This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Good Game: Worldwake in Limited. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.
lightkeeper of emeria actually seems pretty good, without kicker its a flying ox with the stash. And if your really getting your face beaten in you can drop your other dudes around the same curve and then play this later with the multikick to recover some life
Also funny story about brink of disaster being not that awesome at all, my opponent played it on my green red manland that already had a few counters on it so i untapped, animated the land and played sejiri steppe giving it pro black and proceded to beat face. The card is kind of a weaker befoul
Aether Tradewinds isn't "meh" at all... kills Zendikons, supports landfall and offers massive tempo swings if you save one of your dudes from removal with it. Even chump blocking an attacker and bouncing your blocker plus something expensive on their side is pretty strong.
Horizon Drake's protection from lands isn't irrelevant, since Zendikons are effectively lands.
Re: Tomb Hex - Actually, three mana for a Disfigure is still fine (although as you point out the card is waaay better than that).
Re: Cosi's Ravager - With landfall cards you have to ask "How many more lands will I play?". Here the answer is 2-4, which is not enough damage to make a 2/2 for 4 playable. If for some reason the answer is significantly higher (your deck's controllish, it's built around landfall or you have lots of Zendikons) it might just about make the cut on a bad day as Cosi's Really Slow Lava Axe.
Or if you're not. 2/2 flyers for 4 are a staple in Limited and 2 extra toughness makes this tough to remove. I'll likely pick this quite high even in aggressive White builds.
Quote from waterboytkd »
Explore. Hard to say if this is good or not.
Yeah, you got that right!
Personally I'm hoping it turns out to be bad since I called it as bad as soon as it was spoiled (essentially due to how infrequent it will be that it does anything remotely significant)... but LSV gave it a 3.0.
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(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Anowon, the Ruin Sage is a Bomb.
The abyss is powerful even if you don't have other ways to remove guys, and with 1.5 more common removal spells in black (in a small set mind you) you can get huge EV outta this guy. Oh and he can't die to himself.
"For whatever reason, I didn't encounter that much blue at the Prerelease, so this list is pretty small"
Blue is the worst color, and is relitively poor in Zendikar. I am not shocked you saw little blue, Better in draft than in sealed, by ALOT.
"Jagwasp Swarm. It's a 3-power flier for four mana in black. It's playable"
Snapping Drake would like a word with you sir. He is a 2-4 pick in every draft fromat he has ever been played in. ZZW is going to be slower (some what) than ZZZ. this guy using your terms is Auto playable.
"Pulse Tracker. Seems really underwhelming by himself. Maybe good filler for a Vampire deck? Or if you have a couple Urge to Feeds."
"Skitter of Lizards. More multikicker creatures, and this one has haste. Don't kid yourself, running this guy out on turn one is legit. Playable."
1/1'S for one mana aren't very good in limited unless they have some sort of upside. Haste isn't one.
"Hedron Rover. He's a 2/2 for two mana, which is pretty meh. But he can be pretty good on offense when you make your landfall. Good filler, maybe playable."
Is a 4/4 for four mana on offence and like most all landfall guys is poor on D. 4/4 for four is very good in a race.
A note on the format
In the first draft i did a pool of our 4 man pod to see how may land each player was playing the totals came out to
1 16 (G/W)
4 17
3 18
1 19 (B/u, Me)
my land base broke down to
11 Swamps
5 Islands
2 Quicksands
Two long time things i belive about limited
1 The better the deck is is necessary to run more land
2 Lands that work as men (I.E. Dread Statuary) or spells (Quicksand) Should be counted as .5 of and land and may require you to play more land
Just my 2 cents
K.
oh and white is far and away the second best color in zendikar draft andy, and its not close
If you have the last post in a thread and need to add to it, please use the edit button instead of double posting.--Binary
I don't think Loam Lions require playing green/white. I made a white/black deck that splashed four forests solely to power two Loam Lions and one Harrow, and ended up going 4-1. Of course, that may have been the Abyssal Persecutor and all the removal, but the Lions definitely seemed to give my opponents fits in the early game. Having two on the board is nothing to sneeze at!
