As always, I'm compelled to say that what follows is by no means anything that the RC is considering or has discussed. It's a clever idea I gleaned from a Twitter follower and would like to see how smart people like yourselves would punch holes in it:
"During a player's draw step, if that player controls fewer lands than any other player, they may pay two life to search their library for a basic land card and put it into their hand instead of drawing their card for the turn."
That wording is off the top of my head, but you get the idea--it's to replace your normal card draw (and only that one) with paying two life and get a basic instead. How could this be abused?
Certainly not a "break" but there are definitelysomedecks that want this rule way, way more than others do. That's not even accounting for decks with more colors getting significantly more out of it than colorless or monocolor decks, which can have a hard enough time already in certain senses.
I understand the intention but the end result will likely still benefit the decks that can draw the most and will put decks who can't behind having to use draws to keep up land wise.
Also knowing that I could always gets lands would probably impact how many I put in decks.
Also knowing that I could always gets lands would probably impact how many I put in decks.
I think this is the way it would impact games, people would skimp lands like they did when Partial Paris was a thing. Also less fixing is needed when your 3 color deck is really 2 color and a splash.
Very low CMC Commanders get a boost, especially if they ramp or draw cards.
I don't think you can "break" the rule as your original post posits. I think it leads to some bad deck design and bad games.
This has been a house rule with many people I play with : if you don't play a land for 3 turns you can skip your draw and get a basic.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
The first things that come to mind are how I could potentially break parity with Strionic Resonator and Stranglehold. Assuming the rule was worded in a manner to bypass other card interactions, then I agree with Taleran and MRHblue that it would encourage lazy deck-building habits. It would also encourage playing blue and black for the card draw, Scroll Rack and Sensei's Diving Top effects, and add excess time to games with constant tutoring and shuffling.
It's not something I would be interested in pursuing, I'd rather help players build better decks to avoid manascrew.
Wait. I'm confused. What's the point of the "if that player controls fewer lands than any other player" line? Like, what is that part of the rule specifically trying to accomplish here? Is it trying to punish the player furthest ahead on lands? If so, why? I mean, for one, the player with the most lands is probably the least likely to want to use this ability anyway. Why take away an option they might not even care about? For two, sometimes the player with the most lands isn't the player furthest ahead on mana. That honor may belong to the player ramping with elves and rocks. What's the point in denying a player the ability to use this rule if they aren't necessarily the furthest ahead AND if they might not care anyway? I don't get it.
Something no one has mentioned thus far is that one of the consequences of this rule is that it discourages players from going first. If you're the player that takes the first turn of the game, you can't use this ability since, barring Gemstone Caverns, everyone will have the same number of lands in play at the start of the game (zero). From that point on though, provided players don't stumble and miss their land drops, everyone except player 1 will basically be able to use this ability all the time, at least until someone plays a Rampant Growth or something. And that first player might just get stuck. If players just play one land each turn as they normally would, the player that went first won't ever get to use this effect unless something unusual happens, like if they happen to miss a land drop themselves. Is that the intended purpose here? To usually punish the player going first?
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Going first might have a downside which currently mostly doesn't have currently (Gemstone Caverns / Land Tax being kind of the exceptions). Going first with this rule though means you can't activate this unless an opponent ramps or you miss a land drop.
I would test running less lands and less non basics. If I were to start testing this rule in effect I would start out running low 20s to low 30s land instead of usually being in the high 30s land. Assuming I did this, I would also push to not be first if winning the die roll likely assuming it was going to work at all.
Karoo lands might be better with this system. I would definitely test them assuming you need to have less lands than an opponent.
Honestly my concerns with this concept right now are questioning how relivant it is to keep the person with the most lands from doing this. I just wonder if there is too much of a negative in going first and not being able to do this unless someone ramps or until after you miss a land drop. My other concern would be the amount of time this might add to a game given in a lot of cases heavy tutoring is extremely annoying.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Actually, if anything you should take a page from the Commander precon design and do a make it two lands more than you. That way you have to be legitimacy behind and not sandbagging.
Actually, if anything you should take a page from the Commander precon design and do a make it two lands more than you. That way you have to be legitimacy behind and not sandbagging.
Being landstuck is pretty feel bad, but rewarding lazy deck building, bad luck, and not even necessarily helping the person who is the furthest behind seems pretty terrible.
I personally would be against it anyways, but if it was something like:
“At the beginning of your upkeep, if each opppnent controls more lands than you, you may pay 2 life. If you do, search your library for a basic land card, reveal it and put it in your hand. Skip your draw step. You may only use this ability once per game.”
Actually, if anything you should take a page from the Commander precon design and do a make it two lands more than you. That way you have to be legitimacy behind and not sandbagging.
Good idea. It also stops players 2-4 from all using the ability on turn one just to snag an extra land before they drop their first.
