I'm curious, were you here for MTGNews and the exodus thereof?
My primary thought when I saw the leak was "If people think this is a repeat of Raa and S_S, we've lost the site we love". Some people have already made the comparison. If people start believing the Rumor Mill is dead, that the new owners will start mass-banning, or any other speculation without background, we'd lose our membership. Not wanting that to happen, I did what I thought of first. Try to stop the rumor before it started. I wasn't entirely successful.
Any negative ramifications of the gag order are, thus, my fault.
I was not - I joined this site only two months ago, and while I have been lurking on and off for the better part of two years, it would be a lie to say that I am aware of the Raa and S_S situation apart from what I have heard thirdhand regarding the MTGNews thread currently active here in CI.
The point I am making is with regard to the Streisand Effect - once you start trying to quash rumors and dissent about something, that fosters more of the very same fear and resentment that you are hoping to stifle, but now with the added fear that by the very fact the administration is trying to stop discussion, there is inherently something that needs to be quashed. What that something is will be filled in by the imaginations of the reader, including many of the things that have previously been mentioned. (site shutdown, mod overhaul, rumor mill closure, etc.)
As they say, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions", and while I have no reason to believe that the MTGS is headed to Hell after this discussion and statements by the staff, I did in the period between the leak in CI that was quickly shut down and the time there was an official thread / announcement on the matter.
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Perhaps the person that did the gag order can shed some light on the subject.
There was a leak of some sort that allows (N_S) to reveal the sale to the Gutter. As soon as he revealed the potential sale, at least one person assumed the Gutter would be closed. Another person assumed the Rumor Mill would be closed.
As soon as we realized what was going on, I went in and told them in no uncertain terms that this sale was in its infancy, could be awesome for the site, and could bring us amazing things. I also let them know that making uninformed statements like 'The Gutter will be closed' and "The Rumor mill will be closed" could be terrible for the site if they were released to the public. I removed the posts with the information and then told them that it needed to be kept quiet, for the time being, so that we could actually get details.
For a while afterwards, I was asked why there was a gag order. Why I felt the information needed to be hidden. Why, essentially, I was asking them to keep quiet if the deal could be so good.
My response was simple. Telling the site that "There may potentially be a sale, but we have no details about how this will actually affect us" would not be safe. Rumors spread, people speculate. If you go look at the Reddit thread about this sale, a number of people have already left this site and refuse to come back because they believe that the Rumor Mill will be shut down. That's the exact type of thing I was trying to avoid.
There was an argument for a while on the subject before I finally left the thread.
This will probably be my last post on this subject for a while, but I just want to say this.
I find the gag order issued to be disgusting. It's one thing to tell staff members or former staff members not to talk about it, but to threaten regular members with punishment for talking about something they have every right to talk about is something that I cannot tolerate.
What the staff did here was censorship and suppression. I might, as people have pointed out, not have a right to free speech on this site, but by God as my witness I will fight and expect that I and my fellow members have free speech.
Once the leak occurred the damage was already done. Putting in a gag order was just oppressing the innocent. Before anyone asks, sure they might not be innocent of other things, but in this case they were innocents given knowledge and then told telling others that knowledge would get them punished.
Maybe there was a better course of action or maybe no course of action would've prevented people from speculating and leaving, but the gag order was not the right answer. Sometimes you have to man up and accept that **** happens and take the punch on the chin. Having people leave the site is always a risk in these types of instants. So is the deal falling through. But damage control is not pretending the damage never happened.
The gag order was deemed necessary because, at the time, we had asked if we could talk about the deal and Curse asked us to not do so. This was actually the case up until last night.
We couldn't go public with absolutely 0 information. The best we'd have was "There may be a deal going on, but we have no details." This was deemed ill advised, especially since people were already speculating because there were no details.
That's great and all, but you're forgetting that you confirmed a possible sale. While posting in the gutter. It wasn't a secret at all if you were following the only relevant gutter thread. In fact, if I recall correctly, you said something along the lines of "you guys are chill, so be cool." There was no statement that disscusion of the possible sale should be stopped in the gutter. Basically you said everything that you claim to know except the actual site curse.com. At that point anyone who had the slightest inkling of curiosity could have found out who the potential buyer was. I knew and I knew that everyone else knew. I didn't talk about it because there was nothing to say. kpaca got some bad info and posted about the sale where only mods and people who could view your post confirming the rumor could see it. Was it really that bad to put a name to the face? kpaca was only trying to find out what was really going on, albeit in his own way.