As a further note, I'm not so sure about how draft differs from sealed, but Jagwasp Swarm was my sealed deck MVP. Maybe I just wasn't playing enough people that had flying, but he was an absolute beater in all three decks I built.
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COME, my tan-faced children,
Follow well in order, get your weapons ready,
Have you your pistols? Have you your sharp-edged axes?
Pioneers! O pioneers!
I think the only card that you left out is how amazing Ruin Ghost is in limited with a bunch of the common cipt lands. At my prerelease (I went 3-1-1) I had a crazy combo going with Khalni Garden, Ruin Ghost, and World Queller that I was able to get off in 3 of my matches because of double mysteries of the deep and double treasure hunt. Also, anything along the lines of sejiri steppe, kabira crossroads, or teetering peeks seem amazing wtih ruin ghost, especially if you have out a tideforce elemental (also in pool)
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All of us get lost in the darkness dreamers learn to steer by the stars
-Geddy Lee
One powerful interaction I used to great effect (3-1 draft) that I haven't seen mentioned was Halimar Depths + Vapor Snare. I was able to draft 3 depths and 2 snares (1 foil whopee!) Yoinking my opponent's creatures was good, but being able to rinse and reuse my depths was incredibly useful! I felt like I'd drafted 2 Tops. So keep an eye out for that little combo this weekend:cool2:
I agree that Basilisk Collar is absolutely insane. From personal experience, it's comparable to Loxodon Warhammer in 10th ed draft; you play it & you win.
I feel you did not give Wind Zendikon enough credit. It's a zendikon you don't mind seeing in multiples because of how cheap and ridiculous it actually is. Also, Vapor Snare seems to be a lot better than you give it credit for; with cards like Windrider Eel and the aforementioned Halimar Depths (or even Kabira Crossroads), there is some excellent synergy to be had.
Halimar Depths is more than "Playable". It's an auto-include and a very solid pick, and you pump your fist when you get one in a mid/latepick situation. Becomes an absolute bomb with a card like Living Tsunami or Vapor Snare. Play around with this card a bit and it will make your day so much easier.
Halimar Depths is more than "Playable". It's an auto-include and a very solid pick, and you pump your fist when you get one in a mid/latepick situation. Becomes an absolute bomb with a card like Living Tsunami or Vapor Snare. Play around with this card a bit and it will make your day so much easier.
Vapor Snare is bomby as hell.
Another interaction worth mentioning is Vapor Snare+ Tideforce Elemental. I did the following more than once at the prerelease: Tap an opponents attacker pre-combat. Untap Tideforce on my untap step, return a land (often a Halimar Depths:rolleyes:)for Vapor Snare on my upkeep. Tap a blocker pre-combat. Play said land and untap Tideforce again. Attack with the card drawing Sarukkar(sp?). Rinse and repeat. I don't need to tell you how powerful that was.:tongue:
While there were a bunch of things I disagreed with in your article, I guess I will just focus on two. First, tideforce elemental is beyond just good. One of them can completely shut down an otherwise solid offense. Way too often I had three creatures out when my opponent had an elemental and all I could do was sit there. Also, the scrib nibblers. It is a sideboard card for that controlling deck v.s. controlling deck matchup. I watched a game of a slow U/G landlfall control deck v.s a slow U/B control deck. They were pretty much locked even for most of game 2 until the black player started dropping his scrib nibblers. He suddenly had the advantage and the game ended in stalemate due to a loss of three or more cards per turn of the landfall player.
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About Razorfang Boomerang I too thought it was too expensive to be useful but I saw it be a decent SB card against some R/B decks that ran many x/1's. Especially in U and W decks with high toughness critters it provides a way to eliminate enemy threats rather than stall and leave yourself open to removal or other tricks. All in all, not a high pick, but also not worth completely writing off.
