Now, what I'm speaking of isn't of which is better or more competitive. What I'm trying to do is get some insight from various people who played with one or both as their commander or have played against them to get a better feel for them and dispel any misconceptions I may have about them.
Am I asking about what cards you use or what combo will win me a lot games? No.
What I am asking is what was it like using these either or both these two. Was it frustrating at times? Did it take you a lot to figure what worked and what didn't? What was it like going up against one them? Basically, your feel for them.
As it stands, this is who I view them:
Anafenza, the Foremost- Anafenza has some things that do speak to me. She is well costed, able to come down turn 3 or sooner and is a 4/4. Her ability to put a counter on a tapped creature when she attacks is nice but not really what I'm concerned with. Her graveyard hate on my opponents' creatures is the effect that I really care about. As such, Anafenza is appealing because she os a good creature with a respectable ability and awesome colors to boot. Her capability is general enough that I can really work from the ground up with the deck strategy. As such, I was thinking of building a creature based deck around her that would combine a good number of combat based effects (lifelink, deathtouch, first strike, infect) with lower cmc creatures (EX: Mirran Crusader) and some higher cmc creatures that really tip things in my favor on the board. (EX: Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite.
The only major disadvantage I can see is that without a clear-cut strategy provided by Anafenza, it be easy to unbalance the deck and could lead me around in circles trying to optimize or improve it.
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant- Sidisi is another one whose colors I love and whose ability I can get behind, since I used run decks that had a lot to do with tokens. However, Sidisi's potential combined with her method of generating tokens demands a use of the graveyard that goes beyond my level of experience. I've looked at many a primer for her and you know what? I've come to one conclusion: Sidisi feels like a balancing act. She's in many ways, the opposite of Anafenza. Sidisi has a clear goal and strategy to work around and a useful ability.
The problem comes in the limitations and criteria of her ability. I'll only get tokens from creatures going from the library to the grave. In addition, no matter how many creatures go, I get only 1 zombie. This means that other support cards will be necessary to maximize her ability and recursion to get back the cards I really need that end up in the graveyard. Now, don't get me wrong. Her play style would be something new and refreshing and give me something to work on for a while. However, I just feel...intimidated by the scope of everything that I have to pull together to make her work.
So that's what I think of the two. I have enough resources, store credit and money to really go for one at the moment. But I feel like I'm walking blind. At the very least, I'm hoping this thread can at least help figure out which one is going to be more suited for the trouble (at least in theory).
NOTE: I'm really just for your experiences. I don't need you to give me in depth rundown on cards that make your deck or the like. Just what have you felt building, playing with or against them.
I'm always searching for a good enchantress general. I built the deck with Anafenza at the helm.
Huge relief to have a cheap general. Early beater (first time I used a legend that cheap), booster of Birds of Paradise (weakest ability, but the counter sticking around can be nice!), and defender against Sharuum shenanigans.
Another friend built her as stax. Blue is great, but I think that color combo is the best.
How much graveyard hate is in your playgroup? Do people consistently include stuff like rest in peace, grafdigger's cage, nihil spellbomb or bojuka bog? That is the main reason I took apart my Sidisi deck; people consistently shut down my strategies.
I think you should run Anafenza; while she doesn't have a clear-cut direction for you to build, she also doesn't have the weakness to graveyard hate that Sidisi has.
How much graveyard hate is in your playgroup? Do people consistently include stuff like rest in peace, grafdigger's cage, nihil spellbomb or bojuka bog? That is the main reason I took apart my Sidisi deck; people consistently shut down my strategies.
I think you should run Anafenza; while she doesn't have a clear-cut direction for you to build, she also doesn't have the weakness to graveyard hate that Sidisi has.
There isn't a whole lot of graveyard hate in my meta at the moment. However, from what I'm seeing, that may change in the future due to my Scion deck kinda taking over our little group...
