That's a risk we run with any conversation on the internet. It doesn't matter what it's about, there will be trolls, and they will flame for the benefit of either side. It doesn't matter where you are either, MTGSal, 4chan, youtube...trolls will always be there.
And I can almost guarantee someone will troll against this post.
Basically the isue with the Gutter comes down to this: the logic used to support it is badly flawed. The reasons we've been given for its existence are that people need a quiet place to vent their frustrations. That's fine. But then why the exclusivity and secrecy? Virtually everything else on this site is fair game. The Gutter is some weird secret and it really sticks out.
If the Gutter mods want to have a private club where they can talk **** with their friends then that's fine. Just say so. But stop giving high-minded justifications for it.
The reasons for the Gutter's "secrecy" have been explained quite adequately: the Gutter is an area where most rules don't apply; a rule of significance here is the NSFW one. We don't want the profanity and otherwise unacceptable material that's allowed in the Gutter to randomly show up on people's screens at times when it could get them in trouble or trip content filters. Not to mention if you don't want to be exposed to the filth that goes on there you don't have to; as far as I'm aware there's no way to "ignore" an entire forum section. Making it restricted access is the only way to accomplish that.
As far as the exclusivity issue, well I'd say the cliquish nature is the worst thing about it but in that respect it's no different than a clan. So *shrug*
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
The reasons we've been given for its existence are that people need a quiet place to vent their frustrations. That's fine. But then why the exclusivity and secrecy?
It's rather simple, some people just can't hack the Gutter. They can't quite come to terms with the environment in there (generally, I believe, because they take things too seriously) and they wind up unhappy and sometimes that leads to drama. That's why we're exclusive, it allows us to weed out the ones we feel can't hack it or will otherwise be a detriment to the Gutter (say, for instance, they can't keep Gutter behavior inside the Gutter where it belongs).
The secrecy is much the same. The more people know (or think they know) about the Gutter, the more we see issues like this one popping up. We'd rather just leave you in ignorance, be ignored and do our own thing in private. What's said in the Gutter belongs nowhere but in there for the most part so there's nothing to really divulge anyway.
I think it comes down to cost/benefit. Is it really worth the drama it creates?
I believe that this thread about the Gutter was created by a non-Gutter member who does not and has not posted in the Gutter to date. If you can prove me wrong, feel free to do so, but the drama was created by something other than the Gutter in this instance. Unless you meant that to be ironic.
This leads back to a previous post about what forum drama was caused by "The Gutter" in the past 6 months? Past 12? And if there was any, did any of the people involved causing all this trouble receive no repremand for the breach of forum rules they caused?
The overwhelming argument against "The Gutter" is the same general token that comes with people talking down "The Government" or "The Establishment" or "The Man" in that they really can't identify what they mean by this. An overwhelming number of posters who do post in the Gutter do not get involved in "drama" situations or do not do so in a manner that breaks forum rules. There are very few, if any that can be named, posters who also post in "the Gutter" who post on the forums and create new drama. In fact, in an overwhelming majority of situations involving "the Gutter," "the Gutter" has either offered counterpoint or tried to fight against the tide of Drama. You can essentially boil that down into "pissing in an ocean of piss" but "the Gutter" has by and large responded to drama negatively rather than being a source thereof. In fact, it is situations and threads, including this, where the Gutter has responded negatively to situations that ask for drama to be had.
So, let me return to one of my initial points: did you make that post to be ironic?
I'm not blaming anything on any group of people, at least some ambiguously defined "Gutter troublemakers." I'm saying that with all the nonsense that goes on here, a good deal of it is centered around the controversy of the Gutter - whether it's about Gutter bannings or paranoia of non-Gutter members or the defensiveness of self-appointed Gutter advocates is irrelevant. It doesn't matter who's stirring up isolated incidents.
The last time the Gutter came up in the past 6 months or a year, aside from single threads asking what the Gutter was and individual users being butthurt about not being allowed back, was this thread which was not made by a Gutter member. It is not the Gutter's responsibility that users carry themselves in accordance to the forum rules. It is each user's responsibility to carry him or herself in accordance with the MTGS rules. You cannot blame the immaturity of individual users on a Site or a section of a Site. They are what they are.