"Wall of Roots trades with Doran. Doran doesn't like Wall of Roots. You would think he might, as they are both trees. But Doran is a sociopathic tree. He and other trees don't get along – hell, he doesn't even get along with himself. Have you seen what happens when you cast two Dorans? Let me tell you, it isn't pretty." -Uri Peleg
About Razorfang Boomerang I too thought it was too expensive to be useful but I saw it be a decent SB card against some R/B decks that ran many x/1's. Especially in U and W decks with high toughness critters it provides a way to eliminate enemy threats rather than stall and leave yourself open to removal or other tricks. All in all, not a high pick, but also not worth completely writing off.
Uhm... There are better ways to spend 5 mana per turn, if you ask me.
Even though it is removal (sort of), it's an uncommon sorcery with additional cost - tap a creature - to deal 1 damage.
Compared to something like Caustic Crawler, the thing is completely laughable.
I would have to disagree with Andrew. I would definitly say that blue is by far the strongest color in limited. I played in drafts with several different highly skilled players, and those who ran either or both red and black decks folded to almost every other color except green. I ran a blue/white agro/control deck in both drafts I played it, and I took first place in both. Firstly, the blue zendikon is absolutely insane. A one drop two/two with evasion who brings back your land if it dies? yes please. Also, I dont think calcite snapper is given enough credit. The card is really really good. Especialy with another card under rated in this article, Aether trade winds. I ran a pilgrims eye, and I was lucky enough to get 3 kor skyfishers. I would play my land for turn 4, swing with calcite snapper, and Aether trade winds their blocker, bounce the pilgrims eye, then play it and seach a land. Blue is so crazy fast in WWK limited, and should be taken more seriously by the greater player populace before they catch on the hard way.
Horizon drake is amazing. A 3 power flier at 3 mana is good. Protection from lands is a minimum of 11 cards in the set. 6 manlands and 5 zendikons. This guy is house. I held off an army of dread statue, corrupted zendikon and eind zendikon because of 2 drakes. They are really underrated.
Razorfang boomerang may not be the best removal, but in a slower environment, it can do that one damage at the end of thir turn to break things up a bit and can cause your 2/2's to trade to their 2/3's. That makes it playable to me.
Treasure Hunt is auto playable. I played it once in two different games. Each time, I drew no less than 3 cards each time. Mysteries of the Deep is 3 more mana for the same amount of card advantage.
Halimar Depths is probably my favorite non rare blue land of all time. of all time. You get a free ponder, which can set you up for a massive treasure hunt. It's just bonkers.
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Originally Posted by Zsehaelax:
halo hunter can never kill baneslayer angel
Originally Posted by Jace, the Mindsculptor: 2/17
Oracle Rules text on Halo hunter from Gatherer:
When Halo Hunter enters the battlefield, destroy target Angel.
BSA is an angel, is it not??
Originally Posted by Zsehaelax:
Oracle Rules text on Baneslayer Angel:
"Protection from Demons" means the following:
Baneslayer Angel can't be targeted by abilities from sources with the creature type Demon"
"Akoum Battlesinger. I really like the two-drop allies. Now, sadly, she's just a 1/1, but she does pump the first time she comes down, and if you have a few other allies, you can probably get value out of here. If you're in white, Join the Ranks could really abuse her (not a domestic violence joke)."
drafted 7 of them yesterday went undefeated due to it didn't have any bombs or much of anything else in the deck lol
Played a pure worldwake draft last night with some friends (store was out of zendikar), if you don't raredraft and just go for good commons/uncommons, G/W can completely destroy people with its speed. Obviously the loam lions and beastial menaces are just plain awesome in draft, but there were also a few other bombshells that on their own pretty much won games (we played 3 rounds and I went 2-0 in each round so it wasn't close by any means).
