So you'd rather not defend yourself and let your actions in this thread, and as an aspiring (but possibly reformed) troll be what forms the opinions of the average user?
If an average user had a problem with me, they can take it to my helpdesk.
If an average user had a problem with me, they can take it to my helpdesk.
Seeings that you pride yourself on being, in your words, an " ******* " to people, would it yield any results? Didn't KCW use his position as gutter mod for trolling? Again, not out of the realm of possibility.
As someone who has suffered from depression let me tell you how backwards that logic is.
As I've said before, I'm not going to barf up my entire life story in this thread, but suffice to say I've got significant experience in this area.
Also the Gutter might pride itself on being somewhat brusque, but it doesn't encourage out-and-out maliciousness to people who can't handle it. Gutter members are people too, and they have their limits. Coarse japery is one thing, harassment another.
As a psychologist how can you possibly defend such actions?
Because everyone who studies psychology is a psychologist? You have absolutely no idea what kind of academic/professional field I'm actually in, so stop pretending that you do solely because I gave a list (which wasn't even all-inclusive, just what was relevant) of the things I've studied.
Is a good argument.
Not really, considering that those quotes are both out of context and from before the relevant time period. Using arguments from before the last Gutter debacle is basically an attempt to condemn the Gutter twice for the same actions.
And yes if you were ostracized how did that make you feel?
My experiences as a trans woman, one of the single most marginalized groups in Western culture, aren't remotely comparable to people being treated roughly on a forum. Don't insult me by trying to equate the two.
You also, again, can't say that "The gutter is never going to push someone to suicide" when you can't, without 100% certainty provide that it won't. You also can't imply that the gutter CAN'T or WON'T push something such as that.
I can't say with 100% certainty that I'm not going to experience spontaneous human combustion tomorrow, but I can still reasonably say that I'm not going to burst into flames for no apparent reason tomorrow.
The mere fact that it harbors such that can be seen as bullying is more than enough as well as circumvention of site-wide rules.
The Gutter does in fact have rules all members have to abide by. Members who break those rules are gutterbanned and potentially infracted/suspended depending on the specific offense.
And your arguing with a gay man, your point?
My point is that trans people are pretty much the single most marginalized groups in Western culture. However, as I've no interest in derailing this thread, this is the last I'm going to say on that subject.
You again, can't prove that it won't or can't, but LOVE how you defend people causing harm to others.
Say what you will about the Gutter, at least they aren't trying to remove a group's space on a semi-regular basis owing to some kind of long-standing feud.
As I've said before, I'm not going to barf up my entire life story in this thread, but suffice to say I've got significant experience in this area.
Also the Gutter might pride itself on being somewhat brusque, but it doesn't encourage out-and-out maliciousness to people who can't handle it. Gutter members are people too, and they have their limits. Coarse japery is one thing, harassment another.
Because everyone who studies psychology is a psychologist? You have absolutely no idea what kind of academic/professional field I'm actually in, so stop pretending that you do solely because I gave a list (which wasn't even all-inclusive, just what was relevant) of the things I've studied.
Not really, considering that those quotes are both out of context and from before the relevant time period. Using arguments from before the last Gutter debacle is basically an attempt to condemn the Gutter twice for the same actions.
My experiences as a trans woman, one of the single most marginalized groups in Western culture, aren't remotely comparable to people being treated roughly on a forum. Don't insult me by trying to equate the two.
I can't say with 100% certainty that I'm not going to experience spontaneous human combustion tomorrow, but I can still reasonably say that I'm not going to burst into flames for no apparent reason tomorrow.
The Gutter does in fact have rules all members have to abide by. Members who break those rules are gutterbanned and potentially infracted/suspended depending on the specific offense.
My point is that trans people are pretty much the single most marginalized groups in Western culture. However, as I've no interest in derailing this thread, this is the last I'm going to say on that subject.
Say what you will about the Gutter, at least they aren't trying to remove a group's space on a semi-regular basis owing to some kind of long-standing feud.
Then don't for a minute claim that anyone who studies psychology is a psychologist. Thats as insulting as saying if you pick up a medical book and read it you are a doctor.
You don't have a clue what your talking about, other then some personal experience, but your ignoring so much more knowledge.
Then don't for a minute claim that anyone who studies psychology is a psychologist.
