As it is it appears that Kijin fired a salvo simply because he's upset. He didn't do it because he feels some moral obligation to the forum.
To clarify again (very post hoc I know), while I was on staff, the word "cyberbullying" was never a word thrown around in the Mod Lounge, and there was no "moral witch hunt" on the part of the staff like this.
If the goal of the staff is to rout their very liberal, loaded definition of the word "cyberbullying" from these forums, and implement policy huffing and puffing about how disastrous to the fabric of MTGS society such attitudes will have, my point was that they needn't look further than their own private subforum to find such horrors of the interwebs.
I don't think the Gutter is a problem, particularly after the repeated admission that they hadn't done nothin' before the hammer was dropped. I don't think people just being their gross, vitriolic selves is a problem if you're not doing it as a song and dance routine for the public. But the Administration decided that there wasn't enough dancing on our forums, so I brought a mix tape. I don't think its fair for the people who claim to be our moral bastions to condone the same behavior among themselves they punish me for in public. My moral outrage is hypocrisy and inconsistency by the people running the forums, I don't give two ****s (or one ****, for that matter) if they call me a ****** behind closed doors. All the more power to them.
I personally don't think the Gutter members would be at all open to discussion about making the Gutter something apart from what it is, especially with how quickly the cries of 'rian's puppets' make their way forward. Hence I agree with the conclusion reached by the senior staff.
that's why this is about you and your corruption. because you took your power and walked on with your ball instead of asking if anyone else wanted to play.
you didn't think. that was the problem.
you said it yourself, think, think, think, then post, but also maybe don't post after all. except instead of posting, you implemented a policy without any goddamn forethought. instead of thinking, you just acted.
did you for a single second actually ask instead of just thinking about asking, even after implementing an entire subforum made for just that? no, instead you come in here hanging your head feeling sorry for yourself and begging people to stroke your e-***** over the "good things" you did, while completely disregarding very present, very recent bad things you have done and are still actively doing.
great job, you're the man we should all look up to: fail, complain about people admonishing your failure, ******** about it later.
I feel like you can't drop this because you are convinced everyone is talking about you in the thread.
Without checking, I can assure you that you are not. Your trolling is so 2000-late.
You didn't check others have and other confirmed that me and several other posters were mentioned in that thread.
In the end it isn't about me. it is about the hypocrasy of this staff that hands out warnings, infractions and suspension to the same behavior that they are doing themselves.
yet they hide under this umberalla of we do no wrong, and if you have a problem take it up with an admin who does nothing but protect them. that is not the so called tolerance or transparency that they want.
Your trolling is so 2000-late
sorry no trolling here dude. you have the wrong person. if you would like a troll send me a pm and i can name you a few of them.
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Yeah, obviously if that's how you bring it up, that's how people are going to respond. If you drop a bomb like that, it's going to blow up -- that's how bombs work, generally.
That would be the case if they indiscriminately threw out that they were closing the gutter down and basically there's nothing you can do or say about it because we're just doing this now on a lark.
Generally, people don't like change, or at least approach it apprehensively at best. When you're considering a sweeping change like this, and keep all of the discussion about it behind closed doors to yourself, you give yourself bad PR and open yourself up to counter strikes. I keep repeating, "If the issue was cyber bullying, why didn't they look in their own subforum?," not because I like to hear myself speak (though I do), but because it's inconsistent with basically everything we're being told here. That's a major point against the reasoning behind the Gutter closing -- it's not a matter of "We are making sweeping changes site-wide to better create an air of hugging and kindness" -- it's "We're closing down an active part of the forums that has established a community that has thrived and, recently, kept to itself without further detriment to the site to better create an air of hugging and kindness -- but only to this section, only now, and without reason, there is no real room for discussion because we already had it."
Months ago, we opened the moderate-discussion zone that, at present, has had I think about 4 issue threads raised in it. All of them were concluded pretty amicably; there was no main-site spill over, there was definitely some level of ire, but it was contained, controlled, dispelled, and turned into something that was productive for the parties involved (I would even spill the beans on those threads because there's seriously nothing bad in them after the initial vitriolic spout in some instances). Discussions were had in them in spite of ill will between Gutter and non-Gutter Staff.