I didn't originally bring up the point of Sidisi falling a part due to grave hate because I was more concerned of how difficult it is to run her even under normal circumstances. But, man, now that I think about it, that makes things even MORE complicated! Because now, I'd have to figure out a way to balance out her build while having contingencies and that now sounds like a headache.
As for Anafenza, you're right. She doesn't really have a glaring weakness that shuts down the operation of the deck and even if she's taken off the field, the deck I had in mind with her doesn't really care in the long run and she's so low costed that recasting her (if needed) isn't an issue.
I've been playing Sidisi for a while. Now, I don't play at a very high level (or cost), so I can't talk about that, but I can say that I've enjoyed her about as much as any general I've played with. (Can't comment on 'Fenza, never seen anyone play her.)
Her ability demans a lot of creatures -- a lot of creatures -- because it seriously is awful to miss with her ability. I started hitting at a rate I liked at around 40ish creatures. You'll need to get used to not doing things with targeted removal, etc. (Now, I don't own Damnations and such, which should probably go in anyone despite the disadvantage, but eh.) Same goes for spells: cut what you thought were staples and add spells with flashback, unearth, dredge, Wonder, etc.
Don't play mill cards that aren't good on their own. Splinterfright is amazing, Nyx Weaver isn't great but is decent last-ditch noncreature recursion, etc. Also, this is obvious, but repeatability trumps number -- no Traumatize. This does require tweaking to get right, but generally she's alright.
PROTECTION: Also, judge by your playgroup. I'd guess about 90% of the time I can attack with Sidisi for several turns with no protection or evasion needed, because there'll be someone without a big enough creature or who'll trade hits with me -- thus, I need less mill cards. YMMV. Worst comes to worse, they can't deal with her if she stays back and lets other sources mill you.
GRAVE HATE ENDS THE GAME: Myth, sorta. People worry that grave hate hurts -- and trust me, it does, it really does. (PARTICULARLY when it's that ONE GUY who Restores YOUR OWN Bojuka Bog and gravewipes you. Grr.) So diversify -- build around tokens too, put in Laboratory Maniac, etc. It's not that big a deal if you've gotten enough value out of it already -- just be aware of your options, and what you would lose if they were gone.
Pro tip: If you opponents are not playing anything that cares about your graveyard order -- and if they are, they're only doing it to troll you -- then usually you'll get no problem rearrangiing your graveyard how you like. It helps everyone, not just you, parse it. I recommend a 4-pile system of Lands, Creatures, Nonland/Noncreature, and a fourth of Has Ability From Graveyard (dredge, flashback,... etc). It feels like a pain to do with every mill, but seriously, it makes missing simple things so much better. ("Oops, looks like Wonder was here! Sorry 'bout that last attack. Oh, and hey, btw -- just noticed I actually had some dredge in grave, so I'm going to go ahead and replace those Nekusar triggers with dredges, okay? Sorry I didn't notice that 3 turns ago.") It really is so much better, I promise you you'll notice if you focus on mill and recursion.
All in all: Yes, it requires tweaking. A lot of tweaking. Also, it's actually a pretty big adjustment to playing with someone who integrally cares about what's in your graveyard (depending on build, of course, you might focus more on zombie tribal, token swarm, or any number of other things). I don't notice anymore, but I do realize that when I hand it to someone who's never played it before, they suddenly have ten times more things to worry about, new threats to worry about, and things that used to seem bad now being positive developments.
That said: To me, I enjoy few things more than graveyard play, simply because it gives you options I feel you can't get anywhere else (except, perhaps, playing good cards... but I've no budget for it. Anyway). I rarely have a turn without something to do, and almost literally never run into the problem of bad topdecks because hey, y'know, I got my second hand right here and there's 50 cards in it. It takes tweaking, yes, but I enjoy the feeling of really knowing a deck, and working on it until it's just right. And you will never otherwise know the true satisfaction of playing the whole game, fighting viciously with tokens and sac loops and gravehate, until you're finally beaten back and low on cards in deck... and then randomly winning off a Laboratory Maniac for absolutely no good reason at all.
