Considering the context of the rest of the post, it was pretty obvious I was referring to the gutter and so that was just used as an opportunity to take an unnecessary pot shot at the staff. And frankly, the concept of the mod lounge is necessary and has been around since MTGNews. Guess how much drama there was back then over information that users need not be privy to? Zero, because they didn't empower instigators through acknowledging and validating them.
Regardless of how you, or I, might feel about the current drift of the Community Issues subforum, neither of us can deny that positive change for the site has come of it, however. This is why almost every website has one, in one form or another, just as they almost all have off-topic discussion boards (several popular boards are essentially little more than these two forums).
An instigator is trying to instigate something, and this is not always a bad thing. The Staff Inbox, for instance, which I like quite a bit, would not have been started, nor probably thought up, by a person on staff, as it seems likely they wouldn't have realized the need for such a thing. It was also created in the midst of dense conflict, which, sad as it is, breeds faster change.
@Yomako: The issue which many users (again, not necessarily I) feel is up for discussion is that the ML is not only used for private discussion, it is its own subculture at this point, much in the same way that the Gutter used to be; that the best and most vibrant discussion takes place there between the best and most vibrant posters. To some, it seems wrong that regular posters on the main boards don't get to share in this input, and ML discussion should be kept to, as you say, privileged topics.
Considering the context of the rest of the post, it was pretty obvious I was referring to the gutter and so that was just used as an opportunity to take an unnecessary pot shot at the staff. And frankly, the concept of the mod lounge is necessary and has been around since MTGNews. Guess how much drama there was back then over information that users need not be privy to? Zero, because they didn't empower instigators through acknowledging and validating them.
Lol, nice conspiracy theory there dude.
I think the MSL, and other subforum-specific lounges are absolutely necessary to the functioning of those areas. I do not agree that the centralized mod lounge is. The big one just breeds a victim complex (as can be seen in several posts by mods in the leak thread) and causes delays for consensus building when, many times, the right answer is obvious from the beginning. Empower good mods and let them do their jobs. You don't need some control group breathing down their necks or anything.
As an example, when I was a moderator for MS, I had an apologetic other mod from MS (as in, he *knew* I was doing a good job, but sigh, it had come up with another group) talk to me about my 'error rate' in issuing warnings/infractions. Well, I provided the data (that should have been obvious to the people complaining about my work, had they bothered to look - which, coincidentally included me being blamed instead for reading errors by one of the people in the group criticizing my work) and it was clear that I was doing a great job. But, because there was this other centralized lounge, other than the well oiled machine that is the MSL, people groupthinked their way into some mis-informed ideas and caused grief.
And, it's really not fair to pin all drama on the gutter anyway. Here are the people who have the top postcounts in the major drama threads over the last couple years around here (as determined by number of posts, in both cases):
logicX 7
brandon 6
harkius 6
belgareth 5
glimrypost 5
misclick 5
nai 5 (staff)
teia 4 (staff)
azrael 3
binary 3
faheyUSMC 3
galspanic 3 (staff)
kaitscralt 3 (gutter member)
kijin 3 (gutter member - now banned)
kpaca 3 (gutter member - now banned)
mystery45 3
NS 3 (gutter member - now banned)
rianalnn 3 (staff - at the time)
senori 3 (staff)
These people have a wide variety of opinions on the matters in the 12 threads I checked, includes a number of upper and lower staff members, gutter members, and non-gutter members. Neither gutter members nor staff members occupy the top several spots of people most active in the most drama threads. It's fair to say that propagation is not at all one group's doing. Not all of these people were intentionally feeding drama. But they are all people who post a lot in a lot of drama threads, for one reason or another. And the gutter posters are certainly not the main posters (thread propagators?). Neither are staff members.
In fact, merely on postcounts as I've outlined here, if you take away the 3 gutter-specific threads (which are basically due to staff self-proclaimed bad-handlings of closures), the gutter members show up in very few other drama threads, few enough that they wouldn't make the ~25% of the remaning 9 drama threads list.
