So I told a guy on MWS to go fly a kite last night when he cast Contract from Below in his Heir to Blackblade monoblack deck. I told him it was banned from all formats, to which he said it was not banned in EDH, and then he quit.
Now obviously you cannot play any of the Ante cards in any game that isn't being played for Ante, as per the rule instituted on the cards themselves, which states that you remove them from your deck before playing if not playing for ante.
I have been playing since Ante, and indeed I even played for ante as a kid, and my recollection of the Ante rules in regards to starting a game are as such:
1. Deck Presentation
2. Decide whether playing for Ante, if yes move to deciding who goes first, if not remove Ante cards from deck.
3. Decide who plays first.
4. Cut, Ante if playing for Ante, draw, mulligans.
5. Turn 1 begins.
Now when we were playing for Ante we didn't replace the Ante cards with other cards, meaning we presented 60 card decks, but often played slightly fewer when someone wasnt down to ante up. This is, as I recall, the reason that Ante cards were originally banned from sanctioned constructed play, that they were a degenerate means to circumvent the 60 card deck rule. And that is why all 9 of them are specifically listed on the banned list of every sanctioned format, not because of any confusion around playing for Ante, but because the printed text of any card can break the Magic game Rules and in this case Ante cards break the minimum size rules the same way relentless rats breaks the number of copies in a deck rule. Recently it was decided that it is essential to the game that this be the ultimate source of ruling for the game, the printed text of cards, over any printed game rules, and this was extended to include format imposed rules such as the ones we have in EDH. Specifically this means that the Oracle ruling on Relentless Rats was changed to state that its wording does indeed allow it to be played in multiples in EDH despite the formats singleton nature.
So, if Ante cards aren't on the EDH banned list, and No ruling (to my knowledge) has ever errattaed them to force their replacement pre-play (not pre-game), only their removal, then what stops me from having Ante cards in my generals colors in my 100 card EDH list? I argue that as the rules stand I could have Ante cards in my 100, and simply remove them at the beginning of the game after sideboarding. This has crazy potential to be a degenerate thing for the format (think 97 card monoblue, or 92 card r/b goblins, or even 96 card Rafiq) so it should be adressed. Hell, a Jund colored deck could run all 9 and cut to 91!
PS, While I'm on here I want to cast my vote for the unbanning of Metalworker! He is not as degenerate without tolarian acadamy! We should have him back!
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Currently Playing:
Standard:
U/G TurboTitans
B/G TurboNixilis
Extended:
Preeminant Watch
RDW
(trying to hatch an Extended deck to abuse Emrakul...)
Legacy:
Vial Goblins mono red
Trisomy 21- Loam Control
EDH:
Brion Stoutarm- Fling Drazi
Rafiq of the Many Huge Show and Tell Dudes
"EDH is played with vintage legal cards, with two exceptions:
- cards are legal as of their set's prerelease
- Shahrazad is legal for play in EDH"
From the website.
Ante cards are not legal in EDH.
So the Banned list is not comprehensive then? It's actually the "Additionally Banned" list? I saw this statement, but then didn't see the cards on the list and thought it was some kind of oversite. Perhaps it would be more clear to All if the "Banned List" included all cards banned in the format, like it does for every other format.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Standard:
U/G TurboTitans
B/G TurboNixilis
Extended:
Preeminant Watch
RDW
(trying to hatch an Extended deck to abuse Emrakul...)
Legacy:
Vial Goblins mono red
Trisomy 21- Loam Control
EDH:
Brion Stoutarm- Fling Drazi
Rafiq of the Many Huge Show and Tell Dudes
So the Banned list is not comprehensive then? It's actually the "Additionally Banned" list? I saw this statement, but then didn't see the cards on the list and thought it was some kind of oversite. Perhaps it would be more clear to All if the "Banned List" included all cards banned in the format, like it does for every other format.
Actually, the rules are pretty explicit. They mentioned that "EDH is played with vintage legal cards" and three main classes of cards are banned in Vintage: -
Ante Cards
Manual Dexterity Cards
Silver Bordered Cards
As an additional point, while it is true that ante cards are not legal for play in EDH, saying that they are "banned" makes as much sense as saying that something like, say, "Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker is banned in EDH". Imagine how long will the B/R list for Standard look like if DCI is forced to list all nonstandard cards there. It may seem like semantics but no, none of the above three classes of cards are "banned" or "additionally banned" from EDH; they are simply "not legal" for EDH.
We allow silver bordered cards upon playgroup approval.
Ante cards I am gong to try and get "legalized" but only in them exiling themselves or additional ante cards. For instance if a card is added to the ante and forces an opponent to ante an additional card then both cards are exiled rather than being at risk.
We allow silver bordered cards upon playgroup approval.
Ante cards I am gong to try and get "legalized" but only in them exiling themselves or additional ante cards. For instance if a card is added to the ante and forces an opponent to ante an additional card then both cards are exiled rather than being at risk.
