To a lessor Extent Oreskos Explorer can get you a few lands early, (but to hand only.)
A few questions about ramp cards (especially those noted above.)
1) How much ramp is good? I've read around a bunch of places that around 10 is a good place to be. I do play some mana sinks with Arahbo's ability and a few equipment, but there are only a few cards that top off the curve at 6. It does, however, draw a lot of cards.
2) Is Sword of the Animist worth it in a green deck? It does take a total of 4 mana to get any value, but rampant growth every turn seems pretty good.
4) How valuable are cards that put lands to hand versus ones that put them into play? Can they count somewhat to the ramp requirement that commander has?
5) Any other ramp I should run? Maybe the new Traverse the Outlands is more worth it?
2) I am not sure it is necessary, but I do run it in a lot of my decks. I only have 2 green decks (the two mentioned above) and Karametra runs it. Sidisi doesn't due to how the deck is built. I don't think it is a bad card to have, but if any deck could cut it, it would be a green deck. I do think an aggressive Cat deck like Arahbo can benefit from it and I would keep it in that deck.
3) I run Temple in a couple decks (only my Thassa and Ephara decks) but I no longer run any of the other 3. I personally feel they are too slow, though Krosan Verge is a bit better since it can duals. I wouldn't run them at all and I would not count them against ramp spells if I was running them.
4) Here are my go-to spells for ramp (note that all are creatures):
The last one isn't really ramp but it replaces itself with a card and 2 lands so it can help fix colors and make your land drops. And Burnished Hart is good but best in a deck that can reanimate and it loses value in a green deck. I do run Sol Ring and Mana Crypt in a few decks along with Signets or Talismans but I never run mana rocks in green decks. Green wants land ramp so I stick to that. I only run mana rocks in non-green decks due to the difficulty in ramping in those decks.
It depends on the deck though. Cats are mana-hungry between Arabho, Jazal, Temur Sabretooth, and juggling equipment (nevermind wanting to occasionally activate Rogue's Passage or Gavony Township). Sword of the Animist has been super underwhelming, and in general she's felt land-light enough that she's considering dropping one of the weaker cats (probably Phantom Nishoba or Jareth) for another ramp spell.
I'd say as I math it out most decks average 10-12 ramp cards and that generally feels like it works; I get the occasional explosive start, and rarely feel like I'm playing from behind.
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big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
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3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
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3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
2) I am not sure it is necessary, but I do run it in a lot of my decks. I only have 2 green decks (the two mentioned above) and Karametra runs it. Sidisi doesn't due to how the deck is built. I don't think it is a bad card to have, but if any deck could cut it, it would be a green deck. I do think an aggressive Cat deck like Arahbo can benefit from it and I would keep it in that deck.
3) I run Temple in a couple decks (only my Thassa and Ephara decks) but I no longer run any of the other 3. I personally feel they are too slow, though Krosan Verge is a bit better since it can duals. I wouldn't run them at all and I would not count them against ramp spells if I was running them.
4) Here are my go-to spells for ramp (note that all are creatures):
The last one isn't really ramp but it replaces itself with a card and 2 lands so it can help fix colors and make your land drops. And Burnished Hart is good but best in a deck that can reanimate and it loses value in a green deck. I do run Sol Ring and Mana Crypt in a few decks along with Signets or Talismans but I never run mana rocks in green decks. Green wants land ramp so I stick to that. I only run mana rocks in non-green decks due to the difficulty in ramping in those decks.
5) I guess I just answered that
I like this answer, so If I don't count Blighted Woodland, Krosan Verge and Myriad Landscape as ramp. That makes 10 sources of ramp in my deck, both you and Hawk overlap at 10 ramps cards, so it enforces me to believe that my original statement was correct and 10 is probably the best estimate. Welp, looks like I'm not cutting ramp after all. I'll have to look elsewhere for cuts I guess.
It depends on the deck though. Cats are mana-hungry between Arabho, Jazal, Temur Sabretooth, and juggling equipment (nevermind wanting to occasionally activate Rogue's Passage or Gavony Township). Sword of the Animist has been super underwhelming, and in general she's felt land-light enough that she's considering dropping one of the weaker cats (probably Phantom Nishoba or Jareth) for another ramp spell.
I'd say as I math it out most decks average 10-12 ramp cards and that generally feels like it works; I get the occasional explosive start, and rarely feel like I'm playing from behind.
Looks similar to mine, I'm running Mana Reflection instead of Zendikar Resurgence, which I play because I have a ton of draw as is and would prefer the discount of 1 to start doubling mana. I also run Sakura-Tribe Elder instead of Exploration, but now that I think of it, exploration might be better if I'm drawing a ton of land for my massive draw spells like Rishkar's Expertise.
