I didn't see a lot of threads on this, but if there is already one active please lead the way.
Basically, I often join a group of folks that are casual vintage players. They own some of the best cards in the game, but are not the typical Turn 2-3 kill deck builders. In fact house rules prevent some of the mechanics that are typically associated with vintage multiplayer.
I often look around for deck ideas, but a lot of deck ideas out there are:
Vintage for single player, not scalable
Standard / Extended for multi player (not competitve enough)
Vintage for multi player but combo based (infinite amount of something)
In case I'm not the only one out there participating in this kind of group, I wanted to see if other folks out there have similar groups and deck ideas they'd like to share. For reference, here are some of the house rules/patterns that are usually folowed
Must follow DCI restricted / legal Vintage lists
Combo mechanics that generate arbitrary numbers of something are only allowed to generate 2 of whatever base increment is per round. Infinite tokens, mana, life, damage, turns, etc all generate twice whatever their base amount would be.
Decks must have a reasonable win condition. This is debateable, but if a deck appears to simply be play-to-annoy, it will get negative attention.
Some spells must be hardcast (player must spend the appropriate mana to play them). I'm not going to add the whole list, but cards like Progenitus are top candidates.
Everything else is fair game. I'd appreciate some deck ideas if anyone has any. I'll soon add a couple that have moderate success for reference, but P9, orig dual lands, library, etc are all commonly played (often with proxies)
I guess the question is why? If you are playing with all of the power cards and duals etc, why would you choose to not play a good deck?
Why are those the house rules? I didn't create them, so I can't say for sure. But within those rules we do try to play the best decks possible - everyone is aggressively playing to win, or to eliminate the biggest board threat.
The problem lies in the amount of restrictions placed. What you want is no longer a vintage deck, but rather a deck for an variant format. For example,tinker and oath of Druids solely exist to bypass casting costs and put an otherwise uncastable creature (llike progenitus) into play... but because of rule #4, oath and tinker might as well be banned. So, in essence, thiese rules ban certain cards in addition to the already established B&R cards, which means it isn't vintage anymore.
The problem lies in the amount of restrictions placed. What you want is no longer a vintage deck, but rather a deck for an variant format. For example,tinker and oath of Druids solely exist to bypass casting costs and put an otherwise uncastable creature (llike progenitus) into play... but because of rule #4, oath and tinker might as well be banned. So, in essence, thiese rules ban certain cards in addition to the already established B&R cards, which means it isn't vintage anymore.
Admittedly some cards are less useful. But for the sake of getting some ideas, assume Progenitus is the only creature with this restriction, so Tinkering out a Darksteel Colossus or Inkwell Leviathan are still perfectly acceptable.
Given that limitation, there should be plenty of decks out there that don't rely on infinite combos (2) or contain Progenitus (4). Even rule 3 is very lightly enforced because it's usually easy to argue that you have a win condition.
Hopefully you aren't saying the rules above displace 100% of the vintage multiplayer decks out there, and folks who do have similar decks here can post for discussion.
For consideration, here is a sample of one that's worked okay for me:
You'll notice the lack of some vintage cards as I haven't worked them in yet, and the larger size - almost 80. Some of the longer games can go 15+ turns, and chewing through 4-5 cards per turn uses up a lot of the library.
I don't think you understand though. What you are proposing is not Vintage. It's a variant or casual format. Just because you choose to use the P9 or Libraries, etc, does not make a format "Vintage."
You are placing House Rules on an existing format with a strict set of rules already.
I don't think you understand though. What you are proposing is not Vintage. It's a variant or casual format. Just because you choose to use the P9 or Libraries, etc, does not make a format "Vintage."
You are placing House Rules on an existing format with a strict set of rules already.
Unfortunately, I have to move this to Casual.
I would post another thread on Vintage asking for multiplayer deck ideas (forgetting the house rules), but it seems anything related to FFA multiplayer is by nature Casual, so it probably fits here better, thanks.
Is it the multiplayer aspect that makes it casual, or the lack of infinite combos / progenitus?
Both.
For example, it is virtually impossible to play any tendrils-based deck in multiplayer. And you'll be hard pressed to find a vintage tournament that doesn't have an infinite turn deck via timevault. I have a feeling non-infinite combo decks like ichorid is unplayable in multiplayer as well.
In other words: houserules=casual. Don't take it to mean that casual=crappy. It just means that the current competitive environment isn't multiplayer nor has progenitus banned.
Also, because it is house rules, you cannot really expect a truly competitive deck to be suggested by those who aren't in your playgroup. Competitive decks are molded by the metagame, and in your metagame combo is non-existent... which isn't the case of vintage.
