True, but he's making a concrete statement that they are not in violation of that law. How can he possibly know that?
Regardless, look, the Staff and I have already resolved this. They're doing their job. I'm going to research US laws (as I'm in the US) to make sure they're not doing anything to break OUR laws, but seriously, I don't believe they meant any harm. I understand their reasons for needing to investigate me a bit. I'm still put off that they couldn't just ASK me, but yeah, people lie, so I see that, too.
I really don't see any good coming out of this thread anymore and repeat my request that it be closed. As I'm the only one listed as having been impacted by this, I think that should amount to something.
My apologies, Manders, I should have thought of your personal feelings in the matter more carefully before responding.
You guys should understand one thing: For starters you are not the internet police, and you have no rights to ask for the disclosure of private information stored offsite (of MTGS). As Belgareth said, there are laws that disallow this in many countries, but you shouldn't even need to reach this sort of debate once you arrive at the juncture where you realize that what you are doing is plainly immoral. Period. End of story. We wrap our stuff and go home.
No really, after lying to the userbase (see ExpiredRascals OP in the leak thread vs. the later clarification by Nai) we now have the snooping/spying to the userbase?
Bravo.
Zombie are you seriously this naive? How the hell do you think thesepeople were found and banned?
As both MikeyG, Sene, Galspannic and several other mods both current and former can attest this sort of information request has been going on for years in order to protect this community. The only difference in this case is that the person they were after information on is not a ripper but a former mod who they believed might be involved in the leak of privileged information.
@ Market street mods: Guys there might still be a note dating back to when iRebel was in charge. Back then I made a request that you guys publish the due diligence you made when setting up the various BTR procedures.
I again make that request as IIRC there is a provision for requests made for certain types investigations atleast in US law.
Belgarath: The site is not breaching the 1988 Data protection act as that boils down to the date being relevant, accurate and well stored. About the only thing they may fall over on is we have the ability to request all our personal information and I don't believe they have a process set up for that.
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- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
That goes without saying, people are expected to share information if felonies are commited or otherwise innocent people are at harm's risk.
My pondering is more general. For people who have committed no felonies (like ripping people in trades or plotting malicious internet attacks), is there any reasonable expectation that the info they wish to maintain private (like, say other sites registration emails) should not be expected to asked for to third parties by this site's staff?
Is that a reasonable expectation?
If you find that these leaks over a restricted subforum of a magic cards website are a felony or a crime, then you need to contact the proper authorities and let them do their own investigation.
Again, the staff of MTGS is not the Internet Police. You have no moral rights to take matters into your hands and go into an internet vigilantism operation.
And then you wonder why people are angry at you guys and accuse you of being corrupt. You have the nerve (see I can use italics too) of asking for third people to share confidential information of users you suspect of being related to the leaks, and when confronted to this immoral behavior you guys even come with BS like "yes but market street rippers". Whats the next tangent? Invoking Internet sexual predators as an excuse to spy people?
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Why Ban Affinity? Who doesn't like vomiting their hand into Play Turn 2?
Again, the staff of MTGS is not the Internet Police. You have no moral rights to take matters into your hands and go into an internet vigilantism operation.
The leakers are not the internet police. They have no moral right to take matters into their own hands and go internet vigilantism operation.
And then you wonder why people are angry at you guys and accuse you of being corrupt.
And you wonder why the staff feels the need to search out the leakers using any means necessary
You have the nerve (see I can use italics too) of asking for third people to share confidential information of users you suspect of being related to the leaks,
You have the nerve (I dislike unnecessary formatting) of telling the staff that they should do nothing to stop the flow of confidential information related to the leaks.
and when confronted to this immoral behavior you guys even come with BS like "yes but market street rippers".
And when confronted with precedent for their actions, you denounce them with the BS that "you need to contact the proper authorities and let them do their own investigation."
Whats the next tangent? Invoking Internet sexual predators as an excuse to spy people?
What's the next tangent? Are you going to skew the next thing to an absurd degree as well?
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
I'd disagree (obviously?) and I guess fleshing out my argument might be necessary, although it fit well with the way Zach phrased his.
Why is it that you believe that those that leak should be able to do what they are doing, and in doing so harm the site, with no reasonable expectation of recourse from the site? And further, why do you feel that those people should be able to take the high ground when they too are publicizing (which is more than the staff would/do do) sensitive information without corroboration?
