Now I understand the "well report that surf" argument. But if a gutter member f'd off in the gutter the gutter deals with it. If he does so out side the gutter then; he needs to be reported and dealt with by the staff.
If the staff is shutting down the gutter for the behavior of the members outside the gutter then they to need address every problem on every forum the same way.
How are you going to accomplish this?
neither the staff or the bandwagon gutter haters have addressed this why is the gutter to blame for all the sites woes When IT'S ****ING OBVIOUS the site's non-gutter users are pretty good at making this place a **** hole.
Its not an insult, but w/e. It could have been perfectly healthy. lol.
In the words of the best of movie gangsters of this decade... why so serious?
Right, sure, good luck to you all as you talk past each other. Peace out, broseph.
claiming you're having sex with someone else's mother is an insult; i was literally agreeing with you and you insulted me after a really calm and reasoned response to you in a situation you're being willfully ignorant about.
Calm the hell down, Kijin. I know you're upset, and can forgive this, but what about bringing up the obvious so that it can be dealt with and forever pass into obscurity is wrong? I think you do me a grave disservice; I was there during the discussion and remember it clearly.. all I am suggesting is that you think a little farther back. The last time the Gutter was closed, what was my policy during that? What tactics did I bring to the forefront during TBCITE? What was the outcome there?
My own desires here are best kept behind the locked doors of the moderator section, but I see no problem with giving you a helping hand in suggesting a valid compromise that has a history of working to everyone's benefit.
By dredging up false information and once again delivering blows to my character from an unassailable bold-tagged assailant?
Say what you mean and mean what you say, because you're ****ting all over the bed right now and I don't have the patience to play Figure It Out while you >imply things about me.
By dredging up false information and once again delivering blows to my character from an unassailable bold-tagged assailant?
I made no statement as to the validity of the charges against the Gutter, or to you, when I brought up the incident in question; I merely pointed out that by working through that, which we are doing here, it would help smooth over many of the other incidences that might also have occurred. It's a palliation attempt, a chance to, as GumOnShoe, Azrael, and others have suggested, find a middle ground and work toward an accord that has a chance of succeeding.. as similar palliations have worked in the past.
Say what you mean and mean what you say, because you're ****ting all over the bed right now and I don't have the patience to play Figure It Out while you >imply things about me.
Considering the recent fallout with the Code of Conduct, I feel I cannot in good conscience do so. I do apologize, as I know this is making the discussion far more difficult than it needs to be.
Now I understand the "well report that surf" argument. But if a gutter member f'd off in the gutter the gutter deals with it. If he does so out side the gutter then; he needs to be reported and dealt with by the staff.
If the staff is shutting down the gutter for the behavior of the members outside the gutter then they to need address every problem on every forum the same way.
How are you going to accomplish this?
neither the staff or the bandwagon gutter haters have addressed this why is the gutter to blame for all the sites woes When IT'S ****ING OBVIOUS the site's non-gutter users are pretty good at making this place a **** hole.
This is a really good point. Very few people have any idea what the gutter is, yet the rest of Salvation has done a very good job of making itself look very bad without the gutter.
The only high profile players that I have heard of posting on Salvation are Patrick Chapin and Sene. No offense to Sene, but he's not exactly super well known. It is unlikely that I would remember how to pronounce his name (and I already sure as heck can't spell it from memory) if it weren't for the fact that he was in a tight race against a friend of mine for ROY nor the fact that I played against him in Nagoya.
I don't have links to the posts at this time, but from what I recall of Chapin's posts on Sally they mostly involve him asserting something intelligent and then being rude to the masses of bad players trying to argue against his well-argued points with arrogant/ignorant nonsense.
Outside of that, I can think of no other high profile player that has anything to do with this site. Further, every good player that I know will ask why I insist on punishing myself by frequenting Salvation any time I mention a thread that interested me (for whatever reason, usually mind-boggling stupidity to be entirely honest- examples include horribly misinformed and wrong opinions that pop up in threads about decks that I like, such as the current Tempo Thresh thread... which is just... awful) to them.
Salvation isn't known for being a golden community that harbors intelligent discussion. As I said earlier in this thread, for the most part Salvation is best known for consolidating spoilers better than other sites. Heck, with the way sets are spoiled these days StarCity isn't even very far behind Sally with preorders, so even this might be something that soon becomes a thing of the past (though it is true that currently spoiler season still drives a quite a bit of traffic, even if this traffic is people coming in to spam the rumor mill, traffic is still a good thing I guess).
Anyway, the overarching point is that Salvation already doesn't have a very good reputation for things that happen out in the open.
I made no statement as to the validity of the charges against the Gutter, or to you, when I brought up the incident in question; I merely pointed out that by working through that, which we are doing here, it would help smooth over many of the other incidences that might also have occurred. It's a palliation attempt, a chance to, as GumOnShoe, Azrael, and others have suggested, find a middle ground and work toward an accord that has a chance of succeeding.. as similar palliations have worked in the past.
Considering the recent fallout with the Code of Conduct, I feel I cannot in good conscience do so. I do apologize, as I know this is making the discussion far more difficult than it needs to be.