You're not going to ban yourself formposting about the sale, so why ban kpaca?
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The ironic thing about people leaving because of thinking the Rumor Mill would have to go, is that outside of New Phyrexia's god book leak (that wasn't our doing), we haven't had a complete spoiler from farther out than a weekend before a pre-release in ages without WotC's help. By that I mean them leaking everything the week before the pre-release. Outside of someone posting commons/uncommons to complete the spoiler, the Rumor Mill is a husk of what it once was. So in all reality, with the great majority of spoilers coming from official sources, we wouldn't be missing much if it went.
Granted, knee-jerk reactions are common place in internet communities.
kpaca thought it would be fine to post in the Staff-Gutter area because the Gutter already knew. Granted, when he reposted, it was set in stone, but if Staff has engaged him instead of trying to silence him, none of this would have happened.
And apparently he kept thinking that even after his post was deleted by an admin. I don't buy it.
The only thing kpaca did was ask, in an area only Gutter and mods can see, if the Gutter would be kept in the loop about the sale because we already knew about it AND we are the one area that has the most to lose.
He got banned for that.
Woah now. What he did was more than that. I don't have access to the forum and the deleted posts anymore, but I happened to screenshot it for another purpose. Post 1:
@The Staff: put your money where your mouth is and be straight with us this time you secret squirrel ****s.
When I saw this post (less than a minute after it was posted), I deleted it and immediately PM'd kpaca to stop what he was doing because all he was building on was assumptions (the assumption that Gutter would be closed due to Curse, specifically), and that this was hush-hush. But kpaca re-posted it:
Hey how bout we not delete my posts and man the **** up you secret squirrel ass *****s.
Whats up with that? Yall want to be more disengenuous or yall want to be straight with us this time.
For the record, the url of the post the admins tried to cover up:
[link to the post]
The third post I haven't a screenshot of, but it went something like this "I wish it was true that the admins didn't delete posts".
A few things: kpaca said he did not read my PM until after he had posted what he did, but why not delete it when you know for sure that it's unwelcome? And after correctly assuming that an admin deleted the post, what makes one think that re-posting it is okay? The reaction to this should be either 1) why did my post get deleted (in which case the natural thing to do is ask)? or 2) so my post was deleted, I guess what I did wasn't allowed. And it wasn't like I was slow to ship an explanation to kpaca, it was in his inbox within 3 minutes of the deletion of the post.
And of course, it was already well known that this wasn't a kosher subject ever since Nai's wall of red text in the Gutter.
If, despite this blanket warning, he wanted to know more about the status of things, there are multiple things he could, and should, have done. For example, instead of posting a hostile comment in Pegs drawing definite negative attention to the ordeal, he could, for example, have PM'd an admin about it to confirm/deny the rumor (we would have been able to deny the rumor while explaining the situation), he could have asked whether the subject was still not allowed to talk about, and he could have stopped when he realized that what he was doing was considered not okay.
Lastly, kpaca was on probation due to two earlier suspension evasions, so committing anything considered to be a suspension worthy offense would automatically turn into a ban instead.
Now, I want to say that the ban of kpaca (or any of the other users that were banned or suspended - I don't know who's received what penalty to be frank) was something that caused me no end of frustration, because I did not want to ban him. I've defended him (and the other guys involved) many times behind closed doors, for sure more than they realize (and more than once have I been accused of playing favorites), and seeing this - in my eyes - self destruction, after all this time, after all the dialogue we've had... my annoyance then was, let's say, considerable.
Anyway, it is of course up to the staff to now review these bans and suspensions, and I'll respect either decision. My own view on this flies in the face of what I personally want, but I think the ban on kpaca, at the very least, was correct.
The posts kpaca posted weren't questions, or invited discussion in any way. They were hostile attacks based on incorrect information he had been leaked from the mod lounge (with 99% certainty).
Edit:
Quote from Nai »
That post was deleted as well. He then posted that his posts were actually being deleted, but stayed silent about Curse from that point onwards.
I still do believe that this could`ve been handled differently and better, much earlier on.