This of course leads to the problem of the staff sounding hypocritical ("you leakers are detestable people") and proceeding to do some very similar things. However, the staff only did this after the leaks occurred (reactively, not proactively), and they obviously had some suspicion, if not evidence (they only seem to have attempted to investigate one person off site), about who the leakers are.
Not to mention that Zack is totally inflating what the staff did to a disproportionate degree. There was no 'spying'. People were not bugged, monitored, etc. From the OP, the only thing that seems to have been done was a request for usernames posting from certain IP addresses, the same thing as is done for market street actions (afaik).
There is no evidence of mods looking at PMs, or of trying to discover who the leakers are by hacking accounts (fahey has said that in his opinion, one of the people leaking to him tried to influence his opinions based on what information they leaked regarding the hacking of his account), since things have shown that that suggestion was quickly shot down by the less angry mods.
The crux of the issue is, what makes it morally right for the leakers to harm the site yet not morally right for the site to protect itsself? (and I hope you both realize this has nothing to do with gutter members, its an issue of 2 of the involved groups, the leakers and the staff, not the leakers/gutter/staff)
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
Erm the leakers are on the staff .... so really it's a staff contained issue.
You make it sound like leakers vs staff , but the leakers are on the staff so really it is a rift group within the staff.
"Those staff who are leaking information" vs "those staff who aren't leaking information" is kinda wordy, though.
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Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Erm the leakers are on the staff .... so really it's a staff contained issue.
You make it sound like leakers vs staff , but the leakers are on the staff so really it is a rift group within the staff.
Well yes, but it isn't as though the staff and the leakers can be called a single group. I think its obvious at this point that the staff will do everything it can to remove the leakers. They aren't two warring factions, instead its a large group with rogue members that the large group wishes to remove.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
Hypothetical question: if this was Market Street-related, would you still object to it?
Not at all, because if you guys didn't do everything in your power to protect people and their merchandise, it could open you up to lawsuits. I'm a 32 year old woman who can do only basic computer-based things. I am no threat to the site.
Zombie are you seriously this naive? How the hell do you think thesepeople were found and banned?
All rippers. Criminals. Of which I am not.
As both MikeyG, Sene, Galspannic and several other mods both current and former can attest this sort of information request has been going on for years in order to protect this community. The only difference in this case is that the person they were after information on is not a ripper but a former mod who they believed might be involved in the leak of privileged information.
Actually, I've been told that's not the case. Well, partially, but they were also concerned r_0 and I were the same person.
Also, if there were nothing to be leaked, there'd be no problem.
More accurate though, as the lack of clarification makes it look like some radical freedom fighter group of non staff hacking the staff resources, when reality is it's 2 sides of staff .
1 that believes they are doing the right thing with regard to the community and another that thinks they are not and chooses to try to make change through using community members as vocal complainers via leaked info.
True, but I'd hope that those that are reading are intelligent enough to realize that without semantic and lawyerish writing. It makes it much more difficult to convey anything important when it needs to be clarified by me saying "Those Members of the moderation team who are leaking information to non moderation team member henceforth referred to as 'leakers' are..."
The reality is that neither side is acting perfectly, but the problem is a staff internal one caused by a lack of unity and respect.
This is true, although I do think that the external (or more appropriately staff/[other group]) conflicts are to blame as well. They've been putting pressure on staff to do things in abnormal ways, been contributing to drama, etc. That isn't necessary the fault of those other groups (and I don't just mean gutter, I'm also referring to basically anyone that posts in CI), but it is a contributing factor.
The only way to solve that is either removing staff 1 by 1 till they remove enough that they are unified again, or preferably working through any issues so whoever is leaking info no longer feels the need.
I'd agree, except that I'm not sure that I'd want anyone on staff who was willing to leak information to the 'public' no matter what the moral reasons for their actions.
Do you think that there are other people who are/were suspected but not actually rippers who were investigated but found innocent? Wouldn't they have also had personal information gathered?
However, even if manders did leak info (she didn't, for those that may wish to say I'm being somehow accusatory) , she didn't do anything actually illegal, while the rippers did.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
The only way to solve that is either removing staff 1 by 1 till they remove enough that they are unified again, or preferably working through any issues so whoever is leaking info no longer feels the need.
The problem is that whoever the anonymous leakers may be, the fact of it is that as long as they're anonymous it's pretty much impossible to tell what their goals or concerns are, or even whether they have them.
