You do realize that calling people out for refusing to follow a code of conduct constitutes good government right? Or are you still of the "criticism is mean" school?
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I fail to see the point of this. We reached the decision posted in the OP with group consensus, there is no singular post to point to, & I see no constructive purpose at outlining who contributed at what level.
Given that this has become an "us" vs "them" argument where only those with power have the right to understand how and why and by whom the decision was made, I fail to see how you are missing the point.
You are obviously being called out as the reason this is all happening. Prove this assertion to be false. Seems simple.
Given that a certain Global has it out for me BTW (a side conversation for another time) I'd be curious to see the conversation to understand what is actually happening. If this conclusion is what you've purported it to be, demonstrate the conversation that lead to this conclusion. Please.
If you refuse on grounds of this "what happens in the Mod lounge stays in the Mod lounge" policy, I believe you have lost all credibility to argue using the word transparency from here until the end of the site itself.
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My question is: why did it become a meme to bash you? Let me tell you a story of a similar situation.
I've been in a moderation situation similar, on a video game (star trek online), where I channel banned an idiot for spewing vitriolic crap that no one liked and being a complete ass to me. His reaction was to convince two prominent clans that I was out to get them banned from the game and cut them out of competitive pvp. So they started harassing me and demanding that I resign from my position (why the **** would I do that?) and their hatred spewed onto the main developer forums and led to four of their more prominent members getting banned for harrassment. Then they blamed it on me, despite them having dragged it to the point where they got banned. At that point it spiraled out of control and the pvp population was torn between the "GLJ is a neonazi" camp and the "much adue about nothing" camp.
I'm not going to lie, by the end of that episode I legitimately hated that man. He was a complete ******* that manipulated others to create drama. I had set rules on the channel that he ignored and promptly got banned from it for He created a self-fulfilling prophecy that I was out to get people and in the end when people got banned over it I was blamed for it all.
---
So personal adage aside. Rianalnn, what did you do (I think we know whatcha gutter did) and why is there so much bad blood between you and the gutter?
Edit: mobile devices are far too hard to write posts with proper grammar. If you see a weird word just try to figure it out... Sorriez
Even if the author is silenced, the performance is stopped, the story will not end.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
So personal adage aside. Rianalnn, what did you do (I think we know whatcha gutter did) and why is there so much bad blood between you and the gutter?
It's not easy to set out, & tangential to this thread since the reasons why I think the Gutter should be archived are very much set forth in the first post of this thread, but start here, back in April.
I would say I had a more or less positive relationship with many of the Gutter members prior to that.
I stopped going in there with any regularity when it became a meme to bash me.
There are a couple missing steps here. The Gutter did not start bashing you until after you demonized us. You demonized the Gutter, because some called you out for what they saw as sketchy behavior.
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It's not easy to set out, & tangential to this thread since the reasons why I think the Gutter should be archived are very much set forth in the first post of this thread, but start here, back in April.
I would say I had a more or less positive relationship with many of the Gutter members prior to that.
I don't think it's that tangential at all. I mean, it's no secret that the Gutter isn't a hugbox, but you really have to do something to earn the kind of ire you've gotten. Skimming the thread you linked, it seems to me that there's an ongoing pattern here that you either don't see or don't want to admit to.
I read this thread (and the last huge thread that sprang up last time the Gutter was "closed). Lots of accusations of corruption, but I guess I'm not seeing it.
First off, I've seen multiple posts in this very thread (mostly by the same person) that should have/would have earned anyone else an infraction (unless, for whatever reason, staff members did choose to infract said people and chose not to visibly infract the offending post for whatever reason even though I see they have infracted a few other posts here).