If there was an issue with the Gutter, it seems that would be the best place to raise the issue. If the issue was one beyond repair, it would be better served meted out in private than in this bomb shell of a thread. Is there a chance that if the Gutter were still to be closed even after discussion there would be a CI thread of ginormous size? Likely! Would it be under much less dubious circumstances, and with more credibility, trust, and openness on the part of staff? Also likely, if not definitely. Maybe a middle ground could be reached, maybe it would result in more restrictions, or making the Gutter open to the public, or something similar. We don't know because we never had those discussions, we were just told we're cyberbullies by people who are ****ing masters and that was that.
It sounds like their biggest issue is having a section of MTGS that doesn't abide by some official ruleset and is impervious if not immune to the regulation of official staff members. Because of its lawless nature (and possibly history of events) they cannot address real issues like the atmosphere it may bring, the feelings it may hurt or real consequences like cyberbullying. Even if insult or bashing is kept within the gutter, its still cyber bullying going on in within the gutter.
Many have insisted that nothing the gutter does affects the rest of the forum. Some have demanded links and examples proving otherwise. But if you have a hostile atmosphere within a subsection, it will absolutely affect the atmosphere outside of it, so long as anybody who participates in that hostile atmosphere also participates in other sections of the forum. They carry it with them in their attitude, posting style and general attitude toward other users on MTGS.
That may indeed be unfair, as a handful who have done it and spoiled the MTGS experience for others doesn't necessarily reflect the gutter community on the whole.
This goes back to the various discussions about the negative atmosphere in various sections of MTGS where people troll just subtle enough it falls outside of infractions or warnings, but still makes reading crappy for others.
The only real way to address that is to address the atmosphere of the forum itself and what standards its members should be held to. Thats near impossible to do if you have entire sections that are not upheld to ANY standard, are immune to staff moderation and do not value a "pleasant atmosphere" across MTGS.
Yes. You have a very valid point that without discussion, other alternatives and possibilities can never be reached. But honestly - if the staff came and said "Gutter will have to adhere to either the main forum rules or the NSFW ruleset to address these above concerns regarding the atmosphere and behavior we want to promote across this forum. This will now be enforced by official staff." would you really be on board with that? Immediately after Ria stated that, it was rejected.
Thats probably the best 'thoughts and opinions' I can offer on that topic, as obviously I am not well versed in gutter history and past events, nor have any "real" qualified explenation for any of it.
That being a seperate topic, from peoples poor behavior here, trolling, disrespecting forum staff, general lack of understanding behind forum government and practices, and those who have nothing to do with the entire topic other than incite war with admins and make demands over petty crap, like an installed VB mod.
Sene has had a personal emergency. He will post when he is able.
yeah, sene said he's dealing with IRL stuff, which is important in any context. I'd give sene a complete pass for as long as he needs at the moment because IRL is IRL isn't internet. Even if he literally gave the final word on this whole charade, he's got real things to deal with.
It sounds like their biggest issue is having a section of MTGS that doesn't abide by some official ruleset and is impervious if not immune to the regulation of official staff members.
I believe that is your interpretation and not anything documented anywhere.
Because of its lawless nature (and possibly history of events) they cannot address real issues like the atmosphere it may bring, the feelings it may hurt or real consequences like cyberbullying. Even if insult or bashing is kept within the gutter, its still cyber bullying going on in within the gutter.
That is literally not something they have said to this point. In fact, they directly address the "real issues" by bringing them up and not addressing them beyond that ("no specific instances will be listed, etc").
And if it is still cyberbullying, why now? Why without warning is the section being closed rather than behavior discussed? And why allow it to go on for so long until they themselves are called out on it by the very people affected by the hammer dropping? And why grant those people with trust and power over the forums when they are not capable of upholding the same, higher standards of themselves without the very people they're hammer-dropping calling them on their ****? Why do I even have to say any of this?
Many have insisted that nothing the gutter does affects the rest of the forum. Some have demanded links and examples proving otherwise. But if you have a hostile atmosphere within a subsection, it will absolutely affect the atmosphere outside of it, so long as anybody who participates in that hostile atmosphere also participates in other sections of the forum. They carry it with them in their attitude, posting style and general attitude toward other users on MTGS.
A good 100% of the people who had not previously entertained these threads in the past posting in this thread had not heard of the Gutter before today. This is a pattern seen in virtually every thread of this type that has come up. Clearly the influence of the Gutter is not nearly as pervasive as anyone on this entire forum believes it to be, and to say otherwise is literally making **** up.
