Now try doing this in 7 on 1 matchups. Several things might happen. You might get both Sol Ring and Signets followed by another opponent deciding to give you a nice Plow Under. Someone drops Exploration Turn 1 and then has 6 lands on turn 2 via Azusa. There's always going to be other broken plays.
It may be, but against the two plays you just put as examples, I might have to point that:
Plow Under guy must be having as crazy accel as you have, to get 5 mana on turn 2, so you're playing in even conditions against him (As he must be running Sol Ring too or to get to 5 mana so fast), besides, Plow Under is no instant, so that means they've just tapped out to take two of your five mana, and that is, if you just passed the turn casting nothing else with those five untapped mana on your second turn, if you summon something, like Uril, the Miststalker, and get it to resolve, you can consider yourself a winner, since you can spend the rest of the game casting auras on him to make it the ultimate voltron machine there (And with Shield of the Oversoul to laugh in the face of Wrath of God anyway)
Example two, Azusa, they end with two untapped mana on turn 2, and with three cards in hand.
You can get more hateful with those 5 untapped mana in your second turn, like start destroying the lands of your opponents with cards that might be so crappy like Yawning Fissure, and increase your advantage even more.
@ Dark Ritual, didn't see your post while I was writing, my bad.
Now try doing this in 7 on 1 matchups. Several things might happen. You might get both Sol Ring and Signets followed by another opponent deciding to give you a nice Plow Under. Someone drops Exploration Turn 1 and then has 6 lands on turn 2 via Azusa. There's always going to be other broken plays.
You couldn't pay me to play in an 8 player game. Turns take to long in games with more than 4 players.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That's the remarkable thing about life. It's never so bad that it can't get worse
Calvin and Hobbes Cube Tutor
If multiplayer EDH were somehow "competitive" then I'd agree Sol Ring should be banned. It's an unbalanced, swingy, auto-include that saps skill and diversity from the format. However I don't think the current ban list has a single card on it that is banned for this reason. Everything on there is one of the following:
1) Expensive AND ubiquitous (power 8, LoA)
2) Pushes out tons of mana (usually unbounded)
3) Part of a degenerate or infinite combo
4) Direct instant win effect vs entire table
5) Locks players down quickly and thorougly (I actually class Emmy here. It's not just that he wins and is hard to answer, it's also what annhilator does to people's morale.)
The ban list currently does not cover cards that are merely "too good" at supporting skilless timmy effects, or stuff you virtually always want like lightning greaves. Were this to be a consideration the ban list would start looking quite longer. But you'd also have to convince the rule commitee first of all that banning merely overpowered cards is actually relevant, because right now that is not on their agenda.
If EDH somehow became "competitive", it then loses it's core principles. If it WAS a tournament worthy head to head format, then hell... ban away. But it shouldn't be. I don't think Wizards will make it that way. I do think that some people may throw a tournament like that. Let them define their own rules. Ban whatever you want. Live the way you want to live brother, this is casual. Have some fun.
I was going to post this really long post with valid arguments... but I can just see too many people giving it the "tl;dr" treatment. So I'll be quick.
1. I think its worth CONSIDERATION
2. I think "The Bringers" should be allowed in mono-colored decks (this is more of a rant of mine)
3. Its a newly adopted (yet mysteriously old) format that is rapidly expanding.... Lets everyone just chill out while we make sure this thing is stable AND fun....
4. The extraordinarily large card pool makes it susceptible to bizarre card interactions and combos.
5. EVERYONE knows that the card is STUPID strong. Find me a stronger turn 1 EDH move - and you'll probably be using many other cards, or one that's already banned.
6. Artifacts are BROKEN. They do EVERYTHING... is it really a surprise that someone would think banning it would be a good idea?
7. Politics isn't the answer. Someone makes a runaway move on turn 1,2, or 3... Sometimes they just run away with it. Also - sometimes people make bad decisions. Ever play with new people? Or even someone who just hasn't seen any of these freaking cards before? Yeah, they'll attack WHOEVER just because they don't have creatures... Regardless of any actual board position. Good luck explaining to them why an artifact that adds 2, for the cost of 1 is an awesome first turn move.
8. Spirit Of the Game is the biggest (and one of the strongest) arguments for the potential ban. As I first read an article about the format - it was explained by citing a pair of players going back and forth playing HUGE spells... Something that wouldn't really be possible in standard, since most games end rather quickly (Well before the 20-30 mana threshold that many Commander games meet so readily). This is what drew me in, as well as many other players I'm sure. Its a format of BIG spells and BIG plays... But I don't really want either of those happening on turn three... There is a solid reason for "un-fun" cards to be banned. If you want to go ahead and be a jerk, fill your deck with mana-producing artifacts and Armageddon effects, no one will stop you. But we will stop playing with you. Because you're a jerk, and you should probably just play Modern or Legacy if you want to make moves like that.
The format I want? I want someone to cast Radiate on a Memory Plunder - then Reiterate Memory Plunder when someone goes to counter it to play something else equally ridiculous, then re-cast Reiterate on Radiate targeting one of the spells you just Memory Plundered!
Not:
Turn 1: Land, Sol Ring, Fellware Stone (or some OTHER mana artifact)
Turn 2: Land, Doubling Season
Turn 3: Elspeth, Knight Errant: GUESS WHAT ALL MY STUFF IS INDESTRUCTIBLE.
Turn 4: Does this even matter?
In sum: consider it. I know there are many of you who are of the "Don't do it" group. I'm sure you also liked playing with Jace, The Mind Sculptor, Affinity and god only knows what else... I get it- Its fun to play with cards that aren't just good--- but GREAT. And it sucks to trade for those cards and have them turned around and banned from play. But I'd rather have a healthy format than squeal like a girl just because I get to do Turn 4 things on turn 2.
The thing is, there is nothing to consider. In a perfect world where somebody gets a Turn 3 Elspeth Ultimate... well, Good Game. The decent thing to do at that point would be scoop and play another game. It's not going to happen enough to consider it as 'breaking' the format. It happens just often enough that it makes things exciting. It gives little timmy a Turn 2 Baneslayer Angel or big bad spike a Plow Under and a target on his head.
It's casual. It's not the end of the world. Play on.
7. Politics isn't the answer. Someone makes a runaway move on turn 1,2, or 3... Sometimes they just run away with it. Also - sometimes people make bad decisions. Ever play with new people? Or even someone who just hasn't seen any of these freaking cards before? Yeah, they'll attack WHOEVER just because they don't have creatures... Regardless of any actual board position. Good luck explaining to them why an artifact that adds 2, for the cost of 1 is an awesome first turn move.