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Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
I can attest that, when you are staff and you are unhappy with the decisions being made, it is extremely hard and time-consuming (and more often than not a lesson in futility) to try to convince anyone of your point of view, no matter how much solid logic you throw at them.
b) that they are necessarily in the wrong and not just well intentioned vigilantes.
As the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The person/people leaking information may be heroes in their own minds, but the damage they've done to the community and to the staff well outweighs any amount of good they've done.
That's like saying "history is written by the winners".
I prefer a more unbiased neutral outlook, after all I have seen/heard/experienced multiple errors by a lot of staff so there is no good/bad sides in this only a difference in methods and perception.
There are no winners in this , no heroes and no villians.
The non-leaking staff did just as much harm whether by intention or not.
However this attitude of "us vs them" is exactly why there is a rift and such guerilla tactics.
Belgareth, I second the quote in your sig. You should teach a class.
The problem is that whoever the anonymous leakers may be, the fact of it is that as long as they're anonymous it's pretty much impossible to tell what their goals or concerns are, or even whether they have them.
Not true. The information that is leaked would be an indication of desired goals.
I feel like this is being blown way out of proportion. As I was the one asked for the info I figure I would chime and try to calm things down since I think this is being blown way out of proportion (as I said in my last sentence).
Hi, I am Guardman, the owner/admin of MTGDarkness.com a mafia site (formerly a magic site) and the one who was asked for MH's info. A couple of days ago I was asked by a friend of mine who is a mod here currently (and someone I worked with while MTGD was a magic site) if I would be willing to give him the email address and IP address that MH used when she signed up for Darkness. I said I didn't feel comfortable doing that as I felt that the info she provided to sign-up should be held in confidence. He said alright that is fine. I then thought about it and asked him if he would mind telling me what they needed the info for. He said official Sally related business and we left it at that. With all that was going on here recently I thought that MH should know that the mods at Sally were looking for her registration email and IP address. I PMed her and told her what I was asked for and that I didn't give him any of her info as I didn't feel comfortable doing so and thought her private info should remain private.
That's the entire chain of events. The asking was not malicious in nature. And in fact was very cordial. The only reason I told MH is because I didn't feel comfortable not telling her that I was asked for her info and not given a reason. And from the sounds of it MH has taken care of the reasons privately with the staff. So all is well that ends well.
Let's talk more about this. Give some actual reasoning to your belief.
What the hell? Madding's suspended? Eh...
So, anyway, I was going to say I could teach or learn you but I'd have to charge or I'd normally do so. Now, if I'm going to even dignify this, there's very little purpose.
"Zombie" Zach and Glimypost: No, in fact and by virtue. Though, yeah, Internet vigilantism is some serious matter.
Truth is I don't have any idea about the staff, or select staff members, are doing with the information of users, so it's really hypothetical. If you're concerned enough, go blow your money on a barrister for their opinion.
Quote from Guardman »
Hi, I am Guardman, the owner/admin of MTGDarkness.com a mafia site (formerly a magic site) and the one who was asked for MH's info. A couple of days ago I was asked by a friend of mine who is a mod here currently (and someone I worked with while MTGD was a magic site) if I would be willing to give him the email address and IP address that MH used when she signed up for Darkness. I said I didn't feel comfortable doing that as I felt that the info she provided to sign-up should be held in confidence. He said alright that is fine. I then thought about it and asked him if he would mind telling me what they needed the info for. He said official Sally related business and we left it at that. With all that was going on here recently I thought that MH should know that the mods at Sally were looking for her registration email and IP address. I PMed her and told her what I was asked for and that I didn't give him any of her info as I didn't feel comfortable doing so and thought her private info should remain private.
Color me confused. If you could specify what part of my/his posts you refer to, that'd help.
While I find myself in agreement with things that you have said, I really wouldn't have bothered with "Zombie" Zach's post or arguing - but not actually arguing and getting pissed off or anything - against it.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
Well, I guess since this seems to be something that shouldn't have been brought up, and was only a way to get more people to become "involved" with another community, I supose I should post the URL to the "new MtG" community that pink et al. have set up, since they want to play it as "private information only".
There. Since we want to be *******s at this point, I figure I can even the playing field.
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Well, I guess since this seems to be something that shouldn't have been brought up, and was only a way to get more people to become "involved" with another community, I supose I should post the URL to the "new MtG" community that pink et al. have set up, since they want to play it as "private information only".
