The only high profile players that I have heard of posting on Salvation are Patrick Chapin and Sene. No offense to Sene, but he's not exactly super well known. It is unlikely that I would remember how to pronounce his name (and I already sure as heck can't spell it from memory) if it weren't for the fact that he was in a tight race against a friend of mine for ROY nor the fact that I played against him in Nagoya.
Outside of that, I can think of no other high profile player that has anything to do with this site. Further, every good player that I know will ask why I insist on punishing myself by frequenting Salvation any time I mention a thread that interested me (for whatever reason, usually mind-boggling stupidity to be entirely honest- examples include horribly misinformed and wrong opinions that pop up in threads about decks that I like, such as the current Tempo Thresh thread... which is just... awful) to them.
I can honestly say that I don't know a person who has ever earned pro points that comes to MTGS. MTGS just doesn't have the stats they want and frankly it isn't a haven for top level theorycrafters and players. Then again, I don't know any pros who post on the official or SCG forums either. I will say that I have noticed that if a person is even semi-professional that they will try to write for Channel Fireball, SCG, Wizards, or even Pojo before coming here. I think the association with the old days of spoilers has tainted the well in that regard.
Salvation isn't known for being a golden community that harbors intelligent discussion. As I said earlier in this thread, for the most part Salvation is best known for consolidating spoilers better than other sites. Heck, with the way sets are spoiled these days StarCity isn't even very far behind Sally with preorders, so even this might be something that soon becomes a thing of the past (though it is true that currently spoiler season still drives a quite a bit of traffic, even if this traffic is people coming in to spam the rumor mill, traffic is still a good thing I guess).
Anyway, the overarching point is that Salvation already doesn't have a very good reputation for things that happen out in the open.
MTGS is MTG News with different mods and a new owner. We brought all the extra non-Magic baggage with us when we moved and we just have to live with it. I think MTGS could become a major player in the online Magic arena but more time, effort, and possibly money is needed.
Now I understand the "well report that surf" argument. But if a gutter member f'd off in the gutter the gutter deals with it. If he does so out side the gutter then; he needs to be reported and dealt with by the staff.
If the staff is shutting down the gutter for the behavior of the members outside the gutter then they to need address every problem on every forum the same way.
How are you going to accomplish this?
neither the staff or the bandwagon gutter haters have addressed this why is the gutter to blame for all the sites woes When IT'S ****ING OBVIOUS the site's non-gutter users are pretty good at making this place a **** hole.
Coming back to this thread to 'thank' and requote this post.
The 'problem' with MTGS has never been the gutter.
The problem is MTGS blaming the gutter for pointing out the obvious problems with posters in forum X. Rather than trying to fix or curb these kinds of posts, the gutter is labeled as 'trolls' or as 'flaming' and therefore ignored.
The forum doesn't get better when people accept that bad posting is 'okay'.
Edit:
The reason pros don't post here is because pros don't take anything on mtgs seriously.
Except the rumors.
Pros want to talk to pros, not a bunch of people who like turbofog and mill.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
That would defeat the entire purpose of this section.
Ok, you're right. It makes me sad when people accuse each others. As for me, I think that what happened was inevitable. If it was not me it might be someone else who would do the same thing.
I honestly don't want to participate in all this. I came here to be useful member of this forum and I don't see how I can be useful here.
Ok, you're right. It makes me sad when people accuse each others. As for me, I think that what happened was inevitable. If it was not me it might be someone else who would do the same thing.
I honestly don't want to participate in all this. I came here to be useful member of this forum and I don't see how I can be useful here.
And you win the thread. Thank you for being intelligent.
If yo ucan't be helpful, or have points t omake...why say anything? You make a valid point by saying you have valid points to make. I like it, very cool.
I would definitely consider worse that some mods were doing the same thing, commend Kijin and NS for apparently not being a part of it in there, and between this and the Kijin incident have actually come to agree with the calls for Ria to step down, but that in no way excuses such behavior on the Gutter's part, especially if the Gutterites want to think themselves superior to the average user, which is a very common thread among the posts in there and even the posts in here. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8595981&postcount=1429 PhantomS' reply here is a perfect example.
I don't think phantom is saying he's better than anyone, I think he has the same view I have that; the board isn't this great forum for conversation about magic strategies, cards, and non-magic issues. Just pop on into the rumor mill and check out what i mean. Or take a skip over into the standard forums and read some of the gems of advice the FNM pros hand out. Oh and to end your tour, be sure to drop on into the edh board and pop into the banlist thread.
He's not saying we're better than anyone, but that our "precieved" behavior is being misrepresented.
The gutter allows a small like minded community to have discussions with out the rule restraints, random spam, random comments, and all the other junk that is common on the site.
Edit: you loose the gutter you loose a lot of good posters who do contribute to other parts of the site. For instance I post a lot on the edh boards and have a lot of good e-Lation ships with many posters there. If the gutter closes, I doubt I keep posting on this site. This isn't a treat that you're all going to loose my witty banter, but since discovering and reading the gutter, it's going to be impossible to not have it.
It's like discovering bacon, then it being taken away.
I would definitely consider worse that some mods were doing the same thing, commend Kijin and NS for apparently not being a part of it in there, and between this and the Kijin incident have actually come to agree with the calls for Ria to step down, but that in no way excuses such behavior on the Gutter's part, especially if the Gutterites want to think themselves superior to the average user, which is a very common thread among the posts in there and even the posts in here. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8595981&postcount=1429 PhantomS' reply here is a perfect example.
Compare any of my posts that I randomly make in a "let's talk about..." thread to even the best posts in the rumor mill and it's obvious who is more informed between myself and the average poster. Are you honestly defending the quality of posts in the rumor mill? There's nothing elitist about positing that bad things are bad.
I can honestly say that I don't know a person who has ever earned pro points that comes to MTGS. MTGS just doesn't have the stats they want and frankly it isn't a haven for top level theorycrafters and players. Then again, I don't know any pros who post on the official or SCG forums either. I will say that I have noticed that if a person is even semi-professional that they will try to write for Channel Fireball, SCG, Wizards, or even Pojo before coming here. I think the association with the old days of spoilers has tainted the well in that regard.
MTGS is MTG News with different mods and a new owner. We brought all the extra non-Magic baggage with us when we moved and we just have to live with it. I think MTGS could become a major player in the online Magic arena but more time, effort, and possibly money is needed.
I have a few pro points, but I'm mostly just here for the gutter. The problem is that there is no way to have a meaningful discussion with a community this large, especially about something as complex as Magic. It's human nature to want to believe that we're good at everything, but the fact of the matter is that even a lot of players with a reasonable amount of success with the game just aren't that good. It's really hard for most to accept that they struggle with a children's card game.
neither the staff or the bandwagon gutter haters have addressed this why is the gutter to blame for all the sites woes When IT'S ****ING OBVIOUS the site's non-gutter users are pretty good at making this place a **** hole.