Again, I really have to disagree here. If you are in a four person game. You drop a strong 4 or 5 CMC creature on turn 2 when the other 3 players in the game maybe have dropped mana dorks at best... you become the target. On turn 2... your opponents are going to spend their resources going after the guy that is two turns ahead rather than go after the other two players that don't have as threatening a board position.
I really like how people when people argue that politics won't matter, it's usually right after saying how powerful a turn 1 Sol Ring play is. So literally you are going "Playing Sol Ring turn 1 is an incredibly broken move. Ban the card!" and then seconds later "What? The other players aren't going to gun after you if you attempt to make this move!"
And to your comment about new players... you are right. Say you are playing with two absolute noobs playing with the decks you can buy from the store. You are a player that is playing a legit competitive EDH deck, and your opponent drops Sol Ring turn 1 and proceeds to jack you up. Once you are out of the game, he proceeds to beat the other two players because they are playing vastly inferior decks. That can happen. But that doesn't mean Sol Ring is broken, that means you essentially just played a 1 on 1 game with the guy and he beat you... and then beat two noobs at the same time. I mean, lets ban Ravenous Baloth because when I play him against beginners I always win.
Not:
Turn 1: Land, Sol Ring, Fellware Stone (or some OTHER mana artifact)
Turn 2: Land, Doubling Season
Turn 3: Elspeth, Knight Errant: GUESS WHAT ALL MY STUFF IS INDESTRUCTIBLE.
Turn 4: Does this even matter?
Turn 1: Land, Birds of Paradise
Turn 2: Land, Harrow, Signet (or w/e 2 cost spell)
Turn 3: Doubling Season
Turn 4: Elspeth, Knight Errant: GUESS WHAT ALL MY STUFF IS INDESTRUCTIBLE.
A turn slower. But when it comes to the effect of making all of your stuff indestructible... that extra turn isn't really making that much of a difference. I suppose they have an extra turn to play enchantment destruction, but then again Doubling Season isn't really seen as such a threatening card so you should be able to combo off regardless.
And this really is the other argument when it comes to Sol Ring. You untap with it turn 2 and you have a big tempo boost, sure... but with a lot of other decks playing some form of ramp. We're liable to see starts that are just as explosive. I imagine any deck playing green is probably packing 3 or 4 mana dorks and probably a few land fetch spells like Harrow. So playing something on turn 3 that costs 5 isn't necessarily that hard to do. And we're just a turn off from Sol Ring + Signet giving you 5 mana on turn 2.
I think the players on the side of banning need to realize what banning does. Banning a card that is not part of a problem combo only opens up the spot for something else to be considered a problem down the road. For example if Sol Ring were banned, then that slot would be filled by the Workshop, 4 months later our OP realizes that he is still getting hammered by the same decks every time so he then claims that Workshop gives an unfair advantage by allowing decks to power out a powerful artifact early and smack him senseless.
I'm not saying Workshop would outright replace Sol Ring I'm just trying to make a point of the slippery slope that the OP needs to realize is going to happen. It happens all the time in Vintage with restrictions and bannings. Something new always rises to the top.
Something else to think about is Green has the lions share of acceleration. The other colours need cards like Sol Ring to keep up. I'm sad to say that I have had to waste a Path to Exile on one of my own creatures just to get a basic land if I fall behind early on the odd occasion.
And while I'm at it I'll put forth that Island should be banned as I have heard Turn 1 Island opens up all kinds of retarded plays like;
Turn 1 Brainstorm or Ponder,
Turn 2 Mana Drain online,
Turn 3 Cast Timewarp or Jace
Turn 4 Control the game & Win
See what I did there, I used your own arguement to ban a basic land.
The fundamental problem with the article is that it's arguing the wrong thing.
Cards don't get banned in EDH because a critical mass of players finds them unbalanced; they get banned because that mass of players finds them unfun. Is Sol Ring unbalanced? Hell yes it is. The article demonstrates that just fine, but it's missing the point.
This just isn't a case that can be won through argument... if the issue was whether Sol Ring was fair or not, you could convince people that it's unfair (it is), and if you convinced enough people it would be banned. But "fun" is totally subjective, and doesn't necessarily have much to do with "fair". Maybe you can disprove someone's idea of "fair," but there's no way to disprove fun.
The only way Sol Ring gets banned is if players' subjective tastes change such that they no longer enjoy the kinds of plays that it enables, and you can't achieve that with a logical argument.
I love how there were several comments basically saying " You got to run hate against sol ring and thats stupid " .......Ummm this is EDH? Why in the world would you not run artifact removal? I can say that every deck someone plays, there is atleast 1 artifact in the deck. If your not packing the removal for artifacts then I think there's just an issue in the deck. It doesn't even have to be alot, just simple spells.
Why in the world would you not run artifact removal?
Because Red and Black are colours too?
Wizards to blame here. Black should get enchantment destruction, red can keep artifact destruction. No reason to have an allied pair unable to deal with a card type.
Not:
Turn 1: Land, Sol Ring, Fellware Stone (or some OTHER mana artifact)
Turn 2: Land, Doubling Season
Turn 3: Elspeth, Knight Errant: GUESS WHAT ALL MY STUFF IS INDESTRUCTIBLE.
Turn 4: Does this even matter?
Luckily there's still access to give all that stuff -1/-1 counters, exile them, bounce them, force you to sac them, steal them, someone attacks with unblockable, etc.etc. It would be annoying on turn 4 but still, you can get around that.
Wizards to blame here. Black should get enchantment destruction, red can keep artifact destruction. No reason to have an allied pair unable to deal with a card type.
Hehe well red has it, Black is a bit ....well screwed. But they do have sacrifice abilities so...yea.. lol.
You couldn't pay me to play in an 8 player game. Turns take to long in games with more than 4 players.
Well you can have 2 players take turns at the same time and stuff like that to speed it up.
Ofcourse use shortcuts if you tutor for a card, just say what card you want and play as you allready would have it ; just search later.
Its not as crazy slow as you might think ; if players play accordingly ; or you simply use a "Doom clock" (like 30 seconds, than turn simply ends right away).
At this point the thread has devolved completely into the anecdotal evidence and repetitive arguments that we've all seen before.
So here's one more thing to think about:
If Sol Ring still cost 1 but tapped for 3, would you want it to be banned in this format? How about 5?
If you'd still want Super-Sol Ring in the format, there's not much I can say to you. Game balance is not important to you. You value unpredictability so highly that you don't mind when one player starts the game with a massive resource advantage.
Now suppose you do want to ban it. But guess what: it still doesn't fit the banning principles of Commander! Super-Sol Ring is at least as nuts in Vintage as it is in Commander.