Well, I guess since this seems to be something that shouldn't have been brought up, and was only a way to get more people to become "involved" with another community, I supose I should post the URL to the "new MtG" community that pink et al. have set up, since they want to play it as "private information only".
Edit 2 (to the post below):
While I find myself in agreement with things that you have said, I really wouldn't have bothered with "Zombie" Zach's post or arguing - but not actually arguing and getting pissed off or anything - against it.
Would you believe I only realized I was mirroring his posted part way into the third quote. It wasn't as exact, but it was really close. I fixed to further point out the hypocrisy in his method of argument, but no matter, he's been banned.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
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My apologies, Manders, I should have thought of your personal feelings in the matter more carefully before responding.
Zombie are you seriously this naive? How the hell do you think these people were found and banned?
As both MikeyG, Sene, Galspannic and several other mods both current and former can attest this sort of information request has been going on for years in order to protect this community. The only difference in this case is that the person they were after information on is not a ripper but a former mod who they believed might be involved in the leak of privileged information.
@ Market street mods: Guys there might still be a note dating back to when iRebel was in charge. Back then I made a request that you guys publish the due diligence you made when setting up the various BTR procedures.
I again make that request as IIRC there is a provision for requests made for certain types investigations atleast in US law.
Belgarath: The site is not breaching the 1988 Data protection act as that boils down to the date being relevant, accurate and well stored. About the only thing they may fall over on is we have the ability to request all our personal information and I don't believe they have a process set up for that.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
As I pointed out before:
If you find that these leaks over a restricted subforum of a magic cards website are a felony or a crime, then you need to contact the proper authorities and let them do their own investigation.
Again, the staff of MTGS is not the Internet Police. You have no moral rights to take matters into your hands and go into an internet vigilantism operation.
And then you wonder why people are angry at you guys and accuse you of being corrupt. You have the nerve (see I can use italics too) of asking for third people to share confidential information of users you suspect of being related to the leaks, and when confronted to this immoral behavior you guys even come with BS like "yes but market street rippers". Whats the next tangent? Invoking Internet sexual predators as an excuse to spy people?
The leakers are not the internet police. They have no moral right to take matters into their own hands and go internet vigilantism operation.
And you wonder why the staff feels the need to search out the leakers using any means necessary
You have the nerve (I dislike unnecessary formatting) of telling the staff that they should do nothing to stop the flow of confidential information related to the leaks.
And when confronted with precedent for their actions, you denounce them with the BS that "you need to contact the proper authorities and let them do their own investigation."
What's the next tangent? Are you going to skew the next thing to an absurd degree as well?
I'd disagree (obviously?) and I guess fleshing out my argument might be necessary, although it fit well with the way Zach phrased his.
Why is it that you believe that those that leak should be able to do what they are doing, and in doing so harm the site, with no reasonable expectation of recourse from the site? And further, why do you feel that those people should be able to take the high ground when they too are publicizing (which is more than the staff would/do do) sensitive information without corroboration?
This of course leads to the problem of the staff sounding hypocritical ("you leakers are detestable people") and proceeding to do some very similar things. However, the staff only did this after the leaks occurred (reactively, not proactively), and they obviously had some suspicion, if not evidence (they only seem to have attempted to investigate one person off site), about who the leakers are.
Not to mention that Zack is totally inflating what the staff did to a disproportionate degree. There was no 'spying'. People were not bugged, monitored, etc. From the OP, the only thing that seems to have been done was a request for usernames posting from certain IP addresses, the same thing as is done for market street actions (afaik).
There is no evidence of mods looking at PMs, or of trying to discover who the leakers are by hacking accounts (fahey has said that in his opinion, one of the people leaking to him tried to influence his opinions based on what information they leaked regarding the hacking of his account), since things have shown that that suggestion was quickly shot down by the less angry mods.
The crux of the issue is, what makes it morally right for the leakers to harm the site yet not morally right for the site to protect itsself? (and I hope you both realize this has nothing to do with gutter members, its an issue of 2 of the involved groups, the leakers and the staff, not the leakers/gutter/staff)
"Those staff who are leaking information" vs "those staff who aren't leaking information" is kinda wordy, though.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Well yes, but it isn't as though the staff and the leakers can be called a single group. I think its obvious at this point that the staff will do everything it can to remove the leakers. They aren't two warring factions, instead its a large group with rogue members that the large group wishes to remove.