I think it would`ve been reasonable to ask the potential buyer to post a statement that the site`s gonna get sold (not to whom, mind you), and that the, by far, most crucial part of this site - namely the Rumor Mill - is going to stay. (I`d simply imply that Hannes wouldn`t be that stupid to sell MTGS to someone who`s going to shut down the thing that basically carries our traffic, because that`d be akin to capitulate conditionless to someone of whom you know he will shoot you dead after your conditionless capitulation.)
It`d be the most elegant way - put everything necessary on the table while calming everyone down, lest there`ll be bad rumors about the site that the Rumor Mill`s going to get shut down or stuff like that, just as it happened right now.
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"Petals within petals within petals, tadpole. The truth lurks below an opulence of illusion."
—Neerdiv, fallowsage
I still do believe that this could`ve been handled differently and better, much earlier on.
I think it would`ve been reasonable to ask the potential buyer to post a statement that the site`s gonna get sold (not to whom, mind you), and that the, by far, most crucial part of this site - namely the Rumor Mill - is going to stay. (I`d simply imply that Hannes wouldn`t be that stupid to sell MTGS to someone who`s going to shut down the thing that basically carries our traffic, because that`d be akin to capitulate conditionless to someone of whom you know he will shoot you dead after your conditionless capitulation.)
It`d be the most elegant way - put everything necessary on the table while calming everyone down, lest there`ll be bad rumors about the site that the Rumor Mill`s going to get shut down or stuff like that, just as it happened right now.
I have posted repeatedly that we did ask, and that multiple time we were told that it wasn't time yet since nothing was set in stone. There's a lot of discussions that needed to take place, one of which was between Curse and WotC to mend the relationship between us and WotC.
Again, we did ask. We were told not to say anything, so we stayed quiet.
Then it`s clearly the buyers fault to not release information earlier on.
Must it always take a major dramabomb & scandal before information reaches the wider public?
No, all it'd take is to respect the wishes of the site's owner and potential buyers, and not publicize the information you've wrongly received, and letting the staff post complete information when they do have it.
I did not say that it is okay to make that info public; rather, that it is poorly handled by the buyer to not release this information earlier, because the risk of a leak usually raises with the time you`re trying to held information confidential.
Also, a pre-emptive 'strike' that`ll clear all doubts is still better than the mess we`re currently in, namely, that the false rumor got us first.
If you reveal your hand before the rumors start brewing, you wouldn`t be in a situation like the one we`re currently in.
That`s all.
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"Petals within petals within petals, tadpole. The truth lurks below an opulence of illusion."
—Neerdiv, fallowsage
Also, a pre-emptive 'strike' that`ll clear all doubts is still better than the mess we`re currently in, namely, that the false rumor got us first.
If you reveal your hand before the rumors start brewing, you wouldn`t be in a situation like the one we`re currently in.
You are right about that. With hindsight, it would clearly have been better if the staff had posted some information prior to the events two days ago, but it's not easy to predict what's going to happen, and had not an unknown staff member leaked incomplete information to kpaca on Friday, this wouldn't have happened at all (not to mention the initial leak to N_S). In the end, it's a matter of trust. We trusted staff to not leak (maybe naively so), and we trusted the Gutter to keep quiet about it after Nai had explained the situation. This was because it'd be much better for the site if 1) the discussions surrounding the sale could go on uninterrupted by speculation and inevitable prophecies of doom, or worse, actual sabotaging of the deal because it didn't look like the end result would be in their favor, and 2) if the staff could announce it when it had all the answers, all the pieces were put together, and there would be absolutely no doubts as to what would happen to various parts of the forum.
Now, clearly a serious leak would undermine all of this, and in the end, our decision was based on trust. Because as members of the site, it's in our best interest to make this go as smooth as possible, because the sale to Curse is probably going to be an awesome thing for MtG Salvation.
Edit: I should say that for a long time, all the Gutter members "in the know" completely respected our request, and my thanks to those of you who knew and kept quiet for this long. This includes former staff too.
The trust will work, at least for a certain amount of time.
As I have written, the risk of getting a leak is increasing with every day passed; in fact, after the initial NS leak (which was mitigated fairly well, tbh), we had about 45 days of silence, but apparently, nobody capitalized out of this time (it`d been possible to prepare make a preemptive strike after the initial leak, which didn`t do much damage at all, and would`ve been wise to do so, in fact) that was given to us.
We`ve been warned, and did not heed the warning.