But the card is so overpowered that you may feel compelled to step in on power level alone. So now you're arbitrarily putting a line in the sand. This line doesn't split fair cards from unfair cards. It doesn't even split broken cards from the only-somewhat-unfair.
In terms of game balance (which is key to the long term viability of a game) Sol Ring was a design mistake, like many other well known cards from early in the game. It's way over the top on power level. This has been admitted repeatedly by even those who most staunchly oppose the banning. You'd be putting a dividing line somewhere between "what were they thinking when they printed this?" and "what were they smoking when they printed this!?"
You're wrong. You say that this argument has devolved into old habits, but you're just ignoring some of the facts brought up against you. You made some pretty poor points in this article. You lacked a strong point to actually ban Sol Ring. Your views reflect guess work opinions more so than concrete math. Even your math relied on scenarios that you seemed to make up to support your case.
Sol Ring is a very powerful card. Having one copy of it in a 100 card singleton deck is not going to consistently break the format. Turn 1 Sol Ring will not define the meta game. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill.
You were the one bringing Sol Ring to the table for banishment, yet you supplied absolutely no shred of evidence that supports it against the criteria that EDH uses to choose banishment.
You don't seem to have the credentials or intelligence to formulate a strong enough argument against Sol Ring in EDH. All you do is create scenarios that have absolutely no merit on actual game play.
A super-sol ring? Really?? 1 mana for 5 mana? That's your argument. That has absolutely no bearing what so ever on the playability of Sol Ring in this format. These baseless points you make only hurt your overall movement.
At this point the thread has devolved completely into the anecdotal evidence and repetitive arguments that we've all seen before.
Wow, That is the Pot calling the Kettle black. Your entire arguement in the article was based on anecdotal evidence. Granted you showed your math for some of it, (you failed to acknowledge that your math works for the other 11,000+ cards available, some of which do crazy things like Sol Ring) but it was incomplete in showing what happens after Sol Ring hits the board.
Balance can be achieved through other methods. It has been stated repeatedly in this thread that you can choose not to play with it, not to allow it in your playgroup, or go play something else where it is banned.
Maybe you need to ask yourself a few questions:
1. Did my opponent animate his Sol Ring and swing at me 40 times?
2. If answered yes to #1, Ask yourself is your skill level adequate? Answer: probably not. If answered no to #1 Then Sol Ring did not kill you.
3. Does my opponent consistently have Sol Ring Turn 1? Answer: He might be cheating.
4. Is my deck always behind in mana ramp?
5. If yes to #4. Is my deck building that bad? Answer: Probably.
Edit:
Also note that when other writers bring up the case for a card banning in any format, they show extensive research and proof to validate their case. Also they are usually players that have a certain level of elite and respect from the community, and quite frankly you have neither.
I was going to post this really long post with valid arguments... but I can just see too many people giving it the "tl;dr" treatment. So I'll be quick.
1. I think its worth CONSIDERATION
2. I think "The Bringers" should be allowed in mono-colored decks (this is more of a rant of mine)
3. Its a newly adopted (yet mysteriously old) format that is rapidly expanding.... Lets everyone just chill out while we make sure this thing is stable AND fun....
4. The extraordinarily large card pool makes it susceptible to bizarre card interactions and combos.
5. EVERYONE knows that the card is STUPID strong. Find me a stronger turn 1 EDH move - and you'll probably be using many other cards, or one that's already banned.
6. Artifacts are BROKEN. They do EVERYTHING... is it really a surprise that someone would think banning it would be a good idea?
7. Politics isn't the answer. Someone makes a runaway move on turn 1,2, or 3... Sometimes they just run away with it. Also - sometimes people make bad decisions. Ever play with new people? Or even someone who just hasn't seen any of these freaking cards before? Yeah, they'll attack WHOEVER just because they don't have creatures... Regardless of any actual board position. Good luck explaining to them why an artifact that adds 2, for the cost of 1 is an awesome first turn move.
8. Spirit Of the Game is the biggest (and one of the strongest) arguments for the potential ban. As I first read an article about the format - it was explained by citing a pair of players going back and forth playing HUGE spells... Something that wouldn't really be possible in standard, since most games end rather quickly (Well before the 20-30 mana threshold that many Commander games meet so readily). This is what drew me in, as well as many other players I'm sure. Its a format of BIG spells and BIG plays... But I don't really want either of those happening on turn three... There is a solid reason for "un-fun" cards to be banned. If you want to go ahead and be a jerk, fill your deck with mana-producing artifacts and Armageddon effects, no one will stop you. But we will stop playing with you. Because you're a jerk, and you should probably just play Modern or Legacy if you want to make moves like that.
The format I want? I want someone to cast Radiate on a Memory Plunder - then Reiterate Memory Plunder when someone goes to counter it to play something else equally ridiculous, then re-cast Reiterate on Radiate targeting one of the spells you just Memory Plundered!
Not:
Turn 1: Land, Sol Ring, Fellware Stone (or some OTHER mana artifact)
Turn 2: Land, Doubling Season
Turn 3: Elspeth, Knight Errant: GUESS WHAT ALL MY STUFF IS INDESTRUCTIBLE.
Turn 4: Does this even matter?
In sum: consider it. I know there are many of you who are of the "Don't do it" group. I'm sure you also liked playing with Jace, The Mind Sculptor, Affinity and god only knows what else... I get it- Its fun to play with cards that aren't just good--- but GREAT. And it sucks to trade for those cards and have them turned around and banned from play. But I'd rather have a healthy format than squeal like a girl just because I get to do Turn 4 things on turn 2.
Yes, after Turn 4 does matter. You've put yourself in a very difficult to unseat position, but it's not like it can't be made low. Indestructible doesn't stop infect. Indestructable doesn't stop wither. You still have to fight your way through and entire table of people before you claim the victory. My Xiahou Dun deck specifically runs Glistening Oil,Crypt Rats, Contagion Engine and Corrosive Mentor such to deal with such indestructibility shenanigans.
You'll still need to get through at one player for the 40 or 21 damage, and then do it again X (2-6) times. People aren't just going to sit and stare.
Is banning Sol Ring worth consideration? Sure.
But if you got the pulse of the community, I think you'd find that most people don't find it all to ridiculous, and while yes, a turn 1 Sol ring can be overpowering, it's usually case is that it ends up speeding up the midgame, allowing people to get to the interesting, meaty part of the format with less of the 2-3 turn build up while sit and stare. 1v1 play doesn't have this go on, because the deck construction is entirely different- certain play and kills which are "the nuts" in 1v1 will get your head thumped in multiplayer. Xiahou Dun/Hatred is a good for instance. It will take out one player, and then leave you swinging in the wind, a massive target for all.