I wouldn't think corrupt staff would let dissidents get away with such behavior. You know, silence the critics and what-not. In fact, I would have thought that, if there was really such rampant corruption, the gutter would have remained closed the FIRST time, all offending members would have long been banned, staff supporting the gutter and it's members would have been removed and the thread would have quickly been swept away into the darkest depths of the hidden forums so that the site would carry on as if nothing ever happened and the thousands of other users who don't even know that the gutter even exists would have just went on blissfully unaware that a valiant attempt by gutter members to expose the corruption of the evil staff had been quashed. Not to mention the fact that not only did you guys get to keep your gutter, but soon after several of the Gutter patrons were suddenly promoted to staff? (correct me if I'm wrong here, but that's what seemed to have happened to me).
I suppose I am simply a bystander in all of this, as I am neither staff nor gutter member and I have no people on this forum that I associate with. I do have to say that as a bystander, a lot of the gutter members posting here are certainly not helping the bad reputation that the secret forum seems to have with the way they are posting. Throwing out infraction-worthy insults at staff members, sarcastically "thanking" everyone who doesn't agree with them or telling them that they're not allowed to have an opinion, and generally acting entitled and elitist about the entire existence of special clubhouse. It just makes outsiders like me believe that all of the negative things we hear about the Gutter are absolutely true (and yes, I know someone is going to zero in on the fact that I called myself an outsider and use it as an argument for why my opinion doesn't matter).
The fact that a certain minority is allowed their own secret forum where they don't have to follow rules and can talk about other users behind their backs/not have rules apply to them in general seems unfair to the rest of us users who are 1. not cool enough 2. not 'hardcore' enough 3. not popular enough 4. not even aware of the forum's existence.
Personally, as someone who trades on this site, I am uncomfortable knowing that there is a secret forum where people who I am giving my personal information to could potentially be talking bad about me and rallying against me for whatever reason (I can't think of any reason why, but you never know, I suppose).
I also find it distasteful that the staff has a private thread dedicated to talking crap about forum users. I'm always of the opinion that those of authority should be held to a higher standard than your average forum-goer. Both the Gutter and that thread sound like something that shouldn't really have a place on this forum.
It's not easy to set out, & tangential to this thread since the reasons why I think the Gutter should be archived are very much set forth in the first post of this thread, but start here, back in April.
I would say I had a more or less positive relationship with many of the Gutter members prior to that.
So you're acknowledging that the decision to shut down the Gutter is, in part, fueled by an attempt to take away something from people that disagree with your leadership?
I understand that it's impossible and implausible to run a forum democratically, but decisions should be made for the betterment of the community, and taking away a seven-year-old community from a forum you recently joined should NOT be driven by personal reasons.
So you're acknowledging that the decision to shut down the Gutter is, in part, fueled by an attempt to take away something from people that disagree with your leadership?
What? Where do you even get that from? I am saying that the first post of this thread is, in its entirety, in agreement why I feel the Gutter does not belong as part of Salve.
I read this thread (and the last huge thread that sprang up last time the Gutter was "closed). Lots of accusations of corruption, but I guess I'm not seeing it.
First off, I've seen multiple posts in this very thread (mostly by the same person) that should have/would have earned anyone else an infraction (unless, for whatever reason, staff members did choose to infract said people and chose not to visibly infract the offending post for whatever reason even though I see they have infracted a few other posts here).
I wouldn't think corrupt staff would let dissidents get away with such behavior. You know, silence the critics and what-not. In fact, I would have thought that, if there was really such rampant corruption, the gutter would have remained closed the FIRST time,
I stopped reading here.
This is a new administration, so your argument becomes invalid before you even begin.
EDIT: I skimmed the Mod CoC. In the process, it was stated that the Mod lounge policy is that those that give opinions and state things in the Mod lounge may reveal these things in public threads. Back to my request, I call on ria to hit up those involved in the conversation that lead to this conclusion as to whether they would be willing to allow their words and the thread they are contained in to be made public. When they reach a unanimous decision that transparency is worthwhile, the thread could easily be posted.
I think you guys are lucky Hannes really is hands-off around here.