He's kinda mad at you for saying he was trolling a thread in RLA where a young man was threatening to shoot up his school because he didn't feel anything like them. I remember this thread, and what really happen was other forum members where telling the kid to get over it, grow up, you won't do it because you are weak, etc etc, and then Kijin saw the thread and posted in it and told the thread maker to seek professional help and told the other posters they should be ashamed of themselves, which got Kijin demodded. i hope my sentences were not terrible because I'm terrible with words.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Randall 0705 - 2219 - 6000 and my pokemon safari is water, Azumarill Bibarel and Floatzel
Quote from "Megiddo" »
i like banning people because it makes people I don't like go away
He's kinda mad at you for saying he was trolling a thread in RLA where a young man was threatening to shoot up his school because he didn't feel anything like them. I remember this thread, and what really happen was other forum members where telling the kid to get over it, grow up, you won't do it because you are weak, etc etc, and then Kijin saw the thread and posted in it and told the thread maker to seek professional help and told the other posters they should be ashamed of themselves, which got Kijin demodded. i hope my sentences were not terrible because I'm terrible with words.
I can understand his frustration. I do not blame him, or you, for being angry with me for dredging up such unpleasant history. The silver lining, however, is that if you can reach a concensus of how to stop such unpleasantness in the future, it can be brought forth as a way to show that the members of the Gutter are open to compromise.
i don't know if me being thick-headed/my inability to understand people and not understanding what you, misclick, are saying or if you are not seeing my point of the fact is Kijin was not trolling a thread that other posters where. Like I really don't want to think a mod is trolling even though I did say it before.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Randall 0705 - 2219 - 6000 and my pokemon safari is water, Azumarill Bibarel and Floatzel
Quote from "Megiddo" »
i like banning people because it makes people I don't like go away
I can understand his frustration. I do not blame him, or you, for being angry with me for dredging up such unpleasant history. The silver lining, however, is that if you can reach a concensus of how to stop such unpleasantness in the future, it can be brought forth as a way to show that the members of the Gutter are open to compromise.
I'll see if I can get ( n_s ) to write up some new rules against cyberbullying. RLA could really use them.
Please abide by all rules and regulations of MTGS its parent and its affiliates. Malicious activity will result in termination of your account. Do not smoke fake weed. Refrain from trolling the staff and/or its sponsored trolls. This may result in your suspension or account termination. Do not reveal the location of Senior Staff members. Do not purchase Big Gulps outside of Manhattan to bring them there. Do not purchase Kinder Surprise eggs. Offer expires after 40 days. Cursing Annorax optional.
i don't know if me being thick-headed/my inability to understand people and not understanding what you, misclick, are saying or if you are not seeing my point of the fact is Kijin was not trolling a thread that other posters where. Like I really don't want to think a mod is trolling even though I did say it before.
No need to apologize; it was, in fact, my fault for not providing enough context. The drama created was what seems most unpleasant, what left the biggest impression on a lot of people, and that is what I feel should be most important to stop.
No need to apologize; it was, in fact, my fault for not providing enough context. The drama created was what seems most unpleasant, what left the biggest impression on a lot of people, and that is what I feel should be most important to stop.
Then you need to ban kijin or get him to stop posting outside of the gutter. One of those is already true.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please abide by all rules and regulations of MTGS its parent and its affiliates. Malicious activity will result in termination of your account. Do not smoke fake weed. Refrain from trolling the staff and/or its sponsored trolls. This may result in your suspension or account termination. Do not reveal the location of Senior Staff members. Do not purchase Big Gulps outside of Manhattan to bring them there. Do not purchase Kinder Surprise eggs. Offer expires after 40 days. Cursing Annorax optional.
This is a really good point. Very few people have any idea what the gutter is, yet the rest of Salvation has done a very good job of making itself look very bad without the gutter.
Worse, when ignorant people are asked if they have any firsthand experience with the Gutter, they simply defend their ignorance and claim (either implicitly or explicitly) that hearsay should be all they need.
Salvation isn't known for being a golden community that harbors intelligent discussion.
...
Anyway, the overarching point is that Salvation already doesn't have a very good reputation for things that happen out in the open.
The Gutter is to Salvation what Salvation is to the rest of the Magic community, if you look at it a certain way. And removing a private subforum is a meaningless token gesture as far as changing the site's reputation as a whole, when every single person I talk to in real life about Salvation mentions the rampant trolling in the main forums, the overall bad atmosphere of bickering and arguing the place has, and the site's penchant for dramabombs. The Gutter affects pretty much none of that outside of the odd CI threads... yet the Gutter is the problem for seemingly no other reason than it hurt ria's feelings. And acts like shutting down the Gutter will only contribute to the publicly visible problems you mentioned.
It gets increasingly depressing the more you look at the issue and see the cracks that won't ever get filled because they're just not a priority.
I used to not like Kijin. It's true! when I was fairly new, I made an ass out of myself over in Market Street Cafe on accident because I wasn't thinking, and he infracted me, and his only comment was "Sweet Brags Bro." At first, I was angry, and thought that was a terrible way to do that, and sent him a long message about it, and got a clean-cut professional response, and no other correspondence happened.
You know what? I went back later and laughed. Thanks to the comment he made, I can now laugh at that infraction instead of just being ashamed of it, and his responding to me in a clear way actually took away my anxiety towards the moderators of this site.
