This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Cranial Insertion: The Return of Pamplemouse. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.
Welcome on your new job, Carsten! I must say this was the most interesting, entertainingly long, detailed and well-written CI I've read in a long time, so you're setting the bar quite high as far as I'm concerned... Don't disapoint us with your future articles !
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I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
Q: I control two Oona's Blackguards. Are each of my unblocked Rogues with +1/+1 counters on them now Mind Rots waiting to happen?
A: They sure are! Oona's Blackguard has a triggered ability, and each instance of this ability triggers and resolves independently when a creature with a +1/+1 counter connects.
A nice addendum for this is the fact that not only the Rogues, but any of your creatures with +1/+1 counters is in fact very Mind Rotting.
Let me get one thing straight with you. When Condor and an official ruling disagree, 50% of the time the official ruling gets reversed later. The other 50% of the time, the rules get clarified/changed to make the ruling right when it really wasn't before.
Fortunately for you, Boros Garrison works really well with City of Traitors. Both the City's sacrifice-me ability and the Garrison's bounce-a-land ability trigger at the same time when you play Boros Garrison. Since you control both triggers, you get to put them on the stack in any order you like, so you can bounce the City of Traitors to avoid sacrificing it.
Boros Garrison enters the battlefield tapped.
When Boros Garrison enters the battlefield, return a land you control to its owner's hand. T: Add RW to your mana pool.
When you play another land, sacrifice City of Traitors. T: Add 2 to your mana pool.
Note the difference between play and enters the battlefield. Doesn't that mean that while you're playing the Garrison, the City will trigger, dying before it can be rescued?
Note the difference between play and enters the battlefield. Doesn't that mean that while you're playing the Garrison, the City will trigger, dying before it can be rescued?
Playing a land is a special action that doesn't use the stack. Once you say you are playing Boros Garrison, it is put onto the battlefield. At that time, its ability triggers and then both abilities are put onto the stack.
Welcome to CI! These are my favorite articles on this site, and yours did not disappoint. And lucky you - you got in after people finally finished asking about Warp World!
Hey Carsten, Congrats! I really enjoyed reading this article. I really liked the history tidbit about rule 104.2f.
Questions like the one about Djinn of Wishes make me wonder if it should be made more clear whether the "you may play" effect is one-shot or continuous (something like "you may then play/cast" for one-shots) . (Sure, we can check if it has a duration, but still...)
Q: I cast Sower of Temptetion and use it to tempt my opponent's Bog Wraith to come over to my side of the battlefield. My opponent is unhappy about this and enchants my Sower with Nettlevine Blight. When Nettlevine Blight forces me to sacrifice my Sower, can I attach the Blight to the the Bog Wraith before it returns to my opponent?
A: I like the way you think, but unfortunately that doesn't work. As soon as your Sower leaves the battlefield, the change of control effect ends immediately, in mid-resolution of Nettlevine Blight's ability. At the moment you are instructed to attach Nettlevine Blight to something you control, the Bog Wraith has already ceased to be something you control.
I believe this is incorrect.
the ability Nettlevine Blight grants reads: "sacrifice this permanent and attach Nettlevine Blight to a creature or a land you control". Which makes it a set of actions that happen at the same time, so control doesn't change in between them. Therefore, it should be possible to attach the Blight to the Bog.
If it would've read "sacrifice this permanent. Then, attach Nettlevine Blight to a creature or a land you control" then the pair of actions would happen one at a time and control would change in between them.
Sorry, but you're incorrect. And and then aren't differentiated like that. What makes it sequential is the use of two verbs and the lack of the word "simultaneously" - see Goblin Welder.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO "I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
Three state-based actions are checked:
* If a player does not have the highest life total, he or she loses the game. NAP loses.
* If a player attempted to draw a card from an empty library since the last time state-based actions were checked, he or she loses the game. AP loses.
* If a player has 0 or less life, he or she loses the game. NAP loses.
In the context of sudden death, does the first state-based action override the other two? Because I'm pretty sure that if you lose in multiple ways simultaneously, the game is still a draw if your opponent lost in one way.
Three state-based actions are checked:
* If a player does not have the highest life total, he or she loses the game. NAP loses.