Keep in mind that all forums are private. Someone owns it, and has final say on its operation. Without that, the task then falls to staff. As a privately owned group (owner and staff), they have the right to the secrecy level that they desire in order to most effectively run the site as they'd like. We have as much right to sit in on "boardroom" discussions of MTGS staff as we do to sit in on boardrooms of companies, and they are under no obligation to tell us a damned thing other than, "Hey, new ****. Enjoy!" So, if they want to keep the CoC secret, it's cool.
One thing about the CoC: many gamers are notorious rules lawyers, due to their games having complex rule sets that need arbiters. I have ZERO doubt, associating with gamers for the last twenty years, that members will throw random accusations out when this mod or that mod infracts them and they don't like it.
If it were my decision to make, the Gutter would have gotten shut down, this thread would have happened, and anyone throwing around random accusations would be suspended for a cool-down day. Further inflammatory accusations against the staff would receive stiffer penalties.
The staff would be addressed as well. The "****ing idiot" threads are an abomination. They, as well as the Gutter, should be made public for a short period, so that those who care can pay their last respects, and they would all face deletion after. The staff members participating in those threads would be dealt with accordingly, depending on the severity of the behavior and the remainder of their service record. But, if I was running a site like this, I'd be more hands-on (and I'd likely have the time to do so) about these things.
I like this place. Despite my occasional extensions outside my clan's thread and the Mill and Magic Software, this site is kind of a home to me on the Internet... and I despise drama in my home, hence my paying attention to the CI forum. The worst drama comes from Gutter members, the most outspoken of who identify themselves readily when Gutter issues crop up in CI. I've come to associate the Gutter with adolescent behavior, and some mods over the years as well. But I know that a lot of Gutter guys are not adolescents but grown men. I suspect that most mods are, as well.
At least I respect the fact that modding requires a level of time and willingness, without pay, that many are not willing to give, and we may not always get the best mods, but the most willing, because of this. (I'm not willing to mod at all; I don't have the time to do the job as I would want to.) Thus, I respect the mods and admins here to the extent that they're often the ones who have to make the tough decisions and take all the ****balls whichever users are most upset about said decision want to throw, and, as users of a PRIVATELY OWNED Internet forum, we have to respect their rules and decisions, whether we like them or not, when we agree to participate.
If you don't like the way things are run, you don't have to direct your Internet here. Go find some other forum that is run more like you see fit. Or start one.
As I said earlier, I post mostly in Clans. Yes, the Clans forum is not necessary. Should it be deleted tomorrow, I'd be upset. Perhaps I'd come here less, as my clan would surely reorganize in some other way (Facebook, Twitter, etc.), but I doubt I'd abandon the site completely, and I certainly wouldn't be behaving as the Gutter crew has been throughout much of this thread. Embarrassing for grown men!!!
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What? Where do you even get that from? I am saying that the first post of this thread is, in its entirety, in agreement why I feel the Gutter does not belong as part of Salve.
I would like to thank you for posting that information. A reasonable request was made, and though you had concerns, you went ahead and granted that request and now we all have access to such an important bit of information and hopefully a little bit of a better understanding of the mod process in the process.
Another request was made that I believe, if granted, might go a long ways towards being able to silence a great deal of the issues/concerns/questions/otherwise by many of the posters in this thread. By posting or making available the thread where the discussion and eventual agreement to have the gutter closed, I believe this would go a long way towards helping everyone understand more than just the why, but also how it got there as well.
To be fair; as much as transparency is advocated, at least some measure of discretion must be kept. Many issues that the public does not need to see should be kept from the public (because they could turn very harmful). I don't want to see the thread because I'm comfortable enough with the moderation team - and I feel that everyone else is comfortable with the moderation team (sans Rianalnn) - to come up with a proper decision on the vast majority of matters. It is quite possible that the thread could expose corruption, however it is equally possible that that thread will be used against them for ages.
