I didn't see a thread on Karakas, and don't consider this any more than a thought exercise, but I'd like to wonder out loud--or more importantly, hear you all wonder out loud--about how dangerous this card is. I don't want to prejudice anyone's thoughts with my own, so I'll chime in later on.
I am on the fence about it. I don't think White decks really need it (they already have some of the best spot removal) but White is commonly seen (along with Red) one of the "weaker" colors in EDH. Karakas could give it enough of a boost and allow it to answer fast aggro or combo generals. I don't think people will splash white just for Karakas, but it becomes another point in favor of running white.
It also doesn't seem overly oppressive. In fact, in a "casual" meta it could be seen as a safety valve of sorts to fight against faster "combo" generals like Animar, Soul of Elements that blank white's spot removal already. If there is a player threatening to kill a player on turn 4 with Omnath, Locus of Mana Karakas can help stop it. And, with 3 other players, it is unlikely the game will revolve around that one land the white player has.
The main issue I see with it is, being a land, it requires specific cards to hate out so people can run their generals. Which means an increase in Strip Mine effects in case an opponent is running Karakas. Not sure if that would cause an increase in also running Crucible of Worlds but it is worth noting.
I personally would love to see it legal as it gives my Darien deck even more options against faster Generals and it is a land that I personally feel gives an efficient, colorless (though only played in white decks) answer to overly oppressive generals. But, repeatedly being able to bounce one player's general over and over may be too powerful.
I think it would be wonderful for the following cards. It would either help them be stronger and/or allow them to see more play than they currently do. As at the moment, quite a few of these commanders seek something like or in order to be used more properly as they were intended.
I think Karakas is probably capable of generating more harm than almost every other card on the banned list.
When someone has a Karakas in play, their opponents can't really play their commanders anymore. Sure, there are a few exceptions, but generally, Karakas is too oppressive. That's a big problem because Karakas costs nothing to play and the Commander format highly encourages players to build their decks around their commanders. It's what helps make Commander distinct. When someone takes that element away from their opponents as early as turn 1, that can suck a lot of fun out of the game. Some decks just rely on their commanders to operate, and players don't find games fun when they're unable to even participate because someone locked them out for little to no cost. The mere threat of bouncing a legend each turn is enough of a deterrent to stop opponents from ever effectively casting their format's namesake.
I also believe Karakas would be a ubiquitous card if it were unbanned. The recent Eternal Masters printing made the card a lot more accessible, and since it's basically a strictly better Plains, players have little reason not to play the card. It's extremely powerful, and players sacrifice nothing to run it. I imagine the only reasons players wouldn't play Karakas is because they either feel uncomfortable subjecting their opponents to something so oppressive, because it's too expensive and they can't afford the card, or because they aren't playing white. That's not a good sign.
Karakas's one saving grace is that it's modular enough to be used in creative ways. If players don't want to, they don't have to use Karakas oppressively. Players can use Karakas as a way to give their own commanders psuedo-shroud or use Karakas as a value engine by bouncing their commanders over and over, making use of some ETB effect repeatedly. With that said, I would not expect the vast majority of players to use Karakas this way. Maybe some folks would play the card as a Maze of Ith for enemy Commanders, but I imagine most just using it to keep one player off of their commander permanently because the cost to do so is so low and it's oppressively powerful. If Karakas could only target legendary creatures its owner controlled, it likely wouldn't be a problem at all. Similarly, if Karakas actually cost something to play like Tsabo Tavoc and wasn't just free, it might also not be a problem.
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If the format can't handle tuck effects working properly against commanders - something I still think was a bad choice, btw - then I can't see how Karakas can possibly be considered okay for the format. Even if tuck still worked, though, I would think allowing Karakas a very poor idea, since it can be used over and over much more easily than can tuck effects.
I think some very good points were made already, so I'll have a good deal of overlap. There is very little opportunity cost to running a basic Plains over this card, so there is almost no reason for every white deck to run the card. Right there should be a huge red flag by telling every white deck they need a $40 card. And as arrogantAxolotl said so eloquently, just having it in play is enough of a deterrent for many people to even cast their general, something which is a huge negative feeling in the format.
As for the unban side of things, I think there are two important factors here: firstly that there is a very valid fair use for the card. I can bounce my own creatures to save them from removal or a board wipe, and I can use it to reuse ETB effects (this also makes it less effective against a small number of opposing generals). Secondly, it is a card that rightly mages you a threat. I am not in favor of a general "git gud scrub" mentality to the format, but I do believe in teaching players how to improve with their threat assessment and running spot removal like Strip Mine, and this card does. (Yes I realize that it isn't the job of the RC to improve the players, nor should the ban list reflect that.)
If the format can't handle tuck effects working properly against commanders - something I still think was a bad choice, btw - then I can't see how Karakas can possibly be considered okay for the format. Even if tuck still worked, though, I would think it Karakas a very poor idea, since it can be used over and over much more easily than can tuck effects.
