Q: My opponent casts Volition Reins on Sylvok Replica, which is the only artifact or enchantment on the battlefield. Can I sac the Replica without a legal target?
A: Judge answer: No. Helpful Cranial Insertion answer (because we're still in the Christmas-y mood): You do have a legal target - the Replica itself! Since you choose targets before you pay the costs to activate an ability, the Replica can try and kill itself. Its ability will be countered when it goes to resolve due to the Replica not being there any longer, but luckily the cost of sacrificing it accomplishes that goal just as well.
Is that judge a jerk, or is Cranial Insertion just drunk on cheer? Is the rule really that you choose targets before paying costs??
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I only play Standard and Limited...my comments may reflect that.
And Extended now, stupid addicting game. And legacy. I guess vintage too.
Yes, you choose targets before paying costs. Only this way certain cost reductions/changes can apply.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Original quote byTacosnape "All ideas that give me knowledge without any effort involved on my part are good ideas. Chop chop, my dear fellow."
DCI L2 Judge GP:Madrid 2010 45th GP:Amsterdam 2011 74th GP:London 2013 67th Bazaar of Moxen 2013 32nd
Is that judge a jerk, or is Cranial Insertion just drunk on cheer? Is the rule really that you choose targets before paying costs??
That judge isnt a jerk, just following rules. A judge cannot tell the player that the replica can target itself if the player asks if they can activate an ability without a target. Anything beyond saying "No, you must have a target to use an ability" is gameplay advise, and against the rules.
W may only be paid with white mana. U may only be paid with blue mana. B may only be paid with black mana. R may only be paid with red mana. G may only be paid with green mana. C may only be paid with colorless mana. 1 may be paid with white, blue, black, red, green, or clolorless mana.
Is that judge a jerk, or is Cranial Insertion just drunk on cheer? Is the rule really that you choose targets before paying costs??
Judges can't help you play the game. They can answer rules questions, but they can't tell you what the optimal play is. In this case, the answer to the question "Can I sac the Replica without a legal target for it's ability?" is no.
However, if the player asked "Can I target the Replica with its own ability?", the judge would respond with an affirmative.
When a player loses in a multiplayer game, everything they own leaves the game with them, and all control-changing effects end. Then everything else they controlled, which are usually only things put onto the battlefield under their control with effects such as Bribery, Acquire, Geth, etc., gets exiled.
So if my opponent Briberys a creature out of my deck, and subsequently dies, the creature is exiled, and not put back under my control?
So if my opponent Briberys a creature out of my deck, and subsequently dies, the creature is exiled, and not put back under my control?
The creature was never "under your control" in the first place - it went directly from your library to under your opponent's control on the battlefield. It will be exiled.
I have a question
Let's say that a enginnered plague for elves is in play.
The opponents plays a elvish archdruid that is 1/1 but all other elves get +1/+1.
So if he plays a llanowar elf, does it die or stays in play? does this has to do with layers that you mentioned? (they are both CDA? and they both apply simoultaneously? i mean -1 from Engineered Plage and the +1 from the archdruid)
I have a question
Let's say that a enginnered plague for elves is in play.
The opponents plays a elvish archdruid that is 1/1 but all other elves get +1/+1.
So if he plays a llanowar elf, does it die or stays in play? does this has to do with layers that you mentioned? (they are both CDA? and they both apply simoultaneously? i mean -1 from Engineered Plage and the +1 from the archdruid)
Thanks for your time,
John
Both of those static abilities are applying constantly, and at the same time. Your Llanowar Elf will therefore be a 1/1 from the moment it hits the battlefield.
How the heck would Fireball work if you didn't choose targets before paying costs?
First you announce the spell and put in on the stack. Then you choose a value for X. Then you pick targets. Then you figure out what the total cost is, activate mana abilities to pay that cast, and finally pay the cost.
Q: We're in extra turns in a single elimination match, but both of us control Platinum Angels. At the end of the five turns, my life total is higher. Who wins the game?
