What is it? If UGx Threshold and Black Aggro had a lovechild, it may end up looking like TEAM. As mentioned by popeye79, the deckname (and subsequent archetype) "TEAM AMERICA" was first conceived as an inside joke amongst European players who used generally 'good cards' Americans didn't. In a meta dominated by Threshold and other aggro-control decks, TEAM was born. During late 2008 and most of 2009, TEAM has dominated competitive legacy. With the current shift in the meta, to a more combo nature, TA has seen a noticeable decline; nevertheless, it's a unique fusion of solid strategies: denial, free spells, tempo, and efficiency. It is simple in its design but has several important game-playing dynamics that make it a powerhouse.
Before we move on, it's important to learn that the name TEAM AMERICA has been watered down to refer to this style of deck. Much like how 'the rock' originally meant something during its creation, over time the literal name of the TEAM (be it Europe, America or Obama, Tokyo, etc) all refer to this style of deck. I personally refer to the deck as "TEAM" since there are so many goofy locations and inside jokes, they don't mean anything.
Additionally, the "overlooked cards of a region" clause that originally made the deck isn't a driving point anymore, although some argue they bring overlooked cards and 'tech' to the table -- whatever.
For consistency purposes, I call this the primer for TEAM AMERICA and TEAM, which mean the same thing.
How To Play: "TEAM" consists of a very refined list of cards to run. As stated before, the ideology is denial, free spells, tempo, and efficiency. I state them in that order as a reminder to the priority of playing:
1. Kill enemy resources + counter stuff
2. If *above* fails, use free spells to keep your presence while you build...
3. Tempo. By using *above 2*, you will create terrific board and game momentum in your favor
4. To achieve *above* you MUST be efficient
4x Brainstorm / 3-4x Ponder
4x Force of Will / 4x Daze / 3-4x Stifle
4x Sinkhole / 4x Wasteland
4x Snuff Out OR cheap black removal or both (0-2x if both) / 2-4x Discard (4x as the base; run 2x if you are utilizing more critters/removal)
------------ Choices Explained Brainstorm + Ponder = efficiency. 8 spells to smooth out upcoming draws
Stifle + Sinkhole + Wasteland = 12 resource-pounding spells. Stifle also doubles on Aether Vial activating, should one hit the table
Thoughtseize* = commonly the ONLY discard spell to run. Turn 1 or 2 it is THE best indicator of what your opponent has + you rip something juicy from their hand. The loss of 2 life is totally negated by you taking a threat away immediately
Spell Snare/Spell Pierce = commonly cuts into other staple cards. Since the simple list runs 4x of some many cards, running 3x of these options opens you up for more countermagic, should you want some. I consider this a "variant" more than a preference, since it is widely adapted.
Smother/Ghastly Demise/D.edict = Like adding more countermagic, if more removal is wanted, these slots pull from other 4x's being reduced. Sometimes players pull Snuff Out in favor of conventional removal. This is a personal preference and is debatable (snuff out vs other removal)
*There are players who feel sinkhole is a dead card. This is highly debatable. The big argument is to take the sinkhole slot and substitute it with Hymn to Tourach. Again, this is heavily debatable and most successful lists run Sinkhole.
Critters to run: Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker. Both of these guys kick ass for 2 mana. We all know goyf can commonly be a 4/5 or 5/6 for 2 mana. Tombstalker benefits from the plethora of cantrips, free spells, and fetchlands -- on top of normal spells to make his cost commonly in the 2-3 mana ballpark thanks to his Delve mechanic
4x Tarmogoyf = the most efficient critter of all time
4x Tombstalker = with delve mitigating costs, this rivals 'goyf in the efficient department
Now this is a preference, but sometimes people feel 8 creatures is NOT enough. In this event, there are nice 3rd string guys to run:
-Trygon Predator = a walking naturalize that flies
-Vendilion Clique = a powerhouse that can turn the tides of games if used correctly. Flash on an opponent's upkeep can act like another thoughtseize. It's a fragile 3/1 but with flash, flying, and 3 power, it's a quality threat
-Dark Confidant = delayed card advantage. May be dangerous to run (lots of higher cc spells) but if you tweak the deck around, confidant could easily slip in for his CA
-Phyrexian Dreadnought = since stifle is already run, the ability to stifle-nought combo and land a 12/12 trampler for 2 is very tempting.
Lands: At first glance, the manabase looks a tad odd, but TEAM is fully capable of running off 2 or 3 functional lands. All lands in here are fetch, classic duals, or wastelands. There is no need for basics, since it presses on the ideology of being efficient. 20 lands is the set number players run with, although 18 and 19 have been seen.
