•Backseat Modding
If you see a post that you believe needs to be moved, or that violates a site rule, please use the Report Button and allow a Moderator to determine the course of action. Telling a user their post should be moved, or that they violated a rule, does not contribute to the thread.
It's sort of a gray area I think. By providing a link to another thread of this forum that talks about the same thing it's like telling him "hey, there's already a thing for this you should not have posted that" which would qualify as backseat moderation.
Well that's what I think at least....
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As a response to the definition of a word he clearly didn't understand
ROFL, you are trying to educate me? just because English is not my first language doesn't mean i am uneducated you prick, when you go study to become a genetic researcher or a brain surgeon amd succeed in it you can come and diss me with how smart you are okay? this is freaking card game forum, not cambridge university.
MTGS....Full of fail all day, everyday. Welcome to Hell!
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
He pointed a guy towards exactly what he was looking for. This makes me leary to ever help someone out by linking to a relevent topic.
Yes, this user was helpful in linking to the proper conversation, but he did not do so within the rules. There are posts like this all the time, some like this are borderline and more helpful than bad, but the rule is to report a misplaced thread/post.
This was just a warning. The moderators exist to help control and organize the forums. He could have done the same thing by reporting that post instead of posting. If you see posts like this, by all means report them and will we handle them as suited.
Backseat Modding
If you see a post that you believe needs to be moved, or that violates a site rule, please use the Report Button and allow a Moderator to determine the course of action. Telling a user their post should be moved, or that they violated a rule, does not contribute to the thread.
If I understand it correctly, the Backseat Moderation rule is put in place to prevent posters from tossing "your post is against forum rules" and contributing little else to the topic (indeed derailing the thread in question) and hence, equivalent of spam. Clearly, BoJag's link was helpful and cannot be construed as spam. I feel that we should be interpreting the backseat moderation rule in its spirit rather than by its letter.
However, even if the rule were to be interpreted by its letter, technically, BoJag probably do not believe that the post need to be moved (it would be more convenient to just provide help and request for the thread to be closed) or that the post violates a site rule (technically, it is not against site rules to ask if DFC is inconvenient to people with colour blindness).
Note that the OP himself/herself has no way of finding out that BoJag's recommended thread is the thread that I should be looking at if I have a query about the implication of DFC on colour blind individuals -- the title of the thread which BoJag linked to is "Color indicators are poor design" which is not indicative of a place I should look for if I am worried about the issue of colour blindness.
Of course, all this is academic given that we technically cannot appeal against another user's warning but it does seem helpful to understand the moderator's policy on this matter just so that we can make more constructive posts in the future
Clearly, BoJag's link was helpful and cannot be construed as spam. I feel that we should be interpreting the backseat moderation rule in its spirit rather than by its letter.
Being helpful doesn't preclude a post from being spam. (Although I agree that that's a very strict guideline.)
BoJag probably should've reported the OP with something like "needs a merge" or "duplicate thread." I can see how you view it as borderline, but it seems pretty clear cut to me.
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I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
I generally agree with moderator decisions in the site, yet the "backseat moderation" definition was the one area with which I had qualms.
But this is just outrageous. A poster helping another out by linking a thread with relevant discussion somehow threatens the stability of the site enough to receive a warning?
All this does is encourage posters not to be helpful to others.
Being helpful doesn't preclude a post from being spam. (Although I agree that that's a very strict guideline.)
BoJag probably should've reported the OP with something like "needs a merge" or "duplicate thread." I can see how you view it as borderline, but it seems pretty clear cut to me.
"Helpful spam" sounds like a horrible oxymoron imho.
Also, to quote the Report Function: -
Quote from Report Function »
Note: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts.
The OP (miridigi) raises a legitimate concern on DFC and as such, it is hard to construe that post to be spam. At the same time, the link does not contain any real advertising material which would benefit BoJag himself/herself and does not contain any elements of harassment, fighting or rudeness -- it is not even against any of the known rules in the NCD subforum. As such, in BoJag's position, it would be difficult to see any real reason to click the Report button rather than to provide direct help.
This is probably why I won't exactly say that this is "clear cut", so to speak.
What you're quoting is embedded in the vB framework and not something put there by the staff. I don't even think the staff can change it.
Yet we have enough changes made to the vB framework to not warrant switching to a better and more recent platform with more functionality? (cough Joomla cough)
If all of those changes preventing a migration to a better web-ware exist, surely changing some text can be accomplished.
What you're quoting is embedded in the vB framework and not something put there by the staff. I don't even think the staff can change it.
Oh really! That's good to know. There have been many times where I hit cancel on something I thought should be reported thanks to that little reminder. I'll just go ahead and ignore that from now on.