And this should be the end of the thread. There's nothing to discuss. If tuck was considered antithetical to the format, Karakas is exponentially worse because of it's extreme ease of use, non-existent investment cost, and that it can be used for free every turn.
I actually brought up tuck in my response originally before taking it out. I felt the big difference is that Karakas doesn't remove access to your general. So, once the land is gone (or if you have an EtB effect on your general like Prime Speaker Zegana) you can just cast your general again.
Now, it is possible that the repeated bounce is enough of an issue on its own (along with its efficiency and low opportunity cost), but I think it is different enough from tuck that we can discuss this card on its own rather than how similar it is to tuck.
I love Karakas and I own a copy that I played in my Captain Sisay deck specifically to combo with Mangara of Corondor and Myojin of Cleansing Fire and to save creatures from opponent's removal or pre-Wrath effect of my own. There are now a LOT more legendary creatures with ETB effects that I would consider running, but without Karakas they are basically too underpowered.
With regards to the banned list, my thoughts on it though are twofold;
Pro-Karakas
1) I don't think that Karakas would be anywhere near as game-altering as some people think; I think that its reputation is definitely overblown
2) I think that white could use the boost being a relatively weak color (some would say the weakest)
3) It would not be in every deck because people forget that Karakas has a white color-identity
4) Since the change to the tuck-rule, this would give some tables some anti-Commander protection.
Anti-Karakas
1) I completely understand that people get titchy when you mess with their commanders
2) There is no reason that each and every white deck won't run it since it is 'strictly better' than a Plains
3) The kinds of cards necessary to answer Karakas (Strip Mine, Dust Bowl, Tectonic Edge, etc.) are not necessarily the kinds of cards that most EDH playgroups like to encourage (although I counter this with the fact that you should be running some of these cards to answer other lands like Gaea's Cradle, Cabal Coffers, etc.)
4) Although the price has dropped significantly (thanks Eternal Masters), Karakas is still a $50+ card
So I know that I am seemingly one of the few people that don't think that Karakas would be anywhere near as bad as some people believe, but I honestly don't see the RC unbanning it.
If you need me to, I can list the various ways that not only can you turn a Karakas into an Enchantment, Artifact, or Creature but also how to get rid of it in those manners as well. Whether such ways you desire are by exiling it, destroying it en masse or singularly, "pick X, destroy/exile/sacrifice the rest" or even milling it. But I feel their is a sufficient amount of counterplay to a Karakas that I need not go on the myriad of ways that this card can be dealt with.
I actually brought up tuck in my response originally before taking it out. I felt the big difference is that Karakas doesn't remove access to your general. So, once the land is gone (or if you have an EtB effect on your general like Prime Speaker Zegana) you can just cast your general again.
That's like saying tuck doesn't remove access to your general because you can just draw it and cast it again. I have the same chance to draw a Strip Mine for a Karakas as I do to just naturally draw my tucked general. Yes, there are obviously differences between tuck and Karakas, but not so much that you can ignore the overwhelming similarities, or that fact that Karakas has a bunch of other problems to overcome as well.
There aren't many cards on the ban list I think absolutely need to be on there, but Karakas is one of them. There is absolutely no reason for it to be legal.
I actually brought up tuck in my response originally before taking it out. I felt the big difference is that Karakas doesn't remove access to your general. So, once the land is gone (or if you have an EtB effect on your general like Prime Speaker Zegana) you can just cast your general again.
That's like saying tuck doesn't remove access to your general because you can just draw it and cast it again. I have the same chance to draw a Strip Mine for a Karakas as I do to just naturally draw my tucked general. Yes, there are obviously differences between tuck and Karakas, but not so much that you can ignore the overwhelming similarities, or that fact that Karakas has a bunch of other problems to overcome as well.
There aren't many cards on the ban list I think absolutely need to be on there, but Karakas is one of them. There is absolutely no reason for it to be legal.
My argument for separating the arguments was specifically because you can't just be expected to draw into the general if it was tucked. That isn't at all reasonable but Karakas gives it back to your hand so you still have access to it so you could cast it again if you wanted or you found a way to get rid of the land. You are not losing access to it for the rest of the game (or a long time).
I know it becoems difficult to cast it with Karakas on the board, and I agree that it can't be reasonably expected that you get to your land hate. The part of my post you cut off shows I understand Karakas has problems on its own and repeated bounce it a problem. That isn't disputed. I was merely suggesting that that argument should be the forefront of why Karakas should remain on the banlist rather than "it is similar to tuck".
EDIT: To be clear, I am nost saying there aren't similarities and I certainly get where "draw into your general" and "draw into your land hate" become close to synonymous. I just feel that having access to your general (and getting it bounced) is different enough from not having access to it at all. There are generals that don't care about Karakas at all (Prime Speaker, Ulamog, Kozilek, Breya, Dragonloard Atarka, Uril the Miststalker etc.) that would care about being tucked.
Knowing that Rafiq are hurt just as badly by Karakas as tuck is good information but it does require the Karakas player to dvote that resource to solely keeping that general off the table.