I said I studied psychology among other things (which is true), but then you kind of ran off with it to the point where I had to point out to you that just because I studied psychology doesn't make me a psychologist, hence my sarcastic "Because everyone who studies psychology is a psychologist?" question in response to you calling me one, as nothing I'd said reasonably hinted at me being a psychologist. And you continue to call me ignorant solely because I don't agree with you, disregarding what I'm actually saying in favour of pretending I'm "supporting degeneracy." I think there's really nothing more to say to you in light of that—you clearly have no interest in understanding me, my arguments, or the circumstances and context regarding the Gutter.
Then don't for a minute claim that anyone who studies psychology is a psychologist. Thats as insulting as saying if you pick up a medical book and read it you are a doctor.
You don't have a clue what your talking about, other then some personal experience, but your ignoring so much more knowledge.
Laughable that I am going to use this argument.
But,
You are so ignorant on this subject.
FYI this ^^^ is trolling and not constructive AT ALL.
You just invalidated anything you have said and will say in the thread.
*sips tea* good day sir.
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The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
I said I studied psychology among other things (which is true), but then you kind of ran off with it to the point where I had to point out to you that just because I studied psychology doesn't make me a psychologist, hence my sarcastic "Because everyone who studies psychology is a psychologist?" question in response to you calling me one, as nothing I'd said reasonably hinted at me being a psychologist. And you continue to call me ignorant solely because I don't agree with you, disregarding what I'm actually saying in favour of pretending I'm "supporting degeneracy." I think there's really nothing more to say to you in light of that—you clearly have no interest in understanding me, my arguments, or the circumstances and context regarding the Gutter.
You are ignorant with your understanding of Cyber Bullying and its effect on people. Please don't speak on a subject that you don't understand and in a way that sounds as if you have an authority. If I need to I can start pulling out research articles. I don't have interest in doing so, but I can.
You are supporting degeneracy, it might be an old quote, but I find it hard when reading things like that to think that the people posting in their have changed their ways much. Anyone want to confirm or deny that?
FYI this ^^^ is trolling and not constructive AT ALL.
You just invalidated anything you have said and will say in the thread.
*sips tea* good day sir.
So would you submit that anyone who has been guilty of trolling does not have any valid points to be made or opinions to be heard? That wouldn't be a great tactic...
So would you submit that anyone who has been guilty of trolling does not have any valid points to be made or opinions to be heard? That wouldn't be a great tactic...
That would be an excellent tactic. Why did I miss this?
I take back everything I said, he is totally right.
Can we not turn this thread into yet another debate on the plight of transgender people
I said that I've no intention of doing so, and I plan on ignoring anyone who tries to continue that line of discussion.
Teia you say your not offended by the gutter but you are insulted by anyone claiming to know what you go through
Being offended by something and insulted by something are two different things. The former is more severe than the latter—I can be insulted by something but not offended by it.
I said that I've no intention of doing so, and I plan on ignoring anyone who tries to continue that line of discussion.
Being offended by something and insulted by something are two different things. The former is more severe than the latter—I can be insulted by something but not offended by it.
Wait.... they mean the exact same thing verbatim..... and you dodged the question.
Erm no they are linguistic synonyms , So some clarification on that front may be needed.
Basically when I say "I find that insulting" or equivalent, I'm saying I see the thing in question (such as Bitsy tokenizing me earlier in the thread) as being an insult, regardless of its original intent. When I say I find something offensive, I mean I'm actually offended by it.
So would you submit that anyone who has been guilty of trolling does not have any valid points to be made or opinions to be heard? That wouldn't be a great tactic...
If you're attempting to have a constructive conversation about the negative effects of trolling and then you troll some one, then I'm not going to take you seriously for he rest of the conversation.
And no I won't submit to that. It's asinine. If I show my ass in a heated conversation I either apologize or be done with it since at that point nothing is getting accomplished. It doesn't mean from then on out anything I say is invalid.
You and DV are showing your asses by being smug, assuming, and unmovable on your stance. You're just here to voice your bias opinions with no room for compromise.
Again. *sips tea*
Good day sir.
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The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
You and DV are showing your asses by being smug, assuming, and unmovable on your stance. You're just here to voice your bias opinions with no room for compromise.
How are we the only ones that are, allegedly, not willing to compromise? This thread is over a thousand posts of biased opinions, mostly by people who are unmovable in their stance.