Not at all, because if you guys didn't do everything in your power to protect people and their merchandise, it could open you up to lawsuits. I'm a 32 year old woman who can do only basic computer-based things. I am no threat to the site.
This.
My personal feelings are not in this at all, dear. I'd just rather this not turn into a huge drama bomb because it is not worth all that.
Besides, I've gotten a lot of answers and have more to come.
All rippers. Criminals. Of which I am not.
Actually, I've been told that's not the case. Well, partially, but they were also concerned r_0 and I were the same person.
Also, if there were nothing to be leaked, there'd be no problem.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
True, but I'd hope that those that are reading are intelligent enough to realize that without semantic and lawyerish writing. It makes it much more difficult to convey anything important when it needs to be clarified by me saying "Those Members of the moderation team who are leaking information to non moderation team member henceforth referred to as 'leakers' are..."
This is true, although I do think that the external (or more appropriately staff/[other group]) conflicts are to blame as well. They've been putting pressure on staff to do things in abnormal ways, been contributing to drama, etc. That isn't necessary the fault of those other groups (and I don't just mean gutter, I'm also referring to basically anyone that posts in CI), but it is a contributing factor.
I'd agree, except that I'm not sure that I'd want anyone on staff who was willing to leak information to the 'public' no matter what the moral reasons for their actions.
EDIT:
Do you think that there are other people who are/were suspected but not actually rippers who were investigated but found innocent? Wouldn't they have also had personal information gathered?
However, even if manders did leak info (she didn't, for those that may wish to say I'm being somehow accusatory) , she didn't do anything actually illegal, while the rippers did.
The problem is that whoever the anonymous leakers may be, the fact of it is that as long as they're anonymous it's pretty much impossible to tell what their goals or concerns are, or even whether they have them.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
As the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The person/people leaking information may be heroes in their own minds, but the damage they've done to the community and to the staff well outweighs any amount of good they've done.
Belgareth, I second the quote in your sig. You should teach a class.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
Not true. The information that is leaked would be an indication of desired goals.
[Mafia Stats] Mafia MVP: 1/3 Basic #29,Co-[CCMV]
Hi, I am Guardman, the owner/admin of MTGDarkness.com a mafia site (formerly a magic site) and the one who was asked for MH's info. A couple of days ago I was asked by a friend of mine who is a mod here currently (and someone I worked with while MTGD was a magic site) if I would be willing to give him the email address and IP address that MH used when she signed up for Darkness. I said I didn't feel comfortable doing that as I felt that the info she provided to sign-up should be held in confidence. He said alright that is fine. I then thought about it and asked him if he would mind telling me what they needed the info for. He said official Sally related business and we left it at that. With all that was going on here recently I thought that MH should know that the mods at Sally were looking for her registration email and IP address. I PMed her and told her what I was asked for and that I didn't give him any of her info as I didn't feel comfortable doing so and thought her private info should remain private.
That's the entire chain of events. The asking was not malicious in nature. And in fact was very cordial. The only reason I told MH is because I didn't feel comfortable not telling her that I was asked for her info and not given a reason. And from the sounds of it MH has taken care of the reasons privately with the staff. So all is well that ends well.
Unless you had not been such a capital guy, and given out the information, then things may not have ended well.
It's still sort of a scary situation is all I'm saying.
What the hell? Madding's suspended? Eh...
So, anyway, I was going to say I could teach or learn you but I'd have to charge or I'd normally do so. Now, if I'm going to even dignify this, there's very little purpose.
"Zombie" Zach and Glimypost: No, in fact and by virtue. Though, yeah, Internet vigilantism is some serious matter.
Truth is I don't have any idea about the staff, or select staff members, are doing with the information of users, so it's really hypothetical. If you're concerned enough, go blow your money on a barrister for their opinion.
Whoa, massively suspect and shady.
Edit: But well done... I think...
Edit 2 (to the post below):
While I find myself in agreement with things that you have said, I really wouldn't have bothered with "Zombie" Zach's post or arguing - but not actually arguing and getting pissed off or anything - against it.
Color me confused. If you could specify what part of my/his posts you refer to, that'd help.
http://community.ist.utl.pt/
There. Since we want to be *******s at this point, I figure I can even the playing field.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
Thank you
Its not a secret and anyone is allowed in.
LOL
Would you believe I only realized I was mirroring his posted part way into the third quote. It wasn't as exact, but it was really close. I fixed to further point out the hypocrisy in his method of argument, but no matter, he's been banned.