When the thread happened and Kijin exploded, I was confused, and I went and read the thread in question. At first, it didn't seem likeit was THAT bad that he had to respond that way. Then I thought back to how I was when I felt that way, the feel of the knife in my pocket, the desire to shove it into a fellow human being, and I remember a friend stopping me, pulling me aside, and just lecturing the crap out of me. Told me I needed help, that I needed to not be like this, that this kind of anger was not normally supposed to be taken out this way. That saved me from a totally different future than I now have. Now, can you imagine if instead, their attitude had been "lol you won't do it ya pansy! Grow up!"
Now, I can say that I'm a fairly mentally healthy, and very mentally stable, adult, and five years ago, my NOT getting trolled probably saved lives. I went to, and still go to, therapy instead, and my life is so much better for it. Remembering this, having that thread trigger memories of how I felt, how alone I thought I was, how blindingly angry I was, how it seemed like the world existed to taunt me, how I wanted to cry and die every night...I was disgusted. The whole thread, anyone not saying to get help, I wished for that bold text under my name so bad, just to ban them immediately. and I was sad to see Kijin being punished for it. He could have reacted better, sure, but you know what? I would have reacted the same way he did. So would most of you.
I still don't think Kijin and I would be good friends or anything, he's not my favorite person though I think he does fine, and I'm no member of the Gutter, hell I don't even talk to any members regularly. But you know what? I'll be incredibly disappointed to see it closed like this. This is coming from someone who, on a personal level, is neutral to most gutterites, and I actually really like Ria just from what little conversation we've had, and I hate seeing him attacked, too.
Let's all take a step back for a second, and maybe realize that people are more important than pixels. I think Kijin's statement rings true- Stop acting like manchildren. It's stupid.
These rules can be a great starter suggestion!
1 - Fight Club rule. Posting out of the gutter about the gutter is a warning or infraction first time, gutter-ban after.
2 - Planned raids from the Gutter are instant gutter-ban.
3 - Cyberbullying is instant gutter-ban.
4 - Insinuating the Gutter has been involved at large in any of these things is an instant gutter-ban.
etc., etc.?
And if you're about to say "Well, that won't stop it from happening!" Yeah, well, welcome to moderation. You signed up for a job where you get to sit around having to tediously drag through things because, face it, you're helpless to what actually happens. Telling people not to troll or flame didn't stop people from trolling a person on the verge of mass homicide and suicide, now did it? Man up. I like our staff, this is the best staff I think we've had, in my eyes, since we signed up. I miss Azrael being on staff, but damn is it good to see people like Sene, Viricide, Galspanic, Arcadic, etc.
Take a step back. People are more important than pixels.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Getting Back into the swing of MTGS. Bear with me folks~
my only grip is this rule. what is the definition of cyberbullying? a lot of people could abuse this rule
Intentionally doing anything that would be considered severe verbal or psychological abuse in reality. "Lol you're friggin stupid." is not cyberbullying. "then do it pansy! I hate little ****s like you!" is cyberbullying.
"Dude, gtfo, nobody cares." is not cyberbullying in a thread about a new card. The same thing is cyberbullying, however, in a thread about someone's thoughts of suicide.
I think the nature of the comment in the case of cyberbullying should be decided by the gutter-mods, and maybe some choice gutter members. You gys can look out for your OWN reputation.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Getting Back into the swing of MTGS. Bear with me folks~
Intentionally doing anything that would be considered severe verbal or psychological abuse in reality. "Lol you're friggin stupid." is not cyberbullying. "then do it pansy! I hate little ****s like you!" is cyberbullying.
"Dude, gtfo, nobody cares." is not cyberbullying in a thread about a new card. The same thing is cyberbullying, however, in a thread about someone's thoughts of suicide.
I think the nature of the comment in the case of cyberbullying should be decided by the gutter-mods, and maybe some choice gutter members. You gys can look out for your OWN reputation.
But a lot of people going "Lol you're friggin stupid" is cyber bullying. I mean even that sentence can be construed as cyber bullying, it would have to be reviewed at a case by case basis, tbh.
But a lot of people going "Lol you're friggin stupid" is cyber bullying. I mean even that sentence can be construed as cyber bullying, it would have to be reviewed at a case by case basis, tbh.
That's true. Honestly, it's what makes moderating things like RLA such a hard job, and why I like Viricide so much. He does the best job he can of seeing that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Getting Back into the swing of MTGS. Bear with me folks~
my only grip is this rule. what is the definition of cyberbullying? a lot of people could abuse this rule
I agree with not liking a "I know it when I see it" standard on this, which is basically what you'd be stuck with there with that rule as worded.
Probably a better version of that rule would be "inciting someone to cause harm to self/others = gutterban", which seems a bit clearer to me at least. (Whether or not the person being talking to actually goes through with it should be irrelevant - if someone's saying they want to, say, commit suicide, a response of "lol go do it" obviously is in the magical land of we-don't-need-that-around-here.)
EDIT: As far as DV's example statement... see, that's why I have a problem with a "I know it when I see it" standard. The right to call someone an idiot when they're doing something stupid should be available, which unfortunately means that people will also have the ability to call someone an idiot just because they disagree. Multiple people ragging on one guy should probably be handled under a separate rule, though. (And, really, in that situation I think the correct way to handle it is to remove the target temporarily. Hand the guy a short-term - 24 hours? - Gutter suspension, but specifically state in the PM about it that it's to try and defuse the situation rather than because of anything they did wrong.)
This is a really good point. Very few people have any idea what the gutter is, yet the rest of Salvation has done a very good job of making itself look very bad without the gutter.
The only high profile players that I have heard of posting on Salvation are Patrick Chapin and Sene. No offense to Sene, but he's not exactly super well known. It is unlikely that I would remember how to pronounce his name (and I already sure as heck can't spell it from memory) if it weren't for the fact that he was in a tight race against a friend of mine for ROY nor the fact that I played against him in Nagoya.
I don't have links to the posts at this time, but from what I recall of Chapin's posts on Sally they mostly involve him asserting something intelligent and then being rude to the masses of bad players trying to argue against his well-argued points with arrogant/ignorant nonsense.
Outside of that, I can think of no other high profile player that has anything to do with this site. Further, every good player that I know will ask why I insist on punishing myself by frequenting Salvation any time I mention a thread that interested me (for whatever reason, usually mind-boggling stupidity to be entirely honest- examples include horribly misinformed and wrong opinions that pop up in threads about decks that I like, such as the current Tempo Thresh thread... which is just... awful) to them.
Salvation isn't known for being a golden community that harbors intelligent discussion. As I said earlier in this thread, for the most part Salvation is best known for consolidating spoilers better than other sites. Heck, with the way sets are spoiled these days StarCity isn't even very far behind Sally with preorders, so even this might be something that soon becomes a thing of the past (though it is true that currently spoiler season still drives a quite a bit of traffic, even if this traffic is people coming in to spam the rumor mill, traffic is still a good thing I guess).
Anyway, the overarching point is that Salvation already doesn't have a very good reputation for things that happen out in the open.
And let's not forget that ZERO staff or gutter haters have responded to it, even though it's been asked 3-5 times now in this thread.
But a lot of people going "Lol you're friggin stupid" is cyber bullying. I mean even that sentence can be construed as cyber bullying, it would have to be reviewed at a case by case basis, tbh.
But calling people scrubs and noobs who don't know to build decks or play isn't?
Probably a better version of that rule would be "inciting someone to cause harm to self/others = gutterban", which seems a bit clearer to me at least. (Whether or not the person being talking to actually goes through with it should be irrelevant - if someone's saying they want to, say, commit suicide, a response of "lol go do it" obviously is in the magical land of we-don't-need-that-around-here.)
I'm sorry to tell you that, but in this case it will be too late, what is said - is said. Maybe that is why they want to close the Gutter to avoid such issues in the future.
Another thing that I want to say is that by accusing each other you created a grand reality show and I only can guess how much bystanders are watching it right now. I dont like when people wash their dirty linen in public. I'm going to ask right now to make Community Issues a private subforum.
I came out strongly against the Gutter with my first post here, because I vehemently disagree with the very concept of the thing. I've seen private sections like the Gutter (or even the Mod Lounge, to be honest) create unnecessary tension in almost every community I've been a part of that had them.
But the Gutterites started to sway me as the result of a lot of dirt they brought to light on the administration's side, and what I feel was some poor handling of this issue and others in the past.
But two wrongs mean both sides are wrong. If the Gutterites want any measure of respect from the regular userbase, they are going to need to start giving that same respect instead of continually bashing them. I've found value in a lot of the posts from the Gutterites and their supporters, but at this point I'm sick to death of hearing "you're ignorant" "shut up, the adults are talking" "stop posting," "nothing you say is valid," "you're lying" with no attempt to prove why, etc.
Worse, when ignorant people are asked if they have any firsthand experience with the Gutter, they simply defend their ignorance and claim (either implicitly or explicitly) that hearsay should be all they need.
Is this hearsay so far from the truth? After so many accusations of ignorance and talking down to Gutter opponents, telling them to shut up because they didn't know what they were talking about, I applied a couple days ago, so I research the Gutter's content and be sure I had a better idea of the facts.
I read the Gutter somewhat thoroughly after my application was accepted and found a lot of truth and humor within, but it was all permeated by nastiness. Even a lot of the "Let's talk about [set]!" threads were chock full of posts that served no purpose but to mock the regular users of the site. Not always specific users, but the entire community in general. There were several threads dedicated solely to making fun of specific users, whether they had consented/applied to the Gutter or not.
It might not be trolling if they can't see it, but just because the targets of the Gutter's scorn can't see it, doesn't mean it's not bullying and it doesn't mean it's okay for the administration to foster it. For all the accusations of childishness being flung at the Gutter's opponents, for all the charges of hypocrisy, with varying merit, being flung around, the Gutter community really needs to take a step back and consider the virtues of what they are doing when they fight so hard to defend their right to snicker at other people behind their backs, because THAT is truly childish.
I would definitely consider worse that some mods were doing the same thing, commend Kijin and NS for apparently not being a part of it in there, and between this and the Kijin incident have actually come to agree with the calls for Ria to step down, but that in no way excuses such behavior on the Gutter's part, especially if the Gutterites want to think themselves superior to the average user, which is a very common thread among the posts in there and even the posts in here. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8595981&postcount=1429 PhantomS' reply here is a perfect example.