6-10 dual lands / 4 wastelands / everything else is a fetchland / no basics
Literal Strategy: I will be vague here, only because the decklists paint the picture quite clearly. TEAM is first and foremost a deck that takes the initiative. It strives to make the opponent deal with denial, fall behind in board position, and overextend to catch up. As the opponent "takes the bait" and falls victim to being pressured, they should walk into your free/cheap removal + fall victim to stifle/daze effects. Goyf and Stalker are commonly played to finish the game, although if an opportunity presents itself (opponent stalling on lands), end things early.
Vague sample games, should your gameplan be working:
A) Pretty Tempo = T1 Thoughtseize > T2 sinkhole > T3 Stifle + Daze > T4 Tombstalker
B) Tempo Crazy = T1 Stifle > T2 Smother > T3 Goyf + Snuff Out > T4 beatdown
C) Hard LD = T1 Stifle > T2 Sinkhole > T3 Wasteland + possible Tombstalker
D) Denial = T1 Ponder/Brainstorm + Daze > T2 thoughseize > T3 Goyf + Snuff Out
E) LD Stalker = T1 Thoughtseize > T2 Sinkhole > T3 Brainstorm, Wasteland, possible Tombstalker
F) Hard Denial = T1 Daze > T2 wasteland them > T3 Smother/Sinkhole/Snuff Out > T4 Goyf
G) Blitz = T1 Thoughtseize + Daze > T2 Ponder/Brainstorm + Snuff Out > T3 Goyf
Ultimately, you should be the most dominating force in the Turns 1-4 window. Turns 1/2 should be spent denying opponents (discard, LD, stifle fetchlands). Turns 3/4 should see you continue the denial and culminate in a very powerful creature. You can alternatively drop a powerhouse, ie; goyf, turn 2/3 and "finish off" your denial plans turns 3/4.
I like to understand Team America as tempo-thresh on crack. TEAM will go above and beyond to establish a break-neck pace. TEAM players will be willing to take -1 life off fetchlands, -2 life from thoughtseize, and -4 life from snuff out all in the name of tempo. Other cards like sinkhole and a full set of wastelands are ENTIRELY dedicated to virtually keeping the game "early". The minute the opponent starts establishing itself and gains resources, TEAM needs to be finishing off the game.
Problems/Holes:
1. Mana -- with a deck full of nonbasics and only a handful that make mana, you need can't afford to take a hit to the resources. Post-SB non basic hate like Mooneffects or Back to Basics/Choke end things quick. Price of Progress is another card that reads "auto loss" if you let it resolve against you.
2. Uber-fast combo -- Ichorid, Reanimator, and Storm/ANT can all blow past the best of decks. Although TEAM runs the reliable Daze + FoW combo, this may not always be enough. This is where spell pierce in the deck shines.
3. Over-Efficiency -- semi-controversial to place this as a major problem, but the truth is that TEAM is so efficient it NEEDS every spell it runs. While this sounds stupid (obviously it needs its spells), it runs such a streamlined plan that if anything goes wrong, a substantial blow to the balls is felt. If you get a sinkhole countered or a goyf STP'ed, your huge momentum suddenly depletes. Is a lone counter the end of the world? No. But with a deck that relies on stomping out others fast through denial and efficiency, there are circumstances and entire matchups where losing a spell sets you back like nothing else.
4. Cost --- The literal cost of TEAM places it at an above average to high cost of MTG ownership
Hopefully this helps get interest spurring with the deck. I personally do not play TEAM AMERICA but I have always found it fascinating. Happy playing guys! ~ Warden
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I've researched other builds on the net and have found a good many with more fetches than targets. As I understand it, Magic 101 says you rarely if ever want to run more fetches than targets.
Does the deck find itself hurting from this? I'm assuming that because the deck has so many denial cards as well as 8 cantrips that it cares more for assuring you hit the color land you need, and then dropping threats immediately. I mean, as a black player myself I rarely if ever find myself above 3 lands in a game (unless I'm against a countertop that stalls the game for 20 minutes -.-).
Forlorn Egoist
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I've researched other builds on the net and have found a good many with more fetches than targets. As I understand it, Magic 101 says you rarely if ever want to run more fetches than targets.
Does the deck find itself hurting from this? I'm assuming that because the deck has so many denial cards as well as 8 cantrips that it cares more for assuring you hit the color land you need, and then dropping threats immediately. I mean, as a black player myself I rarely if ever find myself above 3 lands in a game (unless I'm against a countertop that stalls the game for 20 minutes -.-).