Good luck! Sorry if this is more text than you wanted
"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Good luck! Sorry if this is more text than you wanted Smile
Thank you for all that! This is the kind of response, I was really hoping to get. It really tells me, to a good degree, what I'm in for if I choose to build one or the other.
You did a good job of paint the Sidisi in a good light while telling me where the bumps come in.
Seriously, I can't stress how much of a help that was.
Well, if it wasn't clear before, it's definitely clear now: I think Anafenza is who I will go with. And this is for several reasons:
1). Her colors are awesome.
2). Her CMC is low and easy to pay.
3). A deck based around her isn't going to fall apart due to one method of play.
4). I'd have a lot of freedom to form my own strategy.
On the topic of Sidisi: I'll never say she's bad or the like. I just think that when I have a little more time and resources, I'll back into her at a later date. She's just a puzzle that I'm not in the right position to try and solve for now.
I found Anafenza made for a good toolbox where you can choose a theme or strategy, in my case hatebears, and her colours give you access to everything you need to toolbox.
Since you seemed to have decided on your direction already, I'll keep my post brief. I've played a Sidisi deck for awhile now (it's my longest running and favorite deck by a wide margin) and I can confirm that most of what CalvinSchwa said is definitely true. The only thing I'd want to emphasize is that if you build her right she is not debilitated by grave hate. If you are running specific combo pieces to attain victory, or if most of your win conditions rely on the graveyard getting and staying plump, then yes, a well time gravewipe can seriously hamper you. However, if you mostly approach the use of your graveyard as a source of card advantage then gravehate is merely just annoying (forcing you to play with one hand instead of two, or in other words, to play "fair" :P). It's often emphasized not to overextend into a wrath effect; the same principle is true for graveyard abuse. It's useful to have some cards that are explosive off of a large graveyard, but don't put all your eggs in that basket.
Also, since it seems you are working with limited resources, if you ever get back to building Sidisi one day it might be useful to check out the following budget builds for some inspiration:
Anafenza is a boss. There are few generals that are cheap on mana and also relevant to play at any point of the game. I have played against Anafenza w Boonweaver combo, classic value, and one Infect deck. All of them used the General a lot, and were good at using her to present obstacles.
I've played a similar general, Kalitas, a good bit. The effect is really good as an equalizer, one of those much sought after effects in EDH that gets every deck to play fair. So, it tends to play much better the stronger the opponents decks are.
Also, basically any cards in Anafenza over $5 are going to be staples for those colors. You don't need to spend your budget on something like Entomb, Natural Order, Academy Rector, Nether Void, so on, where you may not want them in every deck. There are a few expensive "hate bears" like Linvala, but mostly the strategy is to use disruption and some staple threats like Sun Titan, and some staple grease cards like Birds of Paradise, Phyrexian Arena, and DRS.
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Am I asking about what cards you use or what combo will win me a lot games? No.
What I am asking is what was it like using these either or both these two. Was it frustrating at times? Did it take you a lot to figure what worked and what didn't? What was it like going up against one them? Basically, your feel for them.
As it stands, this is who I view them:
Anafenza, the Foremost- Anafenza has some things that do speak to me. She is well costed, able to come down turn 3 or sooner and is a 4/4. Her ability to put a counter on a tapped creature when she attacks is nice but not really what I'm concerned with. Her graveyard hate on my opponents' creatures is the effect that I really care about. As such, Anafenza is appealing because she os a good creature with a respectable ability and awesome colors to boot. Her capability is general enough that I can really work from the ground up with the deck strategy. As such, I was thinking of building a creature based deck around her that would combine a good number of combat based effects (lifelink, deathtouch, first strike, infect) with lower cmc creatures (EX: Mirran Crusader) and some higher cmc creatures that really tip things in my favor on the board. (EX: Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite.
The only major disadvantage I can see is that without a clear-cut strategy provided by Anafenza, it be easy to unbalance the deck and could lead me around in circles trying to optimize or improve it.