That may indeed be unfair, as a handful who have done it and spoiled the MTGS experience for others doesn't necessarily reflect the gutter community on the whole.
This goes back to the various discussions about the negative atmosphere in various sections of MTGS where people troll just subtle enough it falls outside of infractions or warnings, but still makes reading crappy for others.
The admission of the Administration was the Gutter hasn't been involved in such activities (as a whole) for some many moons, and the only instances of drama prior to this was following outbursts over matters unrelated to the Gutter (dissatisfaction with staff members, per my resignation/firing, and per "helpdesk" discussions). It's not about the Gutter, it's about the people posting in the Gutter being tied together for the sake of enhancing drama, and I can honestly say that it is just as much the fault of Gutter posters as it is the staff and "ignorant" forum users that lump them together.
The only real way to address that is to address the atmosphere of the forum itself and what standards its members should be held to. Thats near impossible to do if you have entire sections that are not upheld to ANY standard, are immune to staff moderation and do not value a "pleasant atmosphere" across MTGS.
So tell us to uphold a standard. Suggest changes. Push and prod. None of that was done; a bomb was strapped to the bottom of our bus that's set to blow when we move under 40 miles per hour, we were given a heads up after the fact, and then an Administrator opened the issue to public comment here. What's more alarming is rianalnn's admission that he didn't think to use that section in the first place, it was all an after thought of 50 pages of drama.
Yes. You have a very valid point that without discussion, other alternatives and possibilities can never be reached. But honestly - if the staff came and said "Gutter will have to adhere to either the main forum rules or the NSFW ruleset to address these above concerns regarding the atmosphere and behavior we want to promote across this forum. This will now be enforced by official staff." would you really be on board with that? Immediately after Ria stated that, it was rejected.
Maybe we would! Maybe we wouldn't! We'll never know because it wasn't brought up until well after the fact.
The fact of the matter is, this situation would have happened if we disagreed no matter what, but asking us about it first leaves the option open that things will change for the benefit of all without any sore rears.
If my point is valid, let me continue raising valid points: what harm comes from consulting us about a change of direction instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, especially with a given arena for specifically such a discussion made open?
Tordeck, this thread is not a "Lynch staff member X" thread. If you believe rianalnn's conduct to be unsatisfactory, you should take it up on his helpdesk, with another admin, or in the staff inbox. This thread is not the place for bringing up old grudges. Also, whatever complaint you lodge should be grounded in concrete and referenceable facts. This cloak and dagger style of posting neither contributes productively to discussion nor serves to effect any change or action.
Hello ER. I see you already posted ITT. Could you please answer my previous question? Thanks in advance.
A good 100% of the people who had not previously entertained these threads in the past posting in this thread had not heard of the Gutter before today. This is a pattern seen in virtually every thread of this type that has come up. Clearly the influence of the Gutter is not nearly as pervasive as anyone on this entire forum believes it to be, and to say otherwise is literally making **** up.
The connection is really easily made without even being aware of such a subsection.
Individuals A, B and C seen around the forum in various sections including CI quoting people and insulting others with either [Guttermod] in their sig or now known to be part of that community. Connection made. I'd list them for you, but that was seen as innapropriate earlier.
Inviduals C, D and E seen in previous incidents, previous threads including but not limited to Kijins massive exit who are also here raising the same drama, accusations, walls of text and slander who are in fact, "now known" to be some of the most vocal in this gutter community. Connection defintely made. It is easily seen the drama brought to this forum by that handful now and in the past, EVEN as a new person.
Invidivuals D, E and F who cannot show respect for forum staff and voice their concerns regarding staff in a proper manor without being insultive, drag out personal issues or display behavior that would hardly be tolerated elsewhere. These individuals so very fortunate this forum lets personal insults toward the staff slide. This is probably my driving force in this thread. Even on the worst forums (like WC3, who allows elitists and trolls to run rampant insulting any user the like) they swiftly ban people who make personal insults about the staff.
Its really easy for casual posters, new posters like myself, and non gutter users to see the might of this thread and say "Yes please, do purge this site of its trolls, drama queens and poor behavior, because it really sucks to be randomly **** on by individuals A, D and F when you least expect it. Thank you!!"
Good. After reading the reactions and posts of those involved with "The Gutter" in this thread, I fully support its closing.
This is hugely illogical. You can't use behavior that is only exhibited in response to what is perceived as unfair treatment as evidence for said unfair treatment.