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
Why is there a CI? It has been made abundantly clear that users complaining is the source of all of the problems, so why not just shutter CI and allow complaints to go through Staff Inbox and PMs. I'm entirely serious. Is there an issue that cannot be resolved via Inbox or PMs?
Why is there a CI? It has been made abundantly clear that users complaining is the source of all of the problems, so why not just shutter CI and allow complaints to go through Staff Inbox and PMs. I'm entirely serious. Is there an issue that cannot be resolved via Inbox or PMs?
Because without CI the drama wouldn't go away; it would just end up elsewhere in the forums. Plus, there are legitimate issues which need discussing.
Any issues where someone is not satisfied with the staff response. Which is nearly all of them.
We see a lot of complaints, talk about it with people through PM, and that's the end of the problem. To say that people are not satisfied with "nearly all of them" is not fair or accurate.
I do feel that a public forum for talking about things is good for the site though. I only wanted to say that a lot of things are still addressed privately.
We see a lot of complaints, talk about it with people through PM, and that's the end of the problem. To say that people are not satisfied with "nearly all of them" is not fair or accurate.
I'm talking about broader issues, of the kind which currently end up in CI. I'm not saying that everyone, or even the majority, isn't satisfied. But with a community as big as this one there generally are at least a few who aren't. And that's enough to cause a problem when there isn't a place like CI to discuss this stuff.
There are Mod Helpdesks, Staff Inbox and PMs. That's more than enough to resolve most issues. I don't see the need for CI.
You could also remove all the Magic-related forums except Magic General and have all discussion take place there. So strictly speaking those forums aren't needed either. It's just better for there to be a central place for this stuff than for it to happen elsewhere.
I'm talking about broader issues, of the kind which currently end up in CI. I'm not saying that everyone, or even the majority, isn't satisfied. But with a community as big as this one there generally are at least a few who aren't.
Yes. And all I was trying to point out is that scale and perspective are in fact important.
Why is there a CI? It has been made abundantly clear that users complaining is the source of all of the problems, so why not just shutter CI and allow complaints to go through Staff Inbox and PMs. I'm entirely serious. Is there an issue that cannot be resolved via Inbox or PMs?
If problems are not made public, then secrecy reigns. In cases like the WCT debacle over the past few months, you wouldn't have nay type of compromise; in fact, I will go on the record and state that there would be numerous "polls" conducted "in confidence" and low and behold, the complaining person would be either the only person with the issue, or in the "vocal minority".
If people are not allowed to discuss the problems in an open forum then there is no reason to even have a staff inbox. In fact, there's no reason to even have compromise.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
If problems are not made public, then secrecy reigns. In cases like the WCT debacle over the past few months, you wouldn't have nay type of compromise; in fact, I will go on the record and state that there would be numerous "polls" conducted "in confidence" and low and behold, the complaining person would be either the only person with the issue, or in the "vocal minority".
If people are not allowed to discuss the problems in an open forum then there is no reason to even have a staff inbox. In fact, there's no reason to even have compromise.
Almost all of the issues with WCT were resolved when a single person (Bel) talked to Mods. The threads were just a distraction before the actual work was done.
Almost all of the issues with WCT were resolved when a single person (Bel) talked to Mods. The threads were just a distraction before the actual work was done.
Bel wouldn't have talked to the mods to resolve these things had it not been for the fact people created threadnaughts. People may hate the drama, but in the end it forced a compromise in a situation where the WCT mods literally said, "We're not going to compromise, this is how we're doing it."
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
I can assure you, during the two times I was moderator, the lounge was used as a means of discussing topics sensetive to interfearence from non-staff.
Yes, I know. The problem is that that is not all it is used for. There is the GRRR, which is nothing more than a time vampire by design, and there are numerous threads involving little privileged content. While I don't necessarily agree that these threads don't allow for a certain amount of decompression, some feel that the mods should decompress on, you know, the main forums instead like the rest of us, where their expertise in their fields would allow a broader audience to view their insight and improve the site for the whole of the userbase, instead of just the privileged few.