Would any more Gutter members like to take a crack at the questions I asked earlier?
What do you think MTGS will be like with no gutter? What do you think it would be like if the gutter never existed?
The stuff you guys are currently arguing has been argued to death already and people are just trolling responses out of people now, TomServo holds a pretty obvious grudge against the gutter and hasn't made a useful post this entire thread and D_V is pretty much talking about nothing using a lot of words, if you are going to keep posting at least post something productive instead of arguing about the same junk that has been argued about 3 or 4 pages ago, I know this topic is long but you should really be reading it all and if you aren't then just don't comment please.
Would any more Gutter members like to take a crack at the questions I asked earlier?
What do you think MTGS will be like with no gutter? What do you think it would be like if the gutter never existed?
I will answer your question when you stop hiding behind a gimmick and reveal who you are and possibly the real reason why you have such a horrible grudge against the gutter, you are not even posting rationally any more.
Would any more Gutter members like to take a crack at the questions I asked earlier?
What do you think MTGS will be like with no gutter? What do you think it would be like if the gutter never existed?
That question can't be answered with any certainty or accuracy. It's an irrelevant question that leads to nothing. Here's a stab.....
~Butteblues would probably still be on the site.
~KCW would've left a long time ago due to complete boredom.
~Abusive mods would be running around rampant without a watchdog to call them out.
~You (TomServo) wouldn't be a whiny turd looking for an ax to grind.
~The site would probably not get the amount of traffic it gets because the Rumor Mill ain't what it used to be with the "planned leaks" currently in effect worldwide.
~Many other portions of this site wouldn't exist because the interest would've waned due to lack of real "Spoilers"
Without a Gutter at all....which is where we are headed....people will leave the site. People will vent elsewhere and get infracted for it for no good reason. The site will become a police state with all decisions made by rianalnn and agreed upon or face bannination and/or de-modding.
But much like Jurassic Park...the Gutter will find a way.
"Talkin outta turn....That's a paddlin'. Starin' at my sandals....That's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe....You better believe that's a paddlin'!" --Jasper
A bit offtopic, but I've been reading the discussion, and now I want to check it out for myself, and I've a question: where is the gutter? I can't find it anywhere on MtGS, and I think I looked everywhere -.-''
It's only visible if you're a member. To apply for membership, follow the "User CP" link at the top of the page. On the left hand side, under "Networking", you'll see a link called "Group Memberships".
I find that last argument in an of itself to be complete and utterly backwards.
Basically, you are saying that peoples feelings might be hurt, but that no one would commit suicide over their feelings being hurt. As someone who has suffered from depression let me tell you how backwards that logic is.
Anything can set a person off. Anything. And then sure with that logic the whole site should be banned.
But here is the rub. The gutter actually prides itself in being mean and spiteful to members. No only that, but it also encourages it.
As a psychologist how can you possibly defend such actions? You are actively supporting degeneracy. You would support people who actually think that something like this
You would defend that? You would defend people that think its ok to attack others, talk about people behind their back? Form cliques? What because you are part of that it makes it ok?
I have a serious problem with you going near any person and giving them advice if you think these behaviors these comments like the one above are alright.
And yes if you were ostracized how did that make you feel? And how do you think that would make others feel? And no being online and even for petty things does not make it easier or better, it being over something silly actually makes it worse because it is much harder to rationalize.
I stand by that statement.
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Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
It's a cute wall of text, but the only original point made is the gutterban. His proposed solution would be to turn it into the NSFW version of the Speakeasy, which is not going to fly, because that test failed.
1) The gutter has not put forward a comprehensive argument rebutting the assertion that the gutter spills over into the main forums. And why we should treat spillage as isolated incidents when it keeps happening and the mere existence of the gutter lends itself to such outbursts.
2) Gutter oversight being doomed to fail and also lend itself towards negative impact in the community.
Those seemed to be the main points from skimming it again.
A lot of people hold legitimate grudges against two or three members of the gutter.
It would be better suited to say something along the lines of this. You can claim that we're all the same, but it's just not true.
The Gutter is quite different now from what it was in the past. Even the former members that came back like god_child feel that the gutter isn't the same.