If you wanna be able to say anything you want in the Gutter, and you know at least some people can see you, then own up to it and take care of the debris that you generate. If you wanna jab at someone who annoys you or use as many minority slurs as you like, don't expect the "no flaming rules" thing to protect you if it blows up. Again, to whom it may concern.
There's nothing to own up to. If you go around using slurs against someone on the forums, you get infracted. If you go around using slurs behind closed doors, you don't. If I called you some unkind slur word right now at my PC, there would probably be absolutely 0 repercussion for it. If I typed it out in this sentence, I would probably be demodded and infracted as well as cause a conundrum of a crapstorm of drama. I don't see how that's not "taking care of it," because if I keep that act up, eventually I'm going to find myself at the wrong end of a banhammer. The Gutter operates under rules not of the forums proper. Kick your feet and stick out your tongue all you want, but that's the way it's always been and aside from people who make SYM threads and complain about it (most of whom do not post in the gutter, natch), it hasn't been a problem.
You know what I find really amusing? Most of you guys who hate the gutter so much now, who want to see it destroyed, once requested access to the gutter yourself and were then kicked out. I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that you're doing this out of bitterness, or anything like that, but it sure does cast doubt on your arguments...many of you still make gimmiks to post in the gutter, or at least read it.
It's like 'if you can't join 'em, beat 'em," I guess.
That argument was made over the course of the thread by most of the gutterites. Well recognized. However, the problem with it is that, simply, how should we know what's in the gutter until we looked? (potential answer) We saw stuff that appalled us, and we don't want that on MTGS.
Of course, as far as the gimmick sitch goes, I have no answer to that. Of course it's a lose-lose argument; either I like the gutter and don't see the problem, or I want it gone. Can't go both ways. This will come back to haunt me in this discussion again and again. I knew it from the beginning.
P.S. I posted my last two posts in this thread, went to bed, and immediately realized they were incredibly stupid and weren't going to help anyone. Proven, I suppose.
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That argument was made over the course of the thread by most of the gutterites. Well recognized. However, the problem with it is that, simply, how should we know what's in the gutter until we looked? (potential answer) We saw stuff that appalled us, and we don't want that on MTGS.
I'd buy that, sure. But what about the members who keep making gimmicks?
But not from you:
Of course, as far as the gimmick sitch goes, I have no answer to that. Of course it's a lose-lose argument; either I like the gutter and don't see the problem, or I want it gone. Can't go both ways. This will come back to haunt me in this discussion again and again. I knew it from the beginning.
Pick one...do you like the gutter? If so, make a gimmick and stop trying to get it destroyed. If not, by all means, go ahead. BUT stop making gimmicks.
To put it bluntly, the Gutter is the home of an exclusive, vindictive clique that targets certain members for sheer amusement based on, for example, sexual orientation or lifestyle and puts forward efforts to torment, antagonize, or otherwise interfere with those people in the hopes of getting them banned or forcing them to leave the forums. Members of this clique include both regular members and mods. The Gutter is basically a place where these immature individuals act out in a way that would not be possible on the main forums.
If anyone would like proof I would be happy to PM you unedited recent posts.
To put it bluntly, the Gutter is an exclusive, vindictive clique that targets certain members and puts forward efforts to torment, antagonize, or otherwise interfere with those people in the hopes of getting them banned. Members of this clique include both regular members and mods. The Gutter is basically a place where these immature individuals act out in a way that would not be possible on the main forums.
If anyone would like proof I would be happy to PM you unedited recent posts.
Howabout proof that these "efforts", which are in actuality only words in a private subforum, are acted upon?
To put it bluntly, the Gutter is the home of an exclusive, vindictive clique that targets certain members for sheer amusement based on, for example, sexual orientation or lifestyle and puts forward efforts to torment, antagonize, or otherwise interfere with those people in the hopes of getting them banned or forcing them to leave the forums. Members of this clique include both regular members and mods. The Gutter is basically a place where these immature individuals act out in a way that would not be possible on the main forums.
If anyone would like proof I would be happy to PM you unedited recent posts.