Bel wouldn't have talked to the mods to resolve these things had it not been for the fact people created threadnaughts. People may hate the drama, but in the end it forced a compromise in a situation where the WCT mods literally said, "We're not going to compromise, this is how we're doing it."
Wouldn't you have just had that discussion on my or Teia's helpdesk instead?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Wouldn't you have just had that discussion on my or Teia's helpdesk instead?
We tried to. In fact, we were told to get it off your helpdesk by Meggido, and so the threads began. I'd also argue that Teia attempted to stifle the conversation early between Logic and herself, but that's another thread that I don't think we need.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
Guys lets not re-hash old solved problems.
Since I was the person involved I will state that actually I tried to deal with WCT via PM before the 3 megathreads as I have already mentioned I don't like huge public argument threads that usually devolve into flaming staff or insulting community.
However I was kind of brushed off and told that the situation was being watched and wouldn't get any worse, sadly it did and huge chaotic messy threads ensued.
Megs and senori were both very good about it when I was asked to discuss it in private but I do want to say megs really did have both sides interests at heart.
Again let's not play a blame game, the issue which did need resolving (WCT went to virtually no traffic at all) , got resolved. Case closed .
I was more trying to explain to CorpT why such a decision (close down the CI, use only the Staff Inbox for complaints/suggestions) wouldn't work. I wasn't trying to reopen closed wounds.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
We tried to. In fact, we were told to get it off your helpdesk by Meggido, and so the threads began. I'd also argue that Teia attempted to stifle the conversation early between Logic and herself, but that's another thread that I don't think we need.
I mean, keep in mind that was in a world where we had CI for such things.
But I don't really care enough to argue about it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
I was more trying to explain to CorpT why such a decision (close down the CI, use only the Staff Inbox for complaints/suggestions) wouldn't work. I wasn't trying to reopen closed wounds.
But the issue isn't that CI is needed because you (or Bel or whomever) got brushed off. The issue is that the mods shouldn't be brushing people off. And believe me, I get that because I've been brushed off several times now. My solution has been to find mods who don't do that and speak directly to them. It's slower, but better than getting brushed off repeatedly.
But the issue isn't that CI is needed because you (or Bel or whomever) got brushed off. The issue is that the mods shouldn't be brushing people off. And believe me, I get that because I've been brushed off several times now. My solution has been to find mods who don't do that and speak directly to them. It's slower, but better than getting brushed off repeatedly.
Well, consider the threads where someone's like "Can we get this feature" like the Thank This Post thread or the Holiday Card Exchange threads. These are legitimate, positive uses of the CI forum and why it is needed, at least.
Well, consider the threads where someone's like "Can we get this feature" like the Thank This Post thread or the Holiday Card Exchange threads. These are legitimate, positive uses of the CI forum and why it is needed, at least.
Those can't be solved via Staff Inbox, PM or Helpdesk threads?
While I don't necessarily agree that these threads don't allow for a certain amount of decompression, some feel that the mods should decompress on, you know, the main forums instead like the rest of us, where their expertise in their fields would allow a broader audience to view their insight and improve the site for the whole of the userbase, instead of just the privileged few.
The main problem with mods decompressing on the regular forum is that it doesn't give us the scope by which we need to fully decompress.*
I am the storyline and wiki mod. The storyline is the place I consider my domain and where I would spend most of my time, but there are, quite frankly, issues which I wish to decompress that do not fit within my demesne.
Sometimes, you need a place with people who share the experiences you need to vent about.
*Note: I am in total support of mods spending time in their own sections, don't get me wrong.
Self Moderation. In all my time there, I haven't seen anything 'toxic'. Also there isn't any real 'us vs them' mentality there. They just want to do a little venting (and :grouphug:ing) every now and again, just to prevent stress.
Regardless of how you, or I, might feel about the current drift of the Community Issues subforum, neither of us can deny that positive change for the site has come of it, however. This is why almost every website has one, in one form or another, just as they almost all have off-topic discussion boards (several popular boards are essentially little more than these two forums).
An instigator is trying to instigate something, and this is not always a bad thing. The Staff Inbox, for instance, which I like quite a bit, would not have been started, nor probably thought up, by a person on staff, as it seems likely they wouldn't have realized the need for such a thing. It was also created in the midst of dense conflict, which, sad as it is, breeds faster change.
@Yomako: The issue which many users (again, not necessarily I) feel is up for discussion is that the ML is not only used for private discussion, it is its own subculture at this point, much in the same way that the Gutter used to be; that the best and most vibrant discussion takes place there between the best and most vibrant posters. To some, it seems wrong that regular posters on the main boards don't get to share in this input, and ML discussion should be kept to, as you say, privileged topics.
Equal footing, and all that.
Lol, nice conspiracy theory there dude.
I think the MSL, and other subforum-specific lounges are absolutely necessary to the functioning of those areas. I do not agree that the centralized mod lounge is. The big one just breeds a victim complex (as can be seen in several posts by mods in the leak thread) and causes delays for consensus building when, many times, the right answer is obvious from the beginning. Empower good mods and let them do their jobs. You don't need some control group breathing down their necks or anything.
As an example, when I was a moderator for MS, I had an apologetic other mod from MS (as in, he *knew* I was doing a good job, but sigh, it had come up with another group) talk to me about my 'error rate' in issuing warnings/infractions. Well, I provided the data (that should have been obvious to the people complaining about my work, had they bothered to look - which, coincidentally included me being blamed instead for reading errors by one of the people in the group criticizing my work) and it was clear that I was doing a great job. But, because there was this other centralized lounge, other than the well oiled machine that is the MSL, people groupthinked their way into some mis-informed ideas and caused grief.
And, it's really not fair to pin all drama on the gutter anyway. Here are the people who have the top postcounts in the major drama threads over the last couple years around here (as determined by number of posts, in both cases):
logicX 7
brandon 6
harkius 6
belgareth 5
glimrypost 5
misclick 5
nai 5 (staff)
teia 4 (staff)
azrael 3
binary 3
faheyUSMC 3
galspanic 3 (staff)
kaitscralt 3 (gutter member)
kijin 3 (gutter member - now banned)
kpaca 3 (gutter member - now banned)
mystery45 3
NS 3 (gutter member - now banned)
rianalnn 3 (staff - at the time)
senori 3 (staff)
These people have a wide variety of opinions on the matters in the 12 threads I checked, includes a number of upper and lower staff members, gutter members, and non-gutter members. Neither gutter members nor staff members occupy the top several spots of people most active in the most drama threads. It's fair to say that propagation is not at all one group's doing. Not all of these people were intentionally feeding drama. But they are all people who post a lot in a lot of drama threads, for one reason or another. And the gutter posters are certainly not the main posters (thread propagators?). Neither are staff members.
In fact, merely on postcounts as I've outlined here, if you take away the 3 gutter-specific threads (which are basically due to staff self-proclaimed bad-handlings of closures), the gutter members show up in very few other drama threads, few enough that they wouldn't make the ~25% of the remaning 9 drama threads list.
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
Why is there a CI? It has been made abundantly clear that users complaining is the source of all of the problems, so why not just shutter CI and allow complaints to go through Staff Inbox and PMs. I'm entirely serious. Is there an issue that cannot be resolved via Inbox or PMs?
Because without CI the drama wouldn't go away; it would just end up elsewhere in the forums. Plus, there are legitimate issues which need discussing.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Why would it have to go somewhere? What issues can't be resolved by Staff Inbox or PMs?
Any issues where someone is not satisfied with the staff response. Which is nearly all of them.