A: You do! I know Platinum Angel says "You can't lose the game", but that only applies to game rules. The sudden death rule that says the player with the higher life total wins at the end of five turns in a single elimination match is a tournament rule, so it overrules Platinum Angel and the round can end.
From the MTR:
In single-elimination rounds, matches may not end in a draw. If all players have equal game wins, the player with the highest life total wins the current game. In the event all players have equal life totals (or are between games and the game wins are tied), the game/match continues with an additional state-based action: if a player does not have the highest life total, he or she loses the game.
If I'm understanding this correctly, if the players' life totals are tied to begin with, then one of the players winning is indeed a tournament rule. However, in the event that the players are tied, the additional state based action that is added is a GAME rule, not a tournament rule. So if the player's life totals are tied at one point, then become untied later, the other player still can't lose.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Don't click here!
(\__/)
(='.'=)This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(")signature to help him gain world domination!
If I'm understanding this correctly, if the players' life totals are tied to begin with, then one of the players winning is indeed a tournament rule. However, in the event that the players are tied, the additional state based action that is added is a GAME rule, not a tournament rule. So if the player's life totals are tied at one point, then become untied later, the other player still can't lose.
You quoted the Tournament Rules, so logically that must be a tournament rule. Card text overrides the Comprehensive Rules, Tournament Rules override that, and Judges override them.
What happens if the life totals can't change? Say, both players have only Platinum Angel & Platinum Emperion OTB, the same life total, and no deck or hand? Unless someone blocks, that gamestate will never change.
The only solution I can think of is to draw the game, and play a new one until the first life change. Is that correct?
You quoted the Tournament Rules, so logically that must be a tournament rule. Card text overrides the Comprehensive Rules, Tournament Rules override that, and Judges override them.
Yes, however in this case, the tournament rule creates a state-based action, which must be a game rule. The tournament rules don't tell us how to deal with state-based actions, the game rules do.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Don't click here!
(\__/)
(='.'=)This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(")signature to help him gain world domination!
Yes, however in this case, the tournament rule creates a state-based action, which must be a game rule. The tournament rules don't tell us how to deal with state-based actions, the game rules do.
The MTR might not tell us how to handle (or even what is) a SBA, but that isn't what's important. The important thing is that the new SBA is imposed by the MTR, not the Comp. Rules, so the afore mentioned interaction of MTR > Cards> Comp. Rules holds and the player with the lowest life total still loses.
I think your problem is that you believe that only the Comp. Rules can impose gameplay rules on players, but that is untrue, there are corner cases where other documents may impose such rules on players.
What happens if the life totals can't change? Say, both players have only Platinum Angel & Platinum Emperion OTB, the same life total, and no deck or hand? Unless someone blocks, that gamestate will never change.
The only solution I can think of is to draw the game, and play a new one until the first life change. Is that correct?
1) What does happen in this situation, where the 5 turns are up, and no deck and no relevant cards in hand?
2) Also, what happens here if the game hasn't gone to time, and this situation comes up in a game 1... both players sitting there with 20 minutes left on the clock, and no way to resolve the game? Can the players agree to draw the game? Do the players HAVE to draw the game (for example, if the answer to question #1 is "go to a new game, first damage wins", and player A feels confident in his deck's ability to get first damage in, can he refuse to draw the game even though its gridlocked?
I'm actually very curious because I had built a deck that used Asceticism to protect the Platinum duo, and I always wondered if that deck went to a mirror match, what would happen if neither player could destroy the Angel and Emperion?
1) What does happen in this situation, where the 5 turns are up, and no deck and no relevant cards in hand?
2) Also, what happens here if the game hasn't gone to time, and this situation comes up in a game 1... both players sitting there with 20 minutes left on the clock, and no way to resolve the game? Can the players agree to draw the game? Do the players HAVE to draw the game (for example, if the answer to question #1 is "go to a new game, first damage wins", and player A feels confident in his deck's ability to get first damage in, can he refuse to draw the game even though its gridlocked?