* If a player attempted to draw a card from an empty library since the last time state-based actions were checked, he or she loses the game. AP loses.
* If a player has 0 or less life, he or she loses the game. NAP loses.
In the context of sudden death, does the first state-based action override the other two? Because I'm pretty sure that if you lose in multiple ways simultaneously, the game is still a draw if your opponent lost in one way.
The change in the MTR doesn't change the outcome of the situation. Under either version, both players simultaneously lose the game after Zap has resolved, so that game is a draw. Since the match is still tied, a new game begins with both players at 20 life and the match continues in sudden death mode.
What the change in the MTR did change is that rule 104.3f is no longer needed. Under the old version of the MTR, the SBA check after Zap resolved said "Simultaneously, player A wins, player A loses, and player B loses." Under the new version, the SBA check says "Simultaneously, player B loses, player A loses, and player B loses."
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Level 2 Magic Judge
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
The change in the MTR doesn't change the outcome of the situation. Under either version, both players simultaneously lose the game after Zap has resolved, so that game is a draw. Since the match is still tied, a new game begins with both players at 20 life and the match continues in sudden death mode.
Ah, that makes more sense now.
In this situation, if each player won one game before the sudden death game, would the match be reported as 2-1-1?
In this situation, if each player won one game before the sudden death game, would the match be reported as 2-1-1?
Assuming that player 1 wins the fourth game, yes, that's one possibility. It's also possible that the match was already 1-1-1 at the time the Zap thing happened, in which case the final match result would be 2-1-2.
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Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Sorry, but you're incorrect. And and then aren't differentiated like that. What makes it sequential is the use of two verbs and the lack of the word "simultaneously" - see Goblin Welder.
Welcome Carsten, may your stay at the CI be enjoyable and prolonged.
A quick follow up to the Blink question: what happens when one blinks a token which has an ETB ability? Will it trigger? I always thought that once a token is exiled it doesn't come back - but it looks from the answer that it only ceases to exist when SBAs are checked...
A quick follow up to the Blink question: what happens when one blinks a token which has an ETB ability? Will it trigger? I always thought that once a token is exiled it doesn't come back - but it looks from the answer that it only ceases to exist when SBAs are checked...
The token won't enter the battlefield, as it remains exiled until it ceases to exist when state-based actions are checked.
110.5f A token that has left the battlefield can’t come back onto the battlefield. If such a token would return to the battlefield, it remains in its current zone instead. It ceases to exist the next time state-based actions are checked; see rule 704.
Q: If I imprint Burst Lightning on my Isochron Scepter, can I kick it for free?
A: You can kick it, but it'll cost you 4 to do so. Isochron Scepter only waives the mana cost, which is the cost printed in the top-right corner of the card. You are still responsible for any additional costs, even if they include mana. Think of Isochron Scepter's ability as winning an "all-inclusive" cruise: The meals are paid for, but if you want to gamble in the on-board casino, you'll have to pony up your own dough.
To clarify, when you put Orim's Chant on the Scepter, you have to pay the extra for the kicker, right? It total cost is 2W? Because I had an argument with experienced Vintage players over this point, and they ultimately directed me to a thread online that told me the kicker was free. I knew I was right though! Grrrr
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On MTGO as Protoman.
On 7/14/10, broke 1900 mark! <3 ROE.
To clarify, when you put Orim's Chant on the Scepter, you have to pay the extra for the kicker, right?
Yes, it's the same situation as Burst Lightning.
It total cost is 2W?
Effectively, yes, but it's not exactly paid like that. You pay 2 and tap the Scepter to pay the activation cost for its ability. When the ability resolves, you copy the exiled card and cast it. At that time, when you cast the copy, you decide whether to pay an additional W to kick the spell.
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Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Sorry, but you're incorrect. And and then aren't differentiated like that. What makes it sequential is the use of two verbs and the lack of the word "simultaneously" - see Goblin Welder.
I seem to remember some ruling regarding Convalescent Care (edit: darn it, now I can't remember the name of the card) never triggering when you Lightning Helix yourself because the damage and life gain happen at the same time. Is this wrong?
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Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
I seem to remember some ruling regarding Convalescent Care (edit: darn it, now I can't remember the name of the card) never triggering when you Lightning Helix yourself because the damage and life gain happen at the same time. Is this wrong?