This same reaction would occur of any number of other forums were shut down. That doesn't mean the action itself would be warranted.
...This amount of outrage is generated by a subforum with 200 members? Seriously? I've glanced at the Gutter drama before, and I figured you had at least a few thousand to generate such huge threads the moment the Gutter is mentioned.
Good. After reading the reactions and posts of those involved with "The Gutter" in this thread, I fully support its closing.
This is kinda my thought...at one point I was a member of the gutter and enjoyed being in there for all of 3 days or so, but it seems like the overall reaction hasn't been, "well is there a way we can fix this" but something to the effect of "Rabble rabble rabble, I think this mod is **** and is abusing his power, Rabble rabble rabble." Nothing directly against the individuals in the gutter, but I salute it's passing.
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A huge facet of this issue is exactly how the Gutter is perceived externally (regardless that Nis is a Gutter lurker).
I am going to say something about this because this post really irks me. Basing actions on perception is wrong. Most of the problems in this world are based on perception and not facts. In fact if you look throughout history you will find that perception and not facts has been the cause of many atrocities from genocide to slavery to war to even modern day bullying and racism.
Taking actions based on perception is not the right way to deal with things.
I don't really understand this thread. When the gutter was 'closed' before, the action made sense. It was in response to repeated questionable behavior by various members of the gutter. But this was many months ago, and things seem to have been completely quiet and calm since then. But somehow out of nowhere, it is determined that the gutter should be shut down? Because of the following:
Can you provide evidence of this? I visit many parts of the site, and I don't see evidence of this at all. And the parts of the site I visit most(debate, mafia, WCT) are the parts where you would most expect this kind of behavior to 'leak' to.
Really, it just seems like this came down to a Staff mentality of 'we hate the gutter', and all of the staff that cared enough about doing things the right way have moved on, so anti-gutter sentiment prevailed. In reality, if the Staff wants to shut down the gutter, clearly no one can do anything about it. And the gutter plainly recognizes that. It is still perfectly reasonable for them to call you out on lack of transparency/lack of consistency in your actions when threads like the ModCave ones mentioned are still being used regularly. You can't be THAT concerned about this type of behavior if you were going still promoting it amongst Staff members last week(or whenever).
I also don't think that the behavior of gutterites right now should be held against them too harshly. They are obviously in an agitated state and are going to make some regrettable choices. They should still be accountable for their actions(Madding's suspension was just, for example), but trying to use this behavior in support of the gutter being closed to begin with is not legitimate.
I don't usually agree with Cyan, but when I do I agree a lot. I think this post perfectly encapsulates the entire issue.
...This amount of outrage is generated by a subforum with 200 members? Seriously? I've glanced at the Gutter drama before, and I figured you had at least a few thousand to generate such huge threads the moment the Gutter is mentioned.
Threads are big, because of haters posting, as well as people needing explanations (such as yourself*) and staff members (namely globals at this point) not showing their faces in here to answer simple questions and give better reasons other than "because Gutter".
*Do you see that this thread is two post larger because you posted in it and I had to explain things to you? And perhaps you will answer something, and someone else will reply to you as well? I hope that explains to you why this thread is about to become the largest thread in CI that is not a list of banned members.
This is hugely illogical. You can't use behavior that is only exhibited in response to what is perceived as unfair treatment as evidence for said unfair treatment.
This same reaction would occur of any number of other forums were shut down.
I certainly hope not.
That doesn't mean the action itself would be warranted.
I spend a lot of time in the Mafia subforum. If it was suddenly closed, my reaction would be to try to hold a calm, reasoned discussion with the mods - and if their answer came down to "This is not something we want to have as part of our site" I would accept it and move on.
If a bunch of other people from Mafia reacted to the same thing with rage, insults, accusations and recriminations, I would think "Wow, those people are a lot less pleasant than I thought. I guess the mods made a better decision than I realized."
I certainly hope not.
I spend a lot of time in the Mafia subforum. If it was suddenly closed, my reaction would be to try to hold a calm, reasoned discussion with the mods - and if their answer came down to "This is not something we want to have as part of our site" I would accept it and move on.
If a bunch of other people from Mafia reacted to the same thing with rage, insults, accusations and recriminations, I would think "Wow, those people are a lot less pleasant than I thought. I guess the mods made a better decision than I realized."