The gutter is not being closed because it is to blame for all the site's woes. If you think there are problems with other subforums, bring them forward and argue that case with regard to that subforum. Doing so would probably be most effective in a separate thread. If you think that the Gutter as a problem should not be addressed until every single problem is addressed simultaneously, I'm afraid that's not really reasonable.
The gutter is not being closed because it is to blame for all the site's woes. If you think there are problems with other subforums, bring them forward and argue that case with regard to that subforum. Doing so would probably be most effective in a separate thread. If you think that the Gutter as a problem should not be addressed until every single problem is addressed simultaneously, I'm afraid that's not really reasonable.
Please explain how it makes sense to make the gutter a priority while there are bigger problems with the site that are readily visible to any user while nobody would ever have heard of the gutter were it not for threads like this?
It might not be trolling if they can't see it, but just because the targets of the Gutter's scorn can't see it, doesn't mean it's not bullying and it doesn't mean it's okay for the administration to foster it. For all the accusations of childishness being flung at the Gutter's opponents, for all the charges of hypocrisy, with varying merit, being flung around, the Gutter community really needs to take a step back and consider the virtues of what they are doing when they fight so hard to defend their right to snicker at other people behind their backs, because THAT is truly childish.
Emphasis mine.
I'm quoting this because it's one of the most important points of the thread.
Would anyone here consider it not bullying if children at a certain lunch table at school spent their time insulting and making fun of another student as long as that other student didn't find out about it? The gutter is a place for bullying even if not everyone can see it. Why would the administration foster this or reach any sort of compromise on such a matter?
I've found value in a lot of the posts from the Gutterites and their supporters, but at this point I'm sick to death of hearing "you're ignorant" "shut up, the adults are talking" "stop posting," "nothing you say is valid," "you're lying" with no attempt to prove why, etc.
A lot of this, at least in my case, comes from the rule prohibiting Gutter content from being reposted outside the Gutter. There are any number of posts I'd like to be able to point to, but can't. Although for a lot of them, I'm going to say that, honestly, establishing the necessary context would be more trouble than it's worth.
For all the accusations of childishness being flung at the Gutter's opponents, for all the charges of hypocrisy, with varying merit, being flung around, the Gutter community really needs to take a step back and consider the virtues of what they are doing when they fight so hard to defend their right to snicker at other people behind their backs, because THAT is truly childish.
I'd argue that they aren't so different from the "complain about bad players at your LGS" threads that pop up from time to time in Magic General. People are always going to heap scorn upon those they don't like behind their backs. That's just human nature. As far as that goes, the Gutter is simply a cathartic output, not meant to harm others but to give its members a place to blow off steam. It might not be the most noble use of the Gutter, but I'd argue it's not really a harmful one.
I'll admit that in all the examples I've seen where this was the case, the Gutterites were actually in the right, but when it only happens if your homeboys are threatened or the perpetrator was already in your sights due to past personal grievances, then at that point, it's not checks and balances, it's gang warfare, and you should stop wearing it as a feather in your cap.
That sounds like a perception thing. An issue isn't going to be raised in the Gutter if no members see the issue to raise it.
I'm quoting this because it's one of the most important points of the thread.
Would anyone here consider it not bullying if children at a certain lunch table at school spent their time insulting and making fun of another student as long as that other student didn't find out about it? The gutter is a place for bullying even if not everyone can see it. Why would the administration foster this or reach any sort of compromise on such a matter?
Uhhhhhhh, that post is just somebody failing to define bullying the same way that the majority of people do.
Bullying is a confrontational thing. Bullying is very close to trolling, really. Generally it's more forward.
You could make the case that it's bullying in the situation where talking about someone behind their back starts convincing everyone to be mean to that person, but the Gutter doesn't really do that so it's a moot point.
You could make the case that it's bullying in the situation where talking about someone behind their back starts convincing everyone to be mean to that person, but the Gutter doesn't really do that so it's a moot point.
Exactly. The days of coordinated attacks are long past, and for the most part gutter members don't leave the gutter.
OK guys, here’s the promised post. You’ll see why I couldn’t to that from my phone. And before I begin, this is a summary, so it is obvious that some of the things I say in here have been said already. I recommend reading this post to understand where I'm coming from.
The last closure of the Gutter and its outcome
I’ll begin with what to me marks the beginning of a new (and last?) Gutter era. The Azrael era, if you will. After what at the time was TBCITE, the decision to reopen the Gutter was made by the administrators in office. The following post not only announces the reopening of the Gutter, but also states the compromise between the site’s administration and the community of MTGS members who post in the Gutter:
After extensive discussion regarding the reasons behind closing the gutter and how to prevent such things from becoming an issue in the future, the decision has been made to reopen the gutter. In an effort to avoid conflict in the future and to facilitate channels for communication between staff, gutter members and other users, we are going to be enacting a few changes.
First, as has been discussed in the past, a forum will be created where gutter members and members of the general staff can discuss issues that relate to both. It will be a place that issues that gutter members have with individual staff members or moderator actions that have already passed through the formal appeal process will be discussed in this forum. This does two things, it provides a safe haven for gutter users to air their grievances without fear of repercussions, and it creates a space where the staff can readily address and view said grievances. We are creating this area with the goal of fostering communications and providing a more appropriate place for the types of discussions that have been taking place in helpdesks and Community Issues and have led to previous issues.
Second, along with the added influence this forum would bring, there will also be an added level of accountability for gutter members. While temporary gutter bans will remain in effect for individual infractions, gutter members found to be engaging in behavior such as flaming or trolling on the main forum, especially in relation to moderator actions that will now belong in the newly created subforum, will be subject to extended or permanent gutter bans based on the offense. We want to be clear that the use of the Gutter is a privilege afforded to the gutter members by the guttermods, and by the staff as a whole. We simply ask that that privilege be treated with the respect that it deserves. Rest assured, revoking of that privilege will be taking place on an individual basis. Unless something drastic happens, we do not intend to close the gutter or punish it members, rather, we intend to revoke the privilege of that forum to those that abuse it.
The goal of these changes is to allow the gutter to be reopened and operate as intended while increasing communication and accountability for all involved. Thank you all for your patience as we sorted through this situation.
Since bolding and highlighting are not enough, let me reiterate the following sentence: "Rest assured, revoking of that privilege will be taking place on an individual basis. Unless something drastic happens, we do not intend to close the gutter or punish it members, rather, we intend to revoke the privilege of that forum to those that abuse it". Yukora further expanded the consensus reached by the administrators:
You cans till do that, in the helpdesks or CI forum as has always been done.