Sword of the Animist is great when it works, but awful when it doesn't. If somebody has a Peacekeeper, or if you have no good attacks, or if there are a lot of boardwipes, the card does nothing.
I think it would be a reasonable cut.
Traverse the outlands is even worse, since it is slow and can easily fail to do anything with board wipes running amuck.
I know you want to cut cards though. I would play either of the above two mana rocks over rampant growth and sword of the animist. I just don't think that you have a lot of options for cutting ramp. I actually think you should add Birds of Paradise and Avacyn's Pilgrim at the very least.
My commander decks usually want 42-48 sources of mana, depending on their speed. Remember that, in general, commander has higher average CMC than a comparable 60-card deck. This usually takes the form of curves starting at 2+ with a small amount of utility and removal 1-drops. What that means is that CMC 2 rocks act more like lands than actual ramp. Signets, diamonds, Rampant Growth, Farseek, Mind Stone, Coldsteel Heart, and Fellwar Stone have a place in nearly every deck. Bigger stuff like Worn Powersone, Thran Dynamo, Explosive Vegetation, Cultivate, and Kodama's Reach are more specialized since using your turn 3/4/5 ramping loses you a lot of tempo.
If your deck tops out in the 3-5 CMC area, you can probably get away with 36 lands and 6-8 2 CMC mana rocks/ramp, whereas if you have over 10 cards of CMC 6+ I would begin to look into cards that get you multiple mana per card.
Boundless Realms, Mirari's Wake, and Mana Reflection are win conditions, rather than ramp. Once you resolve those you should ideally be able to pull out a victory in a few turns either through combo or out-valuing your opponents.
My commander decks usually want 42-48 sources of mana, depending on their speed. Remember that, in general, commander has higher average CMC than a comparable 60-card deck. This usually takes the form of curves starting at 2+ with a small amount of utility and removal 1-drops. What that means is that CMC 2 rocks act more like lands than actual ramp. Signets, diamonds, Rampant Growth, Farseek, Mind Stone, Coldsteel Heart, and Fellwar Stone have a place in nearly every deck. Bigger stuff like Worn Powersone, Thran Dynamo, Explosive Vegetation, Cultivate, and Kodama's Reach are more specialized since using your turn 3/4/5 ramping loses you a lot of tempo.
If your deck tops out in the 3-5 CMC area, you can probably get away with 36 lands and 6-8 2 CMC mana rocks/ramp, whereas if you have over 10 cards of CMC 6+ I would begin to look into cards that get you multiple mana per card.
Boundless Realms, Mirari's Wake, and Mana Reflection are win conditions, rather than ramp. Once you resolve those you should ideally be able to pull out a victory in a few turns either through combo or out-valuing your opponents.
you're probably right about that last point, auuuugh that means I need to add even more ramp. Man i'll never be able to cut down to 100 cards at this rate
For reference, my current "106 card decklist" is below:
I had it in, but decided against it eventually. My opponents will be drawing lots of cards with her out. Plus you have to wait to get value and she dies much easier than say a land.
If I had to make cuts I would do them in this order (top is most likely): Lost Leonin: You've got Grafted Exoskeleton for infect. Most infect creatures are mediocre by themselves.
Krosan Vorine: It's good at picking off specific blockers, but ideally your creatures will be bigger and/or evasive anyway with your equipment. Ulvenwald Tracer does this better as a creature anyway.
Serra Ascendant: This is more of a personal preference, but the card is either a huge, early target or a 1/1. In my experience it comes down as an annoyance that gets removed fast if you play it early or fodder if you draw it late. I just find that the upside is not worth the potentially useless card for me. But it's still good if you pop it out early.
Nacatl War-Pride: It's a cool card that gives you evasion, but it usually only works once due to his small body. Ideally you want your equipped creatures to connect, so equipment on his is almost wasted.
Garruk, Primal Hunter: With Life's Legacy, Momentous Fall, Greater Good, and Rishkar's Expertise you have a good suite of "power matters" draw spells. Garruk trades the upsides of instant speed, low CMC, free spells, and repetition for the option to pump out tokens. This is one of those cards that I always stick in my decks and always cut. Your other options are all better.
Survival of the Fittest: This is an amazing card, don't get me wrong. However, lacking any graveyard synergy really hurts its effectiveness. Things like Genesis, Karmic Guide, or Reveillark (in G/W) are what make it more than a creature transmute spell. This is always a card I have trouble cutting, but it just doesn't work in some decks. You already have Eladamri's Call and Worldly Tutor for utility. If you really want this card, I'd cut Worldly in its place (as I often do because I love the card), but your inability to really abuse it makes me consider it a cut.
