First and foremost, I do not want to be readded to the staff. I just want what happened to me not to happen to anyone else again, and an apology from the member responsible would be adequate.
About two and a half weeks ago I was removed from staff. I asked the Administrator why, and he gave me a laundry list of reasons. I followed up on some of them, and he wrote this to me:
"Also for me, it's a health concern. Modding is stressful, & I have been genuinely worried that your position here has a negative net affect on your life. It should be fun. It can be difficult, but it should mostly be fun. I'm not seeing that it has been, for you."
I have been very open about my disability (bipolar/schizophrenic) to the staff and I feel as if making my disability a "cause for concern" is discrimination based upon ability. Specifically, my mental illness.
If this was a true health concern, I would have been sat down and talked to about it instead of it being thrown with a hash of other things that I did wrong. In the United States, at least, a comment like this could result in a lawsuit were this a paid position. Instead, they so gravely felt that my mental health was a concern that they fired me instead. Which is a grand leap of logic on their part.
NO ONE ON THESE BOARDS SHOULD BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST FOR ANY REASON. I believe that I have been given an injustice and this is me trying to rectify it.
About two and a half weeks ago I was removed from staff. I asked the Administrator why, and he gave me a laundry list of reasons.
How can you expect us to have properly formed opinions when you are omitting large chunks of information? Without knowing what all of those reasons are, not just the one you believe is related to your mental illness, I can't reasonably determine whether your argument is valid.
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
How can you expect us to have properly formed opinions when you are omitting large chunks of information? Without knowing what all of those reasons are, not just the one you believe is related to your mental illness, I can't reasonably determine whether your argument is valid.
Because the relevance of the other reasons doesn't matter; the disability was lumped in with "bad things" and is therefore discriminatory.
Consider:
"Well, you work at a laundry, and you're allergic to most detergents, you break out in hives when it gets humid, you constantly swear at customers for no good reason, and you're black, so we're firing you."
We've been discussing your position on staff in the Global Lounge & have come to the decision to relieve you of your duties at this time.
I apologize for adding to the burden of recent events, & I hope you can understand that it was a difficult discussion; we all like you, we just don't feel you're a good fit with the requirements of the work.
For the record, there is no specific incident we looked at; this is not a direct result of the interactions on your helpdesk yesterday.
As an aside, Annorax & I have discussed that [redacted], & your name is at the top of that list. If this is something you think you would be interested, please let me know.
Best wishes,
Quote from Arnnaria »
I'm not really interested in [redacted]. Can you please elucidate the reasons why I'm being removed?
Quote from rianalnn »
Sure thing. Basically, it is a quality-of-work issue.
To take the most recent example, your interaction with Matt. His first question was, 'where was the trolling?' – you completely dodge the question that is critical to the user understanding why you issued the infraction. Granted, Matt seems to be looking for a fight. Be that as it may, your response did anything but defuse him.
I can set out more examples if you need them.
Quote from Arnnaria »
Yes, please.
I would like a detailed account of what was taken into consideration. Like an "infraction" history, if you will.
Quote from rianalnn »
You are aware of the issues you've had since coming on staff; incidents like the crackdown in WCT really got the administration's attention.
There are numerous cases of questionable moderation, where it feels like your grasp on the rules or where the line of acceptable falls is just not solid. For example, this thread, which you asked 'it should be closed, right?' – when the conclusion we came to last time was that we have no actual legal obligation, & we are fine with them as long as people aren't prescribing drugs or whatever.
Generally speaking, you seem to have a hard time separating your personal opinions/emotions from the work at hand, & it seems you don't take criticism very well (making this a very awkward task).
Other things taken into consideration are behaviors like your interactions with the Gutter; you clearly aren't welcome there, but you insist on pulling a [redacted], generating ill will towards the staff in a place where we really don't need any more ill will.
Also for me, it's a health concern. Modding is stressful, & I have been genuinely worried that your position here has a negative net affect on your life. It should be fun. It can be difficult, but it should mostly be fun. I'm not seeing that it has been, for you.
Quote from Arnnaria »
Point of contention: If you are interested in [redacted], I would be interested.
I don't disagree with why I was relieved, but I will say this. Moderating gave me a sense of purpose on my "downtime" which actually gave me some mental stability. Yes, I overstressed, but not as much as first and not for the wrong reasons. Now that I'm not a member of a group, I feel anomic.
Quote from rianalnn »
I will raise the idea with the appropriate dudes, it's all very half-baked/two mentions over IMs at this point.
As for being homeless, there are a million cliques on Salve *resists urge to pimp Clans, fails* Take heart!
Like I've said, I had no knowledge of Arnnaria having any kind of condition. I was simply concerned for someone I saw not coping well with the role of moderator; I don't think I was out of line expressing my personal concern for another person's well-being.