Idle talk != Proof. We've established the Gutter is an exclusivist din of circle jerking and smack talk. Your statement of the obvious and well established is not only unnecessary, but extraneous and untimely.
Look, people. I can say that I want to shoot the president in the head, and then let's say, he get's shot in the head. No sane person would say that I am automatically guilty of this crime - my word is by no means evidence. It's the same thing here.
Idle talk != Proof. We've established the Gutter is an exclusivist din of circle jerking and smack talk. Your statement of the obvious and well established is not only unnecessary, but extraneous and untimely.
Well, I would post evidence, but it's likely that a mod who also happens to be a Gutter member would snip it, just like last time. Or shall I? If it's just 'talk', what do you have to hide, after all?
Well, I would post evidence, but it's likely that a mod who also happens to be a Gutter member would snip it, just like last time. Or shall I? If it's just 'talk', what do you have to hide, after all?
I've already seen your "proof" and it's just more of the same circle jerking pap that has been beaten to death in this thread and only illustrates the fact that you're restating the obvious.
edit: Users with Gutter access aren't allowed to post Gutter content because it's already been established the content of the Gutter is not acceptable on MTGS. Try to keep up.
I think this argument has been beating to death to the bitter end and is getting to be more or less an annoyance cause a handful of people want to keep dragging this discussion out EVEN more so then it was needed.
guess why this gets qft'd.
honestly, just let this die for gods sake.
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I've already seen your "proof" and it's just more of the same circle jerking pap that has been beaten to death in this thread and only illustrates the fact that you're restating the obvious.
I'm beating a dead horse here because as a prominent Gutter member you will never change your views and if I try to post anything to contradict your party line you'll simply snip it, even if I edit out the naughty bits.
That being said, I bid you a good night. I'm sure this discussion will continue another time.
Your past few posts are just seeping with trolling.
Infraction issued.
You are posting with idle threats and starting a baseless argument here.
I'm beating a dead horse here because as a prominent Gutter member you will never change your views and if I try to post anything to contradict your party line you'll simply snip it, even if I edit out the naughty bits.
That being said, I bid you a good night. I'm sure this discussion will continue another time.
Omniedit:
All you are doing is illustrating that the only people stirring up drama are the ones butthurt over being banned from the Gutter. Congrats, brave soldier. You're actually perfectly illustrating my "party line" to the T.
Omniedit:
All you are doing is illustrating that the only people stirring up drama are the ones butthurt over being banned from the Gutter. Congrats, brave soldier. You're actually perfectly illustrating my "party line" to the T.
You guys have played this card over and over again and all I have to say is that its pointless. I, myself, am living proof against your argument. I've never attempted to join the gutter and I've never been gutter banned. I'm in no way vindictive toward it but I want it gone. Of course, there may be reason why I should be vindictive toward it now. I'm sure you gutterites are slandering and badmouthing the anti-gutterites as we speak.
P.S. I might be wrong but I believe God of Cyanide would fall into the same category as me as well.
How is this discussion productive? Clearly, we are not going anywhere. There are plenty of members that love the gutter, and plenty that hate it. But there is a far larger number that could care less, and a even larger number that don't even know what it is. And you know why? The gutter has an impact, and by impact I mean a very light affect, on a very small minority of members. The gutter keeps the vitriolic caused by human interaction away from the masses; get rid of it and this thread in just a preview of what SYM and forums like Clans would turn in to. That, or it would turn into the external site some of you have proposed, or discussions on AIM. If you truly believe that the gutter plots against the proletariat, then wouldn't closing it only make it worse, no longer giving moderators a chance to monitor it?
So, could those of you bringing up this issue just drop it? Please?
How is this discussion productive? Clearly, we are not going anywhere. There are plenty of members that love the gutter, and plenty that hate it. But there is a far larger number that could care less, and a even larger number that don't even know what it is. And you know why? The gutter has an impact, and by impact I mean a very light affect, on a very small minority of members. The gutter keeps the vitriolic caused by human interaction away from the masses; get rid of it and this thread in just a preview of what SYM and forums like Clans would turn in to. That, or it would turn into the external site some of you have proposed, or discussions on AIM. If you truly believe that the gutter plots against the proletariat, then wouldn't closing it only make it worse, no longer giving moderators a chance to monitor it?