Refraction trap was mentioned in the article, but I don't know if it was given the credit it was due even still. It's great for defending against burn or attackers, but actually I loved it even more when I was attacking, people would try to trade down blockers for my lions or apex hawks (which are pretty awesome also, 2/2 fliers that scale with your mana just rock early or lategame) and then I could refraction trap the damage to them and have their creature still die from mine. Worked great on the defense also and then if you're really gutsy, in games two or three (or late 1) you could try and trick your opponent into thinking you had one.
Battle hurda actually worked wonders too if we did get to the middlegame, 3/3 first strike doesn't look too impressive on paper, but I didn't really see anything that people played that he would be really worried about and then with the traps, anything that did scare him would get blown up anyway.
Lastly, if you ask me apex hawk is better than gnarlid pack (although I ran that in my deck too), in the early game gnarlid pack probably is better, but then once you start putting one or two multi-kickers onto them, 4/4 with flying suddenly becomes a lot scarier than a 4/4 without flying because of the lack of beefy fliers.
So...yeah, just wanted to share my thoughts, the deck for me was probably the easiest draft deck I've ever had to build, just threw all my loam lions, explores, apex hawks, grappler spiders and refraction traps into one deck and it ate people for dessert.
I would have to disagree with Andrew. I would definitly say that blue is by far the strongest color in limited. I played in drafts with several different highly skilled players, and those who ran either or both red and black decks folded to almost every other color except green. I ran a blue/white agro/control deck in both drafts I played it, and I took first place in both. Firstly, the blue zendikon is absolutely insane. A one drop two/two with evasion who brings back your land if it dies? yes please. Also, I dont think calcite snapper is given enough credit. The card is really really good. Especialy with another card under rated in this article, Aether trade winds. I ran a pilgrims eye, and I was lucky enough to get 3 kor skyfishers. I would play my land for turn 4, swing with calcite snapper, and Aether trade winds their blocker, bounce the pilgrims eye, then play it and seach a land. Blue is so crazy fast in WWK limited, and should be taken more seriously by the greater player populace before they catch on the hard way.
I agree. I ran UW and made top four (we split). Of the people in top four, there was another UW deck, a UG deck, and one RB deck. Don't get me wrong, black is still really strong, but red got weaker. Add to that Calcite Snapper, Perimeter Captain, and even Guardian Zendikon (almost always available late in a draft), and you can give a race deck fits. The UG deck had multiple Snapping Creepers. Sure, he's got the same body as Nissa's Chosen for one more CMC, but the vigilance allows you to attack back, and the common vamps/geopedes can't do anything about it. White also offers Apex Hawks, Fledgling Griffin, Marsh Threader, and Cliff Threader all at common. That's a whole lot of cheap evasion.
The battlesinger is the only one that's even above average, and he needs other allies, which you're probably not going to find in red, to be effective.
I would argue that the best WW red creature is worse than all the red Zendikar creatures with the possible exceptions of Highland Berserker and Goblin Bushwacker. Not only that, Plated Geopede might have been the best common creature in the set, and Bladetusk Boar is probably top five.
Also funny story about brink of disaster being not that awesome at all, my opponent played it on my green red manland that already had a few counters on it so i untapped, animated the land and played sejiri steppe giving it pro black and proceded to beat face. The card is kind of a weaker befoul
Horizon Drake's protection from lands isn't irrelevant, since Zendikons are effectively lands.
Re: Tomb Hex - Actually, three mana for a Disfigure is still fine (although as you point out the card is waaay better than that).
Re: Cosi's Ravager - With landfall cards you have to ask "How many more lands will I play?". Here the answer is 2-4, which is not enough damage to make a 2/2 for 4 playable. If for some reason the answer is significantly higher (your deck's controllish, it's built around landfall or you have lots of Zendikons) it might just about make the cut on a bad day as Cosi's Really Slow Lava Axe.
Or if you're not. 2/2 flyers for 4 are a staple in Limited and 2 extra toughness makes this tough to remove. I'll likely pick this quite high even in aggressive White builds.
Yeah, you got that right!