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"Petals within petals within petals, tadpole. The truth lurks below an opulence of illusion."
—Neerdiv, fallowsage
One of the issues that hasn't really been brought up is now the Gutter has no moderators, making it the Wild West of MTGS.
As usual, I happen to agree with Sene, except for one thing. I remember while lurking reading multiple posts between Teia and other gutter regulars openly talking about the sale in TBGTE. This was after (N_S) was banned. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that have violated the gag as well?
You are right about that. With hindsight, it would clearly have been better if the staff had posted some information prior to the events two days ago, but it's not easy to predict what's going to happen, and had not an unknown staff member leaked incomplete information to kpaca on Friday, this wouldn't have happened at all (not to mention the initial leak to N_S). In the end, it's a matter of trust. We trusted staff to not leak (maybe naively so), and we trusted the Gutter to keep quiet about it after Nai had explained the situation. This was because it'd be much better for the site if 1) the discussions surrounding the sale could go on uninterrupted by speculation and inevitable prophecies of doom, or worse, actual sabotaging of the deal because it didn't look like the end result would be in their favor, and 2) if the staff could announce it when it had all the answers, all the pieces were put together, and there would be absolutely no doubts as to what would happen to various parts of the forum.
Do you have any reason to believe that the leak came from a staff member here, as opposed to someone who knew from the Curse side?
As usual, I happen to agree with Sene, except for one thing. I remember while lurking reading multiple posts between Teia and other gutter regulars openly talking about the sale in TBGTE. This was after (N_S) was banned. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that have violated the gag as well?
Hmm. I can't really say anything for sure about this, as I removed my Gutter access at the same time as I demoted myself, and therefore can't see TBGTE to confirm/deny.
But if I were to make a guess, I'd say that the posts you're talking about happened around the same time as when Nai posted the wall of red text and explained the situation, and that Teia was running damage control.
Like I said though, I can't tell for sure.
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Do you have any reason to believe that the leak came from a staff member here, as opposed to someone who knew from the Curse side?
In regards to the leak to N_S, we have every reason to believe it although it's not fact, but in regards to the leak to kpaca, it's as good as fact. The reason for that is that it was a misunderstanding between us and Curse regarding Gutter, and that created some amount of drama in the Mod Lounge. Kpaca posted to Pegs not long after this discussion, and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind, at least, that it was because he had heard rumors (at the very least) about the ML discussion, and probably thought Curse meant the end to the Gutter, and that the admins had to go abandon the negotiations we'd worked on for a long time.
Hmm. I can't really say anything for sure about this, as I removed my Gutter access at the same time as I demoted myself, and therefore can't see TBGTE to confirm/deny.
If the Gutter had a mod, I'm sure he/she would love to let you in to confirm/deny
If the sensitive information is thought to potentially jeopardize the sale of the site, it is within the owner's full right to ban the members.
The keyword there is Owner. But the Owner did not do this. In fact the staff have yet to mention whether the Owner even knows about what is going on. Or whether or not the gag order was a directive from him or just something they decided to enact themselves.
In that case, how did the scg thread provide any more proof than what was already common knowledge in gutter?
That's what I'm not seeing. Like, I'm fully with you on the bans (in most cases) being unreasonable. I just don't see how a totally uncorroborated post (that, lets be honest, could have been posted by a sky-is-falling, rumormongering gutter member) is proof that the information was public.
We originally just knew that there was a possibility the site was being sold. The SCG article gave us a more clear picture of to whom and when, etc.
Whether or not in the end how much of it was true or not really didnt matter as perception is everything and because the staff refused to confirm or deny anything we had to go with our first perceptions.
The gag order was to prevent damage to the site's reputation and value through wild supposition and rumour. This could realistically have jeopardized the sale, which is a very serious matter. Remember, we're talking about a business transaction here, which is something taken extremely seriously. The staff couldn't afford to play softball in this case due to the potential liability from condoning information leaks. Even if something was posted off-site, that has no official bearing on how the administration handles leaks on-site, which in this case could still cause very real damage. A gag order backed up by banning offenders may seem extreme compared to day-to-day moderation, but given the circumstances, it was necessary.
And yet the actions following the gag order to stop theoretical damage have in fact done more damage then having open dialogue. And if think that the banning of several long time prominent members of the community and the fact that several more are on the verge of exodus is not damaging then you need to reevaluate the situation with a clearer mind.