Again, I feel the differences are enough that we should be arguing for or against it based on something other than "tuck isn't a thing; Karakas shouldn't be either". If I had to make a decision, I would lean towards leaving it on the ban list for reasons you and others have stated.
[card]Narset, Enlightened Master
Champion's Helm
Mask of Avacyn
Ring of Evos Isle
Swiftfoot Boots
Void Grafter
Uril, the Miststalker
Simic Charm
Privileged Position
Sigarda, Heron's Grace
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Domri Rade
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Silumgar, the Drifting Death
Geist of Saint Traft
Alpha Authority
Archetype of Endurance
Asceticism
Blossoming Defense
Heroic Intervention
Oak Street Innkeeper
Ranger's Guile
Sheltering Word
Thrun, the Last Troll
Woodcutter's Gift
Zuo Ci, the Mocking Sage
Cloudform
Elgaud Shieldmate
Glint
Mistfire Weaver
Mizzium Skin
Padeem, Consul of Innovation
Rattlechains
Tromokratis
Leonin Abunas[/card]
[card]Aboshan's Desire
Aerie Mystics
Alexi's Cloak
Aspect of the Mongoose
Cloak and Dagger
Clout of the Dominus
Crystaline Sliver
Diplomatic Immunity
Favorable Destiny
Fountain Watch
General's Kabuto
Ghosthelm Courier
Greater Auramancy
Hanna's Custody
Hisoka's Guard
Indomitable Archangel
Kashi-Tribe Elite
Kodama of the North Tree
Lightning Greaves
Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
Mystic Veil
Neurok Stealthsuit
Pemmin's Aura
Plaxmanta
Protective Bubble
Relic Ward
Robe of Mirrors
Scion of Oona
Shell Skulkin
Soratami Rainshaper
Spectral Cloak
Sterling Grove
Stonewood Invocation
Spiritual Asylum
Steely Resolve
Sylvan Safekeeper
Tortoise Formation
Veil of Secrecy
Whispersilk Cloak
Zephid's Embrace[/card]
Some choices might seem odd. I accounted for the possibility if the Commander is or somehow became an artifact or enchantment in addition to whatever else it had been to begin with. Though yes, this is what I found that could protect your Commander from being bounced back by a Karakas and the myriad ways to do so should be sufficient as a counterpoint.
My major problem is that you can get rid of it, as everything in the game, if it becomes an issue, people complain about LD but it gives answers to problems at times. However, on the other hand it is in white, which can get permanents back to the field relatively easily so it would be harder and harder to remove it the second or third times. Sylvan Primordial gets rid of it...but that leads toward a discussion in another thread.
My major problem is that you can get rid of it, as everything in the game, if it becomes an issue, people complain about LD but it gives answers to problems at times. However, on the other hand it is in white, which can get permanents back to the field relatively easily so it would be harder and harder to remove it the second or third times. Sylvan Primordial gets rid of it...but that leads toward a discussion in another thread.
May I refer you to My Second Reason? It has a sufficient list of cards that can deal with it without destroying it once.
I already looked at it, and thanks for putting in that effort btw. Lots of good removal that I can use for other applications as well. But it still, to me, is fine because you can readily answer it, as you have referred to with many, many sources.
I have never played with it so I can't say its power-level, but I do know that if Karakas was unbanned I'd jam it right into every deck I have that runs W because most people I know never want to dedicate multiple spell-slots to land destruction.
Thank you for checking and correcting. I have fixed what you advised was wrong. Indeed some of require hoop-jumping but have applications outside of the discussion of Karakas.
My major problem is that you can get rid of it, as everything in the game, if it becomes an issue, people complain about LD but it gives answers to problems at times. However, on the other hand it is in white, which can get permanents back to the field relatively easily so it would be harder and harder to remove it the second or third times. Sylvan Primordial gets rid of it...but that leads toward a discussion in another thread.
May I refer you to My Second Reason? It has a sufficient list of cards that can deal with it without destroying it once.
Most of your suggestions are simply ridiculous. Sorry, but Glint isn't even close to being a reasonable response, neither is "Run a commander with shroud or hexproof". More than half of what you suggested is padding, that is garbage that has no business being ran but which you included to bolster a bad point. Worse, you included cards that don't even do anything to Karakas. Commandeer? Did you read the card? Sowing Salt? If you are running that card to deal with Karakas, the Karakas player has already won the battle by forcing you to run hot garbage. Telim'Tor's Edict? Why would you want to get rid of Karakas when you obviously now control it?
Giving a bunch of terrible suggestions isn't sufficient as a counterpoint. You'd have been better served sticking to the much smaller subset of suggestions that are realistic, because then we'd be discussing the merits of having to rely on drawing Vindicate rather than laughing at your for suggesting Glint as a way to pad your argument.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
My major problem is that you can get rid of it, as everything in the game, if it becomes an issue, people complain about LD but it gives answers to problems at times. However, on the other hand it is in white, which can get permanents back to the field relatively easily so it would be harder and harder to remove it the second or third times. Sylvan Primordial gets rid of it...but that leads toward a discussion in another thread.