Personally I'm hoping it turns out to be bad since I called it as bad as soon as it was spoiled (essentially due to how infrequent it will be that it does anything remotely significant)... but LSV gave it a 3.0.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
The abyss is powerful even if you don't have other ways to remove guys, and with 1.5 more common removal spells in black (in a small set mind you) you can get huge EV outta this guy. Oh and he can't die to himself.
"For whatever reason, I didn't encounter that much blue at the Prerelease, so this list is pretty small"
Blue is the worst color, and is relitively poor in Zendikar. I am not shocked you saw little blue, Better in draft than in sealed, by ALOT.
"Jagwasp Swarm. It's a 3-power flier for four mana in black. It's playable"
Snapping Drake would like a word with you sir. He is a 2-4 pick in every draft fromat he has ever been played in. ZZW is going to be slower (some what) than ZZZ. this guy using your terms is Auto playable.
"Pulse Tracker. Seems really underwhelming by himself. Maybe good filler for a Vampire deck? Or if you have a couple Urge to Feeds."
"Skitter of Lizards. More multikicker creatures, and this one has haste. Don't kid yourself, running this guy out on turn one is legit. Playable."
1/1'S for one mana aren't very good in limited unless they have some sort of upside. Haste isn't one.
"Hedron Rover. He's a 2/2 for two mana, which is pretty meh. But he can be pretty good on offense when you make your landfall. Good filler, maybe playable."
Is a 4/4 for four mana on offence and like most all landfall guys is poor on D. 4/4 for four is very good in a race.
A note on the format
In the first draft i did a pool of our 4 man pod to see how may land each player was playing the totals came out to
1 16 (G/W)
4 17
3 18
1 19 (B/u, Me)
my land base broke down to
11 Swamps
5 Islands
2 Quicksands
Two long time things i belive about limited
1 The better the deck is is necessary to run more land
2 Lands that work as men (I.E. Dread Statuary) or spells (Quicksand) Should be counted as .5 of and land and may require you to play more land
Just my 2 cents
K.
oh and white is far and away the second best color in zendikar draft andy, and its not close
If you have the last post in a thread and need to add to it, please use the edit button instead of double posting.--Binary
As a further note, I'm not so sure about how draft differs from sealed, but Jagwasp Swarm was my sealed deck MVP. Maybe I just wasn't playing enough people that had flying, but he was an absolute beater in all three decks I built.
Follow well in order, get your weapons ready,
Have you your pistols? Have you your sharp-edged axes?
Pioneers! O pioneers!
I think the only card that you left out is how amazing Ruin Ghost is in limited with a bunch of the common cipt lands. At my prerelease (I went 3-1-1) I had a crazy combo going with Khalni Garden, Ruin Ghost, and World Queller that I was able to get off in 3 of my matches because of double mysteries of the deep and double treasure hunt. Also, anything along the lines of sejiri steppe, kabira crossroads, or teetering peeks seem amazing wtih ruin ghost, especially if you have out a tideforce elemental (also in pool)
-Geddy Lee
I don't have a sweet sig pic yet
trade thread
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=207913
I agree that Basilisk Collar is absolutely insane. From personal experience, it's comparable to Loxodon Warhammer in 10th ed draft; you play it & you win.
I feel you did not give Wind Zendikon enough credit. It's a zendikon you don't mind seeing in multiples because of how cheap and ridiculous it actually is. Also, Vapor Snare seems to be a lot better than you give it credit for; with cards like Windrider Eel and the aforementioned Halimar Depths (or even Kabira Crossroads), there is some excellent synergy to be had.
Vapor Snare is bomby as hell.
Another interaction worth mentioning is Vapor Snare+ Tideforce Elemental. I did the following more than once at the prerelease: Tap an opponents attacker pre-combat. Untap Tideforce on my untap step, return a land (often a Halimar Depths:rolleyes:)for Vapor Snare on my upkeep. Tap a blocker pre-combat. Play said land and untap Tideforce again. Attack with the card drawing Sarukkar(sp?). Rinse and repeat. I don't need to tell you how powerful that was.:tongue:
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[/CENTER]
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[CENTER][U]In Memory of Dr. Jeebus
I kill you with
it.