Arcadic, would you have considered it backseat modding if BoJag had include more text, something like, "There's already a thread about this topic here (link). You're not the only one concerned, but it was pointed out there that at least the colour blind can still see the difference in background texture." Is there enough substance there to call it a real post now?
One thing that Binary used to do that was really nice was give someone the PM for a warning when they did nothing wrong but still "broke a rule." With nothing in the thread and no red text.
I always thought that was a very classy way to handle borderline warnings where the guy didn't intentionally do anything wrong.
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I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
What you're quoting is embedded in the vB framework and not something put there by the staff. I don't even think the staff can change it.
Fair enough but it doesn't seem to change how the OP (miridigi's) post was not explicitly against the forum rules and hence should be reported by BoJag rather than responded to. Is it a post that should be moved? Probably but the NCD rules has been silent on it -- as far as I can see -- as has the Main Forum Rules.
In fact, the second post correctly replies the OP's first question, i.e.: -
I was just wondering if anyone else thinks that it's an issue that the "night" side of the DFCs do not have mana symbols to indicate their colour.
Based on the above arguments and arguments I made prior to this, it is difficult to see how BoJag has been "moderating" or "illegally performing moderator/staff-specific duties" rather than helping as a friendly passer-by.
The main reason why I am actually posting wall of texts is not because I know BoJag but because this seems to be what I would have done (though I am more likely to provide the link then bring the OP to the attention of a mod for his/her discretion). In the interest of preventing warnings/infractions, I thought I'd have this clarified by a staff before hand
The thing I don't understand is... there was one post from a member who was trying to be helpful, and it is considered spam. But now we have a whole thread trying to contest whether or not that ONE POST is considered spam or not. By that logic, shouldn't everybody who posted in this thread get a warning?
...I don't get the point of spam infractions anyway. This is a message board, where people POST, so why get warnings for posting?
I believe that I have enough social competence to slip into a party or two, potentially wooing some attractive females that would not mind spending the evening performing the booty dance on me.
Yet we have enough changes made to the vB framework to not warrant switching to a better and more recent platform with more functionality? (cough Joomla cough)
If all of those changes preventing a migration to a better web-ware exist, surely changing some text can be accomplished.
No. If I recall correctly, it's been brought up in the Mod Cave. It can't be altered or the risks/amount of work involved just isn't worth the slight benefit.
Fair enough but it doesn't seem to change how the OP (miridigi's) post was not explicitly against the forum rules and hence should be reported by BoJag rather than responded to. Is it a post that should be moved? Probably but the NCD rules has been silent on it -- as far as I can see -- as has the Main Forum Rules.
Dunno, not my business. You were framing an argument on the report post reminder which was based on information you lacked. I was simply filling you in on why that message is what it is, not commenting on this minor confusion about a rule.
I don't mean to offend any moderators in any way, and if I somehow do, I apologize in advance, but this seems like the life equivalent of someone walking up to you and asking for directions. You point them in the right way, and almost instantly a cop appears and issues you a citation for not reporting that person to him.
I understand its MTG Salvation's site, and therefore it's their rules, but weren't forums created on the foundation of peer to peer assistance?
The difference being, of course, that it's not illegal to give someone directions whereas we have a rule asking people to use the Report button. The reason this rule exists (and the reason it is enforeced in situations like this) is so that moderators are the ones deciding if something is in the right place, or needs moved, or needs closed, etc., as well as to avoid any potential confusion when people other than moderators start giving rules advice.
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"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."
The difference being, of course, that it's not illegal to give someone directions whereas we have a rule asking people to use the Report button. The reason this rule exists (and the reason it is enforeced in situations like this) is so that moderators are the ones deciding if something is in the right place, or needs moved, or needs closed, etc., as well as to avoid any potential confusion when people other than moderators start giving rules advice.
And if we didnt, the forums would be more complex than Washington Bueracracy, am i right Extremicon, Orb of Chaos and Beer?
And when i report posts, i always list why, even if its something minor (right forum, wrong subforum) to very major (i wont go there)
I understand its MTG Salvation's site, and therefore it's their rules, but weren't forums created on the foundation of peer to peer assistance?
I think your missing the point of the rule. Should we allow such posts to continue and be ok, it encourages others to do so within similar situations. The proper thing to do when a thread is out of place or a duplicate is to report it, not post in the thread the user's mistake.
I can admit this is a borderline post. I can admit it was helpful. That doesn't change the fact he should have used the report button instead of the post button. After all, its just a warning.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
I generally agree with moderator decisions in the site, yet the "backseat moderation" definition was the one area with which I had qualms.
But this is just outrageous. A poster helping another out by linking a thread with relevant discussion somehow threatens the stability of the site enough to receive a warning?
All this does is encourage posters not to be helpful to others.
Seriously, I'm lost for words.
Pretty much this. Before I joined I lurked. After I joined I do a lot of lurking. And I've seen a lot of threads get closed, people get warned, etc for the silliest of reasons.