I may be slightly biased- I see Sol Ring as the marquee card for the EDH format, and I have to feel that Wizards agrees, thanks to it's inclusion in each of the Commander decks. If, god forbid, Commander ever became a legit tournament format... then yes, Sol Ring would be one of the first things to go. But in EDH in it's current state, if you're the kind of guy who will always try to mull into the turn 1 Sol Ring, and build your deck to have won the game in the first several turns, you're being a douchebag, not "getting it", and will probably very quickly find yourself without people wanting to play against you, as there's no prize for winning, and no reward for playing other than the enjoyment of the game.
I don't draw my line between "how could they print that" and "what were they smoking when the printed that". I place it between "I make it difficult for people to play the game they want to" and "Ha ha, you'll never play anything, do anything of interest or do anything but sit there and watch me gloat because on this table I am god"
At this point the thread has devolved completely into the anecdotal evidence and repetitive arguments that we've all seen before.
So here's one more thing to think about:
If Sol Ring still cost 1 but tapped for 3, would you want it to be banned in this format? How about 5?
If you'd still want Super-Sol Ring in the format, there's not much I can say to you. Game balance is not important to you. You value unpredictability so highly that you don't mind when one player starts the game with a massive resource advantage.
Now suppose you do want to ban it. But guess what: it still doesn't fit the banning principles of Commander! Super-Sol Ring is at least as nuts in Vintage as it is in Commander.
But the card is so overpowered that you may feel compelled to step in on power level alone. So now you're arbitrarily putting a line in the sand. This line doesn't split fair cards from unfair cards. It doesn't even split broken cards from the only-somewhat-unfair.
In terms of game balance (which is key to the long term viability of a game) Sol Ring was a design mistake, like many other well known cards from early in the game. It's way over the top on power level. This has been admitted repeatedly by even those who most staunchly oppose the banning. You'd be putting a dividing line somewhere between "what were they thinking when they printed this?" and "what were they smoking when they printed this!?"
Yes, in terms of outright balance it was a mistake and it will never be in standard again, but EDH is not standard and trying to balance edh is both a monumental task and a ludicrous idea. Try to balance planechase or archenemy. Balance simply isn't the point of EDH.
I think the metric you have to use is the typical plays in the format. At 2 the mana output isn't pulling you into a T4 win against the table typically. At 5 I think you're past the point of tolerability, but then we don't need to worry about banning such cards because they will never see the light of day. Even baby WOTC was able to see anything bigger than black lotus would be too much. The principles are for banning cards, not for card design. They are just cleaning up WOTC's messes.
If Sol Ring still cost 1 but tapped for 3, would you want it to be banned in this format? How about 5?
If you'd still want Super-Sol Ring in the format, there's not much I can say to you. Game balance is not important to you. You value unpredictability so highly that you don't mind when one player starts the game with a massive resource advantage.
Whether Sol Ring tapped for 3 or 5 is neither here nor there - "Super Sol Ring" doesn't exist, but real Sol Ring does, and it doesn't do that.
Now suppose you do want to ban it. But guess what: it still doesn't fit the banning principles of Commander! Super-Sol Ring is at least as nuts in Vintage as it is in Commander.
I disagree, actually. The fact we're playing with 100-card singleton cuts a huge amount of consistency in hands, and therefore a huge amount of power from Super-Sol Ring (presuming this argument even mattered). As I was trying to argue before, Sol Ring (or Super-Sol Ring) is not, in-and-of-itself, a win condition. You still need to draw something else to go berserk with it. And the probability of doing so is very slim. Period.
Everyone else's turn 3: swing at Elspeth since you have a two 1/1's to block
Or Vindicate, or Boomerang, Or O-Ring, or any number of other ways to deal with a permanent that is causing you a problem.
Um, you're aware that the person doing Doubling Season + Elspeth will cast her, retain priority, and ultimate her immediately, right? No warm up is required. You don't get a turn to swing at her before she goes off, and she kills herself by doing this combo. Are you sure you're thinking about the right Elspeth? We're talking about Elspeth, Knight-Errant here, not Elspeth Tirel.
That said, while you can just use things like All is Dust and Black Sun's Zenith still, this move is nasty enough that the best advice is the General EDH Douchebag Rule: if someone won't quit abusing an absurd combo, stop playing with them, or else include some vicious hate against their deck. Sometimes all the punishment someone needs is getting their general Hindered to the bottom to get their attention. Sometimes Head Games is called for instead. Obviously none of these are perfect fixes. But in almost all circumstances, the solution to unfun plays and unfun players is easy to find when you realize you can always choose not to play with douchebags.
I love how there were several comments basically saying " You got to run hate against sol ring and thats stupid " .......Ummm this is EDH? Why in the world would you not run artifact removal? I can say that every deck someone plays, there is atleast 1 artifact in the deck. If your not packing the removal for artifacts then I think there's just an issue in the deck. It doesn't even have to be alot, just simple spells.
Indeed. If you sit down at a four-player table and there aren't at least two or three disk effects hiding amongst the various decks, then your friends need to be better players. Heck, Planar Cleansing is the weakest of them but it's what, 50 cents? O-Stone's like 3 bucks. There's no reason a deck should be unable to do board wipes.
Leave Sol Ring alone - there are much worse things that spoil the fun like Obliterate, Matt playing forbid 3 times every turn, and most of all in my book - frickin Darksteel Colossus....srsly whenever one of those comes down it just ends up killing everyone.
This. I have no problem with occasionally having to deal with an opponent who's gone runaway off a turn one sol ring -> signet. TBH it always makes me glad since I usually wear the Target Hat from turn one in my playgroup since I have a much larger collection than most of my friends and my decks are generally acknowledged to be strong. Even if I'm not trying to do anything nasty, I still take most of the extra, early game "well, I've got this creature, so..." type attacks. So I'm thrilled when another player takes the heat off me for a while in this way.
40 life. You can catch up. Or not, if it's some d-bag combo deck with about 15 tutors. In that case, see above, re: not playing with douchebags. Problem solved.
Sol Ring is a very powerful card. Having one copy of it in a 100 card singleton deck is not going to consistently break the format. Turn 1 Sol Ring will not define the meta game. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Indeed. The only cards that ought to be banned are abusive combo-only pieces (Kokusho) or cards that just say "I win" on the spot (Emrakul, Biorhythm).