Tangeant; everyone in this forum has called at least one other person on this forum a "****ing idiot" - they just don't post that comment on this forum. The gutter did, and actually seeing that ****talking behind peoples backs is what I believe caused this situation.
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Even if the author is silenced, the performance is stopped, the story will not end.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
Reading that CoC I can name at least 2 things that Rian has been in violation of several times plus a couple more that he has done at least once. Sure these may have been before the official CoC was put into place but does it not show that the person setting and enforceing the standards is incapable of following them himself?
Reading that CoC I can name at least 2 things that Rian has been in violation of several times plus a couple more that he has done at least once. Sure these may have been before the official CoC was put into place but does it not show that the person setting and enforceing the standards is incapable of following them himself?
Tordeck, this thread is not a "Lynch staff member X" thread. If you believe rianalnn's conduct to be unsatisfactory, you should take it up on his helpdesk, with another admin, or in the staff inbox. This thread is not the place for bringing up old grudges. Also, whatever complaint you lodge should be grounded in concrete and referenceable facts. This cloak and dagger style of posting neither contributes productively to discussion nor serves to effect any change or action.
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Another request was made that I believe, if granted, might go a long ways towards being able to silence a great deal of the issues/concerns/questions/otherwise by many of the posters in this thread. By posting or making available the thread where the discussion and eventual agreement to have the gutter closed, I believe this would go a long way towards helping everyone understand more than just the why, but also how it got there as well.
As mentioned previously, there is no one thread where this happened. The consensus was reached over some time, multiple threads, and multiple conversations outside of threads. I do not think any thread we provide would be particularly useful. Furthermore, each thread in question, to the best of my knowledge, also contains sensitive material unrelated to this matter.
Point stands. If there was really as much corruption as people here are letting on, the staff would have not even made a place for people to voice their frustrations and opinions on the matter. They simply would have removed the gutter and banned anyone who raised cane about it. That's what a really oppressive staff would do. I've seen it on many other forums.
Could there be corruption? Maybe. But this site definitely isn't as oppressive as some people would like you to believe.
Tordeck, this thread is not a "Lynch staff member X" thread. If you believe rianalnn's conduct to be unsatisfactory, you should take it up on his helpdesk, with another admin, or in the staff inbox. This thread is not the place for bringing up old grudges. Also, whatever complaint you lodge should be grounded in concrete and referenceable facts. This cloak and dagger style of posting neither contributes productively to discussion nor serves to effect any change or action.
Been there, done that. Thanks for your input though
Why is the only recourse to the gutter closing it down?
This is yiur site, ria, I get it. You're going to do what you want, but why don't you voice you concerns with the gutter mods then force us to follow your new hugfest rules? We can't make fun of new people . . . whatever. There is a subforum where you could have set out a new direction for the gutter to take. Are you that worried that you'll be made fun of by some internet tough guys?
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This thread gained 8 pages on 60ppp whilst I was sleeping and half way through reading I decided to stop multi quoting posts since most of them became irrelevant as the thread progressed and I forgot most of what I was going to say about the quoted posts so I'm going to give it a try.
I'm for consistency. If the gutter is being closed, then the mod cave insult threads should be closed. If the gutter is opened, so should the mod cave.
If the gutter is going to to be archived and made public, then in the interest of fairness the "User X is a ****ing idiot thread", "The post amusing pm's thread" and "GRRRRR" should all also be archived in the same fashion, if not it is just further proof of unfair standards and invalidates a few of viperesques reasons from the first post.
Agreed. Just delete it. No need for airing drama, hurt feelings from users involved or animosity toward others. You don't need to keep it for "historical record of shady things we used to do, so that in the future we can quote from it and dump it on somebody's head"
This is exactly what will happen if the gutter is made public, but because they are moderators and admins you are creating a double standard where they are allowed to bash people behind close doors but when the gutter does it, it gets close and it's dirty laundry aired.