Maybe they don't realize how detrimental it is to discussion when people may be afraid to post something important out of fear of getting warned/banned?
I don't see a problem with someone linking another person to another relevant thread. If more people were encouraged to do that, it would take the burden off the moderators of the site.
That being said, there is a high amount of 'nerds' talking crazy about MTG and some sort of restrictions must be in place.
No. If I recall correctly, it's been brought up in the Mod Cave. It can't be altered or the risks/amount of work involved just isn't worth the slight benefit.
You are missing my point entirely.
If we can edit a bunch of nifty features for the site into the framework, surely someone could edit some static text for the report button, which has apparently misled some people. Why that hasn't happened is pretty odd.
Good job mods, thank you for keeping the site clean of all these ridiculous posts. Heaven forbid a normal user should be able help another member out. This kind of "teamwork" should never harmonize and everyone else should know their place. Makes me sick, these generous folk.
Would I have got a warning in the same situation if I´ve posted something like this, instead of BoJag´s three-word-one-liner (which argueably can be interpreted as tl;dr, just go there and thus received the warning)?
I feel that the "color indicator" on the back of double-faced cards is poor design. They haven't published updates to the official rules yet, but I believe that — barring any other way to legally determine the color of a night-side face — that this will become the official designation of the card's color when it is night-side up.
The main reason I think this poor design is because players with certain kinds of color-blindness are unable to determine card color by looking at ink color.
In the realm of more biased opinion, I also feel that shifting over the type line is bad typography, and I've always prized the Magic cards for steadily improving type design and accessibility with each card face update. I also really like how it sounds in text boxes when cards say something like "Pact of Negation is blue"
(okay, it´s still a lot of C&P, but it certainly _looks_ that I´ve put a lot more effort into it than the three-words-plus-a-link.)
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"Petals within petals within petals, tadpole. The truth lurks below an opulence of illusion."
—Neerdiv, fallowsage
The 'no backseat mod' rule basically keeps the anal retentive posters from making nothing but "this thread really belongs here" posts all day. At least that's how I came to understand it; it was never a huge issue to me.
To me, the big 3 cardinal sins a poster could commit were:
Using a gimmick to bump a thread or evade a suspension / ban.
Ripping
Trolling
In fact, I'm surprised to see a multipage thread about an issue like backseat modding. The m00se post is humorous despite being the most sarcastic post I've read since I was last online yesterday.
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Second post in this topic got a warning for backseat moderation when he was clearly just trying to be helpful
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=352805
He pointed a guy towards exactly what he was looking for. This makes me leary to ever help someone out by linking to a relevent topic.
•Backseat Modding
If you see a post that you believe needs to be moved, or that violates a site rule, please use the Report Button and allow a Moderator to determine the course of action. Telling a user their post should be moved, or that they violated a rule, does not contribute to the thread.
It's sort of a gray area I think. By providing a link to another thread of this forum that talks about the same thing it's like telling him "hey, there's already a thing for this you should not have posted that" which would qualify as backseat moderation.
Well that's what I think at least....
MTGS....Full of fail all day, everyday. Welcome to Hell!
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Yes, this user was helpful in linking to the proper conversation, but he did not do so within the rules. There are posts like this all the time, some like this are borderline and more helpful than bad, but the rule is to report a misplaced thread/post.
This was just a warning. The moderators exist to help control and organize the forums. He could have done the same thing by reporting that post instead of posting. If you see posts like this, by all means report them and will we handle them as suited.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
If I understand it correctly, the Backseat Moderation rule is put in place to prevent posters from tossing "your post is against forum rules" and contributing little else to the topic (indeed derailing the thread in question) and hence, equivalent of spam. Clearly, BoJag's link was helpful and cannot be construed as spam. I feel that we should be interpreting the backseat moderation rule in its spirit rather than by its letter.
However, even if the rule were to be interpreted by its letter, technically, BoJag probably do not believe that the post need to be moved (it would be more convenient to just provide help and request for the thread to be closed) or that the post violates a site rule (technically, it is not against site rules to ask if DFC is inconvenient to people with colour blindness).
Note that the OP himself/herself has no way of finding out that BoJag's recommended thread is the thread that I should be looking at if I have a query about the implication of DFC on colour blind individuals -- the title of the thread which BoJag linked to is "Color indicators are poor design" which is not indicative of a place I should look for if I am worried about the issue of colour blindness.
Of course, all this is academic given that we technically cannot appeal against another user's warning but it does seem helpful to understand the moderator's policy on this matter just so that we can make more constructive posts in the future
Being helpful doesn't preclude a post from being spam. (Although I agree that that's a very strict guideline.)
BoJag probably should've reported the OP with something like "needs a merge" or "duplicate thread." I can see how you view it as borderline, but it seems pretty clear cut to me.
