I have a lot of fun discovering and thinking about combos for my deck(s). I enjoy searching for and collecting the cards, especially because I don't live in the USA and don't have a strong secondary card market. It is almost like a treasure hunt on it's own digging through trade binders and boxes. Finally, it is satisfying to put it all together and "live the dream" going off in game. All of that said, I also know what it is like to be lock into a fun game (or watching one on YouTube) only to have it come to a sudden end. That is why I have mixed feeling about including combos, and which to include, if any in my deck(s).
I think there is a difference between trying to power out a combo with tutors and ramp, and having a back door plan to end a game that has gone on far too long.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I appreciate the effort that goes into finding and performing them, but I don't like the experience during a game of one player going from losing to instant win.
Of course, some infinite combos don't cause an instant win. A creature made infinitely huge becomes The Abyss to whoever it attacks, but can be dealt with in many cases. Infinite tokens that don't have haste give everyone at the table one turn to have a board wipe or fog or something. Bounded infinite combos such as getting all the lands out of your deck aren't usually instant wins either, but end up being gateways to help you win. These I don't feel are anywhere near as onerous as someone just casting Tooth and Nail to grab Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Zealous Conscripts to win out of nowhere, for example.
I understand the idea of a combo that ends the game if it goes too long. The issue is, what happens when you draw both in the first 3 turns? Do you sandbag until you get tired of the game? Cast it t4 and shuflfe up?
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I don't mind them until a player seems to be hitting the combo consistently. In that case, the other players should just always agree to ONLY attack that player first, and then we all play once they are dead. If people know that you have an infinite combo, they should just knock you out of the game immediately.
I don't really care about playing against them, so long as the combo player isn't disrupting the flow of the group, which goes for any deck.
I hate playing combo decks. Once the combo happens a couple of times, I tend to pull the deck a part and build something that I find less boring to play.
I think most people can self-police themselves in their own metas.
This is the polite thing to do. If all you have are combo decks, you should have a few others to play if the table isn't too cool on them. I'm personally not a big fan, but I haven't run into too many lately.
I try to build my decks so that the have multiple ways to win and try to encourage other's in my play-group to do the same. I also try to encourage players who dislike combo to run and hold onto removal or meta cards, and explain timing options for cards such as Deadeye Navigator or mike/trike. Sometimes the frustrating thing about combo is not knowing how to dismantle it, and just a small amount of knowledge and deck preparation can go a long ways.
I like combos, I'm iffy on glass-canon combo, both playing and playing against, actually. You either destroy them or they win rapidly, but frequently neither ... feels good. It's a long-suffering Ad Nauseum player who keeps playing after you've Sadistic Sacramented out their combo. I don't begrudge them their place, though.
All the Azami decks locally are "that" Mind Over Matter Azami deck, but despite that, I love playing against Azami: the combo-control elements mean that even if they finish you off with a combo, you're going to have a battle with them over it.
I think most of the issues are power-level balance. If you're playing Hermit Druid against out of the box precons, combos are a problem. At the very spiky end, all the fair - and most of the unfair - decks are packing answers.
I'm a huge fan of combo decks. I'm always on the lookout for really fun to perform combos and strive to make a deck that can combo out if need to. As long as it is not boring over-done combos like Niv+Curosity, Mike+Trisk, Kiki+Conscripts, Omniscience+Enter the Infinite or Palinchron+whatever, sign me up.
On the contrary, decks that have a main strategy which involves turning big, efficient creatures sideways to deal combat damage bores me a lot, no matter how much interaction is done in midst of combat. Not to say I dislike aggro/battle cruiser decks, I just find that such strategies don't suit my personality.
Sometimes I just don't get why some players are so salty about losing to combos, even when the combo isn't an infinite combo per se. A example would be in my Karlov deck, on Turn 9 I activated:
All I get were looks of disgust and disapproval, and their board were choked full of good stuff like Prophet of Kruphix, Consecrated Sphinx, Purophoros and such.
I like it if at least the combo player also plays an active role throughout the game. Like they actually interact with the table, and don't just spend 8 turns watching what's going on and then go "T&N into MikeTrike I win". That causes some salt. But if I've had Gemstone Array out for 4 turns, my commander is Rasputin Dreamweaver and I drop a Deadeye Navigator...then you kinda should've seen that coming.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Not a fan, I like synergy but don't like infinite combos that much. Decks with infinite combos are boring and most of the time the deck is built to put the combo together, so usually typical tutoring and assembly occurs and is for the most part uninteractive - not what this format was really built for. Deck that rely on them aren't fun for opponents to play against. All it takes is one game to turn me off having a second round with someone 1v1. When I started with EDH the appeal came from the variety and different games that EDH brings. I personally believe degenerate combos aren't in the spirit of the format. So anyone who plays them usually is the first person I prioritize dealing with. I'd rather play against Khalia than play against Azami combo, you know before the match starts that the only real way they will win is by countering your stuff and assembling their combo.