Forlorn Egoist
Forlorn, the reason is twofold:
1. You need at most 3 lands to run efficiently (of course, more wastelands are better)
2. Library manipulation with Ponder/Bstorm
You can always fetch for nothing (no targets left) should you hit all the duals in the deck already. The reason players run a slew of fetch is to ensure #1 and to build up on #2. It also serves as fuel for Tombstalker and Goyf, which could be a 3rd point (more stalker fuel than goyf)
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Extirpate is terrible in a tempo deck because it doesn't effect the game state "now." It's cute, and that's really all. Crypt is definitely better grave hate.
What do you want to needle? Wasted SB slots imo. It hits vial, but against, say, merfolk, what do you side out for them? Much like tempo thresh, your SB cards need to play the tempo game too instead of the heavy control role because you quickly get outmatched there.
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I think needle is the only thing I would run that doesn't create tempo by itself. If I were scare of what Double_Death mentioned, I wouldn't mind having needle come in. It shuts down problem cards.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
- Pernicious Deed: nice to clean the battlefield from nasty permanets or creatures;
deeds is just too slow for this deck. and a reset button shouldn't be needed, as your permission and removal should be more than enough.
engineered explosives is another story though.. it doubles as hate for several matches. ichorid's zombie tokens, empty the warren tokens, challace of the void, .... e.e. is just faster and better imo.
@ warden- thank you for donating your time to this primer, it looks great. maybe we can add to it over time; is it too much to ask to add the sideboards for those decks listed in the primer?
also, this may be debated, but your description of thoughtsieze may be off...
i've been told by a much more experienced pilot, that it's almost NEVER played turn one, unless against combo. there are so few threats in the deck, that you absolutly HAVE to make sure they stick. so you take their removal before dropping a threat, with counter back up as well for their lucky topdecks. early game you should be hitting lands, countering stuff, and using removal.
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Pernicious Deed seems like it costs too much for this deck even in the sideboard. I would think Engineered explosives would be more reliable because it's colorless and cheaper to cast in a general sense.
Yeah, I figured that you would board in Engineered explosives for the same reasons as you would for Pernicious Deed.
Also, I would imagine that sinkhole and spell pierce can be a potent pair in the right matchups.
For starters, I like the the start of your primer Warden. Are you going to add matchup analysis whenever you get the time?
Thx. As for matchups, I have no idea, since I do not play the deck. I filled the request for a primer being written so in some ways I'm a mercenary here lol. I do not want to throw in info I do not know/dated material.
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For those asking about SB's it's all a matter of personal preference and meta to be honest. Deckcheck has a limited number of TA decks so getting an idea from there could be a solid springboard (not to mention what other decks pack and general strategies vs different archetypes)
About pernicious deed --- it's "slow" but it is a combination of preference and meta imo. Yes EE can nail specific cc's easier but deed I believe is meant to be run in the sense that you obliterate the field and drop a finisher. Against all decks, this is just dumb. You'll face counterspells, etc....but against say, enchantress or goblins, deed going off IS game. Some players think it's worth running as a 2x. I am not one to argue this, since as stated I do not play the deck, but I do see the merits of deed. It's not for every matchup but it gives you the game in several circumstances.
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If I were to suggest things to test, it would be like Cecilia says, Spell Pierce + Sinkhole MD. I think Pierce is too good of a card to skimp over...especially a tempo-driven deck. Spell Snare is questionable (my personal belief). I am a HUGE fan of Sinkhole and it deserves more credit than people give. It acts as LD, feeds Tombstalker, and can knock out key lands -- anything from Mutavaults to opposing Wastelands
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
not only is it slow, but in THIS deck, it's extemely slow.. sometimes it's really hard to hit that third land drop. there are better things to be doing in the early game as well. you'll almost never be able to play and activate in the same turn. in a deck so driven by tempo, it really is a bad choice. i have/sometimes do play this deck, it's just too slow. I've been primarily playing eva green for the last year or two.. i sometimes play it in the board there, but even then it's really slow (another quasi tempo deck with sinkhole, wasteland, snuff out, thoughtseize).
I honestly don't even know how this card got brought up for discussion... has anyone ever seen a list running them?
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i'm more interested in discussing the merrits of running other cards.. since spell pierce has found a home here, it tends to boil down to choosing between thoughtseize and sinkhole.
i personally am on the side of sinkhole, even though i know it's the weekest card in any list. the main problem i have with thoughtseize, is it being proactive instead of reactive.. especially with the inclusion of spell pierce. anyone with experience care to comment?
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
both of those were VERY small tournys, and didn't do to well.. seems like someone was just testing out a few theories.
I do like that first 10 monster configuration though.. especially against countertop and stax- tygron preditor is a beast in the right meta.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I play Eva Green normally and am working to build DreadStill. I figured after I finish DreadStill, I should try to build Team America since all I'll be missing are the Duals and some fetches.