You claim to have some kind of grudge against us, but even earlier in this thread you were on our side. Even after NS posted some of the compliments about you from the Gutter. I'd venture to say that Grudges against ENTIRE USER GROUPS are unfounded because the membership changes so frequently that there couldn't possibly be a common enemy after any substantial amount of time.
1) The gutter has not put forward a comprehensive argument rebutting the assertion that the gutter spills over into the main forums. And why we should treat spillage as isolated incidents when it keeps happening and the mere existence of the gutter lends itself to such outbursts.
The most recent "spilling" of the gutter into the main forums, IIRC, have been this thread and the previous attempt at closing the gutter. BOTH were provoked by the staff, which is just a fact.
Now, this is not to say that members of the gutter have not been guilty of "spilling" into the main forums in the past. For example, the incident at woopaleen's help desk comes to mind. The thing about that though, was that woop was just plain moderating poorly. IIRC, the entire incident stemmed from an infraction that I received for something that I had never received a warning for because woop determined that I, being a member of the gutter, deserved no such warning. The infraction was ultimately reversed because, as I said, it was a bad infraction, and all complaints against woop were legitimate.
I did not read much of kijin's resignation thread, but this was apparently another "gutter" issue... though it really had nothing to do with the gutter either. Kijin had legitimately strong feelings on the matter to call any of that trolling would be patently false.
For the most part, the public gutter displays have been instances from the distant past that many current gutter members weren't even around for. For the most part we just want to be left alone these days.
2) Gutter oversight being doomed to fail and also lend itself towards negative impact in the community.
Could you explain how gutter oversight is doomed to fail? Is the argument that mods can be gutterbanned? Because nobody is gutterbanned if they don't make awful posts. If they can just lurk or actually contribute well to the gutter then there is no problem with this. It really shouldn't be too hard for moderators to understand that they only get gutterbanned because they make posts that make our eyes bleed in the gutter.
The best example I can think of was nai's stay in the gutter. From his first post it was very obvious that he wanted to post whatever garbage he wanted that nobody in the gutter wanted to talk to him about. Rather than stopping posting he continued to troll the gutter with his nonsense. It shouldn't be that hard to realize when you don't fit in.
Now, I'm going to ask this and I only want an answer from people that actually have any power to make decisions- Where do we stand on working towards a compromise here? Good suggestions that I have seen involved not allowing any new members into the gutter and promoting a new gutter staff that don't have a negative history with the current administration. I'm sure I missed plenty of good ideas because, frankly, this thread is filled with a lot of useless posts, so if ideas for a compromise could be reiterated and people posting nonsense could stop that would be great.
Gutterites have shown an obvious lack of care whether or not they have the support of regular members. Critics 2 the gutter are morons and supporters are paragons of logic. For every step u achieve for ur cause, the trolls take u 2 steps back in our eyes.
Could say the same in reverse considering in my opinion there has been more trolling Against the gutter then by the gutter. Its like some of yous treat it as if it justified to do such things. Some doing it more then others. But then again the mods are basicly allowing it and there distaste of the fact this will not go away is starting to show its ugly side to a point I could say in my 2 cents the staff has a bigger issue among themselves then they like to admit now.
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How am I NOT banned
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If an average user had a problem with me, they can take it to my helpdesk.
Seeings that you pride yourself on being, in your words, an " ******* " to people, would it yield any results? Didn't KCW use his position as gutter mod for trolling? Again, not out of the realm of possibility.
Trolling infraction issued. -viper
As I've said before, I'm not going to barf up my entire life story in this thread, but suffice to say I've got significant experience in this area.
Also the Gutter might pride itself on being somewhat brusque, but it doesn't encourage out-and-out maliciousness to people who can't handle it. Gutter members are people too, and they have their limits. Coarse japery is one thing, harassment another.
Because everyone who studies psychology is a psychologist? You have absolutely no idea what kind of academic/professional field I'm actually in, so stop pretending that you do solely because I gave a list (which wasn't even all-inclusive, just what was relevant) of the things I've studied.
Not really, considering that those quotes are both out of context and from before the relevant time period. Using arguments from before the last Gutter debacle is basically an attempt to condemn the Gutter twice for the same actions.
My experiences as a trans woman, one of the single most marginalized groups in Western culture, aren't remotely comparable to people being treated roughly on a forum. Don't insult me by trying to equate the two.