Also, when evaluating your mana producers remember that Sylvan Library can fill in as one by helping you hit those early land drops in a manner similar to Ponder/Brainstorm. Hope this helps.
I was already ahead on some of those cuts. Namely Worldly Tutor and Survival of the fittest, since they both technically incur card disadvantage and all my creatures are more or less the same (they really just need to have the subtype-cat.) and few get us back that card advantage except maybe Sun Titan and Eternal Witness
I'll consider the others you said. I just want to be careful cutting the number of cats too low, since the deck doesn't function without them. I could see cutting Garruk, Primal Hunter as well.
I was already ahead on some of those cuts. Namely Worldly Tutor and Survival of the fittest, since they both technically incur card disadvantage and all my creatures are more or less the same (they really just need to have the subtype-cat.) and few get us back that card advantage except maybe Sun Titan and Eternal Witness
I'll consider the others you said. I just want to be careful cutting the number of cats too low, since the deck doesn't function without them. I could see cutting Garruk, Primal Hunter as well.
I wouldn't necessarily recommend cutting all of those cards, I just wanted to give you some options. I really like the War-Pride, for example, but it's just not super good. You can definitely use it to good effect, however. Same thing with the Swordsmith. Although if you care about creature type over equipment, you could probably ditch the Steelshaper's Gift instead. I forgot your commander was Arahbo, not Nazahn.
Right now I have these cards that I could consider ramp:
To a lessor Extent Oreskos Explorer can get you a few lands early, (but to hand only.)
A few questions about ramp cards (especially those noted above.)
1) How much ramp is good? I've read around a bunch of places that around 10 is a good place to be. I do play some mana sinks with Arahbo's ability and a few equipment, but there are only a few cards that top off the curve at 6. It does, however, draw a lot of cards.
2) Is Sword of the Animist worth it in a green deck? It does take a total of 4 mana to get any value, but rampant growth every turn seems pretty good.
3) Should lands such as Krosan Verge, Myriad Landscape, Blighted Woodland and Temple of the False God count toward ramp?
4) How valuable are cards that put lands to hand versus ones that put them into play? Can they count somewhat to the ramp requirement that commander has?
5) Any other ramp I should run? Maybe the new Traverse the Outlands is more worth it?
6) What ramp packages do you guys run?
Cheers!
Arahbo, Kitty Kat Beatdown Decklist
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Kamigawa Re-Experience
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2) I am not sure it is necessary, but I do run it in a lot of my decks. I only have 2 green decks (the two mentioned above) and Karametra runs it. Sidisi doesn't due to how the deck is built. I don't think it is a bad card to have, but if any deck could cut it, it would be a green deck. I do think an aggressive Cat deck like Arahbo can benefit from it and I would keep it in that deck.
3) I run Temple in a couple decks (only my Thassa and Ephara decks) but I no longer run any of the other 3. I personally feel they are too slow, though Krosan Verge is a bit better since it can duals. I wouldn't run them at all and I would not count them against ramp spells if I was running them.
4) Here are my go-to spells for ramp (note that all are creatures):
The last one isn't really ramp but it replaces itself with a card and 2 lands so it can help fix colors and make your land drops. And Burnished Hart is good but best in a deck that can reanimate and it loses value in a green deck. I do run Sol Ring and Mana Crypt in a few decks along with Signets or Talismans but I never run mana rocks in green decks. Green wants land ramp so I stick to that. I only run mana rocks in non-green decks due to the difficulty in ramping in those decks.
5) I guess I just answered that
Krosan Verge
Exploration
Sol Ring
Nature's Lore
Rampant Growth
Sword of the Animist
Cultivate
Kodama's Reach
Mirari's Wake
Zendikar's Resurgence
It depends on the deck though. Cats are mana-hungry between Arabho, Jazal, Temur Sabretooth, and juggling equipment (nevermind wanting to occasionally activate Rogue's Passage or Gavony Township). Sword of the Animist has been super underwhelming, and in general she's felt land-light enough that she's considering dropping one of the weaker cats (probably Phantom Nishoba or Jareth) for another ramp spell.
I'd say as I math it out most decks average 10-12 ramp cards and that generally feels like it works; I get the occasional explosive start, and rarely feel like I'm playing from behind.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
1 skyshroud claim
1 hunting wilds
1 ranger's path
1 karametra, god of harvests
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big receipts
alpha mox emerald
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4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
I like this answer, so If I don't count Blighted Woodland, Krosan Verge and Myriad Landscape as ramp. That makes 10 sources of ramp in my deck, both you and Hawk overlap at 10 ramps cards, so it enforces me to believe that my original statement was correct and 10 is probably the best estimate. Welp, looks like I'm not cutting ramp after all. I'll have to look elsewhere for cuts I guess.