Looking for opinions on my first attempt at the list.
It seems like Team Decks are build to have a hard time with all of the tool they are using to fight the meta. 8-10 fetch lands, no basics, very few dudes, and no real card advantage.
The Standstills are supposed to be 1 Phyrexian Dreadnought and 2 Trinkbind but a friend told me i could use i Phyrexian Dreadnought and sold it :mad:. I lost my first 2 rounds and won the next 7 then lost the first 2 rounds of day 2. 7-4 isnt a great record but is seems like a move in the right direction. It has card advantage(Dark Confidant) and plays 7 basics which can go a long way (i hard cast FoW like 4 or 5 times). I know this is a huge change but i was wondering what other people thought. I know it's really not Team but it's really not anything else either.
@jamis: I think playing Phyrexian Dreadnought and Sinkhole seems kind of odd. you are planning on not using some of your LD (Stifle) on lands and still keepsing the other 4 cards for the plan. It just seems like you should have a more defined plan/goal rather than wasteing card in hopes of tripping up your opponent.
The idea behind Thoughtseize should be changed. It is used to remove removal and creatures. The only time you use it turn 1 is versus combo. You might not think this. If you use it turn 1 then you can not play Stifle or bluffing it. This is the proper play. If you do not know that is my scg 3rd place list.
Speaking of draw, with cards like brainstorm and ponder, has anyone had much testing experience using sensei's divining top instead/as well? Seems like it has some benefits, ie re-usability, but I see the drawback in that it doesn't draw a card outright. Thoughts?
turn one you want to have mana up for a stifle or spell pierce.
ponder shuffles away crap, top doesn't.
brainstorm puts cards in hand, and gets rid of junk. top doesn't.
top is a mana sink, and we simply don't have the spare mana. i suppose the same reason canadian thresh uses the same draw package, similar mana base, and no top.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
It's good to see a primer being written for this deck archetype. I switched over to this deck from Eva Green because U offers a lot of advantages, albeit with less explosiveness. It also doesn't roll over to ANT/Combo.
When the mana denial works, it is a beautiful thing to watch. If you lead with Verdant Catacombs the opponent puts you on Rock/Eva and doesn't see the Stifle coming.
I think you do need to run something in the area of 8x to 9x fetchlands because it's easy fuel for Tombstalker.
Right now I'm playing a build with 4x Sinkhole MD and 3x Thoughtseize and 3x Engineered Explosives in the SB. Against Zoo or Goblins the EEs will come in. I haven't done a ton of testing with it but EE just seems better than Deed.
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I know you guys have been saying save the thoughtseize for after first turn, but what if you were going up against goblins or merfolk? Should I try to thoughtseize away a lackey or vial?
I know you guys have been saying save the thoughtseize for after first turn, but what if you were going up against goblins or merfolk? Should I try to thoughtseize away a lackey or vial?
having the option of thoutseizing T1 means you're on the play. if this is true,
you have mana open to pierce the vial, or daze either one, or force either one, or snuff out lacky, or smother lacky before it attacks, or drop goyf to block lacky.
so not including thoughtseize, you have 11 cards agaisnt turn one vial (of which ponder and brainstorm also help you find). and even IF vial lands, stifle slows it down.
and you have 12-13 cards against turn one lacky (again, ponder and brainstorm help you find them). again, stifling lacky's triggered ability gives you time to find an answer. and also lets not forget droping goyf to block before lacky can swing.. another 4 cards is 16-17 cards plus stifles to slow if needed.
you shouldn't ever "have" to use thoughtseize if you mulligan and play appropriatly.
and lets not forget, if you're on the play, and you don't know what your opponent is playing, i'd rather stifle, or bluff stifle, or pierce anyway. most decks are highly likely to crack a fetch, or drop a top, or vial, or a bloodmoon, or what have you. by the time you drop your threat daze and pierce might not be so good... thats when you need thoughtsieze, to pick the cheap removal out of their hand.
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Thanks that makes a lot more sense. I just finished buying the cards for the deck $1100 later and just waiting for them to come in the mail, can't wait to take it to tournaments.
I've played it recently and its decent against combo, bant, and naya.
but it does have a few issues with late game.
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if it gets to the late game you've probably already lost.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I've been playing this deck a lot on MWS lately. While that's obviously not the greatest place to test a legacy deck, I am really enjoying playing with it and having decent success. I think I might shell out the money to put it together as Legacy is just as popular as Standard where I live. I am playing a very simple list:
My only concern is with sideboarding. I am not really familar enough with the meta to know exactly what hate to pack, so what is this deck weak against?