Also, this wasn't out of the blue; it is my understanding past incidents had led to the admin staff (prior to my addition) setting up Arnnaria with a 'mentorship' relationship with Sene. I was not privvy to this action, nor the details.
Well, also, saying that it "Seems to be causing stress" isn't saying "You're a schizo, so we're firing you."
I deal with Schizophrenia, mild depression, bouts of much less mild depression, ADHD, OCD with certain things, and until recently, was getting over some PTSD, so no, I'm not coming from the people who "don't get it"
This doesn't sound like discrimination. Now, if they actually said that they thought that, because of your mental state, it was causing you too much stress?Then yes, this was done the wrong way, I agree.
But, if my issues were keeping me from doing my job right, and that got me fired? I'd have to just go with it. sometimes the guy who hears the voices of every character he reads about in his head just isnt the best guy to work at Barnes and Noble
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Because the relevance of the other reasons doesn't matter; the disability was lumped in with "bad things" and is therefore discriminatory.
Consider:
"Well, you work at a laundry, and you're allergic to most detergents, you break out in hives when it gets humid, you constantly swear at customers for no good reason, and you're black, so we're firing you."
That's not a direct analogy if the comments were to general stress and mental health, not directed at any specific mental condition, as Riann stated above. So it wasn't the disability lumped in with anything. If what Riann~ says is true.
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
Because the relevance of the other reasons doesn't matter; the disability was lumped in with "bad things" and is therefore discriminatory.
That's assuming the disability was actually part of the decision-making process. Which if rianalnn's post is to be believed, it wasn't.
Consider:
"Well, you work at a laundry, and you're allergic to most detergents, you break out in hives when it gets humid, you constantly swear at customers for no good reason, and you're black, so we're firing you."
Consider that this also wasn't how the situation was being discussed. It was in the context of a statement that could have, in some cases, been interpreted as relating to a mental illness and in other cases not.
Context matters here.
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
I was also completely oblivious to your diagnosis, I had no idea about it until I read this thread. Suffice to say, this decision wasn't made based on the knowledge or suspicion of mental issues, nor do I think rianalnn's comment hinted at it at all. Rianalnn's comment, the way I see it, is simply an unofficial, personal concern that you didn't find modding to be fun, and as such had a negative impact on your life. It did not play a part in the decision to demod you.
It looks to me like this decision wasn't based upon someone's mental illness. It was based upon the ability of someone with a mental illness to do the job. Those are two different things. A disability is not a free pass - you still need to be able to handle your position with reasonable accommodations. I'm sorry about the loss of your position, but it seems to me it was justified.
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Retrodrome!
Hoi, hoi, u embleer hrair
M'saion ulé hraka vair.
It looks to me like this decision wasn't based upon someone's mental illness. It was based upon the ability of someone with a mental illness to do the job. Those are two different things. A disability is not a free pass - you still need to be able to handle your position with reasonable accommodations. I'm sorry about the loss of your position, but it seems to me it was justified.
To be fair, this decision was based upon by a number of people. Since I cannot "poll the jury", nor have access to the records of their decision, all I have to go on are the PM's that Rianalnn posted.
I asked my mentor for an apology on behalf of this. I was told I would not get said apology and to discuss my grievance in CI.
That's not a direct analogy if the comments were to general stress and mental health, not directed at any specific mental condition, as Riann stated above. So it wasn't the disability lumped in with anything. If what Riann~ says is true.
That's assuming the disability was actually part of the decision-making process. Which if rianalnn's post is to be believed, it wasn't.
[...]
Consider that this also wasn't how the situation was being discussed. It was in the context of a statement that could have, in some cases, been interpreted as relating to a mental illness and in other cases not.
Context matters here.
Listen, I'm just trying to keep people from having to drag a whole bunch of dirty laundry into the light without reason (although I see this has become something of a moot point :embarrass:). The focus should remain on the issue of whether or not discriminatory statements were made, not whether the action of dismissal was warranted.
"Well, you work at a laundry, and you're allergic to most detergents, you break out in hives when it gets humid, you constantly swear at customers for no good reason, and you're black, so we're firing you."
This is racism.
Quote from rianalnn »
Also for me, it's a health concern. Modding is stressful, & I have been genuinely worried that your position here has a negative net affect on your life. It should be fun. It can be difficult, but it should mostly be fun. I'm not seeing that it has been, for you.
This is concern for a fellow staff member. This is compassion.
I will not apologize for saying I care about someone.
Good intentions are no excuse for how hurtful that comment was to me and my sense of self.
I would think that good intentions were actually a good excuse. You're really taking that statement the wrong way and forcing it to pigeonhole your feeling of discrimation, which frankly appears unwarranted.