Technically, subject to applicable laws, your playgroup will have the final say on the house rules -- you may even legalise Black Lotus in your playgroup. However, as far as the OP's question on the official rules goes, antes, silver-bordered cards and manual dexterity cards are not legal for EDH.
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Now obviously you cannot play any of the Ante cards in any game that isn't being played for Ante, as per the rule instituted on the cards themselves, which states that you remove them from your deck before playing if not playing for ante.
I have been playing since Ante, and indeed I even played for ante as a kid, and my recollection of the Ante rules in regards to starting a game are as such:
1. Deck Presentation
2. Decide whether playing for Ante, if yes move to deciding who goes first, if not remove Ante cards from deck.
3. Decide who plays first.
4. Cut, Ante if playing for Ante, draw, mulligans.
5. Turn 1 begins.
Now when we were playing for Ante we didn't replace the Ante cards with other cards, meaning we presented 60 card decks, but often played slightly fewer when someone wasnt down to ante up. This is, as I recall, the reason that Ante cards were originally banned from sanctioned constructed play, that they were a degenerate means to circumvent the 60 card deck rule. And that is why all 9 of them are specifically listed on the banned list of every sanctioned format, not because of any confusion around playing for Ante, but because the printed text of any card can break the Magic game Rules and in this case Ante cards break the minimum size rules the same way relentless rats breaks the number of copies in a deck rule. Recently it was decided that it is essential to the game that this be the ultimate source of ruling for the game, the printed text of cards, over any printed game rules, and this was extended to include format imposed rules such as the ones we have in EDH. Specifically this means that the Oracle ruling on Relentless Rats was changed to state that its wording does indeed allow it to be played in multiples in EDH despite the formats singleton nature.
So, if Ante cards aren't on the EDH banned list, and No ruling (to my knowledge) has ever errattaed them to force their replacement pre-play (not pre-game), only their removal, then what stops me from having Ante cards in my generals colors in my 100 card EDH list? I argue that as the rules stand I could have Ante cards in my 100, and simply remove them at the beginning of the game after sideboarding. This has crazy potential to be a degenerate thing for the format (think 97 card monoblue, or 92 card r/b goblins, or even 96 card Rafiq) so it should be adressed. Hell, a Jund colored deck could run all 9 and cut to 91!
Hopefully I am missing something here! Do tell.
The EDH banned list: http://www.dragonhighlander.net/rules.php
PS, While I'm on here I want to cast my vote for the unbanning of Metalworker! He is not as degenerate without tolarian acadamy! We should have him back!
Standard:
U/G TurboTitans
B/G TurboNixilis
Extended:
Preeminant Watch
RDW
(trying to hatch an Extended deck to abuse Emrakul...)
Legacy:
Vial Goblins mono red
Trisomy 21- Loam Control
EDH:
Brion Stoutarm- Fling Drazi
Rafiq of the Many Huge Show and Tell Dudes
Peasant:
MBC
Bant aggro
- cards are legal as of their set's prerelease
- Shahrazad is legal for play in EDH"
From the website.
Ante cards are not legal in EDH.
EDH decks:
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
Khalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet
Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
So the Banned list is not comprehensive then? It's actually the "Additionally Banned" list? I saw this statement, but then didn't see the cards on the list and thought it was some kind of oversite. Perhaps it would be more clear to All if the "Banned List" included all cards banned in the format, like it does for every other format.
Standard:
U/G TurboTitans
B/G TurboNixilis
Extended:
Preeminant Watch
RDW
(trying to hatch an Extended deck to abuse Emrakul...)
Legacy:
Vial Goblins mono red
Trisomy 21- Loam Control
EDH:
Brion Stoutarm- Fling Drazi
Rafiq of the Many Huge Show and Tell Dudes
Peasant:
MBC
Bant aggro
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Actually, the rules are pretty explicit. They mentioned that "EDH is played with vintage legal cards" and three main classes of cards are banned in Vintage: -
As an additional point, while it is true that ante cards are not legal for play in EDH, saying that they are "banned" makes as much sense as saying that something like, say, "Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker is banned in EDH". Imagine how long will the B/R list for Standard look like if DCI is forced to list all nonstandard cards there. It may seem like semantics but no, none of the above three classes of cards are "banned" or "additionally banned" from EDH; they are simply "not legal" for EDH.
edit: what fzian said
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
Ante cards I am gong to try and get "legalized" but only in them exiling themselves or additional ante cards. For instance if a card is added to the ante and forces an opponent to ante an additional card then both cards are exiled rather than being at risk.
Technically, subject to applicable laws, your playgroup will have the final say on the house rules -- you may even legalise Black Lotus in your playgroup. However, as far as the OP's question on the official rules goes, antes, silver-bordered cards and manual dexterity cards are not legal for EDH.