I would personally also consider a broad-scale ban on most tutors. I know this idea would be very unpopular, but I've seen too many U/B decks that use a dozen tutor effects to chain into each other so they can set up the same combo reliably every game. Most of these decks fold to a resolved Stranglehold or Mindlock Orb, which is a clue that they're too narrow. But what if your deck is G/B? You have no real defense except trying to point a removal at whatever the core of their engine is and pray they can't go off again on top. So the argument could be made that if the combo player's opponents had tutors, they can find their answers to the tutors.
I know tutors probably will never be mass-banned. Too many enjoy them (same reason as Sol Ring). But I think they are far more warping as a class to the "spirit of EDH" than any individual mana accelerant could be, because they make games homogenous, which is against the spirit of the singleton format.
P.S. to OP, no, I wasn't confusing Mana Vault with Mana Crypt. I'm a bit insulted that you think I'd be capable of confusing a four dollar EDH staple with an 80 dollar card that only showoffs and douchebags would put in an EDH deck. Mana Vault is a fine accelerant and in many ways as broken as Sol Ring, or have you never seen a Voltaic Key in your life? There are so many ways to cheat its untap cost, it's absurd. Besides, it allows a 5-CMC general to be cast on turn 2, which by your own logic is busted. But don't let me dissuade you from your crusade...
Um, you're aware that the person doing Doubling Season + Elspeth will cast her, retain priority, and ultimate her immediately, right? No warm up is required. You don't get a turn to swing at her before she goes off, and she kills herself by doing this combo. Are you sure you're thinking about the right Elspeth? We're talking about Elspeth, Knight-Errant here, not Elspeth Tirel.
That said, while you can just use things like All is Dust and Black Sun's Zenith still, this move is nasty enough that the best advice is the General EDH Douchebag Rule: if someone won't quit abusing an absurd combo, stop playing with them, or else include some vicious hate against their deck. Sometimes all the punishment someone needs is getting their general Hindered to the bottom to get their attention. Sometimes Head Games is called for instead. Obviously none of these are perfect fixes. But in almost all circumstances, the solution to unfun plays and unfun players is easy to find when you realize you can always choose not to play with douchebags.
Indeed. If you sit down at a four-player table and there aren't at least two or three disk effects hiding amongst the various decks, then your friends need to be better players. Heck, Planar Cleansing is the weakest of them but it's what, 50 cents? O-Stone's like 3 bucks. There's no reason a deck should be unable to do board wipes.
This. I have no problem with occasionally having to deal with an opponent who's gone runaway off a turn one sol ring -> signet. TBH it always makes me glad since I usually wear the Target Hat from turn one in my playgroup since I have a much larger collection than most of my friends and my decks are generally acknowledged to be strong. Even if I'm not trying to do anything nasty, I still take most of the extra, early game "well, I've got this creature, so..." type attacks. So I'm thrilled when another player takes the heat off me for a while in this way.
40 life. You can catch up. Or not, if it's some d-bag combo deck with about 15 tutors. In that case, see above, re: not playing with douchebags. Problem solved.
Indeed. The only cards that ought to be banned are abusive combo-only pieces (Kokusho) or cards that just say "I win" on the spot (Emrakul, Biorhythm).
I would personally also consider a broad-scale ban on most tutors. I know this idea would be very unpopular, but I've seen too many U/B decks that use a dozen tutor effects to chain into each other so they can set up the same combo reliably every game. Most of these decks fold to a resolved Stranglehold or Mindlock Orb, which is a clue that they're too narrow. But what if your deck is G/B? You have no real defense except trying to point a removal at whatever the core of their engine is and pray they can't go off again on top. So the argument could be made that if the combo player's opponents had tutors, they can find their answers to the tutors.
I know tutors probably will never be mass-banned. Too many enjoy them (same reason as Sol Ring). But I think they are far more warping as a class to the "spirit of EDH" than any individual mana accelerant could be, because they make games homogenous, which is against the spirit of the singleton format.
P.S. to OP, no, I wasn't confusing Mana Vault with Mana Crypt. I'm a bit insulted that you think I'd be capable of confusing a four dollar EDH staple with an 80 dollar card that only showoffs and douchebags would put in an EDH deck. Mana Vault is a fine accelerant and in many ways as broken as Sol Ring, or have you never seen a Voltaic Key in your life? There are so many ways to cheat its untap cost, it's absurd. Besides, it allows a 5-CMC general to be cast on turn 2, which by your own logic is busted. But don't let me dissuade you from your crusade...
Actually, I'd put a Mana Crypt in a deck that also featured Fiery Gambit and Chance Encounter.
Heck, if Karpulsan Minotaur was a legend, I'd make that deck. Soon as a coin-flip Commander is released that plays well with Red, I'm probably going to have to build that deck.
It might just me, but I find the concept absolutely hilarious, and quite in keeping with the overkill and "ridiculous things" that permeate EDH.
Sol Ring is powerful enough that it makes any deck better. When cast on turn one, the tempo boost is so severe that the rest of the table is compelled to gang up on whoever cast it.
Sure, everyone acknowledges that Sol Ring is a powerful card and is a likely addition to any deck. However, you haven't demonstrated (a) just how powerful a tempo boost affects the rest of the game and (b) how likely a scenario it is. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence in your article and in various posts, but the question is just how likely that scenario is in the early turns of the game. That would demonstrate Sol Ring is a problem.
And if you're going to let politics into the equation, then I think it is reasonable to acknowledge that sometimes creates its own solution to a problem. In which case, you have to expand such an analysis to consider the other players to the game and how likely they may be able to disrupt or stop such a play that early. (Which could potentially support an argument of how Sol Ring is "super broken".)
For a card to be considered for banning (or kept banned), it should be causing problems in EDH games due to one of three things:
1. Its power level in multiplayer EDH is signficantly higher than both what's expected for its mana cost AND it's power level in other formats (due to different rules or game sizes). [Examples include Panoptic Mirror and Biorythm] 2. it's dollar cost is prohibitive for most players and the card usually detracts from the playing experience of everyone in the game [The Power 8].
3. it belogs to a class of cards which can't be consistantly interpreted by all players [Silver bordered cards, dexterity cards]
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
It may be, but against the two plays you just put as examples, I might have to point that:
Plow Under guy must be having as crazy accel as you have, to get 5 mana on turn 2, so you're playing in even conditions against him (As he must be running Sol Ring too or to get to 5 mana so fast), besides, Plow Under is no instant, so that means they've just tapped out to take two of your five mana, and that is, if you just passed the turn casting nothing else with those five untapped mana on your second turn, if you summon something, like Uril, the Miststalker, and get it to resolve, you can consider yourself a winner, since you can spend the rest of the game casting auras on him to make it the ultimate voltron machine there (And with Shield of the Oversoul to laugh in the face of Wrath of God anyway)
Example two, Azusa, they end with two untapped mana on turn 2, and with three cards in hand.