May I refer you to My Second Reason? It has a sufficient list of cards that can deal with it without destroying it once.
Most of your suggestions are simply ridiculous. Sorry, but Glint isn't even close to being a reasonable response,
I covered my basis by adding ALL answers of:
A) Get rid of.
B) Take control of.
C) Not function.
D) Prevent from being used against you.
I include Glint alongside Swiftfoot Boots because I need to emphasis a point. That point is the actual sea worth of answers. Are all answers of equal balance? No. That is why certain cards are higher on a tier list than others.
neither is "Run a commander with shroud or hexproof".
That is an answer. By having a commander with Hexproof or Shroud, you negate the effectiveness of a Karakas that would be used against you.
More than half of what you suggested is padding, that is garbage that has no business being ran but which you included to bolster a bad point.
My bad point? Oh you mean the various answers given to a on a silver platter that are ALL valid.
Worse, you included cards that don't even do anything to Karakas. Commandeer?
Fixed it already.
Did you read the card? Sowing Salt? If you are running that card to deal with Karakas, the Karakas player has already won the battle by forcing you to run hot garbage.
Yesterday's garbage is today's treasure when pertaining to the threat of Karakas.
Telim'Tor's Edict? Why would you want to get rid of Karakas when you obviously now control it?
Because the possibility exists that the control of Karakas is not permanent, so you want to negate returning it your opponent. Like you would with a Humble Defector that you sacrifice in response to his activated ability.
Giving a bunch of terrible suggestions isn't sufficient as a counterpoint. You'd have been better served sticking to the much smaller subset of suggestions that are realistic, because then we'd be discussing the merits of having to rely on drawing Vindicate rather than laughing at your for suggesting Glint as a way to pad your argument.
Are you frankly done with trying to insult me and the work I actually put into making an extensive list of answers? Or are you going to continue with this charade of counterpoints veiled as ignorant mockery? For honestly is this what passes as civil discussion within the rules discussion boards? As you have done nothing of constructive work to actually backup any claims why Karakas should or shouldn't be banned.
I was hesitant against it at first but Amisi_Kepi opened my eyes to the possible answers I had and what generals it would benefit, so I actually side with unbanning Karakas.
@Onering: Dude I really expected better of you. That was some of the most inflammatory stuff I seen in the CRD board. Also her lists aren't that you are "forced" to use those cards, they are "options". She included them to show what answers a given player has. You don't want to use some of those cards? Cool. Nobody is twisting your arm to do so. She probably assumed you would have made a logical judgement and decided for yourself what cards you would use. Its like getting mad at a library for carrying all the books there.
@Sephon19: Well there is always The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale that is available to all players in Commander right now and it costs about 700-$1000.
EDIT: Really with, Amisi_Kepi's lists as a factor to this discussion, the real question is what people are uncomfortable with seeing it unbanned. As there is no denying it. Its a land that is readily available to be dealt with by any color and even decks without color. The discussion with Coalition Victory hinged around the fact that it either won the game on the spot or fizzled. Karakas does not win on the spot. And a person's comfort is really a selfish reason to keep it banned. You don't like it? Well why don't we also ban all forms of counterspells because I am uncomfortable with those cards? Why is one person's comfort so much more important than another person's?
In favor of unbanning it. As a good point also is if its price spikes up, not everyone has access to it. If it reaches a $100-200 that is the equivalent of picking up a Gaea's Cradle. Which means in casual play its not as likely to show up as not everyone is willing to spend $100 or more for a single card for their deck. Which also balances it out.
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Peasant: Storm (UR) Commander:Hazezon Tamar (GRW), Arjun, the Shifting Flame (UR), [Waiting on Amonkhet] Tiny Leader: [Waiting on Amonkhet] Peasant Dragon: [Waiting on Amonkhet] Modern: Orzhova Spirits (WB) Legacy: Burn (R) Vintage: Bazaar Dredge (B)
I was hesitant against it at first but Amisi_Kepi opened my eyes to the possible answers I had and what generals it would benefit, so I actually side with unbanning Karakas.
@Onering: Dude I really expected better of you. That was some of the most inflammatory stuff I seen in the CRD board. Also her lists aren't that you are "forced" to use those cards, they are "options". She included them to show what answers a given player has. You don't want to use some of those cards? Cool. Nobody is twisting your arm to do so. She probably assumed you would have made a logical judgement and decided for yourself what cards you would use. Its like getting mad at a library for carrying all the books there.
@Sephon19: Well there is always The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale that is available to all players in Commander right now and it costs about 700-$1000.
She put a lot of garbage in to try to make the argument that there is a sea of answers, and thus Karakas is OK. In reality, there are a handful of realistic answers. You can make an argument that such is enough, but trying to stick in every corner case and laughable suggestion to push a false narrative that we're swimming in solutions to the card is a dishonest argument. Her whole argument was "Here's a huge list". When another poster made a reasonable counterpoint, she just pointed him back at her list of mostly bad answers.