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It should probably be mentioned that while ria was not being discriminatory, it wasn't because he's not allowed to be. There is nothing stopping the people in charge of this site from discriminating against anybody. It is not a job, and you were not fired. You were removed from moderating off a privately-owned website. If they wanted you off staff because you're crazy and said so to your face, your only course of action would be to leave the site or stay on as a member. Right now you have the same options. You aren't owed any explanations or apologies for anything. That the administrators are even acknowledging this thread on friendly terms should give you enough satisfaction to stop while you're ahead of yourself.
As a former staff member you are aware that there are better ways to approach staff over grievances than this. That you chose to go with the CI 'look at me' thread is a glaring example of why you are not on the staff anymore.
It should probably be mentioned that while ria was not being discriminatory, it wasn't because he's not allowed to be. There is nothing stopping the people in charge of this site from discriminating against anybody. It is not a job, and you were not fired. You were removed from moderating off a privately-owned website. If they wanted you off staff because you're crazy and said so to your face, your only course of action would be to leave the site or stay on as a member. Right now you have the same options. You aren't owed any explanations or apologies for anything. That the administrators are even acknowledging this thread on friendly terms should give you enough satisfaction to stop while you're ahead of yourself.
As a former staff member you are aware that there are better ways to approach staff over grievances than this. That you chose to go with the CI 'look at me' thread is a glaring example of why you are not on the staff anymore.
I was told by an admin that CI was the place to bring this topic to light.
Good intentions are no excuse for how hurtful that comment was to me and my sense of self.
I don't want to stick my nose in someone else's business, but Arnnaria, everyone gets stressed out, so my advice to you is don't take it personally. It's not something to be ashamed of because we're all good at different things. You're a really nice guy and that made it hard for you to be a good moderator, but that's something you can be proud of! Keep being kind, be proud of what you are, but it's just as important to realise what you're not. There's no need to be offended by someone pointing out a fault because we all have them in one way or another!
Ria, don't doubt yourself. You're one of my favorite staff members, and I would be proud to wear an infraction from you like a damn badge, just because it would have your name on it ='D
Mr. Pacifist, this sure seems like a lot of trouble-stirring. I think this is a private affair between you and ria. You took a very compassionate thought hurtfully, and for that, well, that sucks I guess. If someone says "You appear to be stressed out, let me relieve that" ...don't get offended. Please. I like you, and would prefer not to see abominations like this thread from you
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Ria, don't doubt yourself. You're one of my favorite staff members, and I would be proud to wear an infraction from you like a damn badge, just because it would have your name on it ='D
I don't have you on AIM, ria, or I would've gone to you. Given our last conversation hurt me, why would I contact you?
I don't know why you couldn't/wouldn't PM me, so you could directly threaten me with CI drama if I didn't appease you? I am honestly baffled. While you were on staff, I was never anything but a friend to you, & when I saw you having a rough time, I went out of my way to try to alleviate your burden with some lighthearted fun ().
Unfortunately it fell to me to terminate your tenure here. I have to assume I transgressed some expectation of distance or professionalism or personal boundaries, but I don't feel I had any reason to presume these things were there.
I have nothing else to say here that I haven't already said.
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About two and a half weeks ago I was removed from staff. I asked the Administrator why, and he gave me a laundry list of reasons. I followed up on some of them, and he wrote this to me:
"Also for me, it's a health concern. Modding is stressful, & I have been genuinely worried that your position here has a negative net affect on your life. It should be fun. It can be difficult, but it should mostly be fun. I'm not seeing that it has been, for you."
I have been very open about my disability (bipolar/schizophrenic) to the staff and I feel as if making my disability a "cause for concern" is discrimination based upon ability. Specifically, my mental illness.
If this was a true health concern, I would have been sat down and talked to about it instead of it being thrown with a hash of other things that I did wrong. In the United States, at least, a comment like this could result in a lawsuit were this a paid position. Instead, they so gravely felt that my mental health was a concern that they fired me instead. Which is a grand leap of logic on their part.
NO ONE ON THESE BOARDS SHOULD BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST FOR ANY REASON. I believe that I have been given an injustice and this is me trying to rectify it.
Thank you.
My comment was entirely related to stress, & the appearance that modding was causing you strife.
That doesn't make your comment any more "okay" now, then, or in the future.
How can you expect us to have properly formed opinions when you are omitting large chunks of information? Without knowing what all of those reasons are, not just the one you believe is related to your mental illness, I can't reasonably determine whether your argument is valid.
Because the relevance of the other reasons doesn't matter; the disability was lumped in with "bad things" and is therefore discriminatory.
Consider:
"Well, you work at a laundry, and you're allergic to most detergents, you break out in hives when it gets humid, you constantly swear at customers for no good reason, and you're black, so we're firing you."