We're taking the direction we are in an attempt to curve the main-forum presence of the gutter where tensions between staff and some gutter members have grown due to repeated butting of heads. With this new forum, that tension between the staff and gutter members will hopefully be alleviated as there will be a designated place for such discussion to take place.
Reall, it's an effort to prevent some staff members from feeling like they're getting publicly ganged up on by members of the gutter usergroup, and it provides those same members with a clear-cut area to have their voices heard without fear of staff retaliation. This is an effort to cut down on tension and drama rather than trying to alienate non-gutter users.
As for why we are keeping this subforum to just gutter posters and staff members, throughout the course of the previous thread regarding this issue, it became blatantly apparent that detractors of the gutter will use any opportunity they can find to try and stir up issues about the gutter. Keeping this forum private will allow the gutter users to air their grievances without risk of back-and-forth bouts with their detractors. This is what would often result in moderator actions against gutter members, and would only further cause a rift between staff and gutter users. Again, we arrived at the conclusion that we did in an attempt to facilitate communication and remove sources of drama, which ultimately makes everyone's life easier and makes these forums better for everyone.
We will still be listening to user's complaints about the moderating staff and discussing any moderation or issues that may come up on these boards with any user that may have them. This can be done publicly via helpdesks or privately via messages.
As for the permanent gutterbans, no one has to worry about them as long as you are following the forum rules. If you become a gutter member, we ask that you treat that privilege with respect and responsibility.
For those of you who are wondering why we are reopening the gutter, it has a lot to do with the fact that we are not interested in removing features from these forums that users enjoy unless they are a clear detriment to the site. The gutter itself is not a detriment to the site. Some have, in both past and present, abused that privilege, and those few bad apples have given the forum a bad name in many people's eyes. However, the forum itself is not an issue, it is the behavior of some of its members. We are taking the stance that we are going to handle abuse of this privilege on an individual basis, but we do not want to enact stricter standards without providing a means of rebuttal as we are providing with this new forum.
We apologize for the brouhaha this move caused while we sorted out what to do. Some members of the staff did not feel like our old system as providing the results that we desired, so the gutter was suspended while we sorted out what to do. Now, I can't reopen the gutter myself as I am rather technologically challenged by the admin interface, but it should be up and running as soon as someone who won't accidentally blow up the forum by pushing buttons signs on.
And lastly, Annorax describes here what users can expect from an invisible and opt-in forum:
By making it invisible and making viewing opt-in, anyone who sees it (including an uncensored thread title on the forum index) has no excuse for complaining publicly about being offended by anything in the gutter, including said uncensored thread titles that would appear on the forum index.
How the commitment and consensus reached was thrown overboard
The following group of people gathered to discuss a new closing of the Gutter (I'll note in parentheses what my perception was about their stance towards the Gutter during my time in the Mod Lounge):
rianalnn (Strongly against the Gutter) Sene (Ambivalent) viperesque (Against the Gutter, but I didn't notice that entirely until after this situation)
Annorax (As the most experienced of the group, I will say "factual") Arcadic (More against than not) ExpiredRascals (Against the Gutter) Galspanic (Ambivalent) Moss_Elemental (I cannot say, but I don't recall an anti-Gutter attitude from him)
Only one of them was an administrator back in November (why did he "retire" again?). And the majority of them entered the discussion with a bias against the Gutter. I already mentioned how the decision to keep this at higher ranks hindered the ability of the regular staff to chime in on whether this course of action would impact the userbase negatively, or more accurately, to what degree, as prognosticated by Azrael in his PM to newer mods (including all of those who were Gutter members):
Quote from Azrael »
In sum, I'd encourage each of you to continue speaking your minds freely without undue regard to the rank of the participants in the conversation. If we lose that, we lose the most vital protection the userbase has from hasty decisions.
Would the outcome have been different if regular staff had been involved? Probably yes, probably no. The truth is that the opinions would have been more balanced. Several moderators who were "gutter-neutral" have argued both for and against the Gutter in the discussions I participated in. And in all of those discussions, the result was the same: "it's not fair to treat the Gutter members more harshly just because they are Gutter members".
Also, the Gutter-Staff Pegging Chamber was neglected and the reasons that have been stated for that can be tracked down to the moment when rianalnn cut all communications with the Gutter during the following conversation about the relocation of the Gutter to the bottom of the forum list:
if all goes well that is hopefully what will happen, i mean there is no reason for it to be down here any more and it just makes it more difficult for everyone
ria i ask you as an internet friend (like i assume we are i mean i have no beef with you not sure how you feel about me) but can you please put the gutter back in it's old place
Annorax moved it because he didn't want to see questionable thread titles up there. I'm not inclined to change it back, it made sense then & it still does.
If you're not a gutter member the forum is hidden. We only have one thread, practically. Annorax [Redacted to protect the sensitivities of some users].
I didn't know who did it as I only referred to the people that did it as "the staff" and it was in fact N_S who said it was you, so I not sure why you are being so hostile towards me (at least that is how I read it).
What reason is there for it being in the red zone now the penalty is gone? it was only at the top of the page for people who are members of the gutter as sinbad said and every member of the gutter preferred it that way, so why is having it somewhere else for literally no reason except "because we said so"?
If someone wants to be a member of the gutter they should be fine with having it at the top of the page, if not then they can just leave the group right?
Also whilst you are responding can you tell me if you have a problem with me or not? it seems the way you are acting that you do and I am not sure why since I have done nothing to really upset you as far as I know, care to enlighten me?
Well in all truth, I dunno who did it, I just assumed it was ria because this happened in conjunction with the creation of the speakeasy which has been his own mastermind.
I dunno what is so shocking about reading "lets paint some fences" 99% out of the time, and only for people who willingly joined the gutter so...
Actually there was exactly the same discussion a few years in the past when jdski made the same move.
The argument was exactly this. Putting the gutter at the bottom only served to piss of people, because people who didn't cared about the gutter wouldn't see it anyway, and people who cared was pissed off by having to scroll all the way down.
Oh hey, I gutterbanned Annorax a while ago, so he is pretty much safe from witnessing the presence of the gutter on top of the forums.
The only "unwilling victims" of the Gutter are now the three admins, and they already have their own hidden threads on top, so the gutter is probably hidden well enough.
After "/never posts in here again", rianalnn removed himself from the Gutter Member group. My opinion is that it was an overreaction and that he was indeed acting a lot more bitter after his return from "moral-compass seeking", which I attribute to the removal of the Gutter Penalty Box (hope you read the post I linked at the beginning).
As of July 1, the Gutter subforum will be retired. This was not an easy decision, but we believe it is the right one for the good of the site.
What is the Gutter?
The Gutter is a hidden group of subforums that is essentially unmoderated in the conventional sense. Infractions and the like have never been employed in the Gutter, although for a time an active infraction would preclude a user from participating in the subforum. Notorious for its culture of hazing and attracting members with rocky relationships with the staff, the Gutter historically served as a place where watchdog discussions relating to staff conduct could be had, in addition to its role as an exclusive-membership sandbox.
This bit is misrepresenting. While its contents are not necessarily inaccurate, it is clearly written with bias. I reproach the "attracting members with rocky relationships with the staff" bit, not only because former staff members have been active in the Gutter (Goblinboy, Kijin, {mikeyG}, etc.), the Azrael era brought several members of the Gutter into the staff, like ( N_S ), Madding, ein and Talore, but even because up until this was posted, I had good relationships with most of the staff (and hope I still keep most of them).
First is the issue of bullying. The Gutter has an entrenched culture of attacking, hazing, and bullying new or unwelcome members. Although “what happens in the Gutter stays in the Gutter,” any member of Salvation is fair game for a roasting within, whether they are a member of the subforum or not. MTGSalvation as a community aims to support a culture of tolerance, and the hostile culture of the Gutter is in direct opposition to this goal. While this has been an ongoing concern of the staff, certain events of the past months have brought this to the fore.
First was an incident discussed extensively here in Community Issues and in the Moderator Lounge, namely that we were slow to act when a potentially unstable member was getting verbally harassed. The staff considers this a very serious issue and we vowed to address it. As we worked to prevent a similar event from happening in the future, we became acutely aware of how closely tied cyberbullying has been to various suicides and school shootings. We then realized that the reality is that in most cases the repercussions of that negative culture will not be visible to us. We cannot not overlook the danger that the Gutter poses to people in real life. While there is no way to quantify the impact this has on a user, by allowing it a place to exist, the staff feel responsible for it.
The person who brought up the concern of slowness to act was then Staff Member and Gutter-Moderator Kijin. He did so with great sincerity and emotional investment, and the outcomes of that incident, especially his demotion and the banning of NavyJoe are well documented in other CI threads as well as the Moderator Lounge. Within the Gutter, he was reprimanded for not keeping a cool head, but when you put yourself in his shoes and what his beliefs are regarding the subject of cyber-bullying and school shootings, you can understand his level of outrage. It is only ironic that you were made aware of this cyber-bullying concern in great meassure by a gutterite, and are now using this as a reason to shut down the Gutter. This "danger that the Gutter poses to people in real life" is your perception and it's unacceptable to me that you cannot provide proof of this because of "member-staff confidentiality", when I would have expected that such evidence had been readily available to me while in the ML, and I never got a hint about such outcome of "Gutter actions".
Please take a look at the following "tutorial" in reference to the "entrenched culture of attacking, hazing, and bullying new or unwelcome members":
Step 1: Disregard the rules (i.e. start posting without having lurked first). You will be instantly told to shut up. The level of aggressiveness will depend on the contents of your post.
Step 2: Disregard a request to keep quiet. This is grounds for some harsher flaming against you.
Step 3: Engage in flaming/trolling of other Gutter members. Who in their right mind would think that this is a good idea to get accepted within a community? And don't even think about getting away with flaming a beloved member of the community (e.g. Manasjap) or it will be hell to pay.
That is it. At this point, you might no longer be found entertaining, and will definitely be g-banned.
After reading that tutorial, tell me again how someone who got "bullied" within the Gutter didn't just ask for it.
Second, while the problems associated with the gutter have risen to the forefront, the benefits of the subforum have diminished. With the formation of the Staff Inbox, the Ban Appeal Subforum, the implementation of a Staff Code of Conduct and a general push for increased professionalism from staff, the Gutter's role as a place for watchdog discussions has been marginalized.
Call it a language thing, but I dislike the word "watchdog". Anyway, the benefits of the Gutter have been acknowledged here, thank you very much, but I disagree with the statement that they have diminished. It is true that the Staff Inbox, the Ban Appeal Subforum, and the Staff CoC (which could use a new revision) are great implementations. However, when someone who is supposedly the main pusher of this professionalism mentioned there conducts himself unprofessionally, I simply cannot agree with that statement. When this announcement comes after months of speaking within the Gutter of this lack of professionalism and a CI thread was made with suggestions to tackle this (while not making any direct accusations), I cannot agree with that statement.
At the same time, Gutter members at all levels have shown that they will not report fellow gutter members for suspension evasion and the like, while attacking whichever senior staff member is chosen to watch over the subforum. This creates a situation contributing to staff burnout and increased rule-breaking rather than the beneficial role that Gutter members would previously claim. The staff is thus left in an uncomfortable position where we cannot properly monitor the forum without drawing extreme levels of hostility.
I would like to ask for some evidence of Gutter members evading evasions and bans. And please don't bring up MIKE "HUNT" FLORES, since it has been proved that only g_c knew about him, and he actually got a harsher punishment than warranted (his banning, which was overturned later). If this is about g-suspensions (also later overturned due to their unfairness) and I think it is, I must say that no one in the Gutter attempted to hide the fact that some users were using gimmicks to bypass their unfair g-suspensions during a difficult time. And it is exactly because those g-suspensions had to be evaded in order to have an urging discussion and because banning the members involved was being discussed, that the Penalty Box was removed (again, refer to the "Story of GR and the Gutter" link). Bringing this up now as a reason to close the Gutter holds no water.
Furthermore, has the senior staff considered that their inability to "properly monitor the forum without drawing extreme levels of hostility" may have its roots in the way you run things, make decisions and/or the way you communicate them? (this very thread, case in point)
Again, this is not an action we take lightly.
We will try to answer and address your concerns and help dispel any lingering uncertainties you might have.
I hope this post is answered and addressed thoroughly. Thanks.
About telling people that they are "misinformed"
This happened in what used to be TBCITE as well. People coming without knowledge, jumping to conclusions and posting judgmental opinions based only on their previous experiences, not even related to the matter in question. This time, this was worsened by a very misrepresenting OP, as exposed above. As others have said, all these perhaps good-intended opinions only clutter a thread and introduce noise to the communication that the Gutter members are trying to have with the Staff as to the circumstances in which this decision was made. I would have recommended the approach I took in November: see for yourself before saying what may be considered nonsense by people who actually know what they're talking about.
I personally apologize to any members I may have affronted in the course of this discussion.
The following question was posed by an anonymous user to the staff:
Can the Gutter show and prove how over the past 7 years it's presence has enhanced and promoted MTGS site and the MTGS "community" as a whole in a positive light that encourages participation by individuals, families and other entities affiliated with the game whether it be on a casual or professional level and how a continued presence of the Gutter would be of future benefit to the site?
i think it is an interesting question to have answered and I would appreciate some commentary on this from members of the gutter.
I believe that this has been answered by quotes I posted here by no other than Yukora and Viperesque. Like I said once in the Mod Lounge, the Gutter is Sally's QA. The culture of the Gutter is all about post quality. It has helped bring out the real personalities of the DC's, TS's and m0's. It has pointed out the mistakes of the moderators and administrators. It has pointed out the risks of certain threads. All this has been accomplished by the unique combination of a group of like-minded yet diverse individuals, freedom to express ideas and privacy. As I write this, a former administrator of this site has put it similarly:
The 'problem' with MTGS has never been the gutter.
The problem is MTGS blaming the gutter for pointing out the obvious problems with posters in forum X. Rather than trying to fix or curb these kinds of posts, the gutter is labeled as 'trolls' or as 'flaming' and therefore ignored.
The forum doesn't get better when people accept that bad posting is 'okay'.
About the "Times New Roman Monstrosity"
As mentioned by someone else, it's a cute post, with a preface and everything. What I get out of the post:
He acknowledges that he did not follow the rules of the Gutter once inside. He asked for it.
He says that his Helpdesk was dogpiled. I already covered the QA aspect of the Gutter.
His Gutter leaking point is hard to comprehend. Language barrier?
The "coordinated attacks" are a false conclusion. There are none, as pointed out already by other gutterites ITT. Sadly, many staff members believe this. I recall at least a couple of occasions when ExpiredRascals was even willing to infract otherwise non-infractable posts because of this belief.
About the Gutter being impossible to be "policed" effectively, that is not accurate. It's a community with well established leadership. If the channels of communication with said leadership were respected (and perhaps given their own set of rules) good Gutter-Staff relations are plausible. Kijin was a staff member for most of his time here. ( N_S ) was greatly admired within the Mod Lounge for the way he engaged in discussions (( N_S)4ADMIN, amirite?). And kpaca will tell you the truth to your face even if it hurts. If that is something the administrators cannot take without getting offended or bitter, then who's at fault?
The rest of his post has been addressed already by this "Verdana Monstrosity"
After reading through this entire thread, (and it took quite a long time) I've decided to give my thoughts, and before some of you anti-gutter people look, I am not a member of the gutter and do not know what goes on inside it nor do I claim to know (as how it should be with anyone who is not a member), and I am obviously not a gimmick, I've been here many years and participated in many things and threads this site has had...This is completely unbiased and third-party.
While this may (or may not) come to a surprise to some of you, I used to be so anti-gutter and hold grudges against a few of it's members for things they've done or thought they have done (a lot if not all unfounded truthfully), and I've been back for around two-three months now (I think, I may be wrong) and honestly what have they done? I don't visit every forum/subforum admittedly but I do in a few of them and I have not seen one gutter related incident in any of them since I've been back, that some of you are claiming they have done. The only gutter related drama I've seen is what has happened as a result of this thread being created, which was not made by a gutter member, and I honestly thought this thread came out of nowhere.
A lot of people are basicly claiming the gutter is the root of all evil on MTGSalvation or are at least trying to make it seem that way but I don't see it that way..at all. I used to mindlessly spam this forum day in and day out until they helped me move on. I'd come to MTGSalvation (along with other forums) and post non-stop until they stepped in. At first I was pretty angry and had an axe to grind against them, but after a while I found it funny and moved on. I got a job, got my own place, started dating, and am going back to school this fall to further my education instead of being a mindless, jobless spammer thanks to the gutter, so I thank all those back then that helped me, you've made a better person because of it, even if I didn't think so at the time....Taking that into account you want to shut down this place? I find that pretty bizarre and wrong.
tl;dr- The gutter hasn't done anything wrong that I have seen, so why don't we all be adults here (move on if you have a grudge ideally) and let them keep what they have? The gutter can do good too you know...
Then the arguing went on until the thread was locked.
That happens with every game where the staff or peoples in charge are speaking with the public. You should see MMORPG forums. Every time a class gets nerfed, thousands of them hit the forums to complain to the devs.
Whining is human. Is nothing new.
OMG This is amazing here:
Quote from papa_funk »
You're kidding, right? On the internet? Transparency is just more ammo for people who don't like decisions to complain about the process as well as the decisions.
Thank you for your answer. Can you describe this vision in detail?
The goal of the Senior Staff (a.k.a. - the visions of what we want the site to be) is to enhance and promote the MTGS site and the MTGS "community" as a whole in a positive light that encourages participation by individuals, families, and other entities affiliated with the game whether it be on a casual or professional level. This includes civility, tolerance, and staff professionalism in all parts of the site - not just the ones visible to the public.
The goal of the Senior Staff (a.k.a. - the visions of what we want the site to be) is to enhance and promote the MTGS site and the MTGS "community" as a whole in a positive light that encourages participation by individuals, families, and other entities affiliated with the game whether it be on a casual or professional level. This includes civility, tolerance, and staff professionalism in all parts of the site - not just the ones visible to the public.
Lol. I'm a political science major and I still think you guys are full of yourselves with this one. It's a nice try at a blanket statement that was written to answer our questions though.
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This was bound to happen. Two anti-Gutter admins and one ambivalent admin (Sene) means that the subforum’s time was borrowed. Rianalnn almost certainly raised this issue and pushed it until he got his way, as is his usual behavior. The golden days of Azrael are almost entirely abandoned, as Az himself seems to be realizing in this thread.
Notice how Viperesque in the OP uses phrases like “we vowed” and “culture of tolerance.” You’d think these statements came from some politician. And therein lies the rub: MTGS has become a “game of thrones,” where a Prince Joffery reigns supreme. Any dissenters are screamed at until they resign or shut up. Anyone else notice that the mod turnover rate is higher at all levels now than ever before?
The Gutter was the last thorn in Ria’s side. Sure, people can make the case that the Gutter “spilled out over onto the rest of the site.” However, the Gutter really only “spilled” into CI, and that’s what CI was designed for. The fact that the admins raised an anti-gutter case now, when the gutter has been silent for months, just shows that this was another one of Ria’s initiatives to turn the site into a “Mother Goose” sandbox, where everyone is totally homogenous in their love and acceptance of him. Play by his rules, or leave.
I was told about this thread a few days ago but didn’t post until now. I’ve been largely silent during most of Ria’s administration, because I knew that speaking out would only cause him to tear into my mod friends in private. Ask yourself, what does Rianalnn do besides rant in the modcave and post in CI? Last time he was active in clans he attacked several members without any type of empathy. Just look at his posts in this thread. Do they scream “This is a guy who is empathetic” or “This guy just wants to get his way at all costs?”
It’s a shame that Hannes isn’t active enough to see that his lead cheerleader and “man who whispers in his ear” is actually corrupt and totally On The Wrong Track (I’ll borrow Ria’s use of caps posting here.) Deleting clans posts, deleting CI posts, raging at clanmates over PM, limiting the outlets his detractors have for discourse, all of this points to a fundamentally off base leader. Will the mods do anything about this? Of course not. Even Ria’s “omg I leaked a post punish me” post in this thread will not bring about any true consequences. He is like a child firmly attached to the teat of MTGS.
Kraj and I resigned due to him, and I heavily believe Rax and Gal did as well. It’s hard to have a dialog with someone who can’t decenter (decentering is something most children learn at a young age.)
But hey, we can all take solace from the fact that Rianalnn can (and likely will) devote hours and days to completing his crusade and 99.9% of the mtgs community will never know. So let him run amok, Xander Cohen – Bioshock style; his kingdom exists only in his head. “Cultures of tolerance” and “vowing” sound poetic and all, but they don’t mean much on a site for card spoilers. So let the children have their playground. They’ve taken our toys, but at the cost of their time / patience / enjoyment of the site.
Most gutterites are cynical and we’ll live, this is just one more instance of a person combo-ing off due to a perceived “internet mandate.” Does the gutter getting closed suck at a practical level? Yes. Though it’s a fitting end to a great subforum (a subforum teasing manchildren ends up getting closed by …well…you know.)
So rock on, my friends. I’ll pop in in another three weeks to see if anything has changed.
I'd love to see someone address this and GR fwiw.
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Lol. I'm a political science major and I still think you guys are full of yourselves with this one. It's a nice try at a blanket statement that was written to answer our questions though.
It was in response to GR's request, but you know how it goes. You have all these ideas floating around in a few different places being talked about by a bunch of people and then you say, "Hey, I need to condense this so I can stay focused on the goals and not get distracted by the periphery." Filtering and refining ideas is not the same as post-rationalization or being full of ones self.
The goal of the Senior Staff (a.k.a. - the visions of what we want the site to be) is to enhance and promote the MTGS site and the MTGS "community" as a whole in a positive light that encourages participation by individuals, families, and other entities affiliated with the game whether it be on a casual or professional level. This includes civility, tolerance, and staff professionalism in all parts of the site - not just the ones visible to the public.
While this definitely sounds very nice, it ultimately doesn't mean anything. Breaking one part of the list (staff professionalism) in order to address what's ultimately a fringe problem is kind of backwards. Furthermore, the shortsighted focus on the Gutter (invisible and largely unknown to the public) before dealing with all the problems that truly ruin the site's reputation reeks of extraordinarily misplaced priorities. This brings down the image and reputation of the staff even further. Again to continue the old Romani metaphor, it's clearing out the insular and harmless Romani at the edge of the city while doing nothing about the inner-city turmoil, crime, violence, etc.
The goal of the Senior Staff (a.k.a. - the visions of what we want the site to be) is to enhance and promote the MTGS site and the MTGS "community" as a whole in a positive light that encourages participation by individuals, families, and other entities affiliated with the game whether it be on a casual or professional level. This includes civility, tolerance, and staff professionalism in all parts of the site - not just the ones visible to the public.
Does your desire to encourage participation by "individuals, families, and other entities" include those individuals, families, and other entities who are uncivil/intolerant?
I can honestly say that I don't know a person who has ever earned pro points that comes to MTGS. MTGS just doesn't have the stats they want and frankly it isn't a haven for top level theorycrafters and players. Then again, I don't know any pros who post on the official or SCG forums either. I will say that I have noticed that if a person is even semi-professional that they will try to write for Channel Fireball, SCG, Wizards, or even Pojo before coming here. I think the association with the old days of spoilers has tainted the well in that regard.
MTGS is MTG News with different mods and a new owner. We brought all the extra non-Magic baggage with us when we moved and we just have to live with it. I think MTGS could become a major player in the online Magic arena but more time, effort, and possibly money is needed.
Coming back to this thread to 'thank' and requote this post.
The 'problem' with MTGS has never been the gutter.
The problem is MTGS blaming the gutter for pointing out the obvious problems with posters in forum X. Rather than trying to fix or curb these kinds of posts, the gutter is labeled as 'trolls' or as 'flaming' and therefore ignored.
The forum doesn't get better when people accept that bad posting is 'okay'.
Edit:
The reason pros don't post here is because pros don't take anything on mtgs seriously.
Except the rumors.
Pros want to talk to pros, not a bunch of people who like turbofog and mill.
Twitter
Ok, you're right. It makes me sad when people accuse each others. As for me, I think that what happened was inevitable. If it was not me it might be someone else who would do the same thing.
I honestly don't want to participate in all this. I came here to be useful member of this forum and I don't see how I can be useful here.
And you win the thread. Thank you for being intelligent.
If yo ucan't be helpful, or have points t omake...why say anything? You make a valid point by saying you have valid points to make. I like it, very cool.
Done by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery signatures!
1. The people attacking you were not members of the gutter.
2. The one person sticking up from you was a member of the gutter.
Just wanted that to be perfectly clear.
I don't think phantom is saying he's better than anyone, I think he has the same view I have that; the board isn't this great forum for conversation about magic strategies, cards, and non-magic issues. Just pop on into the rumor mill and check out what i mean. Or take a skip over into the standard forums and read some of the gems of advice the FNM pros hand out. Oh and to end your tour, be sure to drop on into the edh board and pop into the banlist thread.
He's not saying we're better than anyone, but that our "precieved" behavior is being misrepresented.
The gutter allows a small like minded community to have discussions with out the rule restraints, random spam, random comments, and all the other junk that is common on the site.
Edit: you loose the gutter you loose a lot of good posters who do contribute to other parts of the site. For instance I post a lot on the edh boards and have a lot of good e-Lation ships with many posters there. If the gutter closes, I doubt I keep posting on this site. This isn't a treat that you're all going to loose my witty banter, but since discovering and reading the gutter, it's going to be impossible to not have it.
It's like discovering bacon, then it being taken away.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Compare any of my posts that I randomly make in a "let's talk about..." thread to even the best posts in the rumor mill and it's obvious who is more informed between myself and the average poster. Are you honestly defending the quality of posts in the rumor mill? There's nothing elitist about positing that bad things are bad.
/hypocrisy
I have a few pro points, but I'm mostly just here for the gutter. The problem is that there is no way to have a meaningful discussion with a community this large, especially about something as complex as Magic. It's human nature to want to believe that we're good at everything, but the fact of the matter is that even a lot of players with a reasonable amount of success with the game just aren't that good. It's really hard for most to accept that they struggle with a children's card game.
The gutter is not being closed because it is to blame for all the site's woes. If you think there are problems with other subforums, bring them forward and argue that case with regard to that subforum. Doing so would probably be most effective in a separate thread. If you think that the Gutter as a problem should not be addressed until every single problem is addressed simultaneously, I'm afraid that's not really reasonable.
Please explain how it makes sense to make the gutter a priority while there are bigger problems with the site that are readily visible to any user while nobody would ever have heard of the gutter were it not for threads like this?
Emphasis mine.
I'm quoting this because it's one of the most important points of the thread.
Would anyone here consider it not bullying if children at a certain lunch table at school spent their time insulting and making fun of another student as long as that other student didn't find out about it? The gutter is a place for bullying even if not everyone can see it. Why would the administration foster this or reach any sort of compromise on such a matter?
A lot of this, at least in my case, comes from the rule prohibiting Gutter content from being reposted outside the Gutter. There are any number of posts I'd like to be able to point to, but can't. Although for a lot of them, I'm going to say that, honestly, establishing the necessary context would be more trouble than it's worth.
I'd argue that they aren't so different from the "complain about bad players at your LGS" threads that pop up from time to time in Magic General. People are always going to heap scorn upon those they don't like behind their backs. That's just human nature. As far as that goes, the Gutter is simply a cathartic output, not meant to harm others but to give its members a place to blow off steam. It might not be the most noble use of the Gutter, but I'd argue it's not really a harmful one.
That sounds like a perception thing. An issue isn't going to be raised in the Gutter if no members see the issue to raise it.
Uhhhhhhh, that post is just somebody failing to define bullying the same way that the majority of people do.
Bullying is a confrontational thing. Bullying is very close to trolling, really. Generally it's more forward.
Gossiping is not bullying.
You could make the case that it's bullying in the situation where talking about someone behind their back starts convincing everyone to be mean to that person, but the Gutter doesn't really do that so it's a moot point.
Exactly. The days of coordinated attacks are long past, and for the most part gutter members don't leave the gutter.
The last closure of the Gutter and its outcome
I’ll begin with what to me marks the beginning of a new (and last?) Gutter era. The Azrael era, if you will. After what at the time was TBCITE, the decision to reopen the Gutter was made by the administrators in office. The following post not only announces the reopening of the Gutter, but also states the compromise between the site’s administration and the community of MTGS members who post in the Gutter:
Since bolding and highlighting are not enough, let me reiterate the following sentence: "Rest assured, revoking of that privilege will be taking place on an individual basis. Unless something drastic happens, we do not intend to close the gutter or punish it members, rather, we intend to revoke the privilege of that forum to those that abuse it". Yukora further expanded the consensus reached by the administrators:
And lastly, Annorax describes here what users can expect from an invisible and opt-in forum:
How the commitment and consensus reached was thrown overboard
The following group of people gathered to discuss a new closing of the Gutter (I'll note in parentheses what my perception was about their stance towards the Gutter during my time in the Mod Lounge):
rianalnn (Strongly against the Gutter)
Sene (Ambivalent)
viperesque (Against the Gutter, but I didn't notice that entirely until after this situation)
Annorax (As the most experienced of the group, I will say "factual")
Arcadic (More against than not)
ExpiredRascals (Against the Gutter)
Galspanic (Ambivalent)
Moss_Elemental (I cannot say, but I don't recall an anti-Gutter attitude from him)
Only one of them was an administrator back in November (why did he "retire" again?). And the majority of them entered the discussion with a bias against the Gutter. I already mentioned how the decision to keep this at higher ranks hindered the ability of the regular staff to chime in on whether this course of action would impact the userbase negatively, or more accurately, to what degree, as prognosticated by Azrael in his PM to newer mods (including all of those who were Gutter members):
Would the outcome have been different if regular staff had been involved? Probably yes, probably no. The truth is that the opinions would have been more balanced. Several moderators who were "gutter-neutral" have argued both for and against the Gutter in the discussions I participated in. And in all of those discussions, the result was the same: "it's not fair to treat the Gutter members more harshly just because they are Gutter members".
Also, the Gutter-Staff Pegging Chamber was neglected and the reasons that have been stated for that can be tracked down to the moment when rianalnn cut all communications with the Gutter during the following conversation about the relocation of the Gutter to the bottom of the forum list:
After "/never posts in here again", rianalnn removed himself from the Gutter Member group. My opinion is that it was an overreaction and that he was indeed acting a lot more bitter after his return from "moral-compass seeking", which I attribute to the removal of the Gutter Penalty Box (hope you read the post I linked at the beginning).
The public reasons that were given
Let's address the OP ITT more slowly:
This bit is misrepresenting. While its contents are not necessarily inaccurate, it is clearly written with bias. I reproach the "attracting members with rocky relationships with the staff" bit, not only because former staff members have been active in the Gutter (Goblinboy, Kijin, {mikeyG}, etc.), the Azrael era brought several members of the Gutter into the staff, like ( N_S ), Madding, ein and Talore, but even because up until this was posted, I had good relationships with most of the staff (and hope I still keep most of them).
OK then, let's see what these events are:
The person who brought up the concern of slowness to act was then Staff Member and Gutter-Moderator Kijin. He did so with great sincerity and emotional investment, and the outcomes of that incident, especially his demotion and the banning of NavyJoe are well documented in other CI threads as well as the Moderator Lounge. Within the Gutter, he was reprimanded for not keeping a cool head, but when you put yourself in his shoes and what his beliefs are regarding the subject of cyber-bullying and school shootings, you can understand his level of outrage. It is only ironic that you were made aware of this cyber-bullying concern in great meassure by a gutterite, and are now using this as a reason to shut down the Gutter. This "danger that the Gutter poses to people in real life" is your perception and it's unacceptable to me that you cannot provide proof of this because of "member-staff confidentiality", when I would have expected that such evidence had been readily available to me while in the ML, and I never got a hint about such outcome of "Gutter actions".
Please take a look at the following "tutorial" in reference to the "entrenched culture of attacking, hazing, and bullying new or unwelcome members":
That is it. At this point, you might no longer be found entertaining, and will definitely be g-banned.
After reading that tutorial, tell me again how someone who got "bullied" within the Gutter didn't just ask for it.