That amounts to an official moderator request, with reasons posted. Obviously, for some time this was seen as reasonable, as there was no argument until further information regarding possible gutter closure was leaked.
Done in a thread that gets so many posts a day it would have been buried after just a few hours. I am not saying this happened but who is to say that the users in question even saw that post?
And in fact later in that thread Nai said that we would probably be the first to know concerning the ownership change of hands. So when one of our (I'll admit hotheaded and vocal) members found out about it on a 3rd party site I think you can see why he would be justifiably angry. Hell I'm half glad he found it before I did. Other wise I would be the one sitting here with a ban.
kpaca thought it would be fine to post in the Staff-Gutter area because the Gutter already knew. Granted, when he reposted, it was set in stone, but if Staff has engaged him instead of trying to silence him, none of this would have happened.
QFT.
Where Kpaca originally posted it was in an area that only people(staff and gutterites) that already knew of the possibility of sale could read it. It had absolutely no effect on the forum as a whole. But instead of speaking openly about it the staff chose to attempt a police state style of gag order followed by executions of those dissidents willing to speak out.
Please show me where in the rules it states that you cannot talk about the future of MTGS?
When a moderator requests that you do not.
The keyword there is Owner. But the Owner did not do this. In fact the staff have yet to mention whether the Owner even knows about what is going on. Or whether or not the gag order was a directive from him or just something they decided to enact themselves.
The owner puts it in the admins hands to handle day to day activities
We originally just knew that there was a possibility the site was being sold. The SCG article gave us a more clear picture of to whom and when, etc.
Whether or not in the end how much of it was true or not really didnt matter as perception is everything and because the staff refused to confirm or deny anything we had to go with our first perceptions.
I guess I can understand that. I disagree with your course of actions, but I am at least able to understand the underlying reasons for them, which is progress
And yet the actions following the gag order to stop theoretical damage have in fact done more damage then having open dialogue. And if think that the banning of several long time prominent members of the community and the fact that several more are on the verge of exodus is not damaging then you need to reevaluate the situation with a clearer mind.
I completely agree with this (and I think I've expressed such sentiments already)
Done in a thread that gets so many posts a day it would have been buried after just a few hours. I am not saying this happened but who is to say that the users in question even saw that post?
And in fact later in that thread Nai said that we would probably be the first to know concerning the ownership change of hands. So when one of our (I'll admit hotheaded and vocal) members found out about it on a 3rd party site I think you can see why he would be justifiably angry. Hell I'm half glad he found it before I did. Other wise I would be the one sitting here with a ban.
I wasn't there, so I'll take your word, and yes I can. I might have handled it differently, but then its kpaca, and we do handle things differently
QFT.
Where Kpaca originally posted it was in an area that only people(staff and gutterites) that already knew of the possibility of sale could read it. It had absolutely no effect on the forum as a whole. But instead of speaking openly about it the staff chose to attempt a police state style of gag order followed by executions of those dissidents willing to speak out.
Nai or sene (I cant recall which, I think it was sene) addressed this. Basically, the gag order extended to gutter because there are a large number of lurkers there, and many members who are less outspoken and well known then the group you are a member of. It was damage control to hide the leak from those members, the ones seen as less trustworthy than you all.
The Gag order was in general, because we simply didn't know things. This was a month ago, and the deal was basically in its infancy. I hadn't had a chance to talk to Curse directly myself. Ria had a chat with them at the time for tech-related things, and I think Viperesque had a talk with them back then too. But very little information was out.
We left the gag order generalized specifically because there are a lot of people in the Gutter that just lurk. The Gutter has a lot of very intelligent people, people who realized how bad it could be to release this information. But there are a lot of lurkers, a lot of accounts that have 'names but not faces', if you follow me. The gag order was mainly to keep it out of their hands. I did as much as I could to silence it fast so that way it wouldn't get to those with loose lips.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
Where Kpaca originally posted it was in an area that only people(staff and gutterites) that already knew of the possibility of sale could read it. It had absolutely no effect on the forum as a whole. But instead of speaking openly about it the staff chose to attempt a police state style of gag order followed by executions of those dissidents willing to speak out.
comparing forum posters complaining about the potential closure of their private clubhouse built on property that's not even theirs to government sanctioned executions?