This is hugely illogical. You can't use behavior that is only exhibited in response to what is perceived as unfair treatment as evidence for said unfair treatment.
This same reaction would occur of any number of other forums were shut down. That doesn't mean the action itself would be warranted.
...Right here.
As someone who was a member then quickly banned, during my lurk I saw nothing that justifies it's shutting down. Anyone who has lurked there or posted there would see this as out of left field.
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Then I would be asking the Mafia Council why they haven't just set up their own site already. At that point it would be easier to set everything up and personally PM every Mafia member with a link to the new site than to have an argument 10 times in a row.
See, I figured the Gutter had thousands of people and that this sort of solution was impossible. Apparently not.
Honestly if the attempt had been made 10 times (probably by multiple different sets of staff members) that I would have to say it probably deserved it. And honestly...if they don't want it as a part of the site...they can close it down.
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Honestly if the attempt had been made 10 times (probably by multiple different sets of staff members) that I would have to say it probably deserved it. And honestly...if they don't want it as a part of the site...they can close it down.
Seriously? After having proved 9 times that it was unnecessary? Except the people making the decision are just biased against the community based on perceptions/butt-hurting?
As someone who was a member then quickly banned, during my lurk I saw nothing that justifies it's shutting down. Anyone who has lurked there or posted there would see this as out of left field.
Now, this is really interesting to me, because Philonous experience in the gutter is an example of the type of behavior that this motion is supposed to stop. He came, he posted, was told to stop posting, kept posting and was banned.
However, you'll note that he has no problem with the existence of the gutter.
Why?
Because it's not a big deal. Most people who have ever been in the gutter have an understanding of the satirical nature of what goes on there and/or don't care that they didn't fit in.
To clarify again (very post hoc I know), while I was on staff, the word "cyberbullying" was never a word thrown around in the Mod Lounge, and there was no "moral witch hunt" on the part of the staff like this.
If the goal of the staff is to rout their very liberal, loaded definition of the word "cyberbullying" from these forums, and implement policy huffing and puffing about how disastrous to the fabric of MTGS society such attitudes will have, my point was that they needn't look further than their own private subforum to find such horrors of the interwebs.
I don't think the Gutter is a problem, particularly after the repeated admission that they hadn't done nothin' before the hammer was dropped. I don't think people just being their gross, vitriolic selves is a problem if you're not doing it as a song and dance routine for the public. But the Administration decided that there wasn't enough dancing on our forums, so I brought a mix tape. I don't think its fair for the people who claim to be our moral bastions to condone the same behavior among themselves they punish me for in public. My moral outrage is hypocrisy and inconsistency by the people running the forums, I don't give two ****s (or one ****, for that matter) if they call me a ****** behind closed doors. All the more power to them.
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I'll be sure to be more careful and avoid using analogies in our future debates just in case one of us decides to be purposefully obtuse.
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that's why this is about you and your corruption. because you took your power and walked on with your ball instead of asking if anyone else wanted to play.
you didn't think. that was the problem.
you said it yourself, think, think, think, then post, but also maybe don't post after all. except instead of posting, you implemented a policy without any goddamn forethought. instead of thinking, you just acted.
did you for a single second actually ask instead of just thinking about asking, even after implementing an entire subforum made for just that? no, instead you come in here hanging your head feeling sorry for yourself and begging people to stroke your e-***** over the "good things" you did, while completely disregarding very present, very recent bad things you have done and are still actively doing.
great job, you're the man we should all look up to: fail, complain about people admonishing your failure, ******** about it later.
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I'm getting upset at you because you think it is funny to call people racial slurs. Good day, for I am done with discussing things with you kind sir.
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You didn't check others have and other confirmed that me and several other posters were mentioned in that thread.
In the end it isn't about me. it is about the hypocrasy of this staff that hands out warnings, infractions and suspension to the same behavior that they are doing themselves.
yet they hide under this umberalla of we do no wrong, and if you have a problem take it up with an admin who does nothing but protect them. that is not the so called tolerance or transparency that they want.
sorry no trolling here dude. you have the wrong person. if you would like a troll send me a pm and i can name you a few of them.
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It sounds like their biggest issue is having a section of MTGS that doesn't abide by some official ruleset and is impervious if not immune to the regulation of official staff members. Because of its lawless nature (and possibly history of events) they cannot address real issues like the atmosphere it may bring, the feelings it may hurt or real consequences like cyberbullying. Even if insult or bashing is kept within the gutter, its still cyber bullying going on in within the gutter.