Sorry if I wasn't respectful enough, but I really don't respect the point of someone who doesn't bother to read half of her suggestions and thinks quantity is a substitute for quality. Yes, including garbage like Glint in the list is a joke, not a serious point. If any logical judgement would rule out half of her suggestions, why even make them? Oh yes, to do exactly as she did and try to use the volume of her suggestions to argue that Karakas wouldn't be problematic while making no attempt to argue that the answers that people would actually run outside of the jankiest builds would be sufficient to deal with Karakas. If she wants to make that argument, I'll hear her out, but throwing every possible answer no matter how bad and considering it an argument is as insipid as saying Prime Time and Prophet would be fine to unban because you could run Daring Demolition.
If she really thinks that all her suggestions are valid, then she simply doesn't know what she's talking about. If she's instead trying to pad her argument, she's being disingenuous. Either way, so far all that she has said is that there are a bunch of potential answers so Karakas wouldn't be a problem. My counterpoint was that many of her suggestions were terrible and you can't use bad cards that don't see any play (and shouldn't) as examples of why what would certainly be an ubiquitous inclusion, so she should focus on arguing why the realistic options are enough to keep it in check. Rather than do that, she doubled down. Arguing that Sowing Salt could be good in a Karakas environment? That's absurd. If Karakas has warped the meta to the degree that a 4 mana spell that takes out a single nonbasic land is anything close to a reasonable inclusion in a deck, that's an argument for banning Karakas.
Going through her lists, I'd say, as a generous estimate, that only about a quarter of the suggestions are anywhere near reasonable, and I'm counting things like Rootgrapple in that.
Are you frankly done with trying to insult me and the work I actually put into making an extensive list of answers? Or are you going to continue with this charade of counterpoints veiled as ignorant mockery? For honestly is this what passes as civil discussion within the rules discussion boards? As you have done nothing of constructive work to actually backup any claims why Karakas should or shouldn't be banned.
I stick by my arguments. I don't care how much work you went into compiling the list, you should have saved your time and left off 75% of it.
Now, for the remaining 25%, I'm not sure if that would be enough to deal with Karakas, but I'd be willing to give it a try. I have concerns that as much of that is LD that is only worth running if you plan to make LD a main strategy of your deck (not as a random answer or as part of your mana base like Strip Mine), if Karakas got to be as prevalent as I believe it would (that is, you need to expect to see it if you are playing against a white deck), then players would be running more LD spells and thus more decks dedicated at least in part to LD. Its very likely to skew the format, especially in more casual groups in a way that I don't believe would be healthy for the format. At competitive, combo heavy tables it wouldn't be a problem, but at 75% or less tables saying "run LD or a hexproof Commander or you don't get to play your commander" is a bad direction for the format. Again, I'd be willing to give it a test to see, but I'd keep an eye on it as something that might have to be put right back on the list like Wizards did with GGT in modern. And I certainly wouldn't look at garbage as an excuse to say "see, its fine" no more than I would look at jank answers to justify unbanning Prophet of Kruphix.
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
In favor of unbanning it. As a good point also is if its price spikes up, not everyone has access to it. If it reaches a $100-200 that is the equivalent of picking up a Gaea's Cradle. Which means in casual play its not as likely to show up as not everyone is willing to spend $100 or more for a single card for their deck. Which also balances it out.
Remember though, this would be a $100+ dollar card that every white deck should be running. The card would be ubiquitous and carry a large price tag. Those two should not coincide.
Regarding Onering's comment on the lists, he's right. If the meta has become so warped that you are running subpar cards to deal with Karakas, that should be a warning sign about the card.
It also doesn't seem overly oppressive. In fact, in a "casual" meta it could be seen as a safety valve of sorts to fight against faster "combo" generals like Animar, Soul of Elements that blank white's spot removal already. If there is a player threatening to kill a player on turn 4 with Omnath, Locus of Mana Karakas can help stop it. And, with 3 other players, it is unlikely the game will revolve around that one land the white player has.
The main issue I see with it is, being a land, it requires specific cards to hate out so people can run their generals. Which means an increase in Strip Mine effects in case an opponent is running Karakas. Not sure if that would cause an increase in also running Crucible of Worlds but it is worth noting.
I personally would love to see it legal as it gives my Darien deck even more options against faster Generals and it is a land that I personally feel gives an efficient, colorless (though only played in white decks) answer to overly oppressive generals. But, repeatedly being able to bounce one player's general over and over may be too powerful.