You can get more hateful with those 5 untapped mana in your second turn, like start destroying the lands of your opponents with cards that might be so crappy like Yawning Fissure, and increase your advantage even more.
@ Dark Ritual, didn't see your post while I was writing, my bad.
Fan of Both old and new Slivers (But the new ones are still better anyway)
C Call of Emrakul - G vs R DD: Elves vs. Goblins - W vs B DD: Divine vs. Demonic - WUB Esper Artifice - RGW Aura Dancers
WUBRG Wrath of the Reaper King - WB Men of Faith - B Mercenaries - UB Phyrexian Assault 2.0 - WU Artifacts of Empires
BR Skeleton Warriors - RG Night of The Howlpack - B Bog Murderers - BR Eldrazi Assault - BGU Ulamog's Swarm
You couldn't pay me to play in an 8 player game. Turns take to long in games with more than 4 players.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
1) Expensive AND ubiquitous (power 8, LoA)
2) Pushes out tons of mana (usually unbounded)
3) Part of a degenerate or infinite combo
4) Direct instant win effect vs entire table
5) Locks players down quickly and thorougly (I actually class Emmy here. It's not just that he wins and is hard to answer, it's also what annhilator does to people's morale.)
The ban list currently does not cover cards that are merely "too good" at supporting skilless timmy effects, or stuff you virtually always want like lightning greaves. Were this to be a consideration the ban list would start looking quite longer. But you'd also have to convince the rule commitee first of all that banning merely overpowered cards is actually relevant, because right now that is not on their agenda.
LISTEN TO MAH SONGZ!
@BillyTheFridge
1. I think its worth CONSIDERATION
2. I think "The Bringers" should be allowed in mono-colored decks (this is more of a rant of mine)
3. Its a newly adopted (yet mysteriously old) format that is rapidly expanding.... Lets everyone just chill out while we make sure this thing is stable AND fun....
4. The extraordinarily large card pool makes it susceptible to bizarre card interactions and combos.
5. EVERYONE knows that the card is STUPID strong. Find me a stronger turn 1 EDH move - and you'll probably be using many other cards, or one that's already banned.
6. Artifacts are BROKEN. They do EVERYTHING... is it really a surprise that someone would think banning it would be a good idea?
7. Politics isn't the answer. Someone makes a runaway move on turn 1,2, or 3... Sometimes they just run away with it. Also - sometimes people make bad decisions. Ever play with new people? Or even someone who just hasn't seen any of these freaking cards before? Yeah, they'll attack WHOEVER just because they don't have creatures... Regardless of any actual board position. Good luck explaining to them why an artifact that adds 2, for the cost of 1 is an awesome first turn move.
8. Spirit Of the Game is the biggest (and one of the strongest) arguments for the potential ban. As I first read an article about the format - it was explained by citing a pair of players going back and forth playing HUGE spells... Something that wouldn't really be possible in standard, since most games end rather quickly (Well before the 20-30 mana threshold that many Commander games meet so readily). This is what drew me in, as well as many other players I'm sure.
Its a format of BIG spells and BIG plays... But I don't really want either of those happening on turn three... There is a solid reason for "un-fun" cards to be banned. If you want to go ahead and be a jerk, fill your deck with mana-producing artifacts and Armageddon effects, no one will stop you. But we will stop playing with you. Because you're a jerk, and you should probably just play Modern or Legacy if you want to make moves like that.
The format I want? I want someone to cast Radiate on a Memory Plunder - then Reiterate Memory Plunder when someone goes to counter it to play something else equally ridiculous, then re-cast Reiterate on Radiate targeting one of the spells you just Memory Plundered!
Not:
Turn 1: Land, Sol Ring, Fellware Stone (or some OTHER mana artifact)
Turn 2: Land, Doubling Season
Turn 3: Elspeth, Knight Errant: GUESS WHAT ALL MY STUFF IS INDESTRUCTIBLE.
Turn 4: Does this even matter?
In sum: consider it. I know there are many of you who are of the "Don't do it" group. I'm sure you also liked playing with Jace, The Mind Sculptor, Affinity and god only knows what else... I get it- Its fun to play with cards that aren't just good--- but GREAT. And it sucks to trade for those cards and have them turned around and banned from play. But I'd rather have a healthy format than squeal like a girl just because I get to do Turn 4 things on turn 2.
It's casual. It's not the end of the world. Play on.
LISTEN TO MAH SONGZ!
@BillyTheFridge
Again, I really have to disagree here. If you are in a four person game. You drop a strong 4 or 5 CMC creature on turn 2 when the other 3 players in the game maybe have dropped mana dorks at best... you become the target. On turn 2... your opponents are going to spend their resources going after the guy that is two turns ahead rather than go after the other two players that don't have as threatening a board position.
I really like how people when people argue that politics won't matter, it's usually right after saying how powerful a turn 1 Sol Ring play is. So literally you are going "Playing Sol Ring turn 1 is an incredibly broken move. Ban the card!" and then seconds later "What? The other players aren't going to gun after you if you attempt to make this move!"
And to your comment about new players... you are right. Say you are playing with two absolute noobs playing with the decks you can buy from the store. You are a player that is playing a legit competitive EDH deck, and your opponent drops Sol Ring turn 1 and proceeds to jack you up. Once you are out of the game, he proceeds to beat the other two players because they are playing vastly inferior decks. That can happen. But that doesn't mean Sol Ring is broken, that means you essentially just played a 1 on 1 game with the guy and he beat you... and then beat two noobs at the same time. I mean, lets ban Ravenous Baloth because when I play him against beginners I always win.
Turn 1: Land, Birds of Paradise
Turn 2: Land, Harrow, Signet (or w/e 2 cost spell)
Turn 3: Doubling Season
Turn 4: Elspeth, Knight Errant: GUESS WHAT ALL MY STUFF IS INDESTRUCTIBLE.
A turn slower. But when it comes to the effect of making all of your stuff indestructible... that extra turn isn't really making that much of a difference. I suppose they have an extra turn to play enchantment destruction, but then again Doubling Season isn't really seen as such a threatening card so you should be able to combo off regardless.
And this really is the other argument when it comes to Sol Ring. You untap with it turn 2 and you have a big tempo boost, sure... but with a lot of other decks playing some form of ramp. We're liable to see starts that are just as explosive. I imagine any deck playing green is probably packing 3 or 4 mana dorks and probably a few land fetch spells like Harrow. So playing something on turn 3 that costs 5 isn't necessarily that hard to do. And we're just a turn off from Sol Ring + Signet giving you 5 mana on turn 2.