Many have insisted that nothing the gutter does affects the rest of the forum. Some have demanded links and examples proving otherwise. But if you have a hostile atmosphere within a subsection, it will absolutely affect the atmosphere outside of it, so long as anybody who participates in that hostile atmosphere also participates in other sections of the forum. They carry it with them in their attitude, posting style and general attitude toward other users on MTGS.
That may indeed be unfair, as a handful who have done it and spoiled the MTGS experience for others doesn't necessarily reflect the gutter community on the whole.
This goes back to the various discussions about the negative atmosphere in various sections of MTGS where people troll just subtle enough it falls outside of infractions or warnings, but still makes reading crappy for others.
The only real way to address that is to address the atmosphere of the forum itself and what standards its members should be held to. Thats near impossible to do if you have entire sections that are not upheld to ANY standard, are immune to staff moderation and do not value a "pleasant atmosphere" across MTGS.
Yes. You have a very valid point that without discussion, other alternatives and possibilities can never be reached. But honestly - if the staff came and said "Gutter will have to adhere to either the main forum rules or the NSFW ruleset to address these above concerns regarding the atmosphere and behavior we want to promote across this forum. This will now be enforced by official staff." would you really be on board with that? Immediately after Ria stated that, it was rejected.
Thats probably the best 'thoughts and opinions' I can offer on that topic, as obviously I am not well versed in gutter history and past events, nor have any "real" qualified explenation for any of it.
That being a seperate topic, from peoples poor behavior here, trolling, disrespecting forum staff, general lack of understanding behind forum government and practices, and those who have nothing to do with the entire topic other than incite war with admins and make demands over petty crap, like an installed VB mod.
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yeah, sene said he's dealing with IRL stuff, which is important in any context. I'd give sene a complete pass for as long as he needs at the moment because IRL is IRL isn't internet. Even if he literally gave the final word on this whole charade, he's got real things to deal with.
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I believe that is your interpretation and not anything documented anywhere.
That is literally not something they have said to this point. In fact, they directly address the "real issues" by bringing them up and not addressing them beyond that ("no specific instances will be listed, etc").
And if it is still cyberbullying, why now? Why without warning is the section being closed rather than behavior discussed? And why allow it to go on for so long until they themselves are called out on it by the very people affected by the hammer dropping? And why grant those people with trust and power over the forums when they are not capable of upholding the same, higher standards of themselves without the very people they're hammer-dropping calling them on their ****? Why do I even have to say any of this?
A good 100% of the people who had not previously entertained these threads in the past posting in this thread had not heard of the Gutter before today. This is a pattern seen in virtually every thread of this type that has come up. Clearly the influence of the Gutter is not nearly as pervasive as anyone on this entire forum believes it to be, and to say otherwise is literally making **** up.
The admission of the Administration was the Gutter hasn't been involved in such activities (as a whole) for some many moons, and the only instances of drama prior to this was following outbursts over matters unrelated to the Gutter (dissatisfaction with staff members, per my resignation/firing, and per "helpdesk" discussions). It's not about the Gutter, it's about the people posting in the Gutter being tied together for the sake of enhancing drama, and I can honestly say that it is just as much the fault of Gutter posters as it is the staff and "ignorant" forum users that lump them together.
So tell us to uphold a standard. Suggest changes. Push and prod. None of that was done; a bomb was strapped to the bottom of our bus that's set to blow when we move under 40 miles per hour, we were given a heads up after the fact, and then an Administrator opened the issue to public comment here. What's more alarming is rianalnn's admission that he didn't think to use that section in the first place, it was all an after thought of 50 pages of drama.
Maybe we would! Maybe we wouldn't! We'll never know because it wasn't brought up until well after the fact.
The fact of the matter is, this situation would have happened if we disagreed no matter what, but asking us about it first leaves the option open that things will change for the benefit of all without any sore rears.
If my point is valid, let me continue raising valid points: what harm comes from consulting us about a change of direction instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, especially with a given arena for specifically such a discussion made open?
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Hello ER. I see you already posted ITT. Could you please answer my previous question? Thanks in advance.
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The connection is really easily made without even being aware of such a subsection.
Individuals A, B and C seen around the forum in various sections including CI quoting people and insulting others with either [Guttermod] in their sig or now known to be part of that community. Connection made. I'd list them for you, but that was seen as innapropriate earlier.