I'm actually very curious because I had built a deck that used Asceticism to protect the Platinum duo, and I always wondered if that deck went to a mirror match, what would happen if neither player could destroy the Angel and Emperion?
If time is up and the extra turns are up, in single elimination, and neither player has a way to change the life totals, the match still has to come to a result somehow. One player can concede, or perhaps they can call that game a draw and move to another game (where, hopefully, someone gains or loses life before both players get the combo out again), etc.
This doesn't mean the players have to take any specific option, just that they have to do something to actively advance the match toward a result. If they don't, a judge should step in and direct them to do so (if he hasn't already -- usually as the round is winding down judges will be hunting up the matches that aren't done yet to see what's going on), and would be perfectly justified in issuing penalties if the players keep dragging things on unreasonably.
2) Also, what happens here if the game hasn't gone to time, and this situation comes up in a game 1... both players sitting there with 20 minutes left on the clock, and no way to resolve the game? Can the players agree to draw the game? Do the players HAVE to draw the game (for example, if the answer to question #1 is "go to a new game, first damage wins", and player A feels confident in his deck's ability to get first damage in, can he refuse to draw the game even though its gridlocked?
If the situation is as in #1 (no cards in their decks, no relevant cards in their hands) then a judge would likely step in and inform them of their options (advance the game state, concede, or draw the game). None of those options would be "keep playing until time", if a player refuses to pick one then they had better start coming up with a very good excuse or risk a stalling infraction (meaning they could be DQ'd for it).
As a side question, I remember that about a year ago it was stated that Platinum Angel could override the MTR, too...is my memory serving me wrong?
Cards can override the Comprehensive Rules, and in fact the Comprehensive Rules say this (CR 101.1). But the Magic Tournament Rules (and the Infraction Procedure Guide and the guide for Judging at Regular REL) are different beasts, and Platinum Angel doesn't win out against them. If the Tournament Rules say you lose, you lose. Or if a judge issues you a Game Loss penalty, you lose, and Platinum Angel can't do anything about it (similarly, your opponent can get a Game Loss penalty even if you've got an Abyssal Persecutor out).
Is that judge a jerk, or is Cranial Insertion just drunk on cheer? Is the rule really that you choose targets before paying costs??
And Extended now, stupid addicting game. And legacy. I guess vintage too.
DCI L2 Judge
GP:Madrid 2010 45th
GP:Amsterdam 2011 74th
GP:London 2013 67th
Bazaar of Moxen 2013 32nd
That judge isnt a jerk, just following rules. A judge cannot tell the player that the replica can target itself if the player asks if they can activate an ability without a target. Anything beyond saying "No, you must have a target to use an ability" is gameplay advise, and against the rules.
Judges can't help you play the game. They can answer rules questions, but they can't tell you what the optimal play is. In this case, the answer to the question "Can I sac the Replica without a legal target for it's ability?" is no.
However, if the player asked "Can I target the Replica with its own ability?", the judge would respond with an affirmative.
So if my opponent Briberys a creature out of my deck, and subsequently dies, the creature is exiled, and not put back under my control?
200: 07/17/06 @21:03 PST
500: 05/05/07 @11:48 PST
666: 08/27/07 @11:36 PST
777: 01/28/08 @20:22 PST
800: 04/07/08 @19:18 PST
888: 08/08/08 @16:12 PST
900: 08/12/08 @16:57 PST
1000:12/22/08 @ 18:01 PST
MTGS Legacy Tournament #5 Semi-finalist.
MTGS Legacy Tournament #6 Top 8.
The creature was never "under your control" in the first place - it went directly from your library to under your opponent's control on the battlefield. It will be exiled.
Avatar by Numotflame96 of Maelstrom Graphics
Sig banner thanks to DarkNightCavalier of Heroes of the Plane Studios!
Let's say that a enginnered plague for elves is in play.
The opponents plays a elvish archdruid that is 1/1 but all other elves get +1/+1.