Do I need to quote for you the messages that have been posted by Nai and Sene about the gag order? Or the portion of the rules that says that disobeying a reasonable request is grounds for automatic Suspension?
Or can you handle that by yourself?
When we see evidence DID see a PM warning and, knowing the consequences, disobeyed that warning, I'll agree with you. But the fact is the evidence points to the possibility that kpaca never saw this warning or received it after the offending post was already out there.
That's not even including the fact that the request is unreasonable as the information was already circulated and well known in their circles by this point. Going all Gestapo was obviously the wrong way to handle it.
Again, he did this in an area where everyone already knew what was going on, so no damage was done at all. More damaging was the actions taken by the moderators that led to baseless speculation being posted to reddit. If they had allowed open discussions, none of this would have happened.
If the business deal was so important to keep under wraps, maybe the original mod discussion leaker should be punished and not just users the moderators don't like.
What is damaging to the site is moderators who refuse to admit they've made mistakes and defends their mistakes despite evidence showing their actions have been damaging, far more than anything the banned users did.
When we see evidence DID see a PM warning and, knowing the consequences, disobeyed that warning, I'll agree with you. But the fact is the evidence points to the possibility that kpaca never saw this warning or received it after the offending post was already out there.
It is my understanding that the gag order was well understood. Furthermore, N_S was banned for leaking info over a month ago, and clearly any reasonable person could see the gravity of attempting to leak that same info again.
It is my understanding that the gag order was well understood. Furthermore, N_S was banned for leaking info over a month ago, and clearly any reasonable person could see the gravity of attempting to leak that same info again.
Even if the information becomes public knowledge outside their sphere of influence? That's some North Korean policy making right there.
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I was not - I joined this site only two months ago, and while I have been lurking on and off for the better part of two years, it would be a lie to say that I am aware of the Raa and S_S situation apart from what I have heard thirdhand regarding the MTGNews thread currently active here in CI.
The point I am making is with regard to the Streisand Effect - once you start trying to quash rumors and dissent about something, that fosters more of the very same fear and resentment that you are hoping to stifle, but now with the added fear that by the very fact the administration is trying to stop discussion, there is inherently something that needs to be quashed. What that something is will be filled in by the imaginations of the reader, including many of the things that have previously been mentioned. (site shutdown, mod overhaul, rumor mill closure, etc.)
As they say, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions", and while I have no reason to believe that the MTGS is headed to Hell after this discussion and statements by the staff, I did in the period between the leak in CI that was quickly shut down and the time there was an official thread / announcement on the matter.
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This will probably be my last post on this subject for a while, but I just want to say this.
I find the gag order issued to be disgusting. It's one thing to tell staff members or former staff members not to talk about it, but to threaten regular members with punishment for talking about something they have every right to talk about is something that I cannot tolerate.
What the staff did here was censorship and suppression. I might, as people have pointed out, not have a right to free speech on this site, but by God as my witness I will fight and expect that I and my fellow members have free speech.
Once the leak occurred the damage was already done. Putting in a gag order was just oppressing the innocent. Before anyone asks, sure they might not be innocent of other things, but in this case they were innocents given knowledge and then told telling others that knowledge would get them punished.
Maybe there was a better course of action or maybe no course of action would've prevented people from speculating and leaving, but the gag order was not the right answer. Sometimes you have to man up and accept that **** happens and take the punch on the chin. Having people leave the site is always a risk in these types of instants. So is the deal falling through. But damage control is not pretending the damage never happened.
You're not going to ban yourself formposting about the sale, so why ban kpaca? That's great and all, but you're forgetting that you confirmed a possible sale. While posting in the gutter. It wasn't a secret at all if you were following the only relevant gutter thread. In fact, if I recall correctly, you said something along the lines of "you guys are chill, so be cool." There was no statement that disscusion of the possible sale should be stopped in the gutter. Basically you said everything that you claim to know except the actual site curse.com. At that point anyone who had the slightest inkling of curiosity could have found out who the potential buyer was. I knew and I knew that everyone else knew. I didn't talk about it because there was nothing to say. kpaca got some bad info and posted about the sale where only mods and people who could view your post confirming the rumor could see it. Was it really that bad to put a name to the face? kpaca was only trying to find out what was really going on, albeit in his own way.
Granted, knee-jerk reactions are common place in internet communities.