I believe it is fairly safe to say that if the Admins and Mods are gladly going to show the world what goes on in the gutter, but won't show anyone what has been said in their own secret hideout, that what is being said in their secret zone is as bad, if not worse.
Honestly? A lot of the stuff in the Gutter isn't even remotely as bad as advertised. But I guess the staff figures that it looks bad by comparison to the rest of Salvation, so removing it from context and saying "look at the evils within" will, sadly, hold sway over people who don't know enough about the situation.
You do realize that calling people out for refusing to follow a code of conduct constitutes good government right? Or are you still of the "criticism is mean" school?
You are obviously being called out as the reason this is all happening. Prove this assertion to be false. Seems simple.
Given that a certain Global has it out for me BTW (a side conversation for another time) I'd be curious to see the conversation to understand what is actually happening. If this conclusion is what you've purported it to be, demonstrate the conversation that lead to this conclusion. Please.
If you refuse on grounds of this "what happens in the Mod lounge stays in the Mod lounge" policy, I believe you have lost all credibility to argue using the word transparency from here until the end of the site itself.
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I've been in a moderation situation similar, on a video game (star trek online), where I channel banned an idiot for spewing vitriolic crap that no one liked and being a complete ass to me. His reaction was to convince two prominent clans that I was out to get them banned from the game and cut them out of competitive pvp. So they started harassing me and demanding that I resign from my position (why the **** would I do that?) and their hatred spewed onto the main developer forums and led to four of their more prominent members getting banned for harrassment. Then they blamed it on me, despite them having dragged it to the point where they got banned. At that point it spiraled out of control and the pvp population was torn between the "GLJ is a neonazi" camp and the "much adue about nothing" camp.
I'm not going to lie, by the end of that episode I legitimately hated that man. He was a complete ******* that manipulated others to create drama. I had set rules on the channel that he ignored and promptly got banned from it for He created a self-fulfilling prophecy that I was out to get people and in the end when people got banned over it I was blamed for it all.
---
So personal adage aside. Rianalnn, what did you do (I think we know whatcha gutter did) and why is there so much bad blood between you and the gutter?
Edit: mobile devices are far too hard to write posts with proper grammar. If you see a weird word just try to figure it out... Sorriez
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
Bingo
I would say I had a more or less positive relationship with many of the Gutter members prior to that.
There are a couple missing steps here. The Gutter did not start bashing you until after you demonized us. You demonized the Gutter, because some called you out for what they saw as sketchy behavior.
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I don't think it's that tangential at all. I mean, it's no secret that the Gutter isn't a hugbox, but you really have to do something to earn the kind of ire you've gotten. Skimming the thread you linked, it seems to me that there's an ongoing pattern here that you either don't see or don't want to admit to.
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First off, I've seen multiple posts in this very thread (mostly by the same person) that should have/would have earned anyone else an infraction (unless, for whatever reason, staff members did choose to infract said people and chose not to visibly infract the offending post for whatever reason even though I see they have infracted a few other posts here).
I wouldn't think corrupt staff would let dissidents get away with such behavior. You know, silence the critics and what-not. In fact, I would have thought that, if there was really such rampant corruption, the gutter would have remained closed the FIRST time, all offending members would have long been banned, staff supporting the gutter and it's members would have been removed and the thread would have quickly been swept away into the darkest depths of the hidden forums so that the site would carry on as if nothing ever happened and the thousands of other users who don't even know that the gutter even exists would have just went on blissfully unaware that a valiant attempt by gutter members to expose the corruption of the evil staff had been quashed. Not to mention the fact that not only did you guys get to keep your gutter, but soon after several of the Gutter patrons were suddenly promoted to staff? (correct me if I'm wrong here, but that's what seemed to have happened to me).
