reason this forun is such a reliable source forbinfornation is because mods have the power and pay enough attention to weed out the trolls.
In fact i still think there are too many redundant threads sometimes, they could do to tighten up in that department and loosen up in others. Im not saying we should resort to catch all threads but at one point i got the fweling there were way too mang threads on the golgari lich lird, and sometimes i feel like om having thebsame discussion in fouur or five threads. Could be on me a little though....
The heavy-handed moderating is needed to keep a place like The Rumor Mill in line. It is the section of the website with the most traffic and that sort of strictness is necessary. It also deters the hundreds of users that register to make one post for any given card spoiled from posting every single hearsay card someone comes up with.
When moderators were more lenient we were constantly spammed with threads with supposed cards people would randomly overhear around their LGS with no evidence ot back them up. Those threads generate even more spam by people's inability to not just post wherein they feel obligated to put spamm-ish, two or three word replies that basically say "fake".
When looking at the cost versus reward of the current state of things where moderating the Rumor Mill is concerned, there's effectively nothing actually gained from letting people spam and stopping deterring them from posting pointless speculation. Also if the moderators weren't doing their best to deter unsavory posting habits in the Mill, over time the increase in work flow would ramp up and they'd have to handle even more garbage. If you're afraid of getting caught in the cross-fire and warned/infracted in error, I'm pretty sure the last thing you'd want to do is increase moderator work flow.
I think that the moderation of this forum is head and shoulders above the standards of many other forums I peruse, both MTG based and otherwise. I also don't feel that it is right for trolling and verbal attacks to be permitted. Not to mention that it is insulting that the OP decided to throw around the fact that he served 4 years in the armed forces to try to lend more weight to his argument.
OP: For starters, I think criticizing the mods here with words like "anal" is a very bold and brave impolite move
Site has rules. Don't follow rules -> get warned/infracted. Should be simple.
Rules are supposed to be at the service of the userbase. If that is not so, then THAT's another issue. But complaining for your everyday rules in a CI thread? They have helpdesks for that.
They aren't just strict in Rumor Mill-
I got an Infraction (not a warning, a freaking INFRACTION) in the Rules forum for thanking someone.
That caused me to lose just a little more faith in humanity,
and if you don't think that's being too strict, well, I'm glad I don't work for you!
Like the OP said, closing obvious spam threads and banning actual spambots is one thing,
but this forum has the loosest, most arbitrary definition of "spam" I've ever seen.
To be fair the ruling forum is the second strictest moderated portion of this site. (Market Street is the first). I don't know how long ago it was, but we have a "thanks" button now so that won't be a problem any more.
Or we could all just look at your spam:
Wow, thanks for mentioning this card!
It's like Drain Power, only even better for multiplayer.
I'll definitely need one for some EDH decks.
People go to the rulings forum to ask rules questions and to get rules answered. Should it have been a warning? Maybe. Did you take it to the helpdesk and appeal?
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Promoting illegal activity is an automatic suspension.
Just like in every other large forum out there I might add.
I got suspended from Blizzard's forums for suggesting Blizzard (the owner of the IP) sell gear/et with real money. Got a week off for that.
Guess what.. Now you can buy just about anything you want from them with a credit card.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
I have been playing MTG for over 17 years and been reading online forums since thedojo.com. For those years, I have never seen Moderators as uptight, anal, and frankly on such a power trip as the ones here. I love this site in that it is really second to none when it comes to spoilers, EDH tech, and MTG news.
I am advocating free speech, even if there is trolling and verbal attacks, LET IT GO... it's a MAGIC FORUM. I have served in the Armed Forces for 4 years during Iraqi and Enduring Freedom and freedom to communicate I feel is always the best route.
Moderators, yes while you have a role, get over your ego to "warn" or "ban" others just because you don't like what they say. Let people speak their minds, let people voice their opinions, and let the people decide what is fake or real. If a card is obviously fake, multiple repeated ad posts, yes please ban those... but let the "gray" area rumors and postings stand....
But in response - I'd just like to point out, that the diligence the moderators show on this form discourage people from posting false information, and promote a positive forum of discussion, as opposed to unnecessary ad hominem attacks and off-topic posts.
I personally like the way things are handled here, as its one of the better places on the internet I can discuss a hobby I like without having to wade through utter drivel and unnecessary discussion.