Why? Panglacial Wurm requires seven mana. So, you would have to be running it, have access to seven mana, and be behind in lands before you could even consider paying the two life to get it. I find it more likely that your green deck is already running Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Farhaven Elf, Wood Elves, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Rampant Growth, etc. to infinity and can already ramp into the 5GG and then snag Wurm while getting another land even without this rule.
The biggest issue is that lean mana decks can run <20 lands and just count on this to get them back into it, instead of needing to run closer to 30.
I've tried and tried to think about how we could just allow Command Tower to live in the command zone for example but any sort of free land just runs roughshod over deckbuilding, especially on the edges of the spectrum. Even with 2 lands behind as the rule, decks that only need small amounts of land will be able to adjust their land counts significantly (and gain a large advantage).
It's frustrating but I cannot think of a way to fix mana screw without benefitting spikier decks too much.
Decks that play a ton of non-land ramp also benefit, which is a big problem.
Even fiddling with the mulligan rules much (e.g. allowing another free mull if your hand is <=1 land) will do the same thing.
It's possible some kind of rider can be placed for "If your available mana production is less than" but that becomes quite fuzzy--where does Grim Monolith factor, and how does a Voltaic Key or Unwinding Clock factor in? It'd create a lot of annoying corner cases.
Nah thought it was a free cast for whatever reason.
On one hand, that's an easy thing to misread on cards like this, but on the other, Panglacial Wurm card would be banned in every format if that were true.
The biggest issue is that lean mana decks can run <20 lands and just count on this to get them back into it, instead of needing to run closer to 30.
I've tried and tried to think about how we could just allow Command Tower to live in the command zone for example but any sort of free land just runs roughshod over deckbuilding, especially on the edges of the spectrum. Even with 2 lands behind as the rule, decks that only need small amounts of land will be able to adjust their land counts significantly (and gain a large advantage).
It's frustrating but I cannot think of a way to fix mana screw without benefitting spikier decks too much.
Decks that play a ton of non-land ramp also benefit, which is a big problem.
Even fiddling with the mulligan rules much (e.g. allowing another free mull if your hand is <=1 land) will do the same thing.
It's possible some kind of rider can be placed for "If your available mana production is less than" but that becomes quite fuzzy--where does Grim Monolith factor, and how does a Voltaic Key or Unwinding Clock factor in? It'd create a lot of annoying corner cases.
I would much rather just see a rule where you could have a one card sideboard with Command Tower in it, and as a replacement effect for one of your draw for turns you could exile a card from your hand to put it into your hand from your sideboard. Or Command Zone, but with a once per game clause.
(after tons of noodling on this over the years) I think in order for the command tower rule to work the exile needs to be random, to punish greedy keeps. or alternatively reveal and someone chooses one.
Quote from from="void_nothing »" url="/forums/the-game/commander-edh/commander-rules-discussion-forum/805911-challenge-break-this-rule?comment=16"On one hand, that"s an easy thing to misread on cards like this, but on the other, [card »
Panglacial Wurm[/card] card would be banned in every format if that were true.
Kek, yeah. Someone mentioned the card at the top of the thread and it just stuck with me.
I think the only way you might be able to fix the mana screw in this way would be:
“At the beginning of your upkeep, if another player controls two or more lands than you, you may exile a card from your hand.
If you do, search your library for a basic land and put it into your hand. Skip your draw step.”
That way it doesn’t reward the players who build with 20ish lands to abuse the rule and presents card disadvantage in exchange for the lands
...almost like mulliganing after the mulligan stage... but with one card
I run 10 basics in my deck and am pretty much guaranteed to hit all 10 land drops if I want, while all the rest of my draws are guaranteed gas? Whereas someone running a more standard 35-40 lands has something like a 40% chance of dead draw? How can they hope to compete against me on card quality?
Hell, I'd rebuild General Tazri, run like 7 basics in it and no other lands and all I really need is a Swamp, a Forest and an Island in order to go utterly ham. It opens up a lot more slots for drawpower/tutors/counters. Then add the various broken manarocks to it, get your Food Chain and the creatures that go infinite with and you're in the money.
While this rulechange would do some things for lower tier tables, more competitive players can easily abuse this rule simply by warping their deckbuilding. It would probably benefit Blue decks the most which also isn't where you'd want to be, methinks. If at least you make the rule "If you controll less lands than ALL your opponents", then at least competitive games become a game of not blinking first. I do realize cEDH is not the target for this rule, but yeah.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Hell, I'd rebuild General Tazri, run like 7 basics in it and no other lands and all I really need is a Swamp, a Forest and an Island in order to go utterly ham. It opens up a lot more slots for drawpower/tutors/counters. Then add the various broken manarocks to it, get your Food Chain and the creatures that go infinite with and you're in the money.
While this rulechange would do some things for lower tier tables, more competitive players can easily abuse this rule simply by warping their deckbuilding. It would probably benefit Blue decks the most which also isn't where you'd want to be, methinks. If at least you make the rule "If you controll less lands than ALL your opponents", then at least competitive games become a game of not blinking first. I do realize cEDH is not the target for this rule, but yeah.