So, could those of you bringing up this issue just drop it? Please?
thank you. this has been said a lot now. so can we listen to one of the posts explaining this? please?
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I'm in no way vindictive toward it but I want it gone.
Why?
We've established that members who are disruptive on the forums who are Gutter members and not Gutter members alike are punished according to the rules. We've established that Gutter and non-Gutter members are responsible for drama, yet it is much more frequent that non-Gutter members begin drama-bearing discussion, as is the case with this thread.
So why? And why is your opinion of a section of the forums you don't contribute to or interact with matter? How do these forums impact you in any meaningful or worthwhile way that makes it worthy of your displeasure?
The end result is that, ultimately, they don't. Page one of this thread. We're going back there now right now:
I'm sure there are people at work that don't like me, and there are people at work I don't like. As long as we each treat each other with respect face-to-face, it doesn't really matter what out personal feeling towards each other are.
When there is action that does make personal feelings override the "just get along well enough" basic interaction, that's when things like Warnings and Infractions occur. What happened to shindash isn't the result of some longstanding fued the staff, gutter or anyone else had with her. She broke the forum rules and was punished for it. When she continued to flaunt these rules despite being asked not to, she was banned for it. She chose to do those things. The Gutter, the staff, no one made her do that. She did. She is her responsability. The posters in the Gutter are their respective responsabilities. You are your responsability. Unless you are incapable of interacting civilly with other users on MTGS, worry about you and only you.
When there is action that does make personal feelings override the "just get along well enough" basic interaction, that's when things like Warnings and Infractions occur. What happened to shindash isn't the result of some longstanding fued the staff, gutter or anyone else had with her. She broke the forum rules and was punished for it. When she continued to flaunt these rules despite being asked not to, she was banned for it. She chose to do those things. The Gutter, the staff, no one made her do that. She did. She is her responsability. The posters in the Gutter are their respective responsabilities. You are your responsability. Unless you are incapable of interacting civilly with other users on MTGS, worry about you and only you.
Why can't you respect Sakura, even now that she's banned? Calling someone their old name is just plain disrespectful and kinda petty. If someone called me BitsyTheInfraggable I would probably put them on iggy. The thing is that no one can put you on iggy because you're a mod. I found that out when I tried to ignore Sapphire Tri when he was a guttermod. >.< If you're a mod you should display some modicum of respect and maturity given your responsibilities. No one was even talking about Sakura. Howler's post was about everyone and yet you somehow brought things back to an unrelated, even by your own admission, topic.
I've never attempted to join the gutter and I've never been gutter banned. I'm in no way vindictive toward it but I want it gone.
If you (in a general sense) have never been in the Gutter, then I don't think you should be arguing for or against it. Because you don't really know what it is. You've formed an opinion based on a small amount of (mis)information. It's like reading the back of Moby Dick and then trying to debate on Herman Melville's use of symbolism; you really don't know what you're talking about.
"Oh," but you say, "I've seen the quotes that were posted here! I've seen enough!" Pfh. Give me 20 minutes, and I could find quotes from Debate that would rally support behind that getting shut down.
My point is, you saw a small number of out-of-context quotes. I'm not trying to defend the content of those quotes, nor do I have to; you got a very small glimpse into a perticularly nasty part of the Gutter. In essence, you saw the worst of it. What you don't know is that posts like what you saw comprise a very small percentage of the Gutter's content.
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That's a risk we run with any conversation on the internet. It doesn't matter what it's about, there will be trolls, and they will flame for the benefit of either side. It doesn't matter where you are either, MTGSal, 4chan, youtube...trolls will always be there.
And I can almost guarantee someone will troll against this post.
If the Gutter mods want to have a private club where they can talk **** with their friends then that's fine. Just say so. But stop giving high-minded justifications for it.