(Also known as Xenphire)
All I will say is that everything that has happened is wrong.
LOL
And apparently he kept thinking that even after his post was deleted by an admin. I don't buy it.
To re-post from ER's helpdesk:
The posts kpaca posted weren't questions, or invited discussion in any way. They were hostile attacks based on incorrect information he had been leaked from the mod lounge (with 99% certainty).
Edit:
No, posts 2&3 were deleted at the same time.
I think it would`ve been reasonable to ask the potential buyer to post a statement that the site`s gonna get sold (not to whom, mind you), and that the, by far, most crucial part of this site - namely the Rumor Mill - is going to stay. (I`d simply imply that Hannes wouldn`t be that stupid to sell MTGS to someone who`s going to shut down the thing that basically carries our traffic, because that`d be akin to capitulate conditionless to someone of whom you know he will shoot you dead after your conditionless capitulation.)
It`d be the most elegant way - put everything necessary on the table while calming everyone down, lest there`ll be bad rumors about the site that the Rumor Mill`s going to get shut down or stuff like that, just as it happened right now.
—Neerdiv, fallowsage
I have posted repeatedly that we did ask, and that multiple time we were told that it wasn't time yet since nothing was set in stone. There's a lot of discussions that needed to take place, one of which was between Curse and WotC to mend the relationship between us and WotC.
Again, we did ask. We were told not to say anything, so we stayed quiet.
My helpdesk should you need me.
Must it always take a major dramabomb & scandal before information reaches the wider public?
—Neerdiv, fallowsage
No, all it'd take is to respect the wishes of the site's owner and potential buyers, and not publicize the information you've wrongly received, and letting the staff post complete information when they do have it.
Also, a pre-emptive 'strike' that`ll clear all doubts is still better than the mess we`re currently in, namely, that the false rumor got us first.
If you reveal your hand before the rumors start brewing, you wouldn`t be in a situation like the one we`re currently in.
That`s all.
—Neerdiv, fallowsage
You are right about that. With hindsight, it would clearly have been better if the staff had posted some information prior to the events two days ago, but it's not easy to predict what's going to happen, and had not an unknown staff member leaked incomplete information to kpaca on Friday, this wouldn't have happened at all (not to mention the initial leak to N_S). In the end, it's a matter of trust. We trusted staff to not leak (maybe naively so), and we trusted the Gutter to keep quiet about it after Nai had explained the situation. This was because it'd be much better for the site if 1) the discussions surrounding the sale could go on uninterrupted by speculation and inevitable prophecies of doom, or worse, actual sabotaging of the deal because it didn't look like the end result would be in their favor, and 2) if the staff could announce it when it had all the answers, all the pieces were put together, and there would be absolutely no doubts as to what would happen to various parts of the forum.
Now, clearly a serious leak would undermine all of this, and in the end, our decision was based on trust. Because as members of the site, it's in our best interest to make this go as smooth as possible, because the sale to Curse is probably going to be an awesome thing for MtG Salvation.
Edit: I should say that for a long time, all the Gutter members "in the know" completely respected our request, and my thanks to those of you who knew and kept quiet for this long. This includes former staff too.
As I have written, the risk of getting a leak is increasing with every day passed; in fact, after the initial NS leak (which was mitigated fairly well, tbh), we had about 45 days of silence, but apparently, nobody capitalized out of this time (it`d been possible to prepare make a preemptive strike after the initial leak, which didn`t do much damage at all, and would`ve been wise to do so, in fact) that was given to us.
We`ve been warned, and did not heed the warning.
—Neerdiv, fallowsage
As usual, I happen to agree with Sene, except for one thing. I remember while lurking reading multiple posts between Teia and other gutter regulars openly talking about the sale in TBGTE. This was after (N_S) was banned. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that have violated the gag as well?
EDIT:
also this crossed my mind.
scumbag
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Do you have any reason to believe that the leak came from a staff member here, as opposed to someone who knew from the Curse side?
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Hmm. I can't really say anything for sure about this, as I removed my Gutter access at the same time as I demoted myself, and therefore can't see TBGTE to confirm/deny.
But if I were to make a guess, I'd say that the posts you're talking about happened around the same time as when Nai posted the wall of red text and explained the situation, and that Teia was running damage control.
Like I said though, I can't tell for sure.