Well ideally that's the way to do it. Make it fair enough so you don't fall too far behind at a casual table, but restrictive enough that a competitive table doesn't want to game it. "If each opponent controls two or more lands than you...".
"During a player's draw step, if that player controls fewer lands than any other player, they may pay two life to search their library for a basic land card and put it into their hand instead of drawing their card for the turn."
"During a player's draw step, if that player controls fewer lands than any other player, they may pay two life to search their library for a basic land card and put it into their hand instead of drawing their card for the turn."
That wording is off the top of my head, but you get the idea--it's to replace your normal card draw (and only that one) with paying two life and get a basic instead. How could this be abused?
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I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Also knowing that I could always gets lands would probably impact how many I put in decks.
Very low CMC Commanders get a boost, especially if they ramp or draw cards.
I don't think you can "break" the rule as your original post posits. I think it leads to some bad deck design and bad games.
This has been a house rule with many people I play with : if you don't play a land for 3 turns you can skip your draw and get a basic.
It's not something I would be interested in pursuing, I'd rather help players build better decks to avoid manascrew.
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Something no one has mentioned thus far is that one of the consequences of this rule is that it discourages players from going first. If you're the player that takes the first turn of the game, you can't use this ability since, barring Gemstone Caverns, everyone will have the same number of lands in play at the start of the game (zero). From that point on though, provided players don't stumble and miss their land drops, everyone except player 1 will basically be able to use this ability all the time, at least until someone plays a Rampant Growth or something. And that first player might just get stuck. If players just play one land each turn as they normally would, the player that went first won't ever get to use this effect unless something unusual happens, like if they happen to miss a land drop themselves. Is that the intended purpose here? To usually punish the player going first?
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Honestly my concerns with this concept right now are questioning how relivant it is to keep the person with the most lands from doing this. I just wonder if there is too much of a negative in going first and not being able to do this unless someone ramps or until after you miss a land drop. My other concern would be the amount of time this might add to a game given in a lot of cases heavy tutoring is extremely annoying.
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I personally would be against it anyways, but if it was something like:
“At the beginning of your upkeep, if each opppnent controls more lands than you, you may pay 2 life. If you do, search your library for a basic land card, reveal it and put it in your hand. Skip your draw step. You may only use this ability once per game.”
And ban Panglacial Wurm.
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I've tried and tried to think about how we could just allow Command Tower to live in the command zone for example but any sort of free land just runs roughshod over deckbuilding, especially on the edges of the spectrum. Even with 2 lands behind as the rule, decks that only need small amounts of land will be able to adjust their land counts significantly (and gain a large advantage).
It's frustrating but I cannot think of a way to fix mana screw without benefitting spikier decks too much.
Decks that play a ton of non-land ramp also benefit, which is a big problem.
Even fiddling with the mulligan rules much (e.g. allowing another free mull if your hand is <=1 land) will do the same thing.
It's possible some kind of rider can be placed for "If your available mana production is less than" but that becomes quite fuzzy--where does Grim Monolith factor, and how does a Voltaic Key or Unwinding Clock factor in? It'd create a lot of annoying corner cases.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Nah thought it was a free cast for whatever reason.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
I would much rather just see a rule where you could have a one card sideboard with Command Tower in it, and as a replacement effect for one of your draw for turns you could exile a card from your hand to put it into your hand from your sideboard. Or Command Zone, but with a once per game clause.
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And even then I'm not sure
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Kek, yeah. Someone mentioned the card at the top of the thread and it just stuck with me.
“At the beginning of your upkeep, if another player controls two or more lands than you, you may exile a card from your hand.
If you do, search your library for a basic land and put it into your hand. Skip your draw step.”
That way it doesn’t reward the players who build with 20ish lands to abuse the rule and presents card disadvantage in exchange for the lands
...almost like mulliganing after the mulligan stage... but with one card
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I run 10 basics in my deck and am pretty much guaranteed to hit all 10 land drops if I want, while all the rest of my draws are guaranteed gas? Whereas someone running a more standard 35-40 lands has something like a 40% chance of dead draw? How can they hope to compete against me on card quality?
While this rulechange would do some things for lower tier tables, more competitive players can easily abuse this rule simply by warping their deckbuilding. It would probably benefit Blue decks the most which also isn't where you'd want to be, methinks. If at least you make the rule "If you controll less lands than ALL your opponents", then at least competitive games become a game of not blinking first. I do realize cEDH is not the target for this rule, but yeah.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Well ideally that's the way to do it. Make it fair enough so you don't fall too far behind at a casual table, but restrictive enough that a competitive table doesn't want to game it. "If each opponent controls two or more lands than you...".
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Just as the possibility of drawing into mitts of lands will always be possible.
Zuran Orb could possibly break it.