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As far as the exclusivity issue, well I'd say the cliquish nature is the worst thing about it but in that respect it's no different than a clan. So *shrug*
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It's rather simple, some people just can't hack the Gutter. They can't quite come to terms with the environment in there (generally, I believe, because they take things too seriously) and they wind up unhappy and sometimes that leads to drama. That's why we're exclusive, it allows us to weed out the ones we feel can't hack it or will otherwise be a detriment to the Gutter (say, for instance, they can't keep Gutter behavior inside the Gutter where it belongs).
The secrecy is much the same. The more people know (or think they know) about the Gutter, the more we see issues like this one popping up. We'd rather just leave you in ignorance, be ignored and do our own thing in private. What's said in the Gutter belongs nowhere but in there for the most part so there's nothing to really divulge anyway.
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Let me clarify for you that anyone who breaks Gutter rules gets Gutterbanned. No one in the gutter is above the Gutter rules!
I believe that this thread about the Gutter was created by a non-Gutter member who does not and has not posted in the Gutter to date. If you can prove me wrong, feel free to do so, but the drama was created by something other than the Gutter in this instance. Unless you meant that to be ironic.
This leads back to a previous post about what forum drama was caused by "The Gutter" in the past 6 months? Past 12? And if there was any, did any of the people involved causing all this trouble receive no repremand for the breach of forum rules they caused?
The overwhelming argument against "The Gutter" is the same general token that comes with people talking down "The Government" or "The Establishment" or "The Man" in that they really can't identify what they mean by this. An overwhelming number of posters who do post in the Gutter do not get involved in "drama" situations or do not do so in a manner that breaks forum rules. There are very few, if any that can be named, posters who also post in "the Gutter" who post on the forums and create new drama. In fact, in an overwhelming majority of situations involving "the Gutter," "the Gutter" has either offered counterpoint or tried to fight against the tide of Drama. You can essentially boil that down into "pissing in an ocean of piss" but "the Gutter" has by and large responded to drama negatively rather than being a source thereof. In fact, it is situations and threads, including this, where the Gutter has responded negatively to situations that ask for drama to be had.
So, let me return to one of my initial points: did you make that post to be ironic?
The last time the Gutter came up in the past 6 months or a year, aside from single threads asking what the Gutter was and individual users being butthurt about not being allowed back, was this thread which was not made by a Gutter member. It is not the Gutter's responsibility that users carry themselves in accordance to the forum rules. It is each user's responsibility to carry him or herself in accordance with the MTGS rules. You cannot blame the immaturity of individual users on a Site or a section of a Site. They are what they are.
Really? Because when someone invades my privacy, I just call them an invasive git and tell them to mind their own business. To each his own.
There's nothing to own up to. If you go around using slurs against someone on the forums, you get infracted. If you go around using slurs behind closed doors, you don't. If I called you some unkind slur word right now at my PC, there would probably be absolutely 0 repercussion for it. If I typed it out in this sentence, I would probably be demodded and infracted as well as cause a conundrum of a crapstorm of drama. I don't see how that's not "taking care of it," because if I keep that act up, eventually I'm going to find myself at the wrong end of a banhammer. The Gutter operates under rules not of the forums proper. Kick your feet and stick out your tongue all you want, but that's the way it's always been and aside from people who make SYM threads and complain about it (most of whom do not post in the gutter, natch), it hasn't been a problem.
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It's like 'if you can't join 'em, beat 'em," I guess.
Of course, as far as the gimmick sitch goes, I have no answer to that. Of course it's a lose-lose argument; either I like the gutter and don't see the problem, or I want it gone. Can't go both ways. This will come back to haunt me in this discussion again and again. I knew it from the beginning.
P.S. I posted my last two posts in this thread, went to bed, and immediately realized they were incredibly stupid and weren't going to help anyone. Proven, I suppose.
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I'd buy that, sure. But what about the members who keep making gimmicks?
But not from you:
Pick one...do you like the gutter? If so, make a gimmick and stop trying to get it destroyed. If not, by all means, go ahead. BUT stop making gimmicks.
You can't have your gutter and eat it too.
If anyone would like proof I would be happy to PM you unedited recent posts.
Howabout proof that these "efforts", which are in actuality only words in a private subforum, are acted upon?
Ask and ye shall receive.