I am sold on the idea of 4 Spell Pierce and 2 Trygon Predator, and possibly even Force Spike. From testing, it seems like you really don't accrue much card advantage, so you need to counter your opponent's CA. I also need some GY hate in there, probably Tormod's Crypt rather than Relic as I rarely have more than 2 lands to work with.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
might consider inquisition of kozilek for the side. It can take out a lot of stuff they might drop as they get around tempo later in game. but its good for picking apart combo, enchantress, landstill, merfolk.
goblins always seemed to be an issue for me when i was playing this though. best defense was damnation or jitte.
Shamed to say but I had hard match ups against burn with this deck, I think i approached that match up wrong though.
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What is it? If UGx Threshold and Black Aggro had a lovechild, it may end up looking like TEAM. As mentioned by popeye79, the deckname (and subsequent archetype) "TEAM AMERICA" was first conceived as an inside joke amongst European players who used generally 'good cards' Americans didn't. In a meta dominated by Threshold and other aggro-control decks, TEAM was born. During late 2008 and most of 2009, TEAM has dominated competitive legacy. With the current shift in the meta, to a more combo nature, TA has seen a noticeable decline; nevertheless, it's a unique fusion of solid strategies: denial, free spells, tempo, and efficiency. It is simple in its design but has several important game-playing dynamics that make it a powerhouse.
Before we move on, it's important to learn that the name TEAM AMERICA has been watered down to refer to this style of deck. Much like how 'the rock' originally meant something during its creation, over time the literal name of the TEAM (be it Europe, America or Obama, Tokyo, etc) all refer to this style of deck. I personally refer to the deck as "TEAM" since there are so many goofy locations and inside jokes, they don't mean anything.
Additionally, the "overlooked cards of a region" clause that originally made the deck isn't a driving point anymore, although some argue they bring overlooked cards and 'tech' to the table -- whatever.
For consistency purposes, I call this the primer for TEAM AMERICA and TEAM, which mean the same thing.
How To Play: "TEAM" consists of a very refined list of cards to run. As stated before, the ideology is denial, free spells, tempo, and efficiency. I state them in that order as a reminder to the priority of playing:
1. Kill enemy resources + counter stuff
2. If *above* fails, use free spells to keep your presence while you build...
3. Tempo. By using *above 2*, you will create terrific board and game momentum in your favor
4. To achieve *above* you MUST be efficient
What To Run: These are the common cards to run. Alternatives include, but are not limited to: Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Smother (cheap black removal), Ghastly Demise (cheap black removal), Diabolic Edict (cheap black removal), Rushing River, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives
4x Brainstorm / 3-4x Ponder
4x Force of Will / 4x Daze / 3-4x Stifle
4x Sinkhole / 4x Wasteland
4x Snuff Out OR cheap black removal or both (0-2x if both) / 2-4x Discard (4x as the base; run 2x if you are utilizing more critters/removal)
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Choices Explained
Brainstorm + Ponder = efficiency. 8 spells to smooth out upcoming draws
Daze + FoW + Snuff Out = 12 free spells
Stifle + Sinkhole + Wasteland = 12 resource-pounding spells. Stifle also doubles on Aether Vial activating, should one hit the table
Thoughtseize* = commonly the ONLY discard spell to run. Turn 1 or 2 it is THE best indicator of what your opponent has + you rip something juicy from their hand. The loss of 2 life is totally negated by you taking a threat away immediately
Spell Snare/Spell Pierce = commonly cuts into other staple cards. Since the simple list runs 4x of some many cards, running 3x of these options opens you up for more countermagic, should you want some. I consider this a "variant" more than a preference, since it is widely adapted.
Smother/Ghastly Demise/D.edict = Like adding more countermagic, if more removal is wanted, these slots pull from other 4x's being reduced. Sometimes players pull Snuff Out in favor of conventional removal. This is a personal preference and is debatable (snuff out vs other removal)
*There are players who feel sinkhole is a dead card. This is highly debatable. The big argument is to take the sinkhole slot and substitute it with Hymn to Tourach. Again, this is heavily debatable and most successful lists run Sinkhole.