I am very willing for a slightly higher level of security in order to have a better environment to discuss upcoming sets. A false negative here and there does not significantly impact me as much as a false positive would.
I'd love input and advice!
The fact is there, you could start a speculation thread there, but after a few posts, it becomes locked. Let's say if somebody found a yugioh card, let's say a Return of the Duelist card packaged in a Galactic Overlord booster pack, (Return of the Duelist isn't released yet), and somebody goes to share it in the Pojo boards, BOOM lock, throw away the key. Only products and cards confirmed by the big bosses at Konami are allowed.
Make a Rant thread there? LOCK.
Have cool ideas that you want to suggest and talk about? Lock.
And to think that section of the boards is labled TCG GOSSIP and discussion.
At least the Salv is lenient in that it allows us to post about product that has not been officially revealed by WOTC yet. Product images at least.
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Draft it here!
1. Thank you for your service. I have a lot of friends in the military and that is a tough job.
2. That's how the mods are on MTGSalvation. Spend any amount of time here and you'll see that they're mostly crazy.
3. It's just a children's card game.
I've seen plenty of forums that are more uptight. And I think this forum has gotten a lot better recently.
The Rootborn Defenses thing was a mistake, but an understandable one. I don't think it deserves any big outcry.
This was my point, I said that I really like this site, it is very well moderated and clean to an extent. If the topic is clearly spam, yes please close it.
But I am only asking the moderators do not close threads because they feel like it's "off", I've seen hilarious users argue back and forth which is quite entertaining if you ask me. See two grown men bicker over magic is quite the scene....
regarding fakes, if it is a few fakes let the people see it and have a good laugh... what's the harm?
Your service is appreciated.
If the mods aren't strict about maintaining a forum such as the rumor mill, the place will become quite disorganized in a matter of days.
Currently Playing:
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I agree with this...I'd rather have threads temporarily closed while mods look into the legitimacy of rumors than have multiple threads on fakes stay open and clutter up the forum.
In addition, little over 12 hours lapsed between the closing of the first Rootborn Defenses thread and the opening of the second thread...let's not act like a grave injustice occurred here.
EDH:
Niv-Mizzet
Legacy:
The Rack
Modern
Venser, the Sojourner Control
They aren't just strict in Rumor Mill-
I got an Infraction (not a warning, a freaking INFRACTION) in the Rules forum for thanking someone.
That caused me to lose just a little more faith in humanity,
and if you don't think that's being too strict, well, I'm glad I don't work for you!
Like the OP said, closing obvious spam threads and banning actual spambots is one thing,
but this forum has the loosest, most arbitrary definition of "spam" I've ever seen.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I was well within my rights and experience to close the thread based on the seemingly botched copyright. That wasn't my only concern with the card ether, the reminder text was pointed out to be accurate. The art shows that it was ether a very good fake or real, but when we have no evidence of the copyright templating being changed we also have the right to call it a fake based on that evidence.
Should i re-open the two fake shocklands rumors because they have minor problems with the wordings? Should i let the thread devolve into a mess because of an obvious mistake in the fake? Should i close the current Lich lord spoiler because the wording seems off? Its all subjective but WOTC is very strict about how things are worded across multiple cards. It is my job within the mill to notice such errors and close the trolling fakes when i spot them and the evidence supports it. The evidence supported my closure at the time until more evidence was presented to us by the supplier of the card. I did not act without proper evidence to support my actions.
I can admit to my mistakes. I'm only human. Every rumor mod makes mistakes and gets trolled by a fake or fooled by a change in template in their tenure here. Even the best we had was convinced of a fake. A fake that people still reference and remember. I added a fake card to the AVR spoiler because i didn't research it to the fullest. It was a mistake and it was quickly corrected as well.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
this is what I originally meant, for example in the magic alters section... Eric Klug who is IMHO one of the best alter artists out there was "infracted" from things that I can honest say was BS.
He has since quit the forums on alters, those are the loose and arbitrary thins I am roaring against... not the obvious spam bots
I disagree because I think there are forums that should be closely and tightly monitored such as The Rumor Mill and any forum discussing serious topics regarding strategies, play tech, etc. I would hate to shift through countless pages of complete crap before finding anything remotely relevant to the thread topic. There is a reason why I almost exclusively go to MTGS for all rumor and strategy-related things, and that reason is because of how the threads are maintained. Usually I think the mods in the Rumor Mill do a great job at attempting to persue a suspected fake card or source before just pre-emptively locking the thread. I think in the Rootborn Defenses case, it was just a mistake...and in their defense, there were a lot of red flags along the way that would have made a lot of people think it had to be a fake.