I suppose I am simply a bystander in all of this, as I am neither staff nor gutter member and I have no people on this forum that I associate with. I do have to say that as a bystander, a lot of the gutter members posting here are certainly not helping the bad reputation that the secret forum seems to have with the way they are posting. Throwing out infraction-worthy insults at staff members, sarcastically "thanking" everyone who doesn't agree with them or telling them that they're not allowed to have an opinion, and generally acting entitled and elitist about the entire existence of special clubhouse. It just makes outsiders like me believe that all of the negative things we hear about the Gutter are absolutely true (and yes, I know someone is going to zero in on the fact that I called myself an outsider and use it as an argument for why my opinion doesn't matter).
The fact that a certain minority is allowed their own secret forum where they don't have to follow rules and can talk about other users behind their backs/not have rules apply to them in general seems unfair to the rest of us users who are 1. not cool enough 2. not 'hardcore' enough 3. not popular enough 4. not even aware of the forum's existence.
Personally, as someone who trades on this site, I am uncomfortable knowing that there is a secret forum where people who I am giving my personal information to could potentially be talking bad about me and rallying against me for whatever reason (I can't think of any reason why, but you never know, I suppose).
I also find it distasteful that the staff has a private thread dedicated to talking crap about forum users. I'm always of the opinion that those of authority should be held to a higher standard than your average forum-goer. Both the Gutter and that thread sound like something that shouldn't really have a place on this forum.
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I understand that it's impossible and implausible to run a forum democratically, but decisions should be made for the betterment of the community, and taking away a seven-year-old community from a forum you recently joined should NOT be driven by personal reasons.
What? Where do you even get that from? I am saying that the first post of this thread is, in its entirety, in agreement why I feel the Gutter does not belong as part of Salve.
This is a new administration, so your argument becomes invalid before you even begin.
EDIT: I skimmed the Mod CoC. In the process, it was stated that the Mod lounge policy is that those that give opinions and state things in the Mod lounge may reveal these things in public threads. Back to my request, I call on ria to hit up those involved in the conversation that lead to this conclusion as to whether they would be willing to allow their words and the thread they are contained in to be made public. When they reach a unanimous decision that transparency is worthwhile, the thread could easily be posted.
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Keep in mind that all forums are private. Someone owns it, and has final say on its operation. Without that, the task then falls to staff. As a privately owned group (owner and staff), they have the right to the secrecy level that they desire in order to most effectively run the site as they'd like. We have as much right to sit in on "boardroom" discussions of MTGS staff as we do to sit in on boardrooms of companies, and they are under no obligation to tell us a damned thing other than, "Hey, new ****. Enjoy!" So, if they want to keep the CoC secret, it's cool.
One thing about the CoC: many gamers are notorious rules lawyers, due to their games having complex rule sets that need arbiters. I have ZERO doubt, associating with gamers for the last twenty years, that members will throw random accusations out when this mod or that mod infracts them and they don't like it.
If it were my decision to make, the Gutter would have gotten shut down, this thread would have happened, and anyone throwing around random accusations would be suspended for a cool-down day. Further inflammatory accusations against the staff would receive stiffer penalties.
The staff would be addressed as well. The "****ing idiot" threads are an abomination. They, as well as the Gutter, should be made public for a short period, so that those who care can pay their last respects, and they would all face deletion after. The staff members participating in those threads would be dealt with accordingly, depending on the severity of the behavior and the remainder of their service record. But, if I was running a site like this, I'd be more hands-on (and I'd likely have the time to do so) about these things.
I like this place. Despite my occasional extensions outside my clan's thread and the Mill and Magic Software, this site is kind of a home to me on the Internet... and I despise drama in my home, hence my paying attention to the CI forum. The worst drama comes from Gutter members, the most outspoken of who identify themselves readily when Gutter issues crop up in CI. I've come to associate the Gutter with adolescent behavior, and some mods over the years as well. But I know that a lot of Gutter guys are not adolescents but grown men. I suspect that most mods are, as well.