I think there is a difference between trying to power out a combo with tutors and ramp, and having a back door plan to end a game that has gone on far too long.
Basically this. I also think that there is a slight difference between a combo and strong synergies. For example, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Triskelion is a combo and you play Trisk mainly because of the combo. But Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Puppeteer Clique + Goblin Bombardment are all strong pieces of their own and just 'happen' to fall in the right place. Eldrazi Displacer seems like another culprit of this. And I'm totally okay with this. But combo just for the combo's sake is what I don't like.
you know before the match starts that the only real way they will win is by countering your stuff and assembling their combo.
This doesn't change for the other archetypes either. If you tell me what type of deck you are playing I can tell you what your winning strategy is before the game begins.
The reason I enjoy playing combo is specifically because everyone I play with already knows I enjoy it. It makes everything much more exciting knowing that everyone wants to stop you from doing your thing and really makes you carefully consider your plays, also if the group you are playing against is playing decks on the level of yours and you are playing Combo you or your combo will not survive without playing with the board constantly to keep people off your back.
I feel that the problem Combo decks and the perception of them that comes about is because a Combo deck that is on a higher level than the rest of the table can much easier just walk away with the game than the other archetypes so it is easy for people to have a bad experience with a deck that is well above their ability to stop.
Also the method and madness of combo decks I have noticed and breed some very smug players and no one likes playing with people like that, or for that matter people who try to obfuscate the true meaning of certain irrelevant cards on board.
Although I play in 3 regular different groups that all run a lot a lot of removal all the time so it makes playing non interactively a bad idea if you want to survive.
And yeah if a Two card combo does drop then we shuffle up and start a new game because that is how the game works and none of us are petulant children.
Sometimes I just don't get why some players are so salty about losing to combos, even when the combo isn't an infinite combo per se. A example would be in my Karlov deck, on Turn 9 I activated:
All I get were looks of disgust and disapproval, and their board were choked full of good stuff like Prophet of Kruphix, Consecrated Sphinx, Purophoros and such.
Ok, that one is pretty darn cool. While I don't generally like infinite combos that have people win out of nowhere, things like this are really unique and fun to watch go off. I like watching storm go off too, because it's usually a very impressive flurry of spells that doesn't always hold the promise of victory.
My deck for the last year has been Ghoulcaller Gisa.
+ I have Mike, but no Trike because Trike doesn't fit the theme of my deck... but I am tempted to add it and the second people see Mike, they assume that Trike is coming.
+ I have Rings of Brighthearth and two ways of getting infinite mana, but that isn't why it is in the deck. I have 24 cards in my deck with activated abilities which can be copied for extra value. When I do go infinite, I like to cast Empty the Pits instead of Exsanguinate. While the result might as well be the same, I feel it fits the flavor and purpose of the deck more. (For those who don't know, if I have 6 swamps, Cabal Coffers, and Deserted Temple, then you can go infinite black mana. With Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, you can do it with 6 lands in play.)
+ I have Nim Deathmantle, and it is one of my favorite cards in my deck because of the raw value it gives to my commander. However, if I also add Ashnod's Altar to my deck (which I am looking to buy one), then I can go infinite with Geralf's Messenger, or infinite tokens with Grave Titan, Skeletal Vampire, or Wurmcoil Engine. There are likely other good combos in mono black, but I already use those creatures I named in my deck because I like them. (Seriously, Sacrifice Skeletal Vampire to Gisa to make 3+ zombies, then bring it back as a 5/5 flyer with intimidate and two more bats each turn? Yes please.
+ I have Leyline of the Void as one form of graveyard hate, and am tempted to add Helm for the infinite mill combo and as an alternate win condition but am not sure if I should. Helm isn't good on it's own, and there is no real flavor to this combo, just a mix of rules conditions.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I am a combo player at heart, but I don't include combos just to combo. For example, I won't include Azami, Lady of Scrolls and Mind over Matter in my Sidisi, Brood Tyrant deck because it feels out of place. I will, however, include a combo that fits the theme of the deck; I'll surely include some Necrotic Ooze combos, for instance, in my Sidisi, Brood Tyrant deck.
Basically, if a combo would "fit" a deck and doesn't feel too out of place in my deck, then I will consider running it.
I will, however, include a combo that fits the theme of the deck [...]
Though I'm not a flavor builder generally, I do find some combos really fit the theme of a deck. I found Laboratory Maniac extremely flavorful in an Izzet League general like Mizzix of the Izmagnus: it totally fits the "mad scientist" theme of the guild.
They are not to my tastes but different strokes for different folks. I do think that every deck should have a way to end a game should it go on too long but I prefer something like Chandra's Ignition ect.
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EDH BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern: RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
I feel pretty good about them, when they're on my side of the table.