In regards to the leak to N_S, we have every reason to believe it although it's not fact, but in regards to the leak to kpaca, it's as good as fact. The reason for that is that it was a misunderstanding between us and Curse regarding Gutter, and that created some amount of drama in the Mod Lounge. Kpaca posted to Pegs not long after this discussion, and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind, at least, that it was because he had heard rumors (at the very least) about the ML discussion, and probably thought Curse meant the end to the Gutter, and that the admins had to go abandon the negotiations we'd worked on for a long time.
If the Gutter had a mod, I'm sure he/she would love to let you in to confirm/deny
My 360 Commons Cube
Your favorite MTG website
its 100% staff business, I was just kind of nudging the point along a bit more.
My 360 Commons Cube
Your favorite MTG website
Please show me where in the rules it states that you cannot talk about the future of MTGS?
The keyword there is Owner. But the Owner did not do this. In fact the staff have yet to mention whether the Owner even knows about what is going on. Or whether or not the gag order was a directive from him or just something they decided to enact themselves.
We originally just knew that there was a possibility the site was being sold. The SCG article gave us a more clear picture of to whom and when, etc.
Whether or not in the end how much of it was true or not really didnt matter as perception is everything and because the staff refused to confirm or deny anything we had to go with our first perceptions.
And yet the actions following the gag order to stop theoretical damage have in fact done more damage then having open dialogue. And if think that the banning of several long time prominent members of the community and the fact that several more are on the verge of exodus is not damaging then you need to reevaluate the situation with a clearer mind.
Done in a thread that gets so many posts a day it would have been buried after just a few hours. I am not saying this happened but who is to say that the users in question even saw that post?
And in fact later in that thread Nai said that we would probably be the first to know concerning the ownership change of hands. So when one of our (I'll admit hotheaded and vocal) members found out about it on a 3rd party site I think you can see why he would be justifiably angry. Hell I'm half glad he found it before I did. Other wise I would be the one sitting here with a ban.
QFT.
Where Kpaca originally posted it was in an area that only people(staff and gutterites) that already knew of the possibility of sale could read it. It had absolutely no effect on the forum as a whole. But instead of speaking openly about it the staff chose to attempt a police state style of gag order followed by executions of those dissidents willing to speak out.
The Family
When a moderator requests that you do not.
The owner puts it in the admins hands to handle day to day activities
I guess I can understand that. I disagree with your course of actions, but I am at least able to understand the underlying reasons for them, which is progress
I completely agree with this (and I think I've expressed such sentiments already)
I wasn't there, so I'll take your word, and yes I can. I might have handled it differently, but then its kpaca, and we do handle things differently
Nai or sene (I cant recall which, I think it was sene) addressed this. Basically, the gag order extended to gutter because there are a large number of lurkers there, and many members who are less outspoken and well known then the group you are a member of. It was damage control to hide the leak from those members, the ones seen as less trustworthy than you all.
EDIT:
It was nai apparently:
comparing forum posters complaining about the potential closure of their private clubhouse built on property that's not even theirs to government sanctioned executions?
get real. like seven strangers in a house real.
…( `\(o),,_/` ¯ : o : : : o `-, …. Beyond the hard times from now
have/want: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/80-quattros-trade-thread
When we see evidence DID see a PM warning and, knowing the consequences, disobeyed that warning, I'll agree with you. But the fact is the evidence points to the possibility that kpaca never saw this warning or received it after the offending post was already out there.
That's not even including the fact that the request is unreasonable as the information was already circulated and well known in their circles by this point. Going all Gestapo was obviously the wrong way to handle it.
Again, he did this in an area where everyone already knew what was going on, so no damage was done at all. More damaging was the actions taken by the moderators that led to baseless speculation being posted to reddit. If they had allowed open discussions, none of this would have happened.
If the business deal was so important to keep under wraps, maybe the original mod discussion leaker should be punished and not just users the moderators don't like.
What is damaging to the site is moderators who refuse to admit they've made mistakes and defends their mistakes despite evidence showing their actions have been damaging, far more than anything the banned users did.
It is my understanding that the gag order was well understood. Furthermore, N_S was banned for leaking info over a month ago, and clearly any reasonable person could see the gravity of attempting to leak that same info again.
Even if the information becomes public knowledge outside their sphere of influence? That's some North Korean policy making right there.