Oriss, Samite Guardian*
- Iona, Shield of Emeria
- Mangara of Corondor
- Hixus, Prison Warden
- General Tazri
- Tivadar of Thorn
- Archangel Avacyn
- Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder
- Dragonlord Ojutai
- Ghost Council of Orzhova
- Kangee, Aerie Keeper
- Lavinia of the Tenth
- Linvala, the Preserver
- Munda, Ambush Leader
- Mikaeus, the Lunarch
- Myojin of Cleansing Fire
- Queen Marchesa
- Rasputin Dreamweaver
- Saskia the Unyielding
- Sharuum the Hegemon
- Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
* - You can actually make use of her Grandeur ability in Commander at the moment but that is with just Emeria Shepherd and a copy effect like say a Mirrorpool. With Karakas, the possibility of Mirror Gallery, Emeria, the Sky Ruin, Enduring Renewal and more becomes much more fruitful with her.When someone has a Karakas in play, their opponents can't really play their commanders anymore. Sure, there are a few exceptions, but generally, Karakas is too oppressive. That's a big problem because Karakas costs nothing to play and the Commander format highly encourages players to build their decks around their commanders. It's what helps make Commander distinct. When someone takes that element away from their opponents as early as turn 1, that can suck a lot of fun out of the game. Some decks just rely on their commanders to operate, and players don't find games fun when they're unable to even participate because someone locked them out for little to no cost. The mere threat of bouncing a legend each turn is enough of a deterrent to stop opponents from ever effectively casting their format's namesake.
I also believe Karakas would be a ubiquitous card if it were unbanned. The recent Eternal Masters printing made the card a lot more accessible, and since it's basically a strictly better Plains, players have little reason not to play the card. It's extremely powerful, and players sacrifice nothing to run it. I imagine the only reasons players wouldn't play Karakas is because they either feel uncomfortable subjecting their opponents to something so oppressive, because it's too expensive and they can't afford the card, or because they aren't playing white. That's not a good sign.
Karakas's one saving grace is that it's modular enough to be used in creative ways. If players don't want to, they don't have to use Karakas oppressively. Players can use Karakas as a way to give their own commanders psuedo-shroud or use Karakas as a value engine by bouncing their commanders over and over, making use of some ETB effect repeatedly. With that said, I would not expect the vast majority of players to use Karakas this way. Maybe some folks would play the card as a Maze of Ith for enemy Commanders, but I imagine most just using it to keep one player off of their commander permanently because the cost to do so is so low and it's oppressively powerful. If Karakas could only target legendary creatures its owner controlled, it likely wouldn't be a problem at all. Similarly, if Karakas actually cost something to play like Tsabo Tavoc and wasn't just free, it might also not be a problem.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
As for the unban side of things, I think there are two important factors here: firstly that there is a very valid fair use for the card. I can bounce my own creatures to save them from removal or a board wipe, and I can use it to reuse ETB effects (this also makes it less effective against a small number of opposing generals). Secondly, it is a card that rightly mages you a threat. I am not in favor of a general "git gud scrub" mentality to the format, but I do believe in teaching players how to improve with their threat assessment and running spot removal like Strip Mine, and this card does. (Yes I realize that it isn't the job of the RC to improve the players, nor should the ban list reflect that.)
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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Now, it is possible that the repeated bounce is enough of an issue on its own (along with its efficiency and low opportunity cost), but I think it is different enough from tuck that we can discuss this card on its own rather than how similar it is to tuck.
With regards to the banned list, my thoughts on it though are twofold;
Pro-Karakas
1) I don't think that Karakas would be anywhere near as game-altering as some people think; I think that its reputation is definitely overblown
2) I think that white could use the boost being a relatively weak color (some would say the weakest)
3) It would not be in every deck because people forget that Karakas has a white color-identity
4) Since the change to the tuck-rule, this would give some tables some anti-Commander protection.
Anti-Karakas
1) I completely understand that people get titchy when you mess with their commanders
2) There is no reason that each and every white deck won't run it since it is 'strictly better' than a Plains
3) The kinds of cards necessary to answer Karakas (Strip Mine, Dust Bowl, Tectonic Edge, etc.) are not necessarily the kinds of cards that most EDH playgroups like to encourage (although I counter this with the fact that you should be running some of these cards to answer other lands like Gaea's Cradle, Cabal Coffers, etc.)
4) Although the price has dropped significantly (thanks Eternal Masters), Karakas is still a $50+ card
So I know that I am seemingly one of the few people that don't think that Karakas would be anywhere near as bad as some people believe, but I honestly don't see the RC unbanning it.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
If you need me to, I can list the various ways that not only can you turn a Karakas into an Enchantment, Artifact, or Creature but also how to get rid of it in those manners as well. Whether such ways you desire are by exiling it, destroying it en masse or singularly, "pick X, destroy/exile/sacrifice the rest" or even milling it. But I feel their is a sufficient amount of counterplay to a Karakas that I need not go on the myriad of ways that this card can be dealt with.
There aren't many cards on the ban list I think absolutely need to be on there, but Karakas is one of them. There is absolutely no reason for it to be legal.
I know it becoems difficult to cast it with Karakas on the board, and I agree that it can't be reasonably expected that you get to your land hate. The part of my post you cut off shows I understand Karakas has problems on its own and repeated bounce it a problem. That isn't disputed. I was merely suggesting that that argument should be the forefront of why Karakas should remain on the banlist rather than "it is similar to tuck".