However I also can agree with the OP on one point and that's that sometimes the mods can appear to take their "job" a little too seriously. Especially in the "general" forums as I call them such as Magic General Discussion, Speculation, Market Street, etc where even small talk or humorous posts tend to get plastered with red type just for straying slightly from the forum rules. Sometimes its enforced and sometimes it isn't. Everything anyone posts according to the rules has to be relevant to the topic at hand, so what myself and others end up doing in order to post our off topic or comedic comment is add to that an on-topic comment that has either already been brought up or is something painfully obvious - all in the name of not getting an infraction. So the post is still there anyway. It just depends on the mod also. I'd like to see a little more give afforded to those forums.
Secondly, I have to concur with the opinion that sometimes mods here can be slightly...overzealous when it comes to handing out warnings and infractions. To be brutally honest I've seen so many trivial infractions and warnings over nitpickery that I honestly believe that there's a quota for them (though I highly doubt they'd ever confirm or deny it). I've personally always believed in freedom of speech, and I think that censoring message forums because posts, topics, or opinions expressed may conflict with the personal opinions of moderators supports fascist ideology. Ideally infractions should be reserved for illegal activity or the discussion thereof, not because someone forgot to use "cardtags".
However, all that aside, I've run my own BBS in the past and have been a moderator on a few others (non-magic related ones) over the years, so I understand they have a difficult job to do and have to make decisions which might upset some users from time to time. That being said, I fully respect the rights of, and the decisions the moderators make here as this is indeed their forum, it's free to use, and they indeed reserve the right to make whatever rules and regulations they feel are necessary (even if I, you, or the majority of the users disagree with some of them).
Y'know what they say... "When in Rome..."
They are really heavy handed with stuff like that and inconsistent, too, which is worse.
But i still think the Rumor Mill would be Anarchy without them. Itd be nuts. The reason this forun is such a reliable source forbinfornation is because mods have the power and pay enough attention to weed out the trolls.
In fact i still think there are too many redundant threads sometimes, they could do to tighten up in that department and loosen up in others. Im not saying we should resort to catch all threads but at one point i got the fweling there were way too mang threads on the golgari lich lird, and sometimes i feel like om having thebsame discussion in fouur or five threads. Could be on me a little though....
EDH:
Niv-Mizzet
Legacy:
The Rack
Modern
Venser, the Sojourner Control
When moderators were more lenient we were constantly spammed with threads with supposed cards people would randomly overhear around their LGS with no evidence ot back them up. Those threads generate even more spam by people's inability to not just post wherein they feel obligated to put spamm-ish, two or three word replies that basically say "fake".
When looking at the cost versus reward of the current state of things where moderating the Rumor Mill is concerned, there's effectively nothing actually gained from letting people spam and stopping deterring them from posting pointless speculation. Also if the moderators weren't doing their best to deter unsavory posting habits in the Mill, over time the increase in work flow would ramp up and they'd have to handle even more garbage. If you're afraid of getting caught in the cross-fire and warned/infracted in error, I'm pretty sure the last thing you'd want to do is increase moderator work flow.
TL;DR - It's fine the way it is.
(Also known as Xenphire)
Site has rules. Don't follow rules -> get warned/infracted. Should be simple.
Rules are supposed to be at the service of the userbase. If that is not so, then THAT's another issue. But complaining for your everyday rules in a CI thread? They have helpdesks for that.
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To be fair the ruling forum is the second strictest moderated portion of this site. (Market Street is the first). I don't know how long ago it was, but we have a "thanks" button now so that won't be a problem any more.
Or we could all just look at your spam:
People go to the rulings forum to ask rules questions and to get rules answered. Should it have been a warning? Maybe. Did you take it to the helpdesk and appeal?
If you have an issue with your infraction, then you should take it up with the moderator in question as outlined in this thread.
Promoting illegal activity is an automatic suspension.
Just like in every other large forum out there I might add.
I got suspended from Blizzard's forums for suggesting Blizzard (the owner of the IP) sell gear/et with real money. Got a week off for that.
Guess what.. Now you can buy just about anything you want from them with a credit card.
Infraction for Spam issued - Nai
—Dr. Cox, Scrubs