Critters to run: Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker. Both of these guys kick ass for 2 mana. We all know goyf can commonly be a 4/5 or 5/6 for 2 mana. Tombstalker benefits from the plethora of cantrips, free spells, and fetchlands -- on top of normal spells to make his cost commonly in the 2-3 mana ballpark thanks to his Delve mechanic
4x Tarmogoyf = the most efficient critter of all time
4x Tombstalker = with delve mitigating costs, this rivals 'goyf in the efficient department
Now this is a preference, but sometimes people feel 8 creatures is NOT enough. In this event, there are nice 3rd string guys to run:
-Trygon Predator = a walking naturalize that flies
-Vendilion Clique = a powerhouse that can turn the tides of games if used correctly. Flash on an opponent's upkeep can act like another thoughtseize. It's a fragile 3/1 but with flash, flying, and 3 power, it's a quality threat
-Dark Confidant = delayed card advantage. May be dangerous to run (lots of higher cc spells) but if you tweak the deck around, confidant could easily slip in for his CA
-Phyrexian Dreadnought = since stifle is already run, the ability to stifle-nought combo and land a 12/12 trampler for 2 is very tempting.
Lands: At first glance, the manabase looks a tad odd, but TEAM is fully capable of running off 2 or 3 functional lands. All lands in here are fetch, classic duals, or wastelands. There is no need for basics, since it presses on the ideology of being efficient. 20 lands is the set number players run with, although 18 and 19 have been seen.
6-10 dual lands / 4 wastelands / everything else is a fetchland / no basics
Literal Strategy: I will be vague here, only because the decklists paint the picture quite clearly. TEAM is first and foremost a deck that takes the initiative. It strives to make the opponent deal with denial, fall behind in board position, and overextend to catch up. As the opponent "takes the bait" and falls victim to being pressured, they should walk into your free/cheap removal + fall victim to stifle/daze effects. Goyf and Stalker are commonly played to finish the game, although if an opportunity presents itself (opponent stalling on lands), end things early.
Vague sample games, should your gameplan be working:
A) Pretty Tempo = T1 Thoughtseize > T2 sinkhole > T3 Stifle + Daze > T4 Tombstalker
B) Tempo Crazy = T1 Stifle > T2 Smother > T3 Goyf + Snuff Out > T4 beatdown
C) Hard LD = T1 Stifle > T2 Sinkhole > T3 Wasteland + possible Tombstalker
D) Denial = T1 Ponder/Brainstorm + Daze > T2 thoughseize > T3 Goyf + Snuff Out
E) LD Stalker = T1 Thoughtseize > T2 Sinkhole > T3 Brainstorm, Wasteland, possible Tombstalker
F) Hard Denial = T1 Daze > T2 wasteland them > T3 Smother/Sinkhole/Snuff Out > T4 Goyf
G) Blitz = T1 Thoughtseize + Daze > T2 Ponder/Brainstorm + Snuff Out > T3 Goyf
Ultimately, you should be the most dominating force in the Turns 1-4 window. Turns 1/2 should be spent denying opponents (discard, LD, stifle fetchlands). Turns 3/4 should see you continue the denial and culminate in a very powerful creature. You can alternatively drop a powerhouse, ie; goyf, turn 2/3 and "finish off" your denial plans turns 3/4.
I like to understand Team America as tempo-thresh on crack. TEAM will go above and beyond to establish a break-neck pace. TEAM players will be willing to take -1 life off fetchlands, -2 life from thoughtseize, and -4 life from snuff out all in the name of tempo. Other cards like sinkhole and a full set of wastelands are ENTIRELY dedicated to virtually keeping the game "early". The minute the opponent starts establishing itself and gains resources, TEAM needs to be finishing off the game.
Sample Decklists
The simple, cliche list:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
instant [20]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Snuff Out
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
land [20]
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
10 Critters sample
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
2 Trygon Predator
instant [23]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Snuff Out
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
3 Ponder
4 Sinkhole
land [20]
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
10 Critters sample
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
instant [23]
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Snuff Out
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
3 Ponder
4 Sinkhole
land [20]
1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
-Courtesy SCG
9 Critters sample
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
Instants [24]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force Of Will
2 Smother
3 Snuff Out
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
Lands [20]
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard: The sideboard is subject to meta calls. Anything from Tormod's Crypt, Submerge, Pernicious Deed, all the way to Pithing Needle, Exirpate, and Krosan Grip give you fast and efficient denial spells or answer spells.
Problems/Holes:
1. Mana -- with a deck full of nonbasics and only a handful that make mana, you need can't afford to take a hit to the resources. Post-SB non basic hate like Moon effects or Back to Basics/Choke end things quick. Price of Progress is another card that reads "auto loss" if you let it resolve against you.
2. Uber-fast combo -- Ichorid, Reanimator, and Storm/ANT can all blow past the best of decks. Although TEAM runs the reliable Daze + FoW combo, this may not always be enough. This is where spell pierce in the deck shines.