I keep hearing Gutterites make claims that "it's just good natured ribbing of each other, we can handle it," which is fine, and I think they should have the right to say whatever they want about each other if that's how they choose to conduct themselves, but this claim ceases to be true the instant that community's contempt is turned on anyone who has not agreed to be a part of their community.
And I know not ALL Gutterites are making the "watchdog" claim, but for the ones that are, it rings extremely hollow when it's come to light that the Gutter's focus has almost entirely been turned on staff members only in situations where the staffer's actions affected a Gutterite or the Gutter itself. I'll admit that in all the examples I've seen where this was the case, the Gutterites were actually in the right, but when it only happens if your homeboys are threatened or the perpetrator was already in your sights due to past personal grievances, then at that point, it's not checks and balances, it's gang warfare, and you should stop wearing it as a feather in your cap. If there are several examples I've missed of it being done on a non-Gutter-member's behalf, then I'll buy the claim, but I've been looking and failing to find any, as much as I want there to be.
I do believe that some Gutterites like NS and Kijin ultimately have mostly good, if not somewhat misguided, intentions and have been outstanding members of the community in the past. I have a soft spot for subversive elements that serve the greater good, even when they don't agree with me. But the more I see from the Gutter in general, the less and less I believe that as a community it's anything of the sort, and the more I feel that it's just an elitist cesspit that serves little purpose but to unite like-minded miscreants in the spirit of nastiness and thumbing your nose at authority, elevating its members above the rest of the community they loathe.
Go ahead, pick apart this post piece by piece, I don't care. I've said my piece and believe everything I said, so outside of lurking, I'm done with this issue now and look forward to the Gutter's closing, or preferably a compromise that lightens the tone and transforms it from a place to roast people its users don't like to a place where people can share irreverent, controversial jokes and good times with each other. It'd even be great if the longest thread on MTGS ever could somehow be kept alive. But the current attitudes being expressed in by most of its defenders are doing a disservice to this possibility or highlight the fact that it is either not something they would accept, or not the real reason they're so attached to the Gutter.
I'm sorry to tell you that, but in this case it will be too late, what is said - is said. Maybe that is why they want to close the Gutter to avoid such issues in the future.
Another thing that I want to say is that by accusing each other you created a grand reality show and I only can guess how much bystanders are watching it right now. I dont like when people wash their dirty linen in public. I'm going to ask right now to make Community Issues a private subforum.
That would defeat the entire purpose of this section. Also, these are the people that defended you and others in a bad position with internet and problems, and the champion of that cause was one of them, so...I'm wondering what's causing this opinion on the Gutter?
Here's a thought:
I want these rules instated in this thread, as of now, under penalty of warning or infraction:
Only people who can prove an interaction with Gutter members and use it as part of proof of their statements may post feedback on Gutter/Gutter Members.
Only people with proof or points t omake about them that can be backed up with public evidence or well-known events may insult/slander staff or Gutter members.
Only members who have had interaction with Staff in a way pertaining to this thread, or Gutter members, in a way besides indirect, and can have that person back them up, or prove it in some way, may post in this thread.
O SOMETHING. Because this is getting out of hand. If a judge catches me talking to players during their match, I get asked to leave.
Also, if Community Issues was Private, it would no longer be Community Issues, would be useless, and would make 0 sense. Please use your logic when making suggestions, because we all know that all of you are much smarter than this.
I'm sorry to tell you that, but in this case it will be too late, what is said - is said. Maybe that is why they want to close the Gutter to avoid such issues in the future.
Another thing that I want to say is that by accusing each other you created a grand reality show and I only can guess how much bystanders are watching it right now. I dont like when people wash their dirty linen in public. I'm going to ask right now to make Community Issues a private subforum.
Here's the thing, in the discussed about thread, not one gutter member was telling the threader starter to do it and etc. it was the rest of the forum which got off scott free.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Randall 0705 - 2219 - 6000 and my pokemon safari is water, Azumarill Bibarel and Floatzel
Quote from "Megiddo" »
i like banning people because it makes people I don't like go away
-if the gutter is shut down for the reasons stated, what is going to happen to the rest of the forums who exhibit poor behavior. Examples:
1) useless spam in the rumor mill causing no room for actual card
discussion. Example: threads filled with this- http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8569264&postcount=5
2) the constant derailing into casual Vs. competative arguments of every thread in the edh forum. Example: this guy-http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/member.php?u=79404
3) the standard/modern/legacy board's fake pro bullying.
Examaple: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8571920&postcount=990
another example http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8591452&postcount=73
(I find this stuff by simply clicking on almost any thread there)
Now I understand the "well report that surf" argument. But if a gutter member f'd off in the gutter the gutter deals with it. If he does so out side the gutter then; he needs to be reported and dealt with by the staff.
If the staff is shutting down the gutter for the behavior of the members outside the gutter then they to need address every problem on every forum the same way.
How are you going to accomplish this?
neither the staff or the bandwagon gutter haters have addressed this why is the gutter to blame for all the sites woes When IT'S ****ING OBVIOUS the site's non-gutter users are pretty good at making this place a **** hole.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
claiming you're having sex with someone else's mother is an insult; i was literally agreeing with you and you insulted me after a really calm and reasoned response to you in a situation you're being willfully ignorant about.
Buy from me on TCGPlayer::Twitter::Flickr
www.diestoremoval.com
A truly great petition
By dredging up false information and once again delivering blows to my character from an unassailable bold-tagged assailant?
Say what you mean and mean what you say, because you're ****ting all over the bed right now and I don't have the patience to play Figure It Out while you >imply things about me.
Buy from me on TCGPlayer::Twitter::Flickr
Please explain how he is trolling.
I made no statement as to the validity of the charges against the Gutter, or to you, when I brought up the incident in question; I merely pointed out that by working through that, which we are doing here, it would help smooth over many of the other incidences that might also have occurred. It's a palliation attempt, a chance to, as GumOnShoe, Azrael, and others have suggested, find a middle ground and work toward an accord that has a chance of succeeding.. as similar palliations have worked in the past.
Considering the recent fallout with the Code of Conduct, I feel I cannot in good conscience do so. I do apologize, as I know this is making the discussion far more difficult than it needs to be.
This is a really good point. Very few people have any idea what the gutter is, yet the rest of Salvation has done a very good job of making itself look very bad without the gutter.
The only high profile players that I have heard of posting on Salvation are Patrick Chapin and Sene. No offense to Sene, but he's not exactly super well known. It is unlikely that I would remember how to pronounce his name (and I already sure as heck can't spell it from memory) if it weren't for the fact that he was in a tight race against a friend of mine for ROY nor the fact that I played against him in Nagoya.
I don't have links to the posts at this time, but from what I recall of Chapin's posts on Sally they mostly involve him asserting something intelligent and then being rude to the masses of bad players trying to argue against his well-argued points with arrogant/ignorant nonsense.
Outside of that, I can think of no other high profile player that has anything to do with this site. Further, every good player that I know will ask why I insist on punishing myself by frequenting Salvation any time I mention a thread that interested me (for whatever reason, usually mind-boggling stupidity to be entirely honest- examples include horribly misinformed and wrong opinions that pop up in threads about decks that I like, such as the current Tempo Thresh thread... which is just... awful) to them.
Salvation isn't known for being a golden community that harbors intelligent discussion. As I said earlier in this thread, for the most part Salvation is best known for consolidating spoilers better than other sites. Heck, with the way sets are spoiled these days StarCity isn't even very far behind Sally with preorders, so even this might be something that soon becomes a thing of the past (though it is true that currently spoiler season still drives a quite a bit of traffic, even if this traffic is people coming in to spam the rumor mill, traffic is still a good thing I guess).
Anyway, the overarching point is that Salvation already doesn't have a very good reputation for things that happen out in the open.
He's kinda mad at you for saying he was trolling a thread in RLA where a young man was threatening to shoot up his school because he didn't feel anything like them. I remember this thread, and what really happen was other forum members where telling the kid to get over it, grow up, you won't do it because you are weak, etc etc, and then Kijin saw the thread and posted in it and told the thread maker to seek professional help and told the other posters they should be ashamed of themselves, which got Kijin demodded. i hope my sentences were not terrible because I'm terrible with words.
www.diestoremoval.com
A truly great petition
I can understand his frustration. I do not blame him, or you, for being angry with me for dredging up such unpleasant history. The silver lining, however, is that if you can reach a concensus of how to stop such unpleasantness in the future, it can be brought forth as a way to show that the members of the Gutter are open to compromise.
www.diestoremoval.com
A truly great petition
Edit: done! http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=411244
No need to apologize; it was, in fact, my fault for not providing enough context. The drama created was what seems most unpleasant, what left the biggest impression on a lot of people, and that is what I feel should be most important to stop.
Worse, when ignorant people are asked if they have any firsthand experience with the Gutter, they simply defend their ignorance and claim (either implicitly or explicitly) that hearsay should be all they need.
The Gutter is to Salvation what Salvation is to the rest of the Magic community, if you look at it a certain way. And removing a private subforum is a meaningless token gesture as far as changing the site's reputation as a whole, when every single person I talk to in real life about Salvation mentions the rampant trolling in the main forums, the overall bad atmosphere of bickering and arguing the place has, and the site's penchant for dramabombs. The Gutter affects pretty much none of that outside of the odd CI threads... yet the Gutter is the problem for seemingly no other reason than it hurt ria's feelings. And acts like shutting down the Gutter will only contribute to the publicly visible problems you mentioned.
It gets increasingly depressing the more you look at the issue and see the cracks that won't ever get filled because they're just not a priority.
You know what? I went back later and laughed. Thanks to the comment he made, I can now laugh at that infraction instead of just being ashamed of it, and his responding to me in a clear way actually took away my anxiety towards the moderators of this site.
When the thread happened and Kijin exploded, I was confused, and I went and read the thread in question. At first, it didn't seem likeit was THAT bad that he had to respond that way. Then I thought back to how I was when I felt that way, the feel of the knife in my pocket, the desire to shove it into a fellow human being, and I remember a friend stopping me, pulling me aside, and just lecturing the crap out of me. Told me I needed help, that I needed to not be like this, that this kind of anger was not normally supposed to be taken out this way. That saved me from a totally different future than I now have. Now, can you imagine if instead, their attitude had been "lol you won't do it ya pansy! Grow up!"
Now, I can say that I'm a fairly mentally healthy, and very mentally stable, adult, and five years ago, my NOT getting trolled probably saved lives. I went to, and still go to, therapy instead, and my life is so much better for it. Remembering this, having that thread trigger memories of how I felt, how alone I thought I was, how blindingly angry I was, how it seemed like the world existed to taunt me, how I wanted to cry and die every night...I was disgusted. The whole thread, anyone not saying to get help, I wished for that bold text under my name so bad, just to ban them immediately. and I was sad to see Kijin being punished for it. He could have reacted better, sure, but you know what? I would have reacted the same way he did. So would most of you.
I still don't think Kijin and I would be good friends or anything, he's not my favorite person though I think he does fine, and I'm no member of the Gutter, hell I don't even talk to any members regularly. But you know what? I'll be incredibly disappointed to see it closed like this. This is coming from someone who, on a personal level, is neutral to most gutterites, and I actually really like Ria just from what little conversation we've had, and I hate seeing him attacked, too.
Let's all take a step back for a second, and maybe realize that people are more important than pixels. I think Kijin's statement rings true- Stop acting like manchildren. It's stupid.
These rules can be a great starter suggestion!
1 - Fight Club rule. Posting out of the gutter about the gutter is a warning or infraction first time, gutter-ban after.
2 - Planned raids from the Gutter are instant gutter-ban.
3 - Cyberbullying is instant gutter-ban.
4 - Insinuating the Gutter has been involved at large in any of these things is an instant gutter-ban.
etc., etc.?
And if you're about to say "Well, that won't stop it from happening!" Yeah, well, welcome to moderation. You signed up for a job where you get to sit around having to tediously drag through things because, face it, you're helpless to what actually happens. Telling people not to troll or flame didn't stop people from trolling a person on the verge of mass homicide and suicide, now did it? Man up. I like our staff, this is the best staff I think we've had, in my eyes, since we signed up. I miss Azrael being on staff, but damn is it good to see people like Sene, Viricide, Galspanic, Arcadic, etc.
Take a step back. People are more important than pixels.
Done by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery signatures!
my only grip is this rule. what is the definition of cyberbullying? a lot of people could abuse this rule
www.diestoremoval.com
A truly great petition
Intentionally doing anything that would be considered severe verbal or psychological abuse in reality. "Lol you're friggin stupid." is not cyberbullying. "then do it pansy! I hate little ****s like you!" is cyberbullying.
"Dude, gtfo, nobody cares." is not cyberbullying in a thread about a new card. The same thing is cyberbullying, however, in a thread about someone's thoughts of suicide.
I think the nature of the comment in the case of cyberbullying should be decided by the gutter-mods, and maybe some choice gutter members. You gys can look out for your OWN reputation.
Done by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery signatures!
But a lot of people going "Lol you're friggin stupid" is cyber bullying. I mean even that sentence can be construed as cyber bullying, it would have to be reviewed at a case by case basis, tbh.
That's true. Honestly, it's what makes moderating things like RLA such a hard job, and why I like Viricide so much. He does the best job he can of seeing that.
Done by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery signatures!
Probably a better version of that rule would be "inciting someone to cause harm to self/others = gutterban", which seems a bit clearer to me at least. (Whether or not the person being talking to actually goes through with it should be irrelevant - if someone's saying they want to, say, commit suicide, a response of "lol go do it" obviously is in the magical land of we-don't-need-that-around-here.)
EDIT: As far as DV's example statement... see, that's why I have a problem with a "I know it when I see it" standard. The right to call someone an idiot when they're doing something stupid should be available, which unfortunately means that people will also have the ability to call someone an idiot just because they disagree. Multiple people ragging on one guy should probably be handled under a separate rule, though. (And, really, in that situation I think the correct way to handle it is to remove the target temporarily. Hand the guy a short-term - 24 hours? - Gutter suspension, but specifically state in the PM about it that it's to try and defuse the situation rather than because of anything they did wrong.)
(Probably NSFW) So you may have heard I'm trying to write a TV series...
Most Nominated for Random Categories, 2013
And let's not forget that ZERO staff or gutter haters have responded to it, even though it's been asked 3-5 times now in this thread.
Oh and just to add. The edh board and it's torch storming against the RC, looks like it took its toll on the RC and we get this:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8591599&postcount=160
Then the arguing went on until the thread was locked.
But... the gutter.
Edit:
But calling people scrubs and noobs who don't know to build decks or play isn't?
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
I'm sorry to tell you that, but in this case it will be too late, what is said - is said. Maybe that is why they want to close the Gutter to avoid such issues in the future.
Another thing that I want to say is that by accusing each other you created a grand reality show and I only can guess how much bystanders are watching it right now. I dont like when people wash their dirty linen in public. I'm going to ask right now to make Community Issues a private subforum.
But the Gutterites started to sway me as the result of a lot of dirt they brought to light on the administration's side, and what I feel was some poor handling of this issue and others in the past.
But two wrongs mean both sides are wrong. If the Gutterites want any measure of respect from the regular userbase, they are going to need to start giving that same respect instead of continually bashing them. I've found value in a lot of the posts from the Gutterites and their supporters, but at this point I'm sick to death of hearing "you're ignorant" "shut up, the adults are talking" "stop posting," "nothing you say is valid," "you're lying" with no attempt to prove why, etc.
Is this hearsay so far from the truth? After so many accusations of ignorance and talking down to Gutter opponents, telling them to shut up because they didn't know what they were talking about, I applied a couple days ago, so I research the Gutter's content and be sure I had a better idea of the facts.
I read the Gutter somewhat thoroughly after my application was accepted and found a lot of truth and humor within, but it was all permeated by nastiness. Even a lot of the "Let's talk about [set]!" threads were chock full of posts that served no purpose but to mock the regular users of the site. Not always specific users, but the entire community in general. There were several threads dedicated solely to making fun of specific users, whether they had consented/applied to the Gutter or not.
It might not be trolling if they can't see it, but just because the targets of the Gutter's scorn can't see it, doesn't mean it's not bullying and it doesn't mean it's okay for the administration to foster it. For all the accusations of childishness being flung at the Gutter's opponents, for all the charges of hypocrisy, with varying merit, being flung around, the Gutter community really needs to take a step back and consider the virtues of what they are doing when they fight so hard to defend their right to snicker at other people behind their backs, because THAT is truly childish.
I would definitely consider worse that some mods were doing the same thing, commend Kijin and NS for apparently not being a part of it in there, and between this and the Kijin incident have actually come to agree with the calls for Ria to step down, but that in no way excuses such behavior on the Gutter's part, especially if the Gutterites want to think themselves superior to the average user, which is a very common thread among the posts in there and even the posts in here. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8595981&postcount=1429 PhantomS' reply here is a perfect example.
I keep hearing Gutterites make claims that "it's just good natured ribbing of each other, we can handle it," which is fine, and I think they should have the right to say whatever they want about each other if that's how they choose to conduct themselves, but this claim ceases to be true the instant that community's contempt is turned on anyone who has not agreed to be a part of their community.
And I know not ALL Gutterites are making the "watchdog" claim, but for the ones that are, it rings extremely hollow when it's come to light that the Gutter's focus has almost entirely been turned on staff members only in situations where the staffer's actions affected a Gutterite or the Gutter itself. I'll admit that in all the examples I've seen where this was the case, the Gutterites were actually in the right, but when it only happens if your homeboys are threatened or the perpetrator was already in your sights due to past personal grievances, then at that point, it's not checks and balances, it's gang warfare, and you should stop wearing it as a feather in your cap. If there are several examples I've missed of it being done on a non-Gutter-member's behalf, then I'll buy the claim, but I've been looking and failing to find any, as much as I want there to be.
I do believe that some Gutterites like NS and Kijin ultimately have mostly good, if not somewhat misguided, intentions and have been outstanding members of the community in the past. I have a soft spot for subversive elements that serve the greater good, even when they don't agree with me. But the more I see from the Gutter in general, the less and less I believe that as a community it's anything of the sort, and the more I feel that it's just an elitist cesspit that serves little purpose but to unite like-minded miscreants in the spirit of nastiness and thumbing your nose at authority, elevating its members above the rest of the community they loathe.
Go ahead, pick apart this post piece by piece, I don't care. I've said my piece and believe everything I said, so outside of lurking, I'm done with this issue now and look forward to the Gutter's closing, or preferably a compromise that lightens the tone and transforms it from a place to roast people its users don't like to a place where people can share irreverent, controversial jokes and good times with each other. It'd even be great if the longest thread on MTGS ever could somehow be kept alive. But the current attitudes being expressed in by most of its defenders are doing a disservice to this possibility or highlight the fact that it is either not something they would accept, or not the real reason they're so attached to the Gutter.
You're welcome.
Mon.Jun.25.12:36.am <> They should make a forum called The Butter
Mon.Jun.25.12:36.am <> The only thing you're allowed to talk about is food
That would defeat the entire purpose of this section. Also, these are the people that defended you and others in a bad position with internet and problems, and the champion of that cause was one of them, so...I'm wondering what's causing this opinion on the Gutter?
Here's a thought:
I want these rules instated in this thread, as of now, under penalty of warning or infraction:
Only people who can prove an interaction with Gutter members and use it as part of proof of their statements may post feedback on Gutter/Gutter Members.
Only people with proof or points t omake about them that can be backed up with public evidence or well-known events may insult/slander staff or Gutter members.
Only members who have had interaction with Staff in a way pertaining to this thread, or Gutter members, in a way besides indirect, and can have that person back them up, or prove it in some way, may post in this thread.
O SOMETHING. Because this is getting out of hand. If a judge catches me talking to players during their match, I get asked to leave.
Also, if Community Issues was Private, it would no longer be Community Issues, would be useless, and would make 0 sense. Please use your logic when making suggestions, because we all know that all of you are much smarter than this.
Done by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery signatures!
Here's the thing, in the discussed about thread, not one gutter member was telling the threader starter to do it and etc. it was the rest of the forum which got off scott free.
www.diestoremoval.com
A truly great petition