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant- Sidisi is another one whose colors I love and whose ability I can get behind, since I used run decks that had a lot to do with tokens. However, Sidisi's potential combined with her method of generating tokens demands a use of the graveyard that goes beyond my level of experience. I've looked at many a primer for her and you know what? I've come to one conclusion: Sidisi feels like a balancing act. She's in many ways, the opposite of Anafenza. Sidisi has a clear goal and strategy to work around and a useful ability.
The problem comes in the limitations and criteria of her ability. I'll only get tokens from creatures going from the library to the grave. In addition, no matter how many creatures go, I get only 1 zombie. This means that other support cards will be necessary to maximize her ability and recursion to get back the cards I really need that end up in the graveyard. Now, don't get me wrong. Her play style would be something new and refreshing and give me something to work on for a while. However, I just feel...intimidated by the scope of everything that I have to pull together to make her work.
So that's what I think of the two. I have enough resources, store credit and money to really go for one at the moment. But I feel like I'm walking blind. At the very least, I'm hoping this thread can at least help figure out which one is going to be more suited for the trouble (at least in theory).
NOTE: I'm really just for your experiences. I don't need you to give me in depth rundown on cards that make your deck or the like. Just what have you felt building, playing with or against them.
BK'rrik Goodstuff
GWSythis Enchantress
URYusri Coin Flip
BRGKorvold Tokens
BGUYarok Lands Matter
WUBRaffine Looter
Huge relief to have a cheap general. Early beater (first time I used a legend that cheap), booster of Birds of Paradise (weakest ability, but the counter sticking around can be nice!), and defender against Sharuum shenanigans.
Another friend built her as stax. Blue is great, but I think that color combo is the best.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
I think you should run Anafenza; while she doesn't have a clear-cut direction for you to build, she also doesn't have the weakness to graveyard hate that Sidisi has.
There isn't a whole lot of graveyard hate in my meta at the moment. However, from what I'm seeing, that may change in the future due to my Scion deck kinda taking over our little group...
I didn't originally bring up the point of Sidisi falling a part due to grave hate because I was more concerned of how difficult it is to run her even under normal circumstances. But, man, now that I think about it, that makes things even MORE complicated! Because now, I'd have to figure out a way to balance out her build while having contingencies and that now sounds like a headache.
As for Anafenza, you're right. She doesn't really have a glaring weakness that shuts down the operation of the deck and even if she's taken off the field, the deck I had in mind with her doesn't really care in the long run and she's so low costed that recasting her (if needed) isn't an issue.
BK'rrik Goodstuff
GWSythis Enchantress
URYusri Coin Flip
BRGKorvold Tokens
BGUYarok Lands Matter
WUBRaffine Looter
Her ability demans a lot of creatures -- a lot of creatures -- because it seriously is awful to miss with her ability. I started hitting at a rate I liked at around 40ish creatures. You'll need to get used to not doing things with targeted removal, etc. (Now, I don't own Damnations and such, which should probably go in anyone despite the disadvantage, but eh.) Same goes for spells: cut what you thought were staples and add spells with flashback, unearth, dredge, Wonder, etc.
Don't play mill cards that aren't good on their own. Splinterfright is amazing, Nyx Weaver isn't great but is decent last-ditch noncreature recursion, etc. Also, this is obvious, but repeatability trumps number -- no Traumatize. This does require tweaking to get right, but generally she's alright.
PROTECTION: Also, judge by your playgroup. I'd guess about 90% of the time I can attack with Sidisi for several turns with no protection or evasion needed, because there'll be someone without a big enough creature or who'll trade hits with me -- thus, I need less mill cards. YMMV. Worst comes to worse, they can't deal with her if she stays back and lets other sources mill you.
GRAVE HATE ENDS THE GAME: Myth, sorta. People worry that grave hate hurts -- and trust me, it does, it really does. (PARTICULARLY when it's that ONE GUY who Restores YOUR OWN Bojuka Bog and gravewipes you. Grr.) So diversify -- build around tokens too, put in Laboratory Maniac, etc. It's not that big a deal if you've gotten enough value out of it already -- just be aware of your options, and what you would lose if they were gone.