EDIT: To be clear, I am nost saying there aren't similarities and I certainly get where "draw into your general" and "draw into your land hate" become close to synonymous. I just feel that having access to your general (and getting it bounced) is different enough from not having access to it at all. There are generals that don't care about Karakas at all (Prime Speaker, Ulamog, Kozilek, Breya, Dragonloard Atarka, Uril the Miststalker etc.) that would care about being tucked.
Knowing that Rafiq are hurt just as badly by Karakas as tuck is good information but it does require the Karakas player to dvote that resource to solely keeping that general off the table.
Again, I feel the differences are enough that we should be arguing for or against it based on something other than "tuck isn't a thing; Karakas shouldn't be either". If I had to make a decision, I would lean towards leaving it on the ban list for reasons you and others have stated.
My second reason
Champion's Helm
Mask of Avacyn
Ring of Evos Isle
Swiftfoot Boots
Void Grafter
Uril, the Miststalker
Simic Charm
Privileged Position
Sigarda, Heron's Grace
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Domri Rade
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Silumgar, the Drifting Death
Geist of Saint Traft
Alpha Authority
Archetype of Endurance
Asceticism
Blossoming Defense
Heroic Intervention
Oak Street Innkeeper
Ranger's Guile
Sheltering Word
Thrun, the Last Troll
Woodcutter's Gift
Zuo Ci, the Mocking Sage
Cloudform
Elgaud Shieldmate
Glint
Mistfire Weaver
Mizzium Skin
Padeem, Consul of Innovation
Rattlechains
Tromokratis
Leonin Abunas[/card]
Aerie Mystics
Alexi's Cloak
Aspect of the Mongoose
Cloak and Dagger
Clout of the Dominus
Crystaline Sliver
Diplomatic Immunity
Favorable Destiny
Fountain Watch
General's Kabuto
Ghosthelm Courier
Greater Auramancy
Hanna's Custody
Hisoka's Guard
Indomitable Archangel
Kashi-Tribe Elite
Kodama of the North Tree
Lightning Greaves
Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
Mystic Veil
Neurok Stealthsuit
Pemmin's Aura
Plaxmanta
Protective Bubble
Relic Ward
Robe of Mirrors
Scion of Oona
Shell Skulkin
Soratami Rainshaper
Spectral Cloak
Sterling Grove
Stonewood Invocation
Spiritual Asylum
Steely Resolve
Sylvan Safekeeper
Tortoise Formation
Veil of Secrecy
Whispersilk Cloak
Zephid's Embrace[/card]
Some choices might seem odd. I accounted for the possibility if the Commander is or somehow became an artifact or enchantment in addition to whatever else it had been to begin with. Though yes, this is what I found that could protect your Commander from being bounced back by a Karakas and the myriad ways to do so should be sufficient as a counterpoint.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
May I refer you to My Second Reason? It has a sufficient list of cards that can deal with it without destroying it once.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
Thank you for checking and correcting. I have fixed what you advised was wrong. Indeed some of require hoop-jumping but have applications outside of the discussion of Karakas.
Most of your suggestions are simply ridiculous. Sorry, but Glint isn't even close to being a reasonable response, neither is "Run a commander with shroud or hexproof". More than half of what you suggested is padding, that is garbage that has no business being ran but which you included to bolster a bad point. Worse, you included cards that don't even do anything to Karakas. Commandeer? Did you read the card? Sowing Salt? If you are running that card to deal with Karakas, the Karakas player has already won the battle by forcing you to run hot garbage. Telim'Tor's Edict? Why would you want to get rid of Karakas when you obviously now control it?
Giving a bunch of terrible suggestions isn't sufficient as a counterpoint. You'd have been better served sticking to the much smaller subset of suggestions that are realistic, because then we'd be discussing the merits of having to rely on drawing Vindicate rather than laughing at your for suggesting Glint as a way to pad your argument.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
And it's a $50 card as banned right?
If so, think of how expensive it would be if unbanned.
I covered my basis by adding ALL answers of:
A) Get rid of.
B) Take control of.
C) Not function.
D) Prevent from being used against you.
I include Glint alongside Swiftfoot Boots because I need to emphasis a point. That point is the actual sea worth of answers. Are all answers of equal balance? No. That is why certain cards are higher on a tier list than others.
That is an answer. By having a commander with Hexproof or Shroud, you negate the effectiveness of a Karakas that would be used against you.
My bad point? Oh you mean the various answers given to a on a silver platter that are ALL valid.
Fixed it already.
Yesterday's garbage is today's treasure when pertaining to the threat of Karakas.
Because the possibility exists that the control of Karakas is not permanent, so you want to negate returning it your opponent. Like you would with a Humble Defector that you sacrifice in response to his activated ability.
Are you frankly done with trying to insult me and the work I actually put into making an extensive list of answers? Or are you going to continue with this charade of counterpoints veiled as ignorant mockery? For honestly is this what passes as civil discussion within the rules discussion boards? As you have done nothing of constructive work to actually backup any claims why Karakas should or shouldn't be banned.