Idle talk != Proof. We've established the Gutter is an exclusivist din of circle jerking and smack talk. Your statement of the obvious and well established is not only unnecessary, but extraneous and untimely.
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Well, I would post evidence, but it's likely that a mod who also happens to be a Gutter member would snip it, just like last time. Or shall I? If it's just 'talk', what do you have to hide, after all?
I've already seen your "proof" and it's just more of the same circle jerking pap that has been beaten to death in this thread and only illustrates the fact that you're restating the obvious.
edit: Users with Gutter access aren't allowed to post Gutter content because it's already been established the content of the Gutter is not acceptable on MTGS. Try to keep up.
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guess why this gets qft'd.
honestly, just let this die for gods sake.
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I'm beating a dead horse here because as a prominent Gutter member you will never change your views and if I try to post anything to contradict your party line you'll simply snip it, even if I edit out the naughty bits.
That being said, I bid you a good night. I'm sure this discussion will continue another time.
Your past few posts are just seeping with trolling.
Infraction issued.
You are posting with idle threats and starting a baseless argument here.
Omniedit:
All you are doing is illustrating that the only people stirring up drama are the ones butthurt over being banned from the Gutter. Congrats, brave soldier. You're actually perfectly illustrating my "party line" to the T.
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You guys have played this card over and over again and all I have to say is that its pointless. I, myself, am living proof against your argument. I've never attempted to join the gutter and I've never been gutter banned. I'm in no way vindictive toward it but I want it gone. Of course, there may be reason why I should be vindictive toward it now. I'm sure you gutterites are slandering and badmouthing the anti-gutterites as we speak.
P.S. I might be wrong but I believe God of Cyanide would fall into the same category as me as well.
So, could those of you bringing up this issue just drop it? Please?
thank you. this has been said a lot now. so can we listen to one of the posts explaining this? please?
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Why?
We've established that members who are disruptive on the forums who are Gutter members and not Gutter members alike are punished according to the rules. We've established that Gutter and non-Gutter members are responsible for drama, yet it is much more frequent that non-Gutter members begin drama-bearing discussion, as is the case with this thread.
So why? And why is your opinion of a section of the forums you don't contribute to or interact with matter? How do these forums impact you in any meaningful or worthwhile way that makes it worthy of your displeasure?
The end result is that, ultimately, they don't. Page one of this thread. We're going back there now right now:
When there is action that does make personal feelings override the "just get along well enough" basic interaction, that's when things like Warnings and Infractions occur. What happened to shindash isn't the result of some longstanding fued the staff, gutter or anyone else had with her. She broke the forum rules and was punished for it. When she continued to flaunt these rules despite being asked not to, she was banned for it. She chose to do those things. The Gutter, the staff, no one made her do that. She did. She is her responsability. The posters in the Gutter are their respective responsabilities. You are your responsability. Unless you are incapable of interacting civilly with other users on MTGS, worry about you and only you.
edit: 200 get.
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Why can't you respect Sakura, even now that she's banned? Calling someone their old name is just plain disrespectful and kinda petty. If someone called me BitsyTheInfraggable I would probably put them on iggy. The thing is that no one can put you on iggy because you're a mod. I found that out when I tried to ignore Sapphire Tri when he was a guttermod. >.< If you're a mod you should display some modicum of respect and maturity given your responsibilities. No one was even talking about Sakura. Howler's post was about everyone and yet you somehow brought things back to an unrelated, even by your own admission, topic.
If you (in a general sense) have never been in the Gutter, then I don't think you should be arguing for or against it. Because you don't really know what it is. You've formed an opinion based on a small amount of (mis)information. It's like reading the back of Moby Dick and then trying to debate on Herman Melville's use of symbolism; you really don't know what you're talking about.
"Oh," but you say, "I've seen the quotes that were posted here! I've seen enough!" Pfh. Give me 20 minutes, and I could find quotes from Debate that would rally support behind that getting shut down.
My point is, you saw a small number of out-of-context quotes. I'm not trying to defend the content of those quotes, nor do I have to; you got a very small glimpse into a perticularly nasty part of the Gutter. In essence, you saw the worst of it. What you don't know is that posts like what you saw comprise a very small percentage of the Gutter's content.