Like I've said, I had no knowledge of Arnnaria having any kind of condition. I was simply concerned for someone I saw not coping well with the role of moderator; I don't think I was out of line expressing my personal concern for another person's well-being.
Also, this wasn't out of the blue; it is my understanding past incidents had led to the admin staff (prior to my addition) setting up Arnnaria with a 'mentorship' relationship with Sene. I was not privvy to this action, nor the details.
I deal with Schizophrenia, mild depression, bouts of much less mild depression, ADHD, OCD with certain things, and until recently, was getting over some PTSD, so no, I'm not coming from the people who "don't get it"
This doesn't sound like discrimination. Now, if they actually said that they thought that, because of your mental state, it was causing you too much stress?Then yes, this was done the wrong way, I agree.
But, if my issues were keeping me from doing my job right, and that got me fired? I'd have to just go with it. sometimes the guy who hears the voices of every character he reads about in his head just isnt the best guy to work at Barnes and Noble
Done by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery signatures!
That's not a direct analogy if the comments were to general stress and mental health, not directed at any specific mental condition, as Riann stated above. So it wasn't the disability lumped in with anything. If what Riann~ says is true.
That's assuming the disability was actually part of the decision-making process. Which if rianalnn's post is to be believed, it wasn't.
Consider that this also wasn't how the situation was being discussed. It was in the context of a statement that could have, in some cases, been interpreted as relating to a mental illness and in other cases not.
Context matters here.
Hoi, hoi, u embleer hrair
M'saion ulé hraka vair.
To be fair, this decision was based upon by a number of people. Since I cannot "poll the jury", nor have access to the records of their decision, all I have to go on are the PM's that Rianalnn posted.
I asked my mentor for an apology on behalf of this. I was told I would not get said apology and to discuss my grievance in CI.
Listen, I'm just trying to keep people from having to drag a whole bunch of dirty laundry into the light without reason (although I see this has become something of a moot point :embarrass:). The focus should remain on the issue of whether or not discriminatory statements were made, not whether the action of dismissal was warranted.
This is concern for a fellow staff member. This is compassion.
I will not apologize for saying I care about someone.
Good intentions are no excuse for how hurtful that comment was to me and my sense of self.
I would think that good intentions were actually a good excuse. You're really taking that statement the wrong way and forcing it to pigeonhole your feeling of discrimation, which frankly appears unwarranted.
As a former staff member you are aware that there are better ways to approach staff over grievances than this. That you chose to go with the CI 'look at me' thread is a glaring example of why you are not on the staff anymore.
I was told by an admin that CI was the place to bring this topic to light.
I don't want to stick my nose in someone else's business, but Arnnaria, everyone gets stressed out, so my advice to you is don't take it personally. It's not something to be ashamed of because we're all good at different things. You're a really nice guy and that made it hard for you to be a good moderator, but that's something you can be proud of! Keep being kind, be proud of what you are, but it's just as important to realise what you're not. There's no need to be offended by someone pointing out a fault because we all have them in one way or another!
I had no inclination to think that my comment would be taken for anything other than what it was: a gesture of care.
I guess the lesson is, next time, keep it cold business? Tuck my heart away? Maybe I'm not cut out for this job.
Ok, once was enough. How about, you tried to blackmail Sene into making me apologize?
>Arnnaria 7:02 pm
>I still think that quote is discriminatory and feel like I deserve an apology
>Sene 7:04 pm
>he was concerned about you, Arnnaria - it was nothing discriminatory about it
>Arnnaria 7:04 pm
>Then I'll take it up in community issues
>Or he can apologize, your choice
Mr. Pacifist, this sure seems like a lot of trouble-stirring. I think this is a private affair between you and ria. You took a very compassionate thought hurtfully, and for that, well, that sucks I guess. If someone says "You appear to be stressed out, let me relieve that" ...don't get offended. Please. I like you, and would prefer not to see abominations like this thread from you
Done by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery signatures!
I don't have you on AIM, ria, or I would've gone to you. Given our last conversation hurt me, why would I contact you?
Dude, you said "have him apolgize or I'm taking this to CI".
Drama bomb much?
Thanks, Zephynoir. I'm at a loss here.
I don't know why you couldn't/wouldn't PM me, so you could directly threaten me with CI drama if I didn't appease you? I am honestly baffled. While you were on staff, I was never anything but a friend to you, & when I saw you having a rough time, I went out of my way to try to alleviate your burden with some lighthearted fun ().
Unfortunately it fell to me to terminate your tenure here. I have to assume I transgressed some expectation of distance or professionalism or personal boundaries, but I don't feel I had any reason to presume these things were there.
I have nothing else to say here that I haven't already said.