I can't say with 100% certainty that I'm not going to experience spontaneous human combustion tomorrow, but I can still reasonably say that I'm not going to burst into flames for no apparent reason tomorrow.
The Gutter does in fact have rules all members have to abide by. Members who break those rules are gutterbanned and potentially infracted/suspended depending on the specific offense.
My point is that trans people are pretty much the single most marginalized groups in Western culture. However, as I've no interest in derailing this thread, this is the last I'm going to say on that subject.
Say what you will about the Gutter, at least they aren't trying to remove a group's space on a semi-regular basis owing to some kind of long-standing feud.
Then don't for a minute claim that anyone who studies psychology is a psychologist. Thats as insulting as saying if you pick up a medical book and read it you are a doctor.
You don't have a clue what your talking about, other then some personal experience, but your ignoring so much more knowledge.
Laughable that I am going to use this argument.
But,
You are so ignorant on this subject.
I said I studied psychology among other things (which is true), but then you kind of ran off with it to the point where I had to point out to you that just because I studied psychology doesn't make me a psychologist, hence my sarcastic "Because everyone who studies psychology is a psychologist?" question in response to you calling me one, as nothing I'd said reasonably hinted at me being a psychologist. And you continue to call me ignorant solely because I don't agree with you, disregarding what I'm actually saying in favour of pretending I'm "supporting degeneracy." I think there's really nothing more to say to you in light of that—you clearly have no interest in understanding me, my arguments, or the circumstances and context regarding the Gutter.
FYI this ^^^ is trolling and not constructive AT ALL.
You just invalidated anything you have said and will say in the thread.
*sips tea* good day sir.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
You are ignorant with your understanding of Cyber Bullying and its effect on people. Please don't speak on a subject that you don't understand and in a way that sounds as if you have an authority. If I need to I can start pulling out research articles. I don't have interest in doing so, but I can.
You are supporting degeneracy, it might be an old quote, but I find it hard when reading things like that to think that the people posting in their have changed their ways much. Anyone want to confirm or deny that?
I don't really see it that way, and that argument doesn't make any sense.
Basically what you said was, you were kinda rude to someone so that makes everything you said bad?
Alrighty then.
=/
So would you submit that anyone who has been guilty of trolling does not have any valid points to be made or opinions to be heard? That wouldn't be a great tactic...
That would be an excellent tactic. Why did I miss this?
I take back everything I said, he is totally right.
I said that I've no intention of doing so, and I plan on ignoring anyone who tries to continue that line of discussion.
Being offended by something and insulted by something are two different things. The former is more severe than the latter—I can be insulted by something but not offended by it.
Wait.... they mean the exact same thing verbatim..... and you dodged the question.
Basically when I say "I find that insulting" or equivalent, I'm saying I see the thing in question (such as Bitsy tokenizing me earlier in the thread) as being an insult, regardless of its original intent. When I say I find something offensive, I mean I'm actually offended by it.
So where are we now?
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If you're attempting to have a constructive conversation about the negative effects of trolling and then you troll some one, then I'm not going to take you seriously for he rest of the conversation.
And no I won't submit to that. It's asinine. If I show my ass in a heated conversation I either apologize or be done with it since at that point nothing is getting accomplished. It doesn't mean from then on out anything I say is invalid.
You and DV are showing your asses by being smug, assuming, and unmovable on your stance. You're just here to voice your bias opinions with no room for compromise.
Again. *sips tea*
Good day sir.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
How are we the only ones that are, allegedly, not willing to compromise? This thread is over a thousand posts of biased opinions, mostly by people who are unmovable in their stance.
Would any more Gutter members like to take a crack at the questions I asked earlier?
What do you think MTGS will be like with no gutter? What do you think it would be like if the gutter never existed?
Barning this.
The stuff you guys are currently arguing has been argued to death already and people are just trolling responses out of people now, TomServo holds a pretty obvious grudge against the gutter and hasn't made a useful post this entire thread and D_V is pretty much talking about nothing using a lot of words, if you are going to keep posting at least post something productive instead of arguing about the same junk that has been argued about 3 or 4 pages ago, I know this topic is long but you should really be reading it all and if you aren't then just don't comment please.
I will answer your question when you stop hiding behind a gimmick and reveal who you are and possibly the real reason why you have such a horrible grudge against the gutter, you are not even posting rationally any more.