Call it a language thing, but I dislike the word "watchdog". Anyway, the benefits of the Gutter have been acknowledged here, thank you very much, but I disagree with the statement that they have diminished. It is true that the Staff Inbox, the Ban Appeal Subforum, and the Staff CoC (which could use a new revision) are great implementations. However, when someone who is supposedly the main pusher of this professionalism mentioned there conducts himself unprofessionally, I simply cannot agree with that statement. When this announcement comes after months of speaking within the Gutter of this lack of professionalism and a CI thread was made with suggestions to tackle this (while not making any direct accusations), I cannot agree with that statement.
I would like to ask for some evidence of Gutter members evading evasions and bans. And please don't bring up MIKE "HUNT" FLORES, since it has been proved that only g_c knew about him, and he actually got a harsher punishment than warranted (his banning, which was overturned later). If this is about g-suspensions (also later overturned due to their unfairness) and I think it is, I must say that no one in the Gutter attempted to hide the fact that some users were using gimmicks to bypass their unfair g-suspensions during a difficult time. And it is exactly because those g-suspensions had to be evaded in order to have an urging discussion and because banning the members involved was being discussed, that the Penalty Box was removed (again, refer to the "Story of GR and the Gutter" link). Bringing this up now as a reason to close the Gutter holds no water.
Furthermore, has the senior staff considered that their inability to "properly monitor the forum without drawing extreme levels of hostility" may have its roots in the way you run things, make decisions and/or the way you communicate them? (this very thread, case in point)
This needs to be updated, please. Thanks in advance.
I hope this post is answered and addressed thoroughly. Thanks.
About telling people that they are "misinformed"
This happened in what used to be TBCITE as well. People coming without knowledge, jumping to conclusions and posting judgmental opinions based only on their previous experiences, not even related to the matter in question. This time, this was worsened by a very misrepresenting OP, as exposed above. As others have said, all these perhaps good-intended opinions only clutter a thread and introduce noise to the communication that the Gutter members are trying to have with the Staff as to the circumstances in which this decision was made. I would have recommended the approach I took in November: see for yourself before saying what may be considered nonsense by people who actually know what they're talking about.
I personally apologize to any members I may have affronted in the course of this discussion.
About the Benefits of the Gutter
I believe that this has been answered by quotes I posted here by no other than Yukora and Viperesque. Like I said once in the Mod Lounge, the Gutter is Sally's QA. The culture of the Gutter is all about post quality. It has helped bring out the real personalities of the DC's, TS's and m0's. It has pointed out the mistakes of the moderators and administrators. It has pointed out the risks of certain threads. All this has been accomplished by the unique combination of a group of like-minded yet diverse individuals, freedom to express ideas and privacy. As I write this, a former administrator of this site has put it similarly:
About the "Times New Roman Monstrosity"
As mentioned by someone else, it's a cute post, with a preface and everything. What I get out of the post:
Final Words
I want to quote something from TBGTE:
As I have stated before, I have little faith in the reversal of this decision. I encourage you to prove that and Ximbad's post wrong.
And I will end this by saying that the Gutter will endure, because it is not the subforum:
WE are Gutter. We did it for the lafs.
My YouTube Channel
While this may (or may not) come to a surprise to some of you, I used to be so anti-gutter and hold grudges against a few of it's members for things they've done or thought they have done (a lot if not all unfounded truthfully), and I've been back for around two-three months now (I think, I may be wrong) and honestly what have they done? I don't visit every forum/subforum admittedly but I do in a few of them and I have not seen one gutter related incident in any of them since I've been back, that some of you are claiming they have done. The only gutter related drama I've seen is what has happened as a result of this thread being created, which was not made by a gutter member, and I honestly thought this thread came out of nowhere.
A lot of people are basicly claiming the gutter is the root of all evil on MTGSalvation or are at least trying to make it seem that way but I don't see it that way..at all. I used to mindlessly spam this forum day in and day out until they helped me move on. I'd come to MTGSalvation (along with other forums) and post non-stop until they stepped in. At first I was pretty angry and had an axe to grind against them, but after a while I found it funny and moved on. I got a job, got my own place, started dating, and am going back to school this fall to further my education instead of being a mindless, jobless spammer thanks to the gutter, so I thank all those back then that helped me, you've made a better person because of it, even if I didn't think so at the time....Taking that into account you want to shut down this place? I find that pretty bizarre and wrong.
tl;dr- The gutter hasn't done anything wrong that I have seen, so why don't we all be adults here (move on if you have a grudge ideally) and let them keep what they have? The gutter can do good too you know...
That happens with every game where the staff or peoples in charge are speaking with the public. You should see MMORPG forums. Every time a class gets nerfed, thousands of them hit the forums to complain to the devs.
Whining is human. Is nothing new.
OMG This is amazing here:
My Buying Thread
The goal of the Senior Staff (a.k.a. - the visions of what we want the site to be) is to enhance and promote the MTGS site and the MTGS "community" as a whole in a positive light that encourages participation by individuals, families, and other entities affiliated with the game whether it be on a casual or professional level. This includes civility, tolerance, and staff professionalism in all parts of the site - not just the ones visible to the public.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
You want to make the site a better place, than I suggest starting with yourselves before you try to "fix" others.
What was that old adage about pointing fingers?
note - this was not aimed at you alone G-span but at the administration as a whole. For what its worth I actually think your one of the good ones.
The Family
Lol. I'm a political science major and I still think you guys are full of yourselves with this one. It's a nice try at a blanket statement that was written to answer our questions though.
I'd love to see someone address this and GR fwiw.
You think we aren't always trying to improve ourselves? The above statement is in no way a state of the union - it's a list of goals.
It was in response to GR's request, but you know how it goes. You have all these ideas floating around in a few different places being talked about by a bunch of people and then you say, "Hey, I need to condense this so I can stay focused on the goals and not get distracted by the periphery." Filtering and refining ideas is not the same as post-rationalization or being full of ones self.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
As a group its possible. But first you need to remove the bad apples before they spoil the bunch.
The Family
While this definitely sounds very nice, it ultimately doesn't mean anything. Breaking one part of the list (staff professionalism) in order to address what's ultimately a fringe problem is kind of backwards. Furthermore, the shortsighted focus on the Gutter (invisible and largely unknown to the public) before dealing with all the problems that truly ruin the site's reputation reeks of extraordinarily misplaced priorities. This brings down the image and reputation of the staff even further. Again to continue the old Romani metaphor, it's clearing out the insular and harmless Romani at the edge of the city while doing nothing about the inner-city turmoil, crime, violence, etc.
Does your desire to encourage participation by "individuals, families, and other entities" include those individuals, families, and other entities who are uncivil/intolerant?
If so, don't they need somewhere to post?
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)