Looks similar to mine, I'm running Mana Reflection instead of Zendikar Resurgence, which I play because I have a ton of draw as is and would prefer the discount of 1 to start doubling mana. I also run Sakura-Tribe Elder instead of Exploration, but now that I think of it, exploration might be better if I'm drawing a ton of land for my massive draw spells like Rishkar's Expertise.
Arahbo, Kitty Kat Beatdown Decklist
Mizzix of the Izmagnus Decklist
Breya, Etherium Shaper
Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow Decklist
My Current Set Cube Lists:
Kamigawa Re-Experience
Ravnica, City of Guilds Re-Experience
Alara Re-Experience
Frontier Siege is a "ramp"
I think it would be a reasonable cut.
Traverse the outlands is even worse, since it is slow and can easily fail to do anything with board wipes running amuck.
Selesnya Signet could be considered. It is very good with Mana Reflection.
Mind Stone is also great in a two-colour deck.
I know you want to cut cards though. I would play either of the above two mana rocks over rampant growth and sword of the animist. I just don't think that you have a lot of options for cutting ramp. I actually think you should add Birds of Paradise and Avacyn's Pilgrim at the very least.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
If your deck tops out in the 3-5 CMC area, you can probably get away with 36 lands and 6-8 2 CMC mana rocks/ramp, whereas if you have over 10 cards of CMC 6+ I would begin to look into cards that get you multiple mana per card.
Boundless Realms, Mirari's Wake, and Mana Reflection are win conditions, rather than ramp. Once you resolve those you should ideally be able to pull out a victory in a few turns either through combo or out-valuing your opponents.
you're probably right about that last point, auuuugh that means I need to add even more ramp. Man i'll never be able to cut down to 100 cards at this rate
For reference, my current "106 card decklist" is below:
1x Serra Ascendant
1x Ulvenwald Tracker
1x Oreskos Explorer
1x Adorned Pouncer
1x Fleecemane Lion
1x Leonin Shikari
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Lost Leonin
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist
1x Stalking Leonin
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Kemba, Kha Regent
1x Pride Sovereign
1x Skyhunter Skirmisher
1x Eternal Witness
1x Alms Collector
1x Balan, Wandering Knight
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Temur Sabretooth
1x Krosan Vorine
1x Jazal Goldmane
1x Regal Caracal
1x Qasali Slingers
1x Taj-Nar Swordsmith
1x Arahbo, Roar of the World
1x Stonehewer Giant
1x Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
1x Jedit Ojanen of Efrava
1x Nacatl War-Pride
1x Sun Titan
1x Sol Ring
1x Path to Exile
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Steelshaper's Gift
1x Skullclamp
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Exploration
1x Worldly Tutor
1x Sylvan Library
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of the Animist
1x Swiftfoot Boots
1x Life's Legacy
1x Nature's Lore
1x Survival of the Fittest
1x Eladamri's Call
1x Oblation
1x Song of the Dryads
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Beast Within
1x Cultivate
1x Kodama's Reach
1x Behemoth Sledge
1x Aura Shards
1x Greater Good
1x Hammer of Nazahn
1x Grafted Exoskeleton
1x Momentous Fall
1x Nature's Will
1x Mirari's Wake
1x Tragic Arrogance
1x White Sun's Zenith
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x Rishkar's Expertise
1x Austere Command
1x True Conviction
LANDS
1x Blighted Woodland
1x Brushland
1x Buried Ruin
1x Canopy Vista
1x Command Tower
1x Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1x Fortified Village
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Krosan Verge
1x Path of Ancestry
1x Mosswort Bridge
1x Myraid Landscape
1x Savannah
1x Scattered Groves
1x Selesnya Sanctuary
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Sunpetal Grove
1x Temple Garden
1x Temple of Plenty
1x Temple of the False God
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Bastion
1x Yavimaya Hollow
1x Mutavault
7x Plains
6x Forest
Arahbo, Kitty Kat Beatdown Decklist
Mizzix of the Izmagnus Decklist
Breya, Etherium Shaper
Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow Decklist
My Current Set Cube Lists:
Kamigawa Re-Experience
Ravnica, City of Guilds Re-Experience
Alara Re-Experience
I had it in, but decided against it eventually. My opponents will be drawing lots of cards with her out. Plus you have to wait to get value and she dies much easier than say a land.