That'd be wrong; if the ruling was correct, it would be because the damage and life gain are not at the same time (maybe something that needs your life total at a certain value or higher to do something?), though I have no clue which card you mean either. (Or whatever card it is doesn't care about simultaneity of actions, only where SBAs are checked or triggers happen or something.)
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO "I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
That'd be wrong; if the ruling was correct, it would be because the damage and life gain are not at the same time (maybe something that needs your life total at a certain value or higher to do something?), though I have no clue which card you mean either. (Or whatever card it is doesn't care about simultaneity of actions, only where SBAs are checked or triggers happen or something.)
Good to know, I've been playing with a flawed assumption for quite some time now then. (The card I'm thinking of had a state trigger that triggered when your life total was less than some value.)
To be fair though, I don't think the rules ever go into what a card needs to say to make something simultaneous. "And" seemed perfectly logical to me.
EDIT: Didn't find the card I was looking for, but I did find Lurking Jackals. I was under the impression that if I was at (say) 11 life and Helixed myself while my opponent controlled Lurking Jackals, the enchantment would trigger. EDIT 2: And right below it in the search is Opal Avenger which can produce similar situations and actually possibly be a tactically correct play (assuming this works, which you're saying it doesn't).
Didn't find the card I was looking for, but I did find Lurking Jackals. I was under the impression that if I was at (say) 11 life and Helixed myself while my opponent controlled Lurking Jackals, the enchantment would trigger. EDIT 2: And right below it in the search is Opal Avenger which can produce similar situations and actually possibly be a tactically correct play (assuming this works, which you're saying it doesn't).
Maybe there's a misunderstanding here? Lurking Jackals and Opal Avenger WILL trigger if you Helix yourself when you're at 11 life, precisely because the damage and the life gain are sequential. They will NOT trigger if you hit yourself with a Lifelinked Goblin Artillery because the life gain happens at the same time as the damage.
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Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Maybe there's a misunderstanding here? Lurking Jackals and Opal Avenger WILL trigger if you Helix yourself when you're at 11 life, precisely because the damage and the life gain are sequential. They will NOT trigger if you hit yourself with a Lifelinked Goblin Artillery because the life gain happens at the same time as the damage.
That's what I'm understanding now. Thanks
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Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
What about Volcanic Fallout ? If I have 2 life points left and so does my opponent, I cast Volcanic Fallout. What happens?
After Volcanic Fallout is done, the game sees two players with 0 or less life. Both players simultaneously lose the game, so the game is a draw.
Note that no player in this scenario is simultaneously winning and losing the game. The fact that your opponent loses the game does not immediately mean that you win the game.
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Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
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Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
A nice addendum for this is the fact that not only the Rogues, but any of your creatures with +1/+1 counters is in fact very Mind Rotting.
If only Spike Rogue were a Spike Rogue...
MTG Rules Adviser/Advisor
Comp Rules, FAQs, and DCI Rules
The Oracle text for City of Traitors, however:
Note the difference between play and enters the battlefield. Doesn't that mean that while you're playing the Garrison, the City will trigger, dying before it can be rescued?
Playing a land is a special action that doesn't use the stack. Once you say you are playing Boros Garrison, it is put onto the battlefield. At that time, its ability triggers and then both abilities are put onto the stack.
Questions like the one about Djinn of Wishes make me wonder if it should be made more clear whether the "you may play" effect is one-shot or continuous (something like "you may then play/cast" for one-shots) . (Sure, we can check if it has a duration, but still...)
Also, regarding the Nettleine Curse/Sower of Temptation question:
I believe this is incorrect.
the ability Nettlevine Blight grants reads: "sacrifice this permanent and attach Nettlevine Blight to a creature or a land you control". Which makes it a set of actions that happen at the same time, so control doesn't change in between them. Therefore, it should be possible to attach the Blight to the Bog.
If it would've read "sacrifice this permanent. Then, attach Nettlevine Blight to a creature or a land you control" then the pair of actions would happen one at a time and control would change in between them.
Good Luck!
See also Avenging Druid versus Hermit Druid
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
Three state-based actions are checked:
* If a player does not have the highest life total, he or she loses the game. NAP loses.