I generally agree with moderator decisions in the site, yet the "backseat moderation" definition was the one area with which I had qualms.
But this is just outrageous. A poster helping another out by linking a thread with relevant discussion somehow threatens the stability of the site enough to receive a warning?
All this does is encourage posters not to be helpful to others.
Seriously, I'm lost for words.
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"Helpful spam" sounds like a horrible oxymoron imho.
Also, to quote the Report Function: -
The OP (miridigi) raises a legitimate concern on DFC and as such, it is hard to construe that post to be spam. At the same time, the link does not contain any real advertising material which would benefit BoJag himself/herself and does not contain any elements of harassment, fighting or rudeness -- it is not even against any of the known rules in the NCD subforum. As such, in BoJag's position, it would be difficult to see any real reason to click the Report button rather than to provide direct help.
This is probably why I won't exactly say that this is "clear cut", so to speak.
What you're quoting is embedded in the vB framework and not something put there by the staff. I don't even think the staff can change it.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
If all of those changes preventing a migration to a better web-ware exist, surely changing some text can be accomplished.
Oh really! That's good to know. There have been many times where I hit cancel on something I thought should be reported thanks to that little reminder. I'll just go ahead and ignore that from now on.
Arcadic, would you have considered it backseat modding if BoJag had include more text, something like, "There's already a thread about this topic here (link). You're not the only one concerned, but it was pointed out there that at least the colour blind can still see the difference in background texture." Is there enough substance there to call it a real post now?
I always thought that was a very classy way to handle borderline warnings where the guy didn't intentionally do anything wrong.
Fair enough but it doesn't seem to change how the OP (miridigi's) post was not explicitly against the forum rules and hence should be reported by BoJag rather than responded to. Is it a post that should be moved? Probably but the NCD rules has been silent on it -- as far as I can see -- as has the Main Forum Rules.
In fact, the second post correctly replies the OP's first question, i.e.: -
Based on the above arguments and arguments I made prior to this, it is difficult to see how BoJag has been "moderating" or "illegally performing moderator/staff-specific duties" rather than helping as a friendly passer-by.
The main reason why I am actually posting wall of texts is not because I know BoJag but because this seems to be what I would have done (though I am more likely to provide the link then bring the OP to the attention of a mod for his/her discretion). In the interest of preventing warnings/infractions, I thought I'd have this clarified by a staff before hand
...I don't get the point of spam infractions anyway. This is a message board, where people POST, so why get warnings for posting?
RUG Riku, Two is Better Than One
UB [PRIMER] Wrexial, Classic Control
RG Radha, Ramp's Theme Goes With Everything
No. If I recall correctly, it's been brought up in the Mod Cave. It can't be altered or the risks/amount of work involved just isn't worth the slight benefit.
Dunno, not my business. You were framing an argument on the report post reminder which was based on information you lacked. I was simply filling you in on why that message is what it is, not commenting on this minor confusion about a rule.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
I understand its MTG Salvation's site, and therefore it's their rules, but weren't forums created on the foundation of peer to peer assistance?
And if we didnt, the forums would be more complex than Washington Bueracracy, am i right Extremicon, Orb of Chaos and Beer?
And when i report posts, i always list why, even if its something minor (right forum, wrong subforum) to very major (i wont go there)
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyI think your missing the point of the rule. Should we allow such posts to continue and be ok, it encourages others to do so within similar situations. The proper thing to do when a thread is out of place or a duplicate is to report it, not post in the thread the user's mistake.
I can admit this is a borderline post. I can admit it was helpful. That doesn't change the fact he should have used the report button instead of the post button. After all, its just a warning.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Pretty much this. Before I joined I lurked. After I joined I do a lot of lurking. And I've seen a lot of threads get closed, people get warned, etc for the silliest of reasons.
Maybe they don't realize how detrimental it is to discussion when people may be afraid to post something important out of fear of getting warned/banned?
I don't see a problem with someone linking another person to another relevant thread. If more people were encouraged to do that, it would take the burden off the moderators of the site.
That being said, there is a high amount of 'nerds' talking crazy about MTG and some sort of restrictions must be in place.
If we can edit a bunch of nifty features for the site into the framework, surely someone could edit some static text for the report button, which has apparently misled some people. Why that hasn't happened is pretty odd.
(okay, it´s still a lot of C&P, but it certainly _looks_ that I´ve put a lot more effort into it than the three-words-plus-a-link.)
—Neerdiv, fallowsage
To me, the big 3 cardinal sins a poster could commit were:
Using a gimmick to bump a thread or evade a suspension / ban.
Ripping
Trolling
In fact, I'm surprised to see a multipage thread about an issue like backseat modding. The m00se post is humorous despite being the most sarcastic post I've read since I was last online yesterday.