Arahbo, Kitty Kat Beatdown Decklist
Mizzix of the Izmagnus Decklist
Breya, Etherium Shaper
Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow Decklist
My Current Set Cube Lists:
Kamigawa Re-Experience
Ravnica, City of Guilds Re-Experience
Alara Re-Experience
If I had to make cuts I would do them in this order (top is most likely):
Lost Leonin: You've got Grafted Exoskeleton for infect. Most infect creatures are mediocre by themselves.
Krosan Vorine: It's good at picking off specific blockers, but ideally your creatures will be bigger and/or evasive anyway with your equipment. Ulvenwald Tracer does this better as a creature anyway.
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava: is expensive and slow. He's like half a Grave Titan with a Torpor Orb out. I've played him in mono-G tokens before, and he's just not that great.
Serra Ascendant: This is more of a personal preference, but the card is either a huge, early target or a 1/1. In my experience it comes down as an annoyance that gets removed fast if you play it early or fodder if you draw it late. I just find that the upside is not worth the potentially useless card for me. But it's still good if you pop it out early.
Nacatl War-Pride: It's a cool card that gives you evasion, but it usually only works once due to his small body. Ideally you want your equipped creatures to connect, so equipment on his is almost wasted.
Garruk, Primal Hunter: With Life's Legacy, Momentous Fall, Greater Good, and Rishkar's Expertise you have a good suite of "power matters" draw spells. Garruk trades the upsides of instant speed, low CMC, free spells, and repetition for the option to pump out tokens. This is one of those cards that I always stick in my decks and always cut. Your other options are all better.
Taj-Nar Swordsmith: You've got SFM, Stonehewer Giant, Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith, Steelshaper's Gift, and Enlightened Tutor already. He's an okay card that comes with a body for your equipment, but he's the worst one of the bunch if you have to choose.
Song of the Dryads: You've got good removal in the form of PtE, StP, Oblation, Aura Shards, Beast Within, and Qasali Ambushers. the fact that it can be Disenchanted is an annoying bit.
Survival of the Fittest: This is an amazing card, don't get me wrong. However, lacking any graveyard synergy really hurts its effectiveness. Things like Genesis, Karmic Guide, or Reveillark (in G/W) are what make it more than a creature transmute spell. This is always a card I have trouble cutting, but it just doesn't work in some decks. You already have Eladamri's Call and Worldly Tutor for utility. If you really want this card, I'd cut Worldly in its place (as I often do because I love the card), but your inability to really abuse it makes me consider it a cut.
Also, when evaluating your mana producers remember that Sylvan Library can fill in as one by helping you hit those early land drops in a manner similar to Ponder/Brainstorm. Hope this helps.
I was already ahead on some of those cuts. Namely Worldly Tutor and Survival of the fittest, since they both technically incur card disadvantage and all my creatures are more or less the same (they really just need to have the subtype-cat.) and few get us back that card advantage except maybe Sun Titan and Eternal Witness
Also, I could probably easily cut song of the dryads
I'll consider the others you said. I just want to be careful cutting the number of cats too low, since the deck doesn't function without them. I could see cutting Garruk, Primal Hunter as well.
Arahbo, Kitty Kat Beatdown Decklist
Mizzix of the Izmagnus Decklist
Breya, Etherium Shaper
Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow Decklist
My Current Set Cube Lists:
Kamigawa Re-Experience
Ravnica, City of Guilds Re-Experience
Alara Re-Experience
I wouldn't necessarily recommend cutting all of those cards, I just wanted to give you some options. I really like the War-Pride, for example, but it's just not super good. You can definitely use it to good effect, however. Same thing with the Swordsmith. Although if you care about creature type over equipment, you could probably ditch the Steelshaper's Gift instead. I forgot your commander was Arahbo, not Nazahn.
Some other considerations:
Felidar Cub/Enlightened Ascetic/Leonin Relic-Warder keeps a CMC 2 cat while giving you utility.
Felidar Guardian can reuse your ETB triggers.
Fleetfoot Panther/Whitemane Lion can save your other creatures.
I was able to get my deck down to 100 cards thanks to help on the forums. Landed up cutting Oblation, Song of the Dryads, Worldly Tutor, Survival of the Fittest, Jedit Ojanen of Efrava and Lost Leonin.
If anyone is curious, they can see it here
Arahbo, Kitty Kat Beatdown Decklist
Mizzix of the Izmagnus Decklist
Breya, Etherium Shaper
Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow Decklist
My Current Set Cube Lists:
Kamigawa Re-Experience
Ravnica, City of Guilds Re-Experience
Alara Re-Experience