Plus, any where a wide range of opinions is useful, such as the recent WCT rules discussions.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
We see a lot of complaints, talk about it with people through PM, and that's the end of the problem. To say that people are not satisfied with "nearly all of them" is not fair or accurate.
I do feel that a public forum for talking about things is good for the site though. I only wanted to say that a lot of things are still addressed privately.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
There are Mod Helpdesks, Staff Inbox and PMs. That's more than enough to resolve most issues. I don't see the need for CI.
I'm talking about broader issues, of the kind which currently end up in CI. I'm not saying that everyone, or even the majority, isn't satisfied. But with a community as big as this one there generally are at least a few who aren't. And that's enough to cause a problem when there isn't a place like CI to discuss this stuff.
You could also remove all the Magic-related forums except Magic General and have all discussion take place there. So strictly speaking those forums aren't needed either. It's just better for there to be a central place for this stuff than for it to happen elsewhere.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Yes. And all I was trying to point out is that scale and perspective are in fact important.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
If problems are not made public, then secrecy reigns. In cases like the WCT debacle over the past few months, you wouldn't have nay type of compromise; in fact, I will go on the record and state that there would be numerous "polls" conducted "in confidence" and low and behold, the complaining person would be either the only person with the issue, or in the "vocal minority".
If people are not allowed to discuss the problems in an open forum then there is no reason to even have a staff inbox. In fact, there's no reason to even have compromise.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
Almost all of the issues with WCT were resolved when a single person (Bel) talked to Mods. The threads were just a distraction before the actual work was done.
Bel wouldn't have talked to the mods to resolve these things had it not been for the fact people created threadnaughts. People may hate the drama, but in the end it forced a compromise in a situation where the WCT mods literally said, "We're not going to compromise, this is how we're doing it."
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
Yes, I know. The problem is that that is not all it is used for. There is the GRRR, which is nothing more than a time vampire by design, and there are numerous threads involving little privileged content. While I don't necessarily agree that these threads don't allow for a certain amount of decompression, some feel that the mods should decompress on, you know, the main forums instead like the rest of us, where their expertise in their fields would allow a broader audience to view their insight and improve the site for the whole of the userbase, instead of just the privileged few.
Go Go Devil's Advocate!
Wouldn't you have just had that discussion on my or Teia's helpdesk instead?
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
We tried to. In fact, we were told to get it off your helpdesk by Meggido, and so the threads began. I'd also argue that Teia attempted to stifle the conversation early between Logic and herself, but that's another thread that I don't think we need.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
I was more trying to explain to CorpT why such a decision (close down the CI, use only the Staff Inbox for complaints/suggestions) wouldn't work. I wasn't trying to reopen closed wounds.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
I mean, keep in mind that was in a world where we had CI for such things.
But I don't really care enough to argue about it.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
But the issue isn't that CI is needed because you (or Bel or whomever) got brushed off. The issue is that the mods shouldn't be brushing people off. And believe me, I get that because I've been brushed off several times now. My solution has been to find mods who don't do that and speak directly to them. It's slower, but better than getting brushed off repeatedly.
Well, consider the threads where someone's like "Can we get this feature" like the Thank This Post thread or the Holiday Card Exchange threads. These are legitimate, positive uses of the CI forum and why it is needed, at least.
Those can't be solved via Staff Inbox, PM or Helpdesk threads?
The main problem with mods decompressing on the regular forum is that it doesn't give us the scope by which we need to fully decompress.*
I am the storyline and wiki mod. The storyline is the place I consider my domain and where I would spend most of my time, but there are, quite frankly, issues which I wish to decompress that do not fit within my demesne.
Sometimes, you need a place with people who share the experiences you need to vent about.
*Note: I am in total support of mods spending time in their own sections, don't get me wrong.
How do you make sure the venting doesn't turn toxic and result in further entrenching an "us vs them" mentality? Is the venting helping or hurting?
I don't believe that is the case now.