So if he plays a llanowar elf, does it die or stays in play? does this has to do with layers that you mentioned? (they are both CDA? and they both apply simoultaneously? i mean -1 from Engineered Plage and the +1 from the archdruid)
Thanks for your time,
John
Both of those static abilities are applying constantly, and at the same time. Your Llanowar Elf will therefore be a 1/1 from the moment it hits the battlefield.
First you announce the spell and put in on the stack. Then you choose a value for X. Then you pick targets. Then you figure out what the total cost is, activate mana abilities to pay that cast, and finally pay the cost.
From the MTR:
If I'm understanding this correctly, if the players' life totals are tied to begin with, then one of the players winning is indeed a tournament rule. However, in the event that the players are tied, the additional state based action that is added is a GAME rule, not a tournament rule. So if the player's life totals are tied at one point, then become untied later, the other player still can't lose.
(\__/)
(='.'=)This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(")signature to help him gain world domination!
Do you know what Mirror Gallery does?
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
You quoted the Tournament Rules, so logically that must be a tournament rule. Card text overrides the Comprehensive Rules, Tournament Rules override that, and Judges override them.
The only solution I can think of is to draw the game, and play a new one until the first life change. Is that correct?
Yes, however in this case, the tournament rule creates a state-based action, which must be a game rule. The tournament rules don't tell us how to deal with state-based actions, the game rules do.
(\__/)
(='.'=)This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(")signature to help him gain world domination!
The MTR might not tell us how to handle (or even what is) a SBA, but that isn't what's important. The important thing is that the new SBA is imposed by the MTR, not the Comp. Rules, so the afore mentioned interaction of MTR > Cards> Comp. Rules holds and the player with the lowest life total still loses.
I think your problem is that you believe that only the Comp. Rules can impose gameplay rules on players, but that is untrue, there are corner cases where other documents may impose such rules on players.
1) What does happen in this situation, where the 5 turns are up, and no deck and no relevant cards in hand?
2) Also, what happens here if the game hasn't gone to time, and this situation comes up in a game 1... both players sitting there with 20 minutes left on the clock, and no way to resolve the game? Can the players agree to draw the game? Do the players HAVE to draw the game (for example, if the answer to question #1 is "go to a new game, first damage wins", and player A feels confident in his deck's ability to get first damage in, can he refuse to draw the game even though its gridlocked?
I'm actually very curious because I had built a deck that used Asceticism to protect the Platinum duo, and I always wondered if that deck went to a mirror match, what would happen if neither player could destroy the Angel and Emperion?
If time is up and the extra turns are up, in single elimination, and neither player has a way to change the life totals, the match still has to come to a result somehow. One player can concede, or perhaps they can call that game a draw and move to another game (where, hopefully, someone gains or loses life before both players get the combo out again), etc.
This doesn't mean the players have to take any specific option, just that they have to do something to actively advance the match toward a result. If they don't, a judge should step in and direct them to do so (if he hasn't already -- usually as the round is winding down judges will be hunting up the matches that aren't done yet to see what's going on), and would be perfectly justified in issuing penalties if the players keep dragging things on unreasonably.
----
Lightning Bolts don't kill creatures. State-based actions kill creatures.
If the situation is as in #1 (no cards in their decks, no relevant cards in their hands) then a judge would likely step in and inform them of their options (advance the game state, concede, or draw the game). None of those options would be "keep playing until time", if a player refuses to pick one then they had better start coming up with a very good excuse or risk a stalling infraction (meaning they could be DQ'd for it).
Cards can override the Comprehensive Rules, and in fact the Comprehensive Rules say this (CR 101.1). But the Magic Tournament Rules (and the Infraction Procedure Guide and the guide for Judging at Regular REL) are different beasts, and Platinum Angel doesn't win out against them. If the Tournament Rules say you lose, you lose. Or if a judge issues you a Game Loss penalty, you lose, and Platinum Angel can't do anything about it (similarly, your opponent can get a Game Loss penalty even if you've got an Abyssal Persecutor out).
----
Lightning Bolts don't kill creatures. State-based actions kill creatures.