* If a player attempted to draw a card from an empty library since the last time state-based actions were checked, he or she loses the game. AP loses.
* If a player has 0 or less life, he or she loses the game. NAP loses.
In the context of sudden death, does the first state-based action override the other two? Because I'm pretty sure that if you lose in multiple ways simultaneously, the game is still a draw if your opponent lost in one way.
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Sig banner thanks to DarkNightCavalier of Heroes of the Plane Studios!
The change in the MTR doesn't change the outcome of the situation. Under either version, both players simultaneously lose the game after Zap has resolved, so that game is a draw. Since the match is still tied, a new game begins with both players at 20 life and the match continues in sudden death mode.
What the change in the MTR did change is that rule 104.3f is no longer needed. Under the old version of the MTR, the SBA check after Zap resolved said "Simultaneously, player A wins, player A loses, and player B loses." Under the new version, the SBA check says "Simultaneously, player B loses, player A loses, and player B loses."
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Ah, that makes more sense now.
In this situation, if each player won one game before the sudden death game, would the match be reported as 2-1-1?
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Sig banner thanks to DarkNightCavalier of Heroes of the Plane Studios!
Assuming that player 1 wins the fourth game, yes, that's one possibility. It's also possible that the match was already 1-1-1 at the time the Zap thing happened, in which case the final match result would be 2-1-2.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
Ah I see. So it depends on the number of verbs and on whether "simultaneously" is used or not. Good to know, Thanks!
A quick follow up to the Blink question: what happens when one blinks a token which has an ETB ability? Will it trigger? I always thought that once a token is exiled it doesn't come back - but it looks from the answer that it only ceases to exist when SBAs are checked...
The token won't enter the battlefield, as it remains exiled until it ceases to exist when state-based actions are checked.
110.5f A token that has left the battlefield can’t come back onto the battlefield. If such a token would return to the battlefield, it remains in its current zone instead. It ceases to exist the next time state-based actions are checked; see rule 704.
On 7/14/10, broke 1900 mark! <3 ROE.
Yes, it's the same situation as Burst Lightning.
Effectively, yes, but it's not exactly paid like that. You pay 2 and tap the Scepter to pay the activation cost for its ability. When the ability resolves, you copy the exiled card and cast it. At that time, when you cast the copy, you decide whether to pay an additional W to kick the spell.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
I seem to remember some ruling regarding
Convalescent Care(edit: darn it, now I can't remember the name of the card) never triggering when you Lightning Helix yourself because the damage and life gain happen at the same time. Is this wrong?Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
That'd be wrong; if the ruling was correct, it would be because the damage and life gain are not at the same time (maybe something that needs your life total at a certain value or higher to do something?), though I have no clue which card you mean either. (Or whatever card it is doesn't care about simultaneity of actions, only where SBAs are checked or triggers happen or something.)
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
Good to know, I've been playing with a flawed assumption for quite some time now then. (The card I'm thinking of had a state trigger that triggered when your life total was less than some value.)
To be fair though, I don't think the rules ever go into what a card needs to say to make something simultaneous. "And" seemed perfectly logical to me.
EDIT: Didn't find the card I was looking for, but I did find Lurking Jackals. I was under the impression that if I was at (say) 11 life and Helixed myself while my opponent controlled Lurking Jackals, the enchantment would trigger. EDIT 2: And right below it in the search is Opal Avenger which can produce similar situations and actually possibly be a tactically correct play (assuming this works, which you're saying it doesn't).
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
Maybe there's a misunderstanding here? Lurking Jackals and Opal Avenger WILL trigger if you Helix yourself when you're at 11 life, precisely because the damage and the life gain are sequential. They will NOT trigger if you hit yourself with a Lifelinked Goblin Artillery because the life gain happens at the same time as the damage.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
That's what I'm understanding now. Thanks
Remember, kids: Never fight with Flashback, 'cause Flashback always wins.
After Volcanic Fallout is done, the game sees two players with 0 or less life. Both players simultaneously lose the game, so the game is a draw.
Note that no player in this scenario is simultaneously winning and losing the game. The fact that your opponent loses the game does not immediately mean that you win the game.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.