But losing to one doesn't feel any worse than losing to a suited-up Uril or whatever.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I find two card combo's using your general to be obnoxious, because you just need a single tutor to set it up. Two card non general combos also annoying because you draw one and tutor for the other.
Two cards and your general, not great but bareble, three card combo ok especially if it involves the graveyard or creatures which are easy to interact with.
Perhaps I am just bias because I play Karmic guide ,reveillark, blasting station in my bird tribal deck as a opps I win when I got wrathed 4 times and can't beat down anymore. People are getting annoied about it since I have been winning with it recently, although they really should deal with my birthing pod. My other combo is Nim deathmantle + ashnod's altar + lots of things that etb with multiple guys or dies. that one doesn't win on the spot I still have to attack... unless I have profane command but then it's a 4 card combo...
Combo's are just a way to end a long game suddenly and instantly, it can feel bad when you have been trying to grind your way to a win and someone just invalidates your efforts like that. Which is why I want combos to be as complicated as possible with multiple fail states so that it takes a long time to find the things and they only happen when a game has gone on too long. People playing a lot of tutors and a combo are are going to find themselves hated out and spending a lot of time just watching a game from the sidelines.
My playgroup and I build to be competitive and have fun within all levels of play. Infinite combos will always exist in EDH: we believe it is best to adapt and compete.
Depends on the deck. My playgroup will play just about anything that isn't counterspell heavy. We have a couple of guys that are all about the infinite combos, and I have two decks that use them...one that can't go off unless my opponents board state lines up and another that requires 18+ cards to go off and doesn't actually need the infinite combo to do it. It's fine to play them, but if your entire deck is built to employ them, then you're gonna get hated out quick.
I've played them and played against them pretty freqently over the years.
I prefer to keep infinites in my decks limited. I dont mind having one on the condition that I only play it lategame as a clutch win or to punish someone else trying to run away with the game early. Fast infinites suck the fun out of the game for everyone except the person playing it.
I also don't mind opponents running infinites, provided they aren't some hypertuned guaranteed-turn-four-or-five thing that they try to throw out every single game. That gets old fast, and players who use them are my favorite target.
I think there is a difference between trying to power out a combo with tutors and ramp, and having a back door plan to end a game that has gone on far too long.
Of course, some infinite combos don't cause an instant win. A creature made infinitely huge becomes The Abyss to whoever it attacks, but can be dealt with in many cases. Infinite tokens that don't have haste give everyone at the table one turn to have a board wipe or fog or something. Bounded infinite combos such as getting all the lands out of your deck aren't usually instant wins either, but end up being gateways to help you win. These I don't feel are anywhere near as onerous as someone just casting Tooth and Nail to grab Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Zealous Conscripts to win out of nowhere, for example.
But I'm okay with not officially banning everything into oblivion.
I think most people can self-police themselves in their own metas.
Thread | Draft
I hate playing combo decks. Once the combo happens a couple of times, I tend to pull the deck a part and build something that I find less boring to play.
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[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
This is the polite thing to do. If all you have are combo decks, you should have a few others to play if the table isn't too cool on them. I'm personally not a big fan, but I haven't run into too many lately.
I like combos, I'm iffy on glass-canon combo, both playing and playing against, actually. You either destroy them or they win rapidly, but frequently neither ... feels good. It's a long-suffering Ad Nauseum player who keeps playing after you've Sadistic Sacramented out their combo. I don't begrudge them their place, though.
All the Azami decks locally are "that" Mind Over Matter Azami deck, but despite that, I love playing against Azami: the combo-control elements mean that even if they finish you off with a combo, you're going to have a battle with them over it.
I think most of the issues are power-level balance. If you're playing Hermit Druid against out of the box precons, combos are a problem. At the very spiky end, all the fair - and most of the unfair - decks are packing answers.
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
On the contrary, decks that have a main strategy which involves turning big, efficient creatures sideways to deal combat damage bores me a lot, no matter how much interaction is done in midst of combat. Not to say I dislike aggro/battle cruiser decks, I just find that such strategies don't suit my personality.
Sometimes I just don't get why some players are so salty about losing to combos, even when the combo isn't an infinite combo per se. A example would be in my Karlov deck, on Turn 9 I activated:
Vizkopa Guildmage (2nd ability once), Children of Korlis, Phyrexian Reclamation (to lose life and bring back CoK 4 times), killing a player on the table while bringing down the life of 2 others.
All I get were looks of disgust and disapproval, and their board were choked full of good stuff like Prophet of Kruphix, Consecrated Sphinx, Purophoros and such.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
This doesn't change for the other archetypes either. If you tell me what type of deck you are playing I can tell you what your winning strategy is before the game begins.