Pro tip: If you opponents are not playing anything that cares about your graveyard order -- and if they are, they're only doing it to troll you -- then usually you'll get no problem rearrangiing your graveyard how you like. It helps everyone, not just you, parse it. I recommend a 4-pile system of Lands, Creatures, Nonland/Noncreature, and a fourth of Has Ability From Graveyard (dredge, flashback,... etc). It feels like a pain to do with every mill, but seriously, it makes missing simple things so much better. ("Oops, looks like Wonder was here! Sorry 'bout that last attack. Oh, and hey, btw -- just noticed I actually had some dredge in grave, so I'm going to go ahead and replace those Nekusar triggers with dredges, okay? Sorry I didn't notice that 3 turns ago.") It really is so much better, I promise you you'll notice if you focus on mill and recursion.
All in all: Yes, it requires tweaking. A lot of tweaking. Also, it's actually a pretty big adjustment to playing with someone who integrally cares about what's in your graveyard (depending on build, of course, you might focus more on zombie tribal, token swarm, or any number of other things). I don't notice anymore, but I do realize that when I hand it to someone who's never played it before, they suddenly have ten times more things to worry about, new threats to worry about, and things that used to seem bad now being positive developments.
That said: To me, I enjoy few things more than graveyard play, simply because it gives you options I feel you can't get anywhere else (except, perhaps, playing good cards... but I've no budget for it. Anyway). I rarely have a turn without something to do, and almost literally never run into the problem of bad topdecks because hey, y'know, I got my second hand right here and there's 50 cards in it. It takes tweaking, yes, but I enjoy the feeling of really knowing a deck, and working on it until it's just right. And you will never otherwise know the true satisfaction of playing the whole game, fighting viciously with tokens and sac loops and gravehate, until you're finally beaten back and low on cards in deck... and then randomly winning off a Laboratory Maniac for absolutely no good reason at all.
Good luck! Sorry if this is more text than you wanted
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Thank you for all that! This is the kind of response, I was really hoping to get. It really tells me, to a good degree, what I'm in for if I choose to build one or the other.
You did a good job of paint the Sidisi in a good light while telling me where the bumps come in.
Seriously, I can't stress how much of a help that was.
BK'rrik Goodstuff
GWSythis Enchantress
URYusri Coin Flip
BRGKorvold Tokens
BGUYarok Lands Matter
WUBRaffine Looter
1). Her colors are awesome.
2). Her CMC is low and easy to pay.
3). A deck based around her isn't going to fall apart due to one method of play.
4). I'd have a lot of freedom to form my own strategy.
On the topic of Sidisi: I'll never say she's bad or the like. I just think that when I have a little more time and resources, I'll back into her at a later date. She's just a puzzle that I'm not in the right position to try and solve for now.
BK'rrik Goodstuff
GWSythis Enchantress
URYusri Coin Flip
BRGKorvold Tokens
BGUYarok Lands Matter
WUBRaffine Looter
Necromantic Team Building
The Care Bear Stare
The Strange Investigations of Dr. Circu (WIP)
Also, since it seems you are working with limited resources, if you ever get back to building Sidisi one day it might be useful to check out the following budget builds for some inspiration:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/26-extreme-budget-idisi-edh/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/i-call-her-vera-sidisi-edh/
I've played a similar general, Kalitas, a good bit. The effect is really good as an equalizer, one of those much sought after effects in EDH that gets every deck to play fair. So, it tends to play much better the stronger the opponents decks are.
Also, basically any cards in Anafenza over $5 are going to be staples for those colors. You don't need to spend your budget on something like Entomb, Natural Order, Academy Rector, Nether Void, so on, where you may not want them in every deck. There are a few expensive "hate bears" like Linvala, but mostly the strategy is to use disruption and some staple threats like Sun Titan, and some staple grease cards like Birds of Paradise, Phyrexian Arena, and DRS.