At least I respect the fact that modding requires a level of time and willingness, without pay, that many are not willing to give, and we may not always get the best mods, but the most willing, because of this. (I'm not willing to mod at all; I don't have the time to do the job as I would want to.) Thus, I respect the mods and admins here to the extent that they're often the ones who have to make the tough decisions and take all the ****balls whichever users are most upset about said decision want to throw, and, as users of a PRIVATELY OWNED Internet forum, we have to respect their rules and decisions, whether we like them or not, when we agree to participate.
If you don't like the way things are run, you don't have to direct your Internet here. Go find some other forum that is run more like you see fit. Or start one.
As I said earlier, I post mostly in Clans. Yes, the Clans forum is not necessary. Should it be deleted tomorrow, I'd be upset. Perhaps I'd come here less, as my clan would surely reorganize in some other way (Facebook, Twitter, etc.), but I doubt I'd abandon the site completely, and I certainly wouldn't be behaving as the Gutter crew has been throughout much of this thread. Embarrassing for grown men!!!
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And if I've offended you, I'm sorry, but maybe you need to be offended. But here's my apology and one more thing...
I would like to thank you for posting that information. A reasonable request was made, and though you had concerns, you went ahead and granted that request and now we all have access to such an important bit of information and hopefully a little bit of a better understanding of the mod process in the process.
Another request was made that I believe, if granted, might go a long ways towards being able to silence a great deal of the issues/concerns/questions/otherwise by many of the posters in this thread. By posting or making available the thread where the discussion and eventual agreement to have the gutter closed, I believe this would go a long way towards helping everyone understand more than just the why, but also how it got there as well.
Tangeant; everyone in this forum has called at least one other person on this forum a "****ing idiot" - they just don't post that comment on this forum. The gutter did, and actually seeing that ****talking behind peoples backs is what I believe caused this situation.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
The Family
Tordeck, this thread is not a "Lynch staff member X" thread. If you believe rianalnn's conduct to be unsatisfactory, you should take it up on his helpdesk, with another admin, or in the staff inbox. This thread is not the place for bringing up old grudges. Also, whatever complaint you lodge should be grounded in concrete and referenceable facts. This cloak and dagger style of posting neither contributes productively to discussion nor serves to effect any change or action.
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As mentioned previously, there is no one thread where this happened. The consensus was reached over some time, multiple threads, and multiple conversations outside of threads. I do not think any thread we provide would be particularly useful. Furthermore, each thread in question, to the best of my knowledge, also contains sensitive material unrelated to this matter.
Point stands. If there was really as much corruption as people here are letting on, the staff would have not even made a place for people to voice their frustrations and opinions on the matter. They simply would have removed the gutter and banned anyone who raised cane about it. That's what a really oppressive staff would do. I've seen it on many other forums.
Could there be corruption? Maybe. But this site definitely isn't as oppressive as some people would like you to believe.
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Been there, done that. Thanks for your input though
The Family
This is yiur site, ria, I get it. You're going to do what you want, but why don't you voice you concerns with the gutter mods then force us to follow your new hugfest rules? We can't make fun of new people . . . whatever. There is a subforum where you could have set out a new direction for the gutter to take. Are you that worried that you'll be made fun of by some internet tough guys?
If the gutter is going to to be archived and made public, then in the interest of fairness the "User X is a ****ing idiot thread", "The post amusing pm's thread" and "GRRRRR" should all also be archived in the same fashion, if not it is just further proof of unfair standards and invalidates a few of viperesques reasons from the first post.
This is exactly what will happen if the gutter is made public, but because they are moderators and admins you are creating a double standard where they are allowed to bash people behind close doors but when the gutter does it, it gets close and it's dirty laundry aired.
Those two threads have been binned. I don't understand why you think the staff social chat thread should be as well.
Honestly? A lot of the stuff in the Gutter isn't even remotely as bad as advertised. But I guess the staff figures that it looks bad by comparison to the rest of Salvation, so removing it from context and saying "look at the evils within" will, sadly, hold sway over people who don't know enough about the situation.