I'm not saying Workshop would outright replace Sol Ring I'm just trying to make a point of the slippery slope that the OP needs to realize is going to happen. It happens all the time in Vintage with restrictions and bannings. Something new always rises to the top.
Something else to think about is Green has the lions share of acceleration. The other colours need cards like Sol Ring to keep up. I'm sad to say that I have had to waste a Path to Exile on one of my own creatures just to get a basic land if I fall behind early on the odd occasion.
And while I'm at it I'll put forth that Island should be banned as I have heard Turn 1 Island opens up all kinds of retarded plays like;
Turn 1 Brainstorm or Ponder,
Turn 2 Mana Drain online,
Turn 3 Cast Timewarp or Jace
Turn 4 Control the game & Win
See what I did there, I used your own arguement to ban a basic land.
Cards don't get banned in EDH because a critical mass of players finds them unbalanced; they get banned because that mass of players finds them unfun. Is Sol Ring unbalanced? Hell yes it is. The article demonstrates that just fine, but it's missing the point.
This just isn't a case that can be won through argument... if the issue was whether Sol Ring was fair or not, you could convince people that it's unfair (it is), and if you convinced enough people it would be banned. But "fun" is totally subjective, and doesn't necessarily have much to do with "fair". Maybe you can disprove someone's idea of "fair," but there's no way to disprove fun.
The only way Sol Ring gets banned is if players' subjective tastes change such that they no longer enjoy the kinds of plays that it enables, and you can't achieve that with a logical argument.
GRFurnace StompR[MANA]G[/MANA]
- Extended -
G[MANA]R[/MANA]Banefire AscensionRG
- Legacy -
GBerserk StompG
Because Red and Black are colours too?
Wizards to blame here. Black should get enchantment destruction, red can keep artifact destruction. No reason to have an allied pair unable to deal with a card type.
Luckily there's still access to give all that stuff -1/-1 counters, exile them, bounce them, force you to sac them, steal them, someone attacks with unblockable, etc.etc. It would be annoying on turn 4 but still, you can get around that.
GRFurnace StompR[MANA]G[/MANA]
- Extended -
G[MANA]R[/MANA]Banefire AscensionRG
- Legacy -
GBerserk StompG
Hehe well red has it, Black is a bit ....well screwed. But they do have sacrifice abilities so...yea.. lol.
GRFurnace StompR[MANA]G[/MANA]
- Extended -
G[MANA]R[/MANA]Banefire AscensionRG
- Legacy -
GBerserk StompG
Well you can have 2 players take turns at the same time and stuff like that to speed it up.
Ofcourse use shortcuts if you tutor for a card, just say what card you want and play as you allready would have it ; just search later.
Its not as crazy slow as you might think ; if players play accordingly ; or you simply use a "Doom clock" (like 30 seconds, than turn simply ends right away).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
So here's one more thing to think about:
If Sol Ring still cost 1 but tapped for 3, would you want it to be banned in this format? How about 5?
If you'd still want Super-Sol Ring in the format, there's not much I can say to you. Game balance is not important to you. You value unpredictability so highly that you don't mind when one player starts the game with a massive resource advantage.
Now suppose you do want to ban it. But guess what: it still doesn't fit the banning principles of Commander! Super-Sol Ring is at least as nuts in Vintage as it is in Commander.
But the card is so overpowered that you may feel compelled to step in on power level alone. So now you're arbitrarily putting a line in the sand. This line doesn't split fair cards from unfair cards. It doesn't even split broken cards from the only-somewhat-unfair.
In terms of game balance (which is key to the long term viability of a game) Sol Ring was a design mistake, like many other well known cards from early in the game. It's way over the top on power level. This has been admitted repeatedly by even those who most staunchly oppose the banning. You'd be putting a dividing line somewhere between "what were they thinking when they printed this?" and "what were they smoking when they printed this!?"
Sol Ring is a very powerful card. Having one copy of it in a 100 card singleton deck is not going to consistently break the format. Turn 1 Sol Ring will not define the meta game. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill.
You were the one bringing Sol Ring to the table for banishment, yet you supplied absolutely no shred of evidence that supports it against the criteria that EDH uses to choose banishment.
You don't seem to have the credentials or intelligence to formulate a strong enough argument against Sol Ring in EDH. All you do is create scenarios that have absolutely no merit on actual game play.
A super-sol ring? Really?? 1 mana for 5 mana? That's your argument. That has absolutely no bearing what so ever on the playability of Sol Ring in this format. These baseless points you make only hurt your overall movement.
Sol Ring is here to stay.
LISTEN TO MAH SONGZ!
@BillyTheFridge
Wow, That is the Pot calling the Kettle black. Your entire arguement in the article was based on anecdotal evidence. Granted you showed your math for some of it, (you failed to acknowledge that your math works for the other 11,000+ cards available, some of which do crazy things like Sol Ring) but it was incomplete in showing what happens after Sol Ring hits the board.
Balance can be achieved through other methods. It has been stated repeatedly in this thread that you can choose not to play with it, not to allow it in your playgroup, or go play something else where it is banned.
Maybe you need to ask yourself a few questions:
1. Did my opponent animate his Sol Ring and swing at me 40 times?
2. If answered yes to #1, Ask yourself is your skill level adequate? Answer: probably not. If answered no to #1 Then Sol Ring did not kill you.
3. Does my opponent consistently have Sol Ring Turn 1? Answer: He might be cheating.
4. Is my deck always behind in mana ramp?
5. If yes to #4. Is my deck building that bad? Answer: Probably.
Edit:
Also note that when other writers bring up the case for a card banning in any format, they show extensive research and proof to validate their case. Also they are usually players that have a certain level of elite and respect from the community, and quite frankly you have neither.
Yes, after Turn 4 does matter. You've put yourself in a very difficult to unseat position, but it's not like it can't be made low. Indestructible doesn't stop infect. Indestructable doesn't stop wither. You still have to fight your way through and entire table of people before you claim the victory. My Xiahou Dun deck specifically runs Glistening Oil,Crypt Rats, Contagion Engine and Corrosive Mentor such to deal with such indestructibility shenanigans.
You'll still need to get through at one player for the 40 or 21 damage, and then do it again X (2-6) times. People aren't just going to sit and stare.
Is banning Sol Ring worth consideration? Sure.
But if you got the pulse of the community, I think you'd find that most people don't find it all to ridiculous, and while yes, a turn 1 Sol ring can be overpowering, it's usually case is that it ends up speeding up the midgame, allowing people to get to the interesting, meaty part of the format with less of the 2-3 turn build up while sit and stare. 1v1 play doesn't have this go on, because the deck construction is entirely different- certain play and kills which are "the nuts" in 1v1 will get your head thumped in multiplayer. Xiahou Dun/Hatred is a good for instance. It will take out one player, and then leave you swinging in the wind, a massive target for all.