3. Over-Efficiency -- semi-controversial to place this as a major problem, but the truth is that TEAM is so efficient it NEEDS every spell it runs. While this sounds stupid (obviously it needs its spells), it runs such a streamlined plan that if anything goes wrong, a substantial blow to the balls is felt. If you get a sinkhole countered or a goyf STP'ed, your huge momentum suddenly depletes. Is a lone counter the end of the world? No. But with a deck that relies on stomping out others fast through denial and efficiency, there are circumstances and entire matchups where losing a spell sets you back like nothing else.
4. Cost --- The literal cost of TEAM places it at an above average to high cost of MTG ownership
Hopefully this helps get interest spurring with the deck. I personally do not play TEAM AMERICA but I have always found it fascinating. Happy playing guys! ~ Warden
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I've researched other builds on the net and have found a good many with more fetches than targets. As I understand it, Magic 101 says you rarely if ever want to run more fetches than targets.
Does the deck find itself hurting from this? I'm assuming that because the deck has so many denial cards as well as 8 cantrips that it cares more for assuring you hit the color land you need, and then dropping threats immediately. I mean, as a black player myself I rarely if ever find myself above 3 lands in a game (unless I'm against a countertop that stalls the game for 20 minutes -.-).
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Forlorn, the reason is twofold:
1. You need at most 3 lands to run efficiently (of course, more wastelands are better)
2. Library manipulation with Ponder/Bstorm
You can always fetch for nothing (no targets left) should you hit all the duals in the deck already. The reason players run a slew of fetch is to ensure #1 and to build up on #2. It also serves as fuel for Tombstalker and Goyf, which could be a 3rd point (more stalker fuel than goyf)
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
What do you want to needle? Wasted SB slots imo. It hits vial, but against, say, merfolk, what do you side out for them? Much like tempo thresh, your SB cards need to play the tempo game too instead of the heavy control role because you quickly get outmatched there.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK Level 4 Bad Guy
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
deeds is just too slow for this deck. and a reset button shouldn't be needed, as your permission and removal should be more than enough.
engineered explosives is another story though.. it doubles as hate for several matches. ichorid's zombie tokens, empty the warren tokens, challace of the void, .... e.e. is just faster and better imo.
@ warden- thank you for donating your time to this primer, it looks great. maybe we can add to it over time; is it too much to ask to add the sideboards for those decks listed in the primer?
also, this may be debated, but your description of thoughtsieze may be off...
i've been told by a much more experienced pilot, that it's almost NEVER played turn one, unless against combo. there are so few threats in the deck, that you absolutly HAVE to make sure they stick. so you take their removal before dropping a threat, with counter back up as well for their lucky topdecks. early game you should be hitting lands, countering stuff, and using removal.
Also, I would imagine that sinkhole and spell pierce can be a potent pair in the right matchups.
For starters, I like the the start of your primer Warden. Are you going to add matchup analysis whenever you get the time?
Thx. As for matchups, I have no idea, since I do not play the deck. I filled the request for a primer being written so in some ways I'm a mercenary here lol. I do not want to throw in info I do not know/dated material.
***
For those asking about SB's it's all a matter of personal preference and meta to be honest. Deckcheck has a limited number of TA decks so getting an idea from there could be a solid springboard (not to mention what other decks pack and general strategies vs different archetypes)
About pernicious deed --- it's "slow" but it is a combination of preference and meta imo. Yes EE can nail specific cc's easier but deed I believe is meant to be run in the sense that you obliterate the field and drop a finisher. Against all decks, this is just dumb. You'll face counterspells, etc....but against say, enchantress or goblins, deed going off IS game. Some players think it's worth running as a 2x. I am not one to argue this, since as stated I do not play the deck, but I do see the merits of deed. It's not for every matchup but it gives you the game in several circumstances.
***
If I were to suggest things to test, it would be like Cecilia says, Spell Pierce + Sinkhole MD. I think Pierce is too good of a card to skimp over...especially a tempo-driven deck. Spell Snare is questionable (my personal belief). I am a HUGE fan of Sinkhole and it deserves more credit than people give. It acts as LD, feeds Tombstalker, and can knock out key lands -- anything from Mutavaults to opposing Wastelands
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
not only is it slow, but in THIS deck, it's extemely slow.. sometimes it's really hard to hit that third land drop. there are better things to be doing in the early game as well. you'll almost never be able to play and activate in the same turn. in a deck so driven by tempo, it really is a bad choice. i have/sometimes do play this deck, it's just too slow. I've been primarily playing eva green for the last year or two.. i sometimes play it in the board there, but even then it's really slow (another quasi tempo deck with sinkhole, wasteland, snuff out, thoughtseize).
I honestly don't even know how this card got brought up for discussion... has anyone ever seen a list running them?