The reason I enjoy playing combo is specifically because everyone I play with already knows I enjoy it. It makes everything much more exciting knowing that everyone wants to stop you from doing your thing and really makes you carefully consider your plays, also if the group you are playing against is playing decks on the level of yours and you are playing Combo you or your combo will not survive without playing with the board constantly to keep people off your back.
I feel that the problem Combo decks and the perception of them that comes about is because a Combo deck that is on a higher level than the rest of the table can much easier just walk away with the game than the other archetypes so it is easy for people to have a bad experience with a deck that is well above their ability to stop.
Also the method and madness of combo decks I have noticed and breed some very smug players and no one likes playing with people like that, or for that matter people who try to obfuscate the true meaning of certain irrelevant cards on board.
Although I play in 3 regular different groups that all run a lot a lot of removal all the time so it makes playing non interactively a bad idea if you want to survive.
And yeah if a Two card combo does drop then we shuffle up and start a new game because that is how the game works and none of us are petulant children.
My deck for the last year has been Ghoulcaller Gisa.
+ I have Mike, but no Trike because Trike doesn't fit the theme of my deck... but I am tempted to add it and the second people see Mike, they assume that Trike is coming.
+ I have Rings of Brighthearth and two ways of getting infinite mana, but that isn't why it is in the deck. I have 24 cards in my deck with activated abilities which can be copied for extra value. When I do go infinite, I like to cast Empty the Pits instead of Exsanguinate. While the result might as well be the same, I feel it fits the flavor and purpose of the deck more. (For those who don't know, if I have 6 swamps, Cabal Coffers, and Deserted Temple, then you can go infinite black mana. With Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, you can do it with 6 lands in play.)
+ I have Nim Deathmantle, and it is one of my favorite cards in my deck because of the raw value it gives to my commander. However, if I also add Ashnod's Altar to my deck (which I am looking to buy one), then I can go infinite with Geralf's Messenger, or infinite tokens with Grave Titan, Skeletal Vampire, or Wurmcoil Engine. There are likely other good combos in mono black, but I already use those creatures I named in my deck because I like them. (Seriously, Sacrifice Skeletal Vampire to Gisa to make 3+ zombies, then bring it back as a 5/5 flyer with intimidate and two more bats each turn? Yes please.
+ I have Leyline of the Void as one form of graveyard hate, and am tempted to add Helm for the infinite mill combo and as an alternate win condition but am not sure if I should. Helm isn't good on it's own, and there is no real flavor to this combo, just a mix of rules conditions.
Basically, if a combo would "fit" a deck and doesn't feel too out of place in my deck, then I will consider running it.
-Commander-
UBGMill, Sidisi, and Other ShenanigansGBU
WUBRGShingeki no TazriGRBUW
Though I'm not a flavor builder generally, I do find some combos really fit the theme of a deck. I found Laboratory Maniac extremely flavorful in an Izzet League general like Mizzix of the Izmagnus: it totally fits the "mad scientist" theme of the guild.
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
But losing to one doesn't feel any worse than losing to a suited-up Uril or whatever.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Two cards and your general, not great but bareble, three card combo ok especially if it involves the graveyard or creatures which are easy to interact with.
Perhaps I am just bias because I play Karmic guide ,reveillark, blasting station in my bird tribal deck as a opps I win when I got wrathed 4 times and can't beat down anymore. People are getting annoied about it since I have been winning with it recently, although they really should deal with my birthing pod. My other combo is Nim deathmantle + ashnod's altar + lots of things that etb with multiple guys or dies. that one doesn't win on the spot I still have to attack... unless I have profane command but then it's a 4 card combo...
Combo's are just a way to end a long game suddenly and instantly, it can feel bad when you have been trying to grind your way to a win and someone just invalidates your efforts like that. Which is why I want combos to be as complicated as possible with multiple fail states so that it takes a long time to find the things and they only happen when a game has gone on too long. People playing a lot of tutors and a combo are are going to find themselves hated out and spending a lot of time just watching a game from the sidelines.
They are much less annoying than one card combo's, like ensanguinate, tooth and nail (into a combo), omniscience
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Keep brewing.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
I prefer to keep infinites in my decks limited. I dont mind having one on the condition that I only play it lategame as a clutch win or to punish someone else trying to run away with the game early. Fast infinites suck the fun out of the game for everyone except the person playing it.
I also don't mind opponents running infinites, provided they aren't some hypertuned guaranteed-turn-four-or-five thing that they try to throw out every single game. That gets old fast, and players who use them are my favorite target.
Nicol Bolas Dragon Dick
Hanna, Ship's Navigator Heart-attack Stax
Oona, Queen of the Fae Fairy Dance
Vhati Il-Dal Tree of Woe
Scion of the Ur-Dragon Durgensturm
Jolrael, Empress of Beasts Jamuraa's Army
Liliana, Heretical Healer Rise from your Graves and Proliferate
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Angelic Judgment [