Inviduals C, D and E seen in previous incidents, previous threads including but not limited to Kijins massive exit who are also here raising the same drama, accusations, walls of text and slander who are in fact, "now known" to be some of the most vocal in this gutter community. Connection defintely made. It is easily seen the drama brought to this forum by that handful now and in the past, EVEN as a new person.
Invidivuals D, E and F who cannot show respect for forum staff and voice their concerns regarding staff in a proper manor without being insultive, drag out personal issues or display behavior that would hardly be tolerated elsewhere. These individuals so very fortunate this forum lets personal insults toward the staff slide. This is probably my driving force in this thread. Even on the worst forums (like WC3, who allows elitists and trolls to run rampant insulting any user the like) they swiftly ban people who make personal insults about the staff.
Its really easy for casual posters, new posters like myself, and non gutter users to see the might of this thread and say "Yes please, do purge this site of its trolls, drama queens and poor behavior, because it really sucks to be randomly **** on by individuals A, D and F when you least expect it. Thank you!!"
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This is hugely illogical. You can't use behavior that is only exhibited in response to what is perceived as unfair treatment as evidence for said unfair treatment.
This same reaction would occur of any number of other forums were shut down. That doesn't mean the action itself would be warranted.
This is kinda my thought...at one point I was a member of the gutter and enjoyed being in there for all of 3 days or so, but it seems like the overall reaction hasn't been, "well is there a way we can fix this" but something to the effect of "Rabble rabble rabble, I think this mod is **** and is abusing his power, Rabble rabble rabble." Nothing directly against the individuals in the gutter, but I salute it's passing.
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig
Legacy
RUBFaithless Dredge
I am going to say something about this because this post really irks me. Basing actions on perception is wrong. Most of the problems in this world are based on perception and not facts. In fact if you look throughout history you will find that perception and not facts has been the cause of many atrocities from genocide to slavery to war to even modern day bullying and racism.
Taking actions based on perception is not the right way to deal with things.
I don't usually agree with Cyan, but when I do I agree a lot. I think this post perfectly encapsulates the entire issue.
Threads are big, because of haters posting, as well as people needing explanations (such as yourself*) and staff members (namely globals at this point) not showing their faces in here to answer simple questions and give better reasons other than "because Gutter".
*Do you see that this thread is two post larger because you posted in it and I had to explain things to you? And perhaps you will answer something, and someone else will reply to you as well? I hope that explains to you why this thread is about to become the largest thread in CI that is not a list of banned members.
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I spend a lot of time in the Mafia subforum. If it was suddenly closed, my reaction would be to try to hold a calm, reasoned discussion with the mods - and if their answer came down to "This is not something we want to have as part of our site" I would accept it and move on.
If a bunch of other people from Mafia reacted to the same thing with rage, insults, accusations and recriminations, I would think "Wow, those people are a lot less pleasant than I thought. I guess the mods made a better decision than I realized."
What if this was the 10th attempt to close mafia?
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...Right here.
As someone who was a member then quickly banned, during my lurk I saw nothing that justifies it's shutting down. Anyone who has lurked there or posted there would see this as out of left field.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Then I would be asking the Mafia Council why they haven't just set up their own site already. At that point it would be easier to set everything up and personally PM every Mafia member with a link to the new site than to have an argument 10 times in a row.
See, I figured the Gutter had thousands of people and that this sort of solution was impossible. Apparently not.
Honestly if the attempt had been made 10 times (probably by multiple different sets of staff members) that I would have to say it probably deserved it. And honestly...if they don't want it as a part of the site...they can close it down.
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig
Legacy
RUBFaithless Dredge
Seriously? After having proved 9 times that it was unnecessary? Except the people making the decision are just biased against the community based on perceptions/butt-hurting?
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Now, this is really interesting to me, because Philonous experience in the gutter is an example of the type of behavior that this motion is supposed to stop. He came, he posted, was told to stop posting, kept posting and was banned.
However, you'll note that he has no problem with the existence of the gutter.
Why?
Because it's not a big deal. Most people who have ever been in the gutter have an understanding of the satirical nature of what goes on there and/or don't care that they didn't fit in.
I refer you to my Wal-Mart analogy I made earlier. Why go to several stores shopping when you can go to one and get everything you want?
The Family