Near mint copies from Eternal Masters are actually going for about $33.00 on TCGPlayer, but if it were unbanned, it would definitely spike in price.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
@Onering: Dude I really expected better of you. That was some of the most inflammatory stuff I seen in the CRD board. Also her lists aren't that you are "forced" to use those cards, they are "options". She included them to show what answers a given player has. You don't want to use some of those cards? Cool. Nobody is twisting your arm to do so. She probably assumed you would have made a logical judgement and decided for yourself what cards you would use. Its like getting mad at a library for carrying all the books there.
@Sephon19: Well there is always The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale that is available to all players in Commander right now and it costs about 700-$1000.
EDIT: Really with, Amisi_Kepi's lists as a factor to this discussion, the real question is what people are uncomfortable with seeing it unbanned. As there is no denying it. Its a land that is readily available to be dealt with by any color and even decks without color. The discussion with Coalition Victory hinged around the fact that it either won the game on the spot or fizzled. Karakas does not win on the spot. And a person's comfort is really a selfish reason to keep it banned. You don't like it? Well why don't we also ban all forms of counterspells because I am uncomfortable with those cards? Why is one person's comfort so much more important than another person's?
Commander: Hazezon Tamar (GRW), Arjun, the Shifting Flame (UR), [Waiting on Amonkhet]
Tiny Leader: [Waiting on Amonkhet]
Peasant Dragon: [Waiting on Amonkhet]
Modern: Orzhova Spirits (WB)
Legacy: Burn (R)
Vintage: Bazaar Dredge (B)
She put a lot of garbage in to try to make the argument that there is a sea of answers, and thus Karakas is OK. In reality, there are a handful of realistic answers. You can make an argument that such is enough, but trying to stick in every corner case and laughable suggestion to push a false narrative that we're swimming in solutions to the card is a dishonest argument. Her whole argument was "Here's a huge list". When another poster made a reasonable counterpoint, she just pointed him back at her list of mostly bad answers.
Sorry if I wasn't respectful enough, but I really don't respect the point of someone who doesn't bother to read half of her suggestions and thinks quantity is a substitute for quality. Yes, including garbage like Glint in the list is a joke, not a serious point. If any logical judgement would rule out half of her suggestions, why even make them? Oh yes, to do exactly as she did and try to use the volume of her suggestions to argue that Karakas wouldn't be problematic while making no attempt to argue that the answers that people would actually run outside of the jankiest builds would be sufficient to deal with Karakas. If she wants to make that argument, I'll hear her out, but throwing every possible answer no matter how bad and considering it an argument is as insipid as saying Prime Time and Prophet would be fine to unban because you could run Daring Demolition.
If she really thinks that all her suggestions are valid, then she simply doesn't know what she's talking about. If she's instead trying to pad her argument, she's being disingenuous. Either way, so far all that she has said is that there are a bunch of potential answers so Karakas wouldn't be a problem. My counterpoint was that many of her suggestions were terrible and you can't use bad cards that don't see any play (and shouldn't) as examples of why what would certainly be an ubiquitous inclusion, so she should focus on arguing why the realistic options are enough to keep it in check. Rather than do that, she doubled down. Arguing that Sowing Salt could be good in a Karakas environment? That's absurd. If Karakas has warped the meta to the degree that a 4 mana spell that takes out a single nonbasic land is anything close to a reasonable inclusion in a deck, that's an argument for banning Karakas.
Going through her lists, I'd say, as a generous estimate, that only about a quarter of the suggestions are anywhere near reasonable, and I'm counting things like Rootgrapple in that.
I stick by my arguments. I don't care how much work you went into compiling the list, you should have saved your time and left off 75% of it.
Now, for the remaining 25%, I'm not sure if that would be enough to deal with Karakas, but I'd be willing to give it a try. I have concerns that as much of that is LD that is only worth running if you plan to make LD a main strategy of your deck (not as a random answer or as part of your mana base like Strip Mine), if Karakas got to be as prevalent as I believe it would (that is, you need to expect to see it if you are playing against a white deck), then players would be running more LD spells and thus more decks dedicated at least in part to LD. Its very likely to skew the format, especially in more casual groups in a way that I don't believe would be healthy for the format. At competitive, combo heavy tables it wouldn't be a problem, but at 75% or less tables saying "run LD or a hexproof Commander or you don't get to play your commander" is a bad direction for the format. Again, I'd be willing to give it a test to see, but I'd keep an eye on it as something that might have to be put right back on the list like Wizards did with GGT in modern. And I certainly wouldn't look at garbage as an excuse to say "see, its fine" no more than I would look at jank answers to justify unbanning Prophet of Kruphix.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Remember though, this would be a $100+ dollar card that every white deck should be running. The card would be ubiquitous and carry a large price tag. Those two should not coincide.
Regarding Onering's comment on the lists, he's right. If the meta has become so warped that you are running subpar cards to deal with Karakas, that should be a warning sign about the card.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg