When we see evidence DID see a PM warning and, knowing the consequences, disobeyed that warning, I'll agree with you. But the fact is the evidence points to the possibility that kpaca never saw this warning or received it after the offending post was already out there.
I'm talking about Nai's standing, month old request.
That's not even including the fact that the request is unreasonable as the information was already circulated and well known in their circles by this point. Going all Gestapo was obviously the wrong way to handle it.
The mail was sent before the 2nd/3rd threads were posted. Whether kpaca read the mail at all (and further, whether he read it before he posted the thread) we will never know. That doesn't make his actions less at fault. He should have Pm'd admin before raging in the pegging chamber. He didn't.
Again, he did this in an area where everyone already knew what was going on, so no damage was done at all. More damaging was the actions taken by the moderators that led to baseless speculation being posted to reddit. If they had allowed open discussions, none of this would have happened.
This is patently false. Read the edit to my previous post.
If the business deal was so important to keep under wraps, maybe the original mod discussion leaker should be punished and not just users the moderators don't like.
That would happen, if they knew who it was, but (N_S) and other informed people will not say
What is damaging to the site is moderators who refuse to admit they've made mistakes and defends their mistakes despite evidence showing their actions have been damaging, far more than anything the banned users did.
I'm not sure where you see that they didn't admit they made mistakes. I know megs, ER, and Nai admitted that this was handled badly, on all fronts, but that they were being told that they couldn't publicize this by Curse.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
Even if the information becomes public knowledge outside their sphere of influence? That's some North Korean policy making right there.
I'll bring this up again:
The thread that Kijin got banned for is publicly hosted. Find it.
When someone does, I'll concede the point. Furthermore, I'll concede that every person banned for this should be unbanned no questions. But until then, I see that there is still some fault that lies with Gutter, and that although there should be reviews, it isn't an absolutely cut and dry issue (though some unbannings should occur)
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
Even if the information becomes public knowledge outside their sphere of influence? That's some North Korean policy making right there.
If a rumor starts up it is just that; a rumor. Until the company actually makes a statement about the rumor it has little credibility.
When info is leaked by third parties, it is completely reasonable for the company to refuse to comment or endorse any discussion of that leak. If something is leaked about the iPhone 6 which will not be released for a long time and is still in development, Apple may well decide to not comment on the rumor. It also may punish employees who spread the rumor they are trying to quell, even though the rumor will still exist despite Apple's internal gag order.
This idea that an unsubstantiated, unofficial rumor posted on a third party website means that the staff of this website should be fine with users propagating that rumor on this website is ludicrous. You are basically requiring the staff to respond to any unsubstantiated claim about the site even if they have decided that a certain rumor should not be officially dealt with yet.
If a rumor starts up it is just that; a rumor. Until the company actually makes a statement about the rumor it has little credibility.
When info is leaked by third parties, it is completely reasonable for the company to refuse to comment or endorse any discussion of that leak. If something is leaked about the iPhone 6 which will not be released for a long time and is still in development, Apple may well decide to not comment on the rumor. It also may punish employees who spread the rumor they are trying to quell, even though the rumor will still exist despite Apple's internal gag order.
This idea that an unsubstantiated, unofficial rumor posted on a third party website means that the staff of this website should be fine with users propagating that rumor on this website is ludicrous. You are basically requiring the staff to respond to any unsubstantiated claim about the site even if they have decided that a certain rumor should not be officially dealt with yet.
This is actually a very important point.
I could, right now, go out onto reddit and post this:
"Apparently because of recent drama on MTGS, the curse deal fell through. In reaction to this, the mods will be unbanning certain recently banned members, and and most importantly (N_S) will be promoted to admin to increase the number of members there. Furthermore, Hannes has agreed to sign a contract not to close the gutter under penalty of law."
It is about as corroborated as the curse thread on scg.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
The decision of what is, and is not, a reasonable request will necessarily remain the province of the Senior Staff and Hannes.
Ah, the ol' elastic clause. If we aren't allowed to debate on whether the request was or wasn't reasonable, then they might as well strike the word out of the rules entirely.
As a user, if you think that a request is unreasonable, your best option is to ask about it in the Staff Inbox.
Your worst option is to simply ignore it and later act as though someone broke into your house in the middle of the night, carried away your grandfather, and put him into a concentration camp where he dug his own grave until he was too weak to move, whereupon he was summarily shot in the head and tossed in a pile.
Really want to use such a hyperbolic, silly analogy?
You said it, not me.
Obviously he should not have reposted it again. But without communication on both parts, we've gone down this road.
Was there a request not to talk about it?
Did he talk about it anyway?
The gag order became silly once anyone with a search engine cared enough to look. If he didn't receive or read correspondence between the 11th and the day of his ban, he might have thought that the information should be talked about since the SCG rumors were misleading. All he ever requested was some communication about the future of MTGS, which shows that he cares about where the site is headed and it's well-being.
Coincidentally, there's reason to believe that you were the one to post it to reddit. Want to go down that road?
Why not? Yeah, I posted public information to reddit. It led a lot of people to assume MTGS would be getting rid of it's primary attraction, which now we know isn't true. But at the time, it was all the information I had. I had already contacted Sene, who was responsible for kpaca's ban. He told me I couldn't be helped, and the information regarding his ban was not to be released. I requested contact information for whoever is restricting the information, and Sene did not relinquish that contact information. So I can't make an accurate assessment on whether or not the ban was legitimate. My only option after that lack of communication was to get everyone's attention at reddit, when finally someone who could help me DID reach out for a conversation.
But it should never have gone that far and it could've been handled in-house with better communication, and Boubouille from Curse agreed.
@LogicX: I'm not asking MTGS staff to comment on rumors and speculation, I'm only asking them to not ban those commenting on a topic otherwise unrestricted anywhere. The only reason this was restricted information is because someone from their own staff chose to leak it and the bans were damage control. Instead of saying "yes, we messed up, we're sorry", they went into cover-up mode. The bans substantiated the information.
No, I mean the thread he posted on sally. I'm mirroring it at the moment.
It is in a cataloged portion of the net, you just need to know what you are looking for, almost exactly, to find it.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
No, I mean the thread he posted on sally. I'm mirroring it at the moment.
It is in a cataloged portion of the net, you just need to know what you are looking for, almost exactly, to find it.
Oh, like a cached version. Yeah, you could do that too. That's kind of why once information is leaked, on the Internet no less, you shouldn't try to contain it. You should just take responsibility and move on.
And you think that this was a good idea? Look at what kind of damage you managed to accomplish, by posting things that weren't really true.
It was my only option at that point. Remember, I didn't know the context of what kpaca was banned for because they wouldn't tell me. To me, it seemed like an abuse of power. It still does, but less so.
So...if Sene doesn't turn over information that you demand, which really isn't in your place to request in the first place, you have the right to start fires around the Internet?
If a moderator can't help me with my problem, it's reasonable to assume I'll ask to talk to the boss. If I can't talk to the boss, I'll get his attention until I can. This is standard with any private entity; if a customer isn't satisfied and the private entity does not rectify that, there's going to be waves made.
If I were an Admin, I'd ban you for being a troublemaker right now.
That sentiment is pretty much why anything you say doesn't hold a lot of weight. Because if you'd ban me for breaking no rules at all just because you don't like me, then you wouldn't be much of an Admin at all.
I'm not punished. You're not punished. kpaca, Kijin, Clock King, and Madding, who broke the rules, were punished.
My mafia games are unnecessarily disrupted. That's a punishment. For something that I nor them were responsible for. Someone on their own staff is responsible. All kpaca and the others wanted was a little communication, once they knew their home might be in jeopardy.
@The SCG thread: it is quite the stretch to say that because a thread literally exists on the internet somewhere, it is public knowledge (though in strict sense, I suppose it is). If we were to take all the non-staff, non-recently retired staff, non-Gutterites on the forum, and ask how many of them had even heard a rumor about the Curse sale prior to these events, and could attribute it to that SCG thread, I would be shocked if the number was higher than one in a thousand members.
Quote from Zionite »
It wasn't wise, but it didn't break a rule.
It did:
Disregarding a Moderator Request
If a Moderator makes a reasonable request that you do or not do something, please follow his or her instructions. If you feel a request from a moderator is unreasonable, contact that person via PM or at his or her Helpdesk. You may also contact a forum administrator to intervene. Do not simply ignore the moderator's request.
Quote from Zionite »
Ah, the ol' elastic clause. If we aren't allowed to debate on whether the request was or wasn't reasonable, then they might as well strike the word out of the rules entirely.
If the request was considered unreasonable by the user, they had opportunity to PM the admin who requested it about it, like the rule explains.
Quote from Zionite »
Why not? Yeah, I posted public information to reddit. It led a lot of people to assume MTGS would be getting rid of it's primary attraction, which now we know isn't true. But at the time, it was all the information I had. I had already contacted Sene, who was responsible for kpaca's ban. He told me I couldn't be helped, and the information regarding his ban was not to be released. I requested contact information for whoever is restricting the information, and Sene did not relinquish that contact information. So I can't make an accurate assessment on whether or not the ban was legitimate. My only option after that lack of communication was to get everyone's attention at reddit, when finally someone who could help me DID reach out for a conversation.
But it should never have gone that far and it could've been handled in-house with better communication, and Boubouille from Curse agreed.
I explained everything to you as best as I could, as respectfully as I could (though I was pretty frustrated at the time, like I told you), without disclosing Curse information, as was my duty.
Lack of communication? I simply chose to say the same thing to you as I've said to many other members who have asked (Harkius here among them), that this is classified and we will release information as soon as we can, but that this is a Big Deal. You are not entitled to this classified information, and that really is something you just have to accept.
Additionally, you have claimed that it was my/our wish to have kpaca banned. I have refuted that over and over, but you still chose to tell us what our position is. That was, frankly, one of the reasons why I quit (not pointing to you in particular, not at all - just a general thing I'm very tired of). I valued integrity and honesty over everything else I did at this site, and when I explain my position, it is the truth, and I'm really bad at coping with posts that make unfounded assumptions about my position or motives. If anyone can point to even one single instance where I have been dishonest to the users during my tenure as moderator, global moderator, or admin, then please put that on the table so that concerns about my integrity can be shown to hold any sort of validity.
Heck, on the same day as this leak happened (earlier in the day), I posted in the Moderator Lounge that I will resign before I lie to the users. I absolutely will not do it, ever. Staff who have access to this post are free to quote it (and any other relevant posts I've posted in the Mod Lounge, just as general policy) in full, if they think it's a good idea.
@The SCG thread: it is quite the stretch to say that because a thread literally exists on the internet somewhere, it is public knowledge (though in strict sense, I suppose it is). If we were to take all the non-staff, non-recently retired staff, non-Gutterites on the forum, and ask how many of them had even heard a rumor about the Curse sale prior to these events, and could attribute it to that SCG thread, I would be shocked if the number was higher than one in a thousand members.
It did:
If the request was considered unreasonable by the user, they had opportunity to PM the admin who requested it about it, like the rule explains.
I explained everything to you as best as I could, as respectfully as I could (though I was pretty frustrated at the time, like I told you), without disclosing Curse information, as was my duty.
Lack of communication? I simply chose to say the same thing to you as I've said to many other members who have asked (Harkius here among them), that this is classified and we will release information as soon as we can, but that this is a Big Deal. You are not entitled to this classified information, and that really is something you just have to accept.
Additionally, you have claimed that it was my/our wish to have kpaca banned. I have refuted that over and over, but you still chose to tell us what our position is. That was, frankly, one of the reasons why I quit (not pointing to you in particular, not at all - just a general thing I'm very tired of). I valued integrity and honesty over everything else I did at this site, and when I explain my position, it is the truth, and I'm really bad at coping with posts that make unfounded assumptions about my position or motives. If anyone can point to even one single instance where I have been dishonest to the users during my tenure as moderator, global moderator, or admin, then please put that on the table so that concerns about my integrity can be shown to hold any sort of validity.
Heck, on the same day as this leak happened (earlier in the day), I posted in the Moderator Lounge that I will resign before I lie to the users. I absolutely will not do it, ever. Staff who have access to this post are free to quote it (and any other relevant posts I've posted in the Mod Lounge, just as general policy) in full, if they think it's a good idea.
Sene,
Don't get me wrong, you were nothing but respectful and cooperative. I even said that I appreciated your understanding and cordial behavior. It was quite refreshing. I know if you were in charge of everything then it would've been handled differently and kpaca would still be here.
But I also understood that it wasn't your decision, it was your boss' decision. I wanted to talk to whoever could straighten it out for me so I can make the determination for myself, especially when there is reason to believe that it could be a power-play against dissenting voices in the community.
@The SCG thread: it is quite the stretch to say that because a thread literally exists on the internet somewhere, it is public knowledge (though in strict sense, I suppose it is). If we were to take all the non-staff, non-recently retired staff, non-Gutterites on the forum, and ask how many of them had even heard a rumor about the Curse sale prior to these events, and could attribute it to that SCG thread, I would be shocked if the number was higher than one in a thousand members.
It did:
If the request was considered unreasonable by the user, they had opportunity to PM the admin who requested it about it, like the rule explains.
What would you have done if he had followed the rule by posting (publicly) on the helpdesk of the one who made that request, saying he thought it was unreasonable not to be able to discuss the upcoming purchase of MTGS by Curse?
What would you have done if he had followed the rule by posting (publicly) on the helpdesk of the one who made that request, saying he thought it was unreasonable not to be able to discuss the upcoming purchase of MTGS by Curse?
Since the request was that he were not to talk about it publicly, we are to assume that the helpdesk option is out, or at least without just alluding to the "gag order". For example:
I am appealing the gag order put in place in the Gutter @ what N_S was banned for leaking, as I find it completely unreasonable.
Would probably have been accepted, but also more than likely moved to PMs, as an open discussion about it couldn't realistically be held on a helpdesk.
@Zionite: Mm, alright. Sorry for being aggressive there. But the highest instance on this site when it comes to appeals and such are the administrators, because the owner is almost always MIA, and when an administrator tells you it can't be talked about, it really can't, and your fears about our integrity when it comes to the decision should be attempted allayed in another way than being privy to this classified information (for example by appealing it to another administrator). Since it wasn't Hannes who told us wait before revealing anything, I would have had to direct you to Curse, and that would have explained everything right away, obviously.
I actually don't have any opinion about you. I don't know you. I know that your behavior reeks of the kinds of problems that KCW engendered. That ( N_S ) engendered. And now Kijin and kpaca as well.
Seeing a pattern? I am.
I think I understand now why people don't take you seriously. Though on the other hand, I've now come to greatly respect your skill at doublespeak.
Additionally, you have claimed that it was my/our wish to have kpaca banned. I have refuted that over and over, but you still chose to tell us what our position is. That was, frankly, one of the reasons why I quit (not pointing to you in particular, not at all - just a general thing I'm very tired of). I valued integrity and honesty over everything else I did at this site, and when I explain my position, it is the truth, and I'm really bad at coping with posts that make unfounded assumptions about my position or motives. If anyone can point to even one single instance where I have been dishonest to the users during my tenure as moderator, global moderator, or admin, then please put that on the table so that concerns about my integrity can be shown to hold any sort of validity.
Heck, on the same day as this leak happened (earlier in the day), I posted in the Moderator Lounge that I will resign before I lie to the users. I absolutely will not do it, ever. Staff who have access to this post are free to quote it (and any other relevant posts I've posted in the Mod Lounge, just as general policy) in full, if they think it's a good idea.
I kinda don`t get this; I mean you were an Administrator here, on MTGS, essentially the highest position one can be (since, as you have correctly pointed out, Hannes is practically 100% AWOL), so I`d assume that you`re your own boss, and that you can actually change things.
Or is the bureaucracy level already OVER 9000 and stifling any attempt of turning things for the better?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Petals within petals within petals, tadpole. The truth lurks below an opulence of illusion."
—Neerdiv, fallowsage
Heck, on the same day as this leak happened (earlier in the day), I posted in the Moderator Lounge that I will resign before I lie to the users. I absolutely will not do it, ever. Staff who have access to this post are free to quote it (and any other relevant posts I've posted in the Mod Lounge, just as general policy) in full, if they think it's a good idea.
Actually, can I see that post? I'd appreciate knowing the full breadth of the statement, as Sene's words tend to be a wonderful guide in my understanding on complex issues.
I kinda don`t get this; I mean you were an Administrator here, on MTGS, essentially the highest position one can be (since, as you have correctly pointed out, Hannes is practically 100% AWOL), so I`d assume that you`re your own boss, and that you can actually change things.
Or is the bureaucracy level already OVER 9000 and stifling any attempt of turning things for the better?
Let me tell you, being an admin is much harder and complicated than it looks, and making changes takes time. Especially after the Gutter closure incident, where we got (well deserved) flak for not including the vanilla staff in the decision, and we started to include the whole staff in most decisions. Not just that, we also included Community Issues in many of the discussions. All this together means that things take time. A lot of time. Everything is debated to death due to the heavy, heavy emphasis on staff transparency, and one admin's thoughts and opinions actually matter way less than you would think. And I pretty much never pulled the admin card and said "you have [this position] while I'm an admin, so overruled". All the voices mattered, so we talked it out.
Admins clearly have a lot of impact, but quite as much as you'd think.
Actually, can I see that post? I'd appreciate knowing the full breadth of the statement, as Sene's words tend to be a wonderful guide in my understanding on complex issues.
I don't have access to it anymore, but like I said earlier, anyone is free to quote any relevant Mod Lounge post I've ever posted. It should be said that this was part of a misunderstanding regarding the Gutter that was later cleared up, but that kpaca heard about and made him react.
SOOOO Another gets suspended because of this? Way for this to really turn ****ing sour quicker. There is no more respect for this staff cause all that had any have left.
SOOOO Another gets suspended because of this? Way for this to really turn ****ing sour quicker. There is no more respect for this staff cause all that had any have left.
Youll have to forgive me if Im a little behind. Who got suspended today (or yesterday I guess as the case may be) because of this? Would help in understanding where you are coming from with your post.
Let me tell you, being an admin is much harder and complicated than it looks, and making changes takes time. Especially after the Gutter closure incident, where we got (well deserved) flak for not including the vanilla staff in the decision, and we started to include the whole staff in most decisions. Not just that, we also included Community Issues in many of the discussions. All this together means that things take time. A lot of time. Everything is debated to death due to the heavy, heavy emphasis on staff transparency, and one admin's thoughts and opinions actually matter way less than you would think. And I pretty much never pulled the admin card and said "you have [this position] while I'm an admin, so overruled". All the voices mattered, so we talked it out.
Admins clearly have a lot of impact, but quite as much as you'd think.
I can second what Sene is saying here.
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News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
I'll third this. The speed at which things at which we were trying to do things when myself, Sakabatou and Wolfwood were admins was a largely contributing factor to how things went sour. Change must happen slow to take into account all potential pros and cons. You can't make changes on a whim and expect them to go over well. We can all see how much resistance pops up from the typical crowd trying to fight the man, so to speak, when careful consideration goes into a decision. If you just do things without consulting the rest of the staff (or some times the user base if the subject calls for it)? Good luck there.
Youll have to forgive me if Im a little behind. Who got suspended today (or yesterday I guess as the case may be) because of this? Would help in understanding where you are coming from with your post.
SOOOO Another gets suspended because of this? Way for this to really turn ****ing sour quicker. There is no more respect for this staff cause all that had any have left.
When this suspension was issued, it appears the issuer missed posting it in the S/B thread. I'm working to resolve this, but I have some pretty severe connectivity problems at the moment (this also should tell you why my presence has been nearly non-existent the past couple days).
I apologize for the delay. As soon as I can get the post successfully submitted on my connection, it will be.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
This is my opinion, and not that of the moderator, but I have a serious problem with how we are dealing with problems and drama at this time. WTC aside (because I only have a layman's view of the problem based on ML talks and the thread in CI), some of these posts against the staff have been absolutely horrible, and it feels more like answering daggers, than "legitimate" complaints.
I applaud you all for defending the right of a senior staff member to flame the members here. The hoops you're willing to jump through to attempt to obscure the facts are quite entertaining.
Arcadic flamed at least one member of the community. Fact.
Flaming is against the forum rules. Fact.
Flaming is against the staff code of conduct. Fact.
SOOOO Another gets suspended because of this? Way for this to really turn ****ing sour quicker. There is no more respect for this staff cause all that had any have left.
This whole situation is so much of a ******** that I cannot even be bothered arguing with idiots.
All I will say is that everything that has happened is wrong.
Now I could keep going, but I think my point here is clear: There is far too much of these potshots being taken at each others expense, and some of these aren't even against the moderators. But here our a list of points I wanted to make about this whole situation. Note that again, this is my suggestion/opinion, not any type of formal request
1). This negativity has to stop if any productivity is going to take place.
No one is going to argue or talk things out logically if every other post is a snipe, troll or flame. All that's going to happen is that we are all going to circle jerk for God knows long. So if you don't have something nice/productive to say, shove it.
2). Users asking for moderator resignations.
You are so so so out of line here, it revolts me. If this (bannings/Curse) is the moderator's version of handling things poorly, the "Gloves" thread is the user's version. The posts in there asking for Arcadic's resignation, how dare you. Complain to an administrator, talk it out, but publicly asking for someone to step down: What exactly did you think would happen? Would Arcadic happily oblige, or were you just trying to fan the flames?
3). Agree to Disagree
To anyone who thinks Kpaca or Kijin should be unbanned, I would be astonished if we could ever talk together and cooperate. The others who were banned are debatable (bar Clock King), but those two goofed so hard when they were already on the thinnest ice imaginable, and to consider giving them yet another chance is so beyond me, I don't even have the (appropriate) words for it. There is one thing I agree with Arcadic in his rant: Who ever is leaking this information is not doing the site a service at all. That person may have single handily ruined any potential deal with Curse, and should quite frankly, be ashamed of themselves.
Rant over. We should all be chilling right now, and be a little kinder to each other.
TCM, I can agree with the sentiment of your post. Surely civility and constructive suggestions are of inestimable value to resolving these issues. And I don't see a persuasive argument why the staff being in the wrong on certain points would mean that the gutter members must be unbanned. And I'm not entirely certain they want to be unbanned at this point.
However, I think it's important that the staff admit that the ongoing tension with the userbase is not appearing out of a vacuum, but due to a pattern of repeated blows to the staff's reputation over the past year:
-The attempted unilateral closure of the gutter.
-The decision to exclude regular moderators from participation in that decision.
-The exodus of numerous staff members during Rian/Viper/Sene's tenure as admin, accompanied by complaints of inappropriate behavior that the staff failed to resolve without external pressure.
-The regular moderator veto of the summit accountability measures despite a 2/3 majority of the userbase in favor, and the continuing lack of any suitable mechanism to replace them.
-The attempted institution (yet again) of new rules in WCT, and the ongoing lack of a resolution and confidence in the leadership.
-Questions regarding the handling of verbals and the rule against spam.
-The leaks of the Curse information and resulting fallout.
Certainly, the best way to handle these events is in a spirit of constructive cooperation. But equally certain is that the frequency and the magnitude of controversial judgments by the staff have markedly increased, and every new crisis has only added to the number of frustrated and disillusioned users.
WCT is in crisis and is noticeably declining in activity as a direct result of moderator decisions. An entire subforum's worth of users, the gutter, has essentially committed mass-suicide in protest of the staff's handling of their sub. The moderation team itself has experienced considerable turmoil and fractures, and lost many capable personnel along the way.
With so many crises and frustrations following one after another, is it so hard to understand why so many among the userbase have at times lost their composure and have begun to lose their faith in the site leadership?
There are still many encouraging trends, many effective personnel, and much exaggeration and hyperbole as to the state of the staff. But the staff does need to take seriously the task of becoming more effective in responding to feedback from the userbase, successfully mediating drama, and making more intelligent and more informed decisions.
Asking the userbase not to be overcome by their frustration is an important step. But in addition to that, the staff needs to recognize the need to correct their present course, avoid additional missteps, and fully embrace a philosophy of putting the userbase first. Without that, CI will continue to degenerate and exhaust the staff's dwindling resources, and the community will be further harmed.
With so many crises and frustrations following one after another, is it so hard to understand why so many among the userbase have at times lost their composure and have begun to lose their faith in the site leadership?
This really struck a chord in me because I can really relate to this. I find it increasingly harder and harder each day to think that the staff has things on the right track when there has been so much fallout in the last few months. I want to believe, but I just can't.
Despite people saying to leave the staff alone and say that every thing is going to be fine, well, there's only so much of that you can listen to before you start to wonder what's really going on behind the scenes. I posted a thread a long time ago asking why so many mods were let go, and I was told that we were only going through a transition and a change in the culture of the staff. Everything was fine, which was basically what staff members told me. Fast forward to today and I'm beginning to second guess what I was told several months ago. It just might be the fact that I'm still really young compared to a lot of people here, but I feel we should be questioning authority. I have never seen this amount of turmoil in the history of MTG Salvation.
I'm talking about Nai's standing, month old request.
The mail was sent before the 2nd/3rd threads were posted. Whether kpaca read the mail at all (and further, whether he read it before he posted the thread) we will never know. That doesn't make his actions less at fault. He should have Pm'd admin before raging in the pegging chamber. He didn't.
This is patently false. Read the edit to my previous post.
That would happen, if they knew who it was, but (N_S) and other informed people will not say
I'm not sure where you see that they didn't admit they made mistakes. I know megs, ER, and Nai admitted that this was handled badly, on all fronts, but that they were being told that they couldn't publicize this by Curse.
I'll bring this up again:
The thread that Kijin got banned for is publicly hosted. Find it.
When someone does, I'll concede the point. Furthermore, I'll concede that every person banned for this should be unbanned no questions. But until then, I see that there is still some fault that lies with Gutter, and that although there should be reviews, it isn't an absolutely cut and dry issue (though some unbannings should occur)
If a rumor starts up it is just that; a rumor. Until the company actually makes a statement about the rumor it has little credibility.
When info is leaked by third parties, it is completely reasonable for the company to refuse to comment or endorse any discussion of that leak. If something is leaked about the iPhone 6 which will not be released for a long time and is still in development, Apple may well decide to not comment on the rumor. It also may punish employees who spread the rumor they are trying to quell, even though the rumor will still exist despite Apple's internal gag order.
This idea that an unsubstantiated, unofficial rumor posted on a third party website means that the staff of this website should be fine with users propagating that rumor on this website is ludicrous. You are basically requiring the staff to respond to any unsubstantiated claim about the site even if they have decided that a certain rumor should not be officially dealt with yet.
This is actually a very important point.
I could, right now, go out onto reddit and post this:
"Apparently because of recent drama on MTGS, the curse deal fell through. In reaction to this, the mods will be unbanning certain recently banned members, and and most importantly (N_S) will be promoted to admin to increase the number of members there. Furthermore, Hannes has agreed to sign a contract not to close the gutter under penalty of law."
It is about as corroborated as the curse thread on scg.
It wasn't wise, but it didn't break a rule.
Ah, the ol' elastic clause. If we aren't allowed to debate on whether the request was or wasn't reasonable, then they might as well strike the word out of the rules entirely.
You said it, not me.
Obviously he should not have reposted it again. But without communication on both parts, we've gone down this road.
The gag order became silly once anyone with a search engine cared enough to look. If he didn't receive or read correspondence between the 11th and the day of his ban, he might have thought that the information should be talked about since the SCG rumors were misleading. All he ever requested was some communication about the future of MTGS, which shows that he cares about where the site is headed and it's well-being.
Why not? Yeah, I posted public information to reddit. It led a lot of people to assume MTGS would be getting rid of it's primary attraction, which now we know isn't true. But at the time, it was all the information I had. I had already contacted Sene, who was responsible for kpaca's ban. He told me I couldn't be helped, and the information regarding his ban was not to be released. I requested contact information for whoever is restricting the information, and Sene did not relinquish that contact information. So I can't make an accurate assessment on whether or not the ban was legitimate. My only option after that lack of communication was to get everyone's attention at reddit, when finally someone who could help me DID reach out for a conversation.
But it should never have gone that far and it could've been handled in-house with better communication, and Boubouille from Curse agreed.
So because the staff messed up and has security issues, we're all punished. Nice.
If it's the only information available then suddenly it becomes far more relevant.
@Glimy: This one.
@LogicX: I'm not asking MTGS staff to comment on rumors and speculation, I'm only asking them to not ban those commenting on a topic otherwise unrestricted anywhere. The only reason this was restricted information is because someone from their own staff chose to leak it and the bans were damage control. Instead of saying "yes, we messed up, we're sorry", they went into cover-up mode. The bans substantiated the information.
No, I mean the thread he posted on sally. I'm mirroring it at the moment.
It is in a cataloged portion of the net, you just need to know what you are looking for, almost exactly, to find it.
Oh, like a cached version. Yeah, you could do that too. That's kind of why once information is leaked, on the Internet no less, you shouldn't try to contain it. You should just take responsibility and move on.
It was my only option at that point. Remember, I didn't know the context of what kpaca was banned for because they wouldn't tell me. To me, it seemed like an abuse of power. It still does, but less so.
If a moderator can't help me with my problem, it's reasonable to assume I'll ask to talk to the boss. If I can't talk to the boss, I'll get his attention until I can. This is standard with any private entity; if a customer isn't satisfied and the private entity does not rectify that, there's going to be waves made.
That sentiment is pretty much why anything you say doesn't hold a lot of weight. Because if you'd ban me for breaking no rules at all just because you don't like me, then you wouldn't be much of an Admin at all.
My mafia games are unnecessarily disrupted. That's a punishment. For something that I nor them were responsible for. Someone on their own staff is responsible. All kpaca and the others wanted was a little communication, once they knew their home might be in jeopardy.
It did:
If the request was considered unreasonable by the user, they had opportunity to PM the admin who requested it about it, like the rule explains.
I explained everything to you as best as I could, as respectfully as I could (though I was pretty frustrated at the time, like I told you), without disclosing Curse information, as was my duty.
Lack of communication? I simply chose to say the same thing to you as I've said to many other members who have asked (Harkius here among them), that this is classified and we will release information as soon as we can, but that this is a Big Deal. You are not entitled to this classified information, and that really is something you just have to accept.
Additionally, you have claimed that it was my/our wish to have kpaca banned. I have refuted that over and over, but you still chose to tell us what our position is. That was, frankly, one of the reasons why I quit (not pointing to you in particular, not at all - just a general thing I'm very tired of). I valued integrity and honesty over everything else I did at this site, and when I explain my position, it is the truth, and I'm really bad at coping with posts that make unfounded assumptions about my position or motives. If anyone can point to even one single instance where I have been dishonest to the users during my tenure as moderator, global moderator, or admin, then please put that on the table so that concerns about my integrity can be shown to hold any sort of validity.
Heck, on the same day as this leak happened (earlier in the day), I posted in the Moderator Lounge that I will resign before I lie to the users. I absolutely will not do it, ever. Staff who have access to this post are free to quote it (and any other relevant posts I've posted in the Mod Lounge, just as general policy) in full, if they think it's a good idea.
Sene,
Don't get me wrong, you were nothing but respectful and cooperative. I even said that I appreciated your understanding and cordial behavior. It was quite refreshing. I know if you were in charge of everything then it would've been handled differently and kpaca would still be here.
But I also understood that it wasn't your decision, it was your boss' decision. I wanted to talk to whoever could straighten it out for me so I can make the determination for myself, especially when there is reason to believe that it could be a power-play against dissenting voices in the community.
What would you have done if he had followed the rule by posting (publicly) on the helpdesk of the one who made that request, saying he thought it was unreasonable not to be able to discuss the upcoming purchase of MTGS by Curse?
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Since the request was that he were not to talk about it publicly, we are to assume that the helpdesk option is out, or at least without just alluding to the "gag order". For example:
Would probably have been accepted, but also more than likely moved to PMs, as an open discussion about it couldn't realistically be held on a helpdesk.
@Zionite: Mm, alright. Sorry for being aggressive there. But the highest instance on this site when it comes to appeals and such are the administrators, because the owner is almost always MIA, and when an administrator tells you it can't be talked about, it really can't, and your fears about our integrity when it comes to the decision should be attempted allayed in another way than being privy to this classified information (for example by appealing it to another administrator). Since it wasn't Hannes who told us wait before revealing anything, I would have had to direct you to Curse, and that would have explained everything right away, obviously.
I think I understand now why people don't take you seriously. Though on the other hand, I've now come to greatly respect your skill at doublespeak.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
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I kinda don`t get this; I mean you were an Administrator here, on MTGS, essentially the highest position one can be (since, as you have correctly pointed out, Hannes is practically 100% AWOL), so I`d assume that you`re your own boss, and that you can actually change things.
Or is the bureaucracy level already OVER 9000 and stifling any attempt of turning things for the better?
—Neerdiv, fallowsage
Actually, can I see that post? I'd appreciate knowing the full breadth of the statement, as Sene's words tend to be a wonderful guide in my understanding on complex issues.
Let me tell you, being an admin is much harder and complicated than it looks, and making changes takes time. Especially after the Gutter closure incident, where we got (well deserved) flak for not including the vanilla staff in the decision, and we started to include the whole staff in most decisions. Not just that, we also included Community Issues in many of the discussions. All this together means that things take time. A lot of time. Everything is debated to death due to the heavy, heavy emphasis on staff transparency, and one admin's thoughts and opinions actually matter way less than you would think. And I pretty much never pulled the admin card and said "you have [this position] while I'm an admin, so overruled". All the voices mattered, so we talked it out.
Admins clearly have a lot of impact, but quite as much as you'd think.
I don't have access to it anymore, but like I said earlier, anyone is free to quote any relevant Mod Lounge post I've ever posted. It should be said that this was part of a misunderstanding regarding the Gutter that was later cleared up, but that kpaca heard about and made him react.
Youll have to forgive me if Im a little behind. Who got suspended today (or yesterday I guess as the case may be) because of this? Would help in understanding where you are coming from with your post.
I can second what Sene is saying here.
Twitter
I'll third this. The speed at which things at which we were trying to do things when myself, Sakabatou and Wolfwood were admins was a largely contributing factor to how things went sour. Change must happen slow to take into account all potential pros and cons. You can't make changes on a whim and expect them to go over well. We can all see how much resistance pops up from the typical crowd trying to fight the man, so to speak, when careful consideration goes into a decision. If you just do things without consulting the rest of the staff (or some times the user base if the subject calls for it)? Good luck there.
(Also known as Xenphire)
I am a badman
When this suspension was issued, it appears the issuer missed posting it in the S/B thread. I'm working to resolve this, but I have some pretty severe connectivity problems at the moment (this also should tell you why my presence has been nearly non-existent the past couple days).
I apologize for the delay. As soon as I can get the post successfully submitted on my connection, it will be.
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I just want a highlight a few I have seen:
Now I could keep going, but I think my point here is clear: There is far too much of these potshots being taken at each others expense, and some of these aren't even against the moderators. But here our a list of points I wanted to make about this whole situation. Note that again, this is my suggestion/opinion, not any type of formal request
1). This negativity has to stop if any productivity is going to take place.
No one is going to argue or talk things out logically if every other post is a snipe, troll or flame. All that's going to happen is that we are all going to circle jerk for God knows long. So if you don't have something nice/productive to say, shove it.
2). Users asking for moderator resignations.
You are so so so out of line here, it revolts me. If this (bannings/Curse) is the moderator's version of handling things poorly, the "Gloves" thread is the user's version. The posts in there asking for Arcadic's resignation, how dare you. Complain to an administrator, talk it out, but publicly asking for someone to step down: What exactly did you think would happen? Would Arcadic happily oblige, or were you just trying to fan the flames?
3). Agree to Disagree
To anyone who thinks Kpaca or Kijin should be unbanned, I would be astonished if we could ever talk together and cooperate. The others who were banned are debatable (bar Clock King), but those two goofed so hard when they were already on the thinnest ice imaginable, and to consider giving them yet another chance is so beyond me, I don't even have the (appropriate) words for it. There is one thing I agree with Arcadic in his rant: Who ever is leaking this information is not doing the site a service at all. That person may have single handily ruined any potential deal with Curse, and should quite frankly, be ashamed of themselves.
Rant over. We should all be chilling right now, and be a little kinder to each other.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
However, I think it's important that the staff admit that the ongoing tension with the userbase is not appearing out of a vacuum, but due to a pattern of repeated blows to the staff's reputation over the past year:
-The attempted unilateral closure of the gutter.
-The decision to exclude regular moderators from participation in that decision.
-The exodus of numerous staff members during Rian/Viper/Sene's tenure as admin, accompanied by complaints of inappropriate behavior that the staff failed to resolve without external pressure.
-The regular moderator veto of the summit accountability measures despite a 2/3 majority of the userbase in favor, and the continuing lack of any suitable mechanism to replace them.
-The attempted institution (yet again) of new rules in WCT, and the ongoing lack of a resolution and confidence in the leadership.
-Questions regarding the handling of verbals and the rule against spam.
-The leaks of the Curse information and resulting fallout.
Certainly, the best way to handle these events is in a spirit of constructive cooperation. But equally certain is that the frequency and the magnitude of controversial judgments by the staff have markedly increased, and every new crisis has only added to the number of frustrated and disillusioned users.
WCT is in crisis and is noticeably declining in activity as a direct result of moderator decisions. An entire subforum's worth of users, the gutter, has essentially committed mass-suicide in protest of the staff's handling of their sub. The moderation team itself has experienced considerable turmoil and fractures, and lost many capable personnel along the way.
With so many crises and frustrations following one after another, is it so hard to understand why so many among the userbase have at times lost their composure and have begun to lose their faith in the site leadership?
There are still many encouraging trends, many effective personnel, and much exaggeration and hyperbole as to the state of the staff. But the staff does need to take seriously the task of becoming more effective in responding to feedback from the userbase, successfully mediating drama, and making more intelligent and more informed decisions.
Asking the userbase not to be overcome by their frustration is an important step. But in addition to that, the staff needs to recognize the need to correct their present course, avoid additional missteps, and fully embrace a philosophy of putting the userbase first. Without that, CI will continue to degenerate and exhaust the staff's dwindling resources, and the community will be further harmed.
This really struck a chord in me because I can really relate to this. I find it increasingly harder and harder each day to think that the staff has things on the right track when there has been so much fallout in the last few months. I want to believe, but I just can't.
Despite people saying to leave the staff alone and say that every thing is going to be fine, well, there's only so much of that you can listen to before you start to wonder what's really going on behind the scenes. I posted a thread a long time ago asking why so many mods were let go, and I was told that we were only going through a transition and a change in the culture of the staff. Everything was fine, which was basically what staff members told me. Fast forward to today and I'm beginning to second guess what I was told several months ago. It just might be the fact that I'm still really young compared to a lot of people here, but I feel we should be questioning authority. I have never seen this amount of turmoil in the history of MTG Salvation.