I may be slightly biased- I see Sol Ring as the marquee card for the EDH format, and I have to feel that Wizards agrees, thanks to it's inclusion in each of the Commander decks. If, god forbid, Commander ever became a legit tournament format... then yes, Sol Ring would be one of the first things to go. But in EDH in it's current state, if you're the kind of guy who will always try to mull into the turn 1 Sol Ring, and build your deck to have won the game in the first several turns, you're being a douchebag, not "getting it", and will probably very quickly find yourself without people wanting to play against you, as there's no prize for winning, and no reward for playing other than the enjoyment of the game.
I don't draw my line between "how could they print that" and "what were they smoking when the printed that". I place it between "I make it difficult for people to play the game they want to" and "Ha ha, you'll never play anything, do anything of interest or do anything but sit there and watch me gloat because on this table I am god"
Yes, in terms of outright balance it was a mistake and it will never be in standard again, but EDH is not standard and trying to balance edh is both a monumental task and a ludicrous idea. Try to balance planechase or archenemy. Balance simply isn't the point of EDH.
I think the metric you have to use is the typical plays in the format. At 2 the mana output isn't pulling you into a T4 win against the table typically. At 5 I think you're past the point of tolerability, but then we don't need to worry about banning such cards because they will never see the light of day. Even baby WOTC was able to see anything bigger than black lotus would be too much. The principles are for banning cards, not for card design. They are just cleaning up WOTC's messes.
Whether Sol Ring tapped for 3 or 5 is neither here nor there - "Super Sol Ring" doesn't exist, but real Sol Ring does, and it doesn't do that.
I disagree, actually. The fact we're playing with 100-card singleton cuts a huge amount of consistency in hands, and therefore a huge amount of power from Super-Sol Ring (presuming this argument even mattered). As I was trying to argue before, Sol Ring (or Super-Sol Ring) is not, in-and-of-itself, a win condition. You still need to draw something else to go berserk with it. And the probability of doing so is very slim. Period.
Um, you're aware that the person doing Doubling Season + Elspeth will cast her, retain priority, and ultimate her immediately, right? No warm up is required. You don't get a turn to swing at her before she goes off, and she kills herself by doing this combo. Are you sure you're thinking about the right Elspeth? We're talking about Elspeth, Knight-Errant here, not Elspeth Tirel.
That said, while you can just use things like All is Dust and Black Sun's Zenith still, this move is nasty enough that the best advice is the General EDH Douchebag Rule: if someone won't quit abusing an absurd combo, stop playing with them, or else include some vicious hate against their deck. Sometimes all the punishment someone needs is getting their general Hindered to the bottom to get their attention. Sometimes Head Games is called for instead. Obviously none of these are perfect fixes. But in almost all circumstances, the solution to unfun plays and unfun players is easy to find when you realize you can always choose not to play with douchebags.
Indeed. If you sit down at a four-player table and there aren't at least two or three disk effects hiding amongst the various decks, then your friends need to be better players. Heck, Planar Cleansing is the weakest of them but it's what, 50 cents? O-Stone's like 3 bucks. There's no reason a deck should be unable to do board wipes.
This. I have no problem with occasionally having to deal with an opponent who's gone runaway off a turn one sol ring -> signet. TBH it always makes me glad since I usually wear the Target Hat from turn one in my playgroup since I have a much larger collection than most of my friends and my decks are generally acknowledged to be strong. Even if I'm not trying to do anything nasty, I still take most of the extra, early game "well, I've got this creature, so..." type attacks. So I'm thrilled when another player takes the heat off me for a while in this way.
40 life. You can catch up. Or not, if it's some d-bag combo deck with about 15 tutors. In that case, see above, re: not playing with douchebags. Problem solved.
Indeed. The only cards that ought to be banned are abusive combo-only pieces (Kokusho) or cards that just say "I win" on the spot (Emrakul, Biorhythm).
I would personally also consider a broad-scale ban on most tutors. I know this idea would be very unpopular, but I've seen too many U/B decks that use a dozen tutor effects to chain into each other so they can set up the same combo reliably every game. Most of these decks fold to a resolved Stranglehold or Mindlock Orb, which is a clue that they're too narrow. But what if your deck is G/B? You have no real defense except trying to point a removal at whatever the core of their engine is and pray they can't go off again on top. So the argument could be made that if the combo player's opponents had tutors, they can find their answers to the tutors.
I know tutors probably will never be mass-banned. Too many enjoy them (same reason as Sol Ring). But I think they are far more warping as a class to the "spirit of EDH" than any individual mana accelerant could be, because they make games homogenous, which is against the spirit of the singleton format.
P.S. to OP, no, I wasn't confusing Mana Vault with Mana Crypt. I'm a bit insulted that you think I'd be capable of confusing a four dollar EDH staple with an 80 dollar card that only showoffs and douchebags would put in an EDH deck. Mana Vault is a fine accelerant and in many ways as broken as Sol Ring, or have you never seen a Voltaic Key in your life? There are so many ways to cheat its untap cost, it's absurd. Besides, it allows a 5-CMC general to be cast on turn 2, which by your own logic is busted. But don't let me dissuade you from your crusade...
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
Actually, I'd put a Mana Crypt in a deck that also featured Fiery Gambit and Chance Encounter.
Heck, if Karpulsan Minotaur was a legend, I'd make that deck. Soon as a coin-flip Commander is released that plays well with Red, I'm probably going to have to build that deck.
It might just me, but I find the concept absolutely hilarious, and quite in keeping with the overkill and "ridiculous things" that permeate EDH.
This statement makes two presumptions:
(1) That a balanced format is a fun format. And, by corollary, the reverse is true.
(2) The presence of Sol Ring has created a warped format.
Do you have any evidence to support those points?
Sure, everyone acknowledges that Sol Ring is a powerful card and is a likely addition to any deck. However, you haven't demonstrated (a) just how powerful a tempo boost affects the rest of the game and (b) how likely a scenario it is. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence in your article and in various posts, but the question is just how likely that scenario is in the early turns of the game. That would demonstrate Sol Ring is a problem.
And if you're going to let politics into the equation, then I think it is reasonable to acknowledge that sometimes creates its own solution to a problem. In which case, you have to expand such an analysis to consider the other players to the game and how likely they may be able to disrupt or stop such a play that early. (Which could potentially support an argument of how Sol Ring is "super broken".)
Moxes meet the criteria. Sol Ring doesn't.
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=227