To illustrate, let's take a vintage non-combo deck: nine sphere aggro (or, lately, thirteen sphere aggro). In theory, this deck meets your requirements perfectly: no infinite combo, no progenitus. BUT... one of the strengths of sphere aggro is that it hoses many combo decks. Cards like thorn of amethyst simply whack decks that aren't creature decks. It whacks combo, it whacks non workshop control. In your meta, sphere aggro won't do as well, because _no one_ is playing some sort of combo, and non workshop control doesn't do well in multiplayers so people won't be playing that either. Sure, someone can suggest playing sphere aggro, but he can't honestly say that it is competitive unless he's been playing in tournaments under your house rules.
Anyway... try playing wokshop control (ie stax). It _should_ do well whatever the actual meta.
Excellent points mondu - even if a deck is complaint with the house rules here, it's advantage may be that it beats decks which are not complaint, and therefore is not competitive. It's a variant format at best, casual is probably the appropriate place for it. FFA Multiplayer threads seem to land here anyway, so that makes sense.
I'll try to edit the original post to clean this thread up so we have some deck discussion.
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Basically, I often join a group of folks that are casual vintage players. They own some of the best cards in the game, but are not the typical Turn 2-3 kill deck builders. In fact house rules prevent some of the mechanics that are typically associated with vintage multiplayer.
I often look around for deck ideas, but a lot of deck ideas out there are:
In case I'm not the only one out there participating in this kind of group, I wanted to see if other folks out there have similar groups and deck ideas they'd like to share. For reference, here are some of the house rules/patterns that are usually folowed
Regards
If your answer is fun, than this thread should probably be pointed to the casual area of this forum.
Why are those the house rules? I didn't create them, so I can't say for sure. But within those rules we do try to play the best decks possible - everyone is aggressively playing to win, or to eliminate the biggest board threat.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Admittedly some cards are less useful. But for the sake of getting some ideas, assume Progenitus is the only creature with this restriction, so Tinkering out a Darksteel Colossus or Inkwell Leviathan are still perfectly acceptable.
Given that limitation, there should be plenty of decks out there that don't rely on infinite combos (2) or contain Progenitus (4). Even rule 3 is very lightly enforced because it's usually easy to argue that you have a win condition.
Hopefully you aren't saying the rules above displace 100% of the vintage multiplayer decks out there, and folks who do have similar decks here can post for discussion.
For consideration, here is a sample of one that's worked okay for me:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Beacon of Immortality
1 Vindicate
1 Punish Ignorance
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Serene Offering
1 Offering to Asha
1 Mana Drain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Reverse Damage
1 Sorin Markov
2 Absorb
2 Silence
Artifacts/Enhancements
1 Indestructibility
1 Well of Lost Dreams
1 Angelic Chorus
1 Proper Burial
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mind's Eye
3 Sunbeam Spellbomb
3 Sanguine Bond
1 Divinity of Pride
2 Blind Hunter
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Auriok Champion
3 Kokusho, the Evening Star
3 Baneslayer Angel
4 Wall of Reverence
Lands
1 Dromar's Cavern
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Vesuva
2 Maze of Ith
2 Arcane Sanctum
3 Sejiri Refuge
3 Diamond Valley
4 Scrubland
4 Tundra
4 Fetid Heath
You'll notice the lack of some vintage cards as I haven't worked them in yet, and the larger size - almost 80. Some of the longer games can go 15+ turns, and chewing through 4-5 cards per turn uses up a lot of the library.
Regards,
You are placing House Rules on an existing format with a strict set of rules already.
Unfortunately, I have to move this to Casual.
I would post another thread on Vintage asking for multiplayer deck ideas (forgetting the house rules), but it seems anything related to FFA multiplayer is by nature Casual, so it probably fits here better, thanks.
Both.
For example, it is virtually impossible to play any tendrils-based deck in multiplayer. And you'll be hard pressed to find a vintage tournament that doesn't have an infinite turn deck via timevault. I have a feeling non-infinite combo decks like ichorid is unplayable in multiplayer as well.
In other words: houserules=casual. Don't take it to mean that casual=crappy. It just means that the current competitive environment isn't multiplayer nor has progenitus banned.
Also, because it is house rules, you cannot really expect a truly competitive deck to be suggested by those who aren't in your playgroup. Competitive decks are molded by the metagame, and in your metagame combo is non-existent... which isn't the case of vintage.
To illustrate, let's take a vintage non-combo deck: nine sphere aggro (or, lately, thirteen sphere aggro). In theory, this deck meets your requirements perfectly: no infinite combo, no progenitus. BUT... one of the strengths of sphere aggro is that it hoses many combo decks. Cards like thorn of amethyst simply whack decks that aren't creature decks. It whacks combo, it whacks non workshop control. In your meta, sphere aggro won't do as well, because _no one_ is playing some sort of combo, and non workshop control doesn't do well in multiplayers so people won't be playing that either. Sure, someone can suggest playing sphere aggro, but he can't honestly say that it is competitive unless he's been playing in tournaments under your house rules.
Anyway... try playing wokshop control (ie stax). It _should_ do well whatever the actual meta.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
I'll try to edit the original post to clean this thread up so we have some deck discussion.