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i'm more interested in discussing the merrits of running other cards.. since spell pierce has found a home here, it tends to boil down to choosing between thoughtseize and sinkhole.
i personally am on the side of sinkhole, even though i know it's the weekest card in any list. the main problem i have with thoughtseize, is it being proactive instead of reactive.. especially with the inclusion of spell pierce. anyone with experience care to comment?
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30616 = interesting as well
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
both of those were VERY small tournys, and didn't do to well.. seems like someone was just testing out a few theories.
I do like that first 10 monster configuration though.. especially against countertop and stax- tygron preditor is a beast in the right meta.
Looking for opinions on my first attempt at the list.
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
Instants: 18
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Snuff Out
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
Land: 20
1 Bayou
1 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
[180 classic cube]
I played this in GP:Chicago:
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dark Confidant
2 Vendilion Clique
Instants: 24
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of will
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
4 Ponder
Enchantments: 3
3 Standstill
Land: 20
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
6 Island
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Engineered Plague
3 Perish
3 Wipe Away
4 Chill
The Standstills are supposed to be 1 Phyrexian Dreadnought and 2 Trinkbind but a friend told me i could use i Phyrexian Dreadnought and sold it :mad:. I lost my first 2 rounds and won the next 7 then lost the first 2 rounds of day 2. 7-4 isnt a great record but is seems like a move in the right direction. It has card advantage(Dark Confidant) and plays 7 basics which can go a long way (i hard cast FoW like 4 or 5 times). I know this is a huge change but i was wondering what other people thought. I know it's really not Team but it's really not anything else either.
@jamis: I think playing Phyrexian Dreadnought and Sinkhole seems kind of odd. you are planning on not using some of your LD (Stifle) on lands and still keepsing the other 4 cards for the plan. It just seems like you should have a more defined plan/goal rather than wasteing card in hopes of tripping up your opponent.
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But Sometimes They Don't Make Sense
Refrigerator
turn one you want to have mana up for a stifle or spell pierce.
ponder shuffles away crap, top doesn't.
brainstorm puts cards in hand, and gets rid of junk. top doesn't.
top is a mana sink, and we simply don't have the spare mana. i suppose the same reason canadian thresh uses the same draw package, similar mana base, and no top.
When the mana denial works, it is a beautiful thing to watch. If you lead with Verdant Catacombs the opponent puts you on Rock/Eva and doesn't see the Stifle coming.
I think you do need to run something in the area of 8x to 9x fetchlands because it's easy fuel for Tombstalker.
Right now I'm playing a build with 4x Sinkhole MD and 3x Thoughtseize and 3x Engineered Explosives in the SB. Against Zoo or Goblins the EEs will come in. I haven't done a ton of testing with it but EE just seems better than Deed.
having the option of thoutseizing T1 means you're on the play. if this is true,
you have mana open to pierce the vial, or daze either one, or force either one, or snuff out lacky, or smother lacky before it attacks, or drop goyf to block lacky.
so not including thoughtseize, you have 11 cards agaisnt turn one vial (of which ponder and brainstorm also help you find). and even IF vial lands, stifle slows it down.
and you have 12-13 cards against turn one lacky (again, ponder and brainstorm help you find them). again, stifling lacky's triggered ability gives you time to find an answer. and also lets not forget droping goyf to block before lacky can swing.. another 4 cards is 16-17 cards plus stifles to slow if needed.
you shouldn't ever "have" to use thoughtseize if you mulligan and play appropriatly.
and lets not forget, if you're on the play, and you don't know what your opponent is playing, i'd rather stifle, or bluff stifle, or pierce anyway. most decks are highly likely to crack a fetch, or drop a top, or vial, or a bloodmoon, or what have you. by the time you drop your threat daze and pierce might not be so good... thats when you need thoughtsieze, to pick the cheap removal out of their hand.
I've played it recently and its decent against combo, bant, and naya.
but it does have a few issues with late game.
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if it gets to the late game you've probably already lost.
4 Tombstalker
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Stifle
4 Snuff Out
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
My only concern is with sideboarding. I am not really familar enough with the meta to know exactly what hate to pack, so what is this deck weak against?
I am sold on the idea of 4 Spell Pierce and 2 Trygon Predator, and possibly even Force Spike. From testing, it seems like you really don't accrue much card advantage, so you need to counter your opponent's CA. I also need some GY hate in there, probably Tormod's Crypt rather than Relic as I rarely have more than 2 lands to work with.
What am I missing?
goblins always seemed to be an issue for me when i was playing this though. best defense was damnation or jitte.
Shamed to say but I had hard match ups against burn with this deck, I think i approached that match up wrong though.
Twitter- RogueSource.
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Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
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[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!