That question can't be answered with any certainty or accuracy. It's an irrelevant question that leads to nothing. Here's a stab.....
~Butteblues would probably still be on the site.
~KCW would've left a long time ago due to complete boredom.
~Abusive mods would be running around rampant without a watchdog to call them out.
~You (TomServo) wouldn't be a whiny turd looking for an ax to grind.
~The site would probably not get the amount of traffic it gets because the Rumor Mill ain't what it used to be with the "planned leaks" currently in effect worldwide.
~Many other portions of this site wouldn't exist because the interest would've waned due to lack of real "Spoilers"
Without a Gutter at all....which is where we are headed....people will leave the site. People will vent elsewhere and get infracted for it for no good reason. The site will become a police state with all decisions made by rianalnn and agreed upon or face bannination and/or de-modding.
But much like Jurassic Park...the Gutter will find a way.
Infraction for flaming issued. r~
It's only visible if you're a member. To apply for membership, follow the "User CP" link at the top of the page. On the left hand side, under "Networking", you'll see a link called "Group Memberships".
A lot of people hold legitimate grudges against the gutter.
Fixed that for you pal.
I stand by that statement.
1) The gutter has not put forward a comprehensive argument rebutting the assertion that the gutter spills over into the main forums. And why we should treat spillage as isolated incidents when it keeps happening and the mere existence of the gutter lends itself to such outbursts.
2) Gutter oversight being doomed to fail and also lend itself towards negative impact in the community.
Those seemed to be the main points from skimming it again.
It would be better suited to say something along the lines of this. You can claim that we're all the same, but it's just not true.
The Gutter is quite different now from what it was in the past. Even the former members that came back like god_child feel that the gutter isn't the same.
You claim to have some kind of grudge against us, but even earlier in this thread you were on our side. Even after NS posted some of the compliments about you from the Gutter. I'd venture to say that Grudges against ENTIRE USER GROUPS are unfounded because the membership changes so frequently that there couldn't possibly be a common enemy after any substantial amount of time.
The most recent "spilling" of the gutter into the main forums, IIRC, have been this thread and the previous attempt at closing the gutter. BOTH were provoked by the staff, which is just a fact.
Now, this is not to say that members of the gutter have not been guilty of "spilling" into the main forums in the past. For example, the incident at woopaleen's help desk comes to mind. The thing about that though, was that woop was just plain moderating poorly. IIRC, the entire incident stemmed from an infraction that I received for something that I had never received a warning for because woop determined that I, being a member of the gutter, deserved no such warning. The infraction was ultimately reversed because, as I said, it was a bad infraction, and all complaints against woop were legitimate.
I did not read much of kijin's resignation thread, but this was apparently another "gutter" issue... though it really had nothing to do with the gutter either. Kijin had legitimately strong feelings on the matter to call any of that trolling would be patently false.
For the most part, the public gutter displays have been instances from the distant past that many current gutter members weren't even around for. For the most part we just want to be left alone these days.
Could you explain how gutter oversight is doomed to fail? Is the argument that mods can be gutterbanned? Because nobody is gutterbanned if they don't make awful posts. If they can just lurk or actually contribute well to the gutter then there is no problem with this. It really shouldn't be too hard for moderators to understand that they only get gutterbanned because they make posts that make our eyes bleed in the gutter.
The best example I can think of was nai's stay in the gutter. From his first post it was very obvious that he wanted to post whatever garbage he wanted that nobody in the gutter wanted to talk to him about. Rather than stopping posting he continued to troll the gutter with his nonsense. It shouldn't be that hard to realize when you don't fit in.
Now, I'm going to ask this and I only want an answer from people that actually have any power to make decisions- Where do we stand on working towards a compromise here? Good suggestions that I have seen involved not allowing any new members into the gutter and promoting a new gutter staff that don't have a negative history with the current administration. I'm sure I missed plenty of good ideas because, frankly, this thread is filled with a lot of useless posts, so if ideas for a compromise could be reiterated and people posting nonsense could stop that would be great.
Could say the same in reverse considering in my opinion there has been more trolling Against the gutter then by the gutter. Its like some of yous treat it as if it justified to do such things. Some doing it more then others. But then again the mods are basicly allowing it and there distaste of the fact this will not go away is starting to show its ugly side to a point I could say in my 2 cents the staff has a bigger issue among themselves then they like to admit now.