Uhm... There are better ways to spend 5 mana per turn, if you ask me.
Even though it is removal (sort of), it's an uncommon sorcery with additional cost - tap a creature - to deal 1 damage.
Compared to something like Caustic Crawler, the thing is completely laughable.
Razorfang boomerang may not be the best removal, but in a slower environment, it can do that one damage at the end of thir turn to break things up a bit and can cause your 2/2's to trade to their 2/3's. That makes it playable to me.
Treasure Hunt is auto playable. I played it once in two different games. Each time, I drew no less than 3 cards each time. Mysteries of the Deep is 3 more mana for the same amount of card advantage.
Halimar Depths is probably my favorite non rare blue land of all time. of all time. You get a free ponder, which can set you up for a massive treasure hunt. It's just bonkers.
halo hunter can never kill baneslayer angel
Originally Posted by Jace, the Mindsculptor: 2/17
Oracle Rules text on Halo hunter from Gatherer:
When Halo Hunter enters the battlefield, destroy target Angel.
BSA is an angel, is it not??
Originally Posted by Zsehaelax:
Oracle Rules text on Baneslayer Angel:
"Protection from Demons" means the following:
Baneslayer Angel can't be targeted by abilities from sources with the creature type Demon"
pwnt
drafted 7 of them yesterday went undefeated due to it didn't have any bombs or much of anything else in the deck lol
Refraction trap was mentioned in the article, but I don't know if it was given the credit it was due even still. It's great for defending against burn or attackers, but actually I loved it even more when I was attacking, people would try to trade down blockers for my lions or apex hawks (which are pretty awesome also, 2/2 fliers that scale with your mana just rock early or lategame) and then I could refraction trap the damage to them and have their creature still die from mine. Worked great on the defense also and then if you're really gutsy, in games two or three (or late 1) you could try and trick your opponent into thinking you had one.
Battle hurda actually worked wonders too if we did get to the middlegame, 3/3 first strike doesn't look too impressive on paper, but I didn't really see anything that people played that he would be really worried about and then with the traps, anything that did scare him would get blown up anyway.
Lastly, if you ask me apex hawk is better than gnarlid pack (although I ran that in my deck too), in the early game gnarlid pack probably is better, but then once you start putting one or two multi-kickers onto them, 4/4 with flying suddenly becomes a lot scarier than a 4/4 without flying because of the lack of beefy fliers.
So...yeah, just wanted to share my thoughts, the deck for me was probably the easiest draft deck I've ever had to build, just threw all my loam lions, explores, apex hawks, grappler spiders and refraction traps into one deck and it ate people for dessert.
I agree. I ran UW and made top four (we split). Of the people in top four, there was another UW deck, a UG deck, and one RB deck. Don't get me wrong, black is still really strong, but red got weaker. Add to that Calcite Snapper, Perimeter Captain, and even Guardian Zendikon (almost always available late in a draft), and you can give a race deck fits. The UG deck had multiple Snapping Creepers. Sure, he's got the same body as Nissa's Chosen for one more CMC, but the vigilance allows you to attack back, and the common vamps/geopedes can't do anything about it. White also offers Apex Hawks, Fledgling Griffin, Marsh Threader, and Cliff Threader all at common. That's a whole lot of cheap evasion.
Just look at red's common creatures: http://magiccards.info/query/cards/11538237.html
The battlesinger is the only one that's even above average, and he needs other allies, which you're probably not going to find in red, to be effective.
Now look at what Zendikar offered: http://magiccards.info/query/cards/11538272.html
I would argue that the best WW red creature is worse than all the red Zendikar creatures with the possible exceptions of Highland Berserker and Goblin Bushwacker. Not only that, Plated Geopede might have been the best common creature in the set, and Bladetusk Boar is probably top five.