So this keeps coming up and derailing other threads, so I figured I'd make a thread about it for people to discuss. Thoughts on the Gutter seem to roughly fall into two groups.
1: The Gutter is a place for users to vent their frustrations without the fear of being infracted and is therefore a useful feature of MTGS.
2: The Gutter is a place where trouble gets brewed up and spills out onto the rest of the forums.
What do you all think?
I think this argument has been beating to death to the bitter end and is getting to be more or less an annoyance cause a handful of people want to keep dragging this discussion out EVEN more so then it was needed.
Saph: A thread needs to be created, just on this subject (much like the 'strict moderation' thread) simply so people can see that the argument is rehashed. Leave it somewhere near the top. Let people argue it to death. Then just point and say 'RTFT'. We didn't truly have a catch-all strict moderation thread, we don't have a catch-all gutter thread. Finish it off, close it, point to it.
So this keeps coming up and derailing other threads, so I figured I'd make a thread about it for people to discuss. Thoughts on the Gutter seem to roughly fall into two groups.
1: The Gutter is a place for users to vent their frustrations without the fear of being infracted and is therefore a useful feature of MTGS.
2: The Gutter is a place where trouble gets brewed up and spills out onto the rest of the forums.
What do you all think?
3: Users who post material from the gutter outside the gutter or otherwise spread trouble started in the gutter are infracted, regardless, and punished like any other user would.
If you're not a member of the gutter, don't worry about it. If you are or were, don't take your stuff outside of the gutter. If an issue comes up for discussion inside of the gutter about threads outside of the gutter, remember that you're not in the gutter when you're in the gutter when you're in that thread.
Clean and cut. I don't think there needs to be more discussion on this issue.
So, if people talk behind your back at work, and slander you, you just don't worry about it?
1. Slander is spoken. Libel is written. Slander and libel must also be proven to be untrue, which is one of the core principles of either tort. Throwing the word around cheapens its meaning to the point where anything that makes you butthurt is slander or libel, which is not true.
2. People "talk behind eachother's backs" IRL. People do it on the public forums. People do it on one another's myspaces. It's part of people interacting. Sucks that it happens, but it does. I think people talking about one another on a web forum is pretty low on the "things that are actually important in real life" chart, somewhere between "am I eating too much garlic?" and "do I have enough clean socks to get through the work week?"
Its kinda hard not to worry when you have people PM'ing you periodically with "You know what they said about you NOW?"
It actually isn't hard to worry about if you just ignore the PM or realize you have better things to do with your time than be concerned with what a group of anonymous people on the internet think about you and the way you present yourself on a Magical Card Game Forum.
So, if people talk behind your back at work, and slander you, you just don't worry about it?
Um... yeah, kinda.
I'm sure there are people at work that don't like me, and there are people at work I don't like. As long as we each treat each other with respect face-to-face, it doesn't really matter what out personal feeling towards each other are.
And people, remember, this isn't your work, or your circle of friends; it's an internet forum about a card game. You popularity and reputation here have absolutely no bearing on real life. So what if a small group of people on the internet don't like you?
1. Slander is spoken. Libel is written. Slander and libel must also be proven to be untrue, which is one of the core principles of either tort. Throwing the word around cheapens its meaning to the point where anything that makes you butthurt is slander or libel, which is not true.
It actually isn't hard to worry about if you just ignore the PM or realize you have better things to do with your time than be concerned with what a group of anonymous people on the internet think about you and the way you present yourself on a Magical Card Game Forum.
By that logic you should not worry about what people think about the said sub forum, and would not be posting here. Since you would not care about what a "group of anonymous people" thinks about it.
So this keeps coming up and derailing other threads, so I figured I'd make a thread about it for people to discuss. Thoughts on the Gutter seem to roughly fall into two groups.
1: The Gutter is a place for users to vent their frustrations without the fear of being infracted and is therefore a useful feature of MTGS.
2: The Gutter is a place where trouble gets brewed up and spills out onto the rest of the forums.
What do you all think?
The Gutter is a place full of crude jokes/insults, thats it. nothing else, but, its absolutely hilarious.
the one "problem", if you will I had with The Gutter, was the amont of Racial slurs I heard. but, all in all, theyre just words, so ignore them, or, do as I do, and laugh at the most ignorant and un-original insults of all time.
Soron: The problem with your argument (that Kijin shouldn't worry) is that the question at hand is that if the Gutter is enough of a problem to warrant being discontinued. That's not just talk, that's actual argument meant for action. He can't ignore this.
Soron: The problem with your argument (that Kijin shouldn't worry) is that the question at hand is that if the Gutter is enough of a problem to warrant being discontinued. That's not just talk, that's actual argument meant for action. He can't ignore this.
personally, i dont think its that bad, but thats just me.
you must remember that people will always talk, always. If you let yourself get pissed at what a bunch of random ppl on the interent say, then you cant live life normally.
IF the buisness in the Gutter gets out to the Main forums, it should be up to the mods to decide what to do. imo of course
Soron: The problem with your argument (that Kijin shouldn't worry) is that the question at hand is that if the Gutter is enough of a problem to warrant being discontinued.
Weaver: I don't really think it's a bad thing either. Was just saying, you can't ignore this like you -can- ignore gossip.
Soron: Two completely different things. A post saying he can't understand you is simply a jab. You can ignore jabs. A jab does nothing to you unless you -let- it do something to you.
However, a discussion to break down the gutter -will- do something either way. Either it keeps going, or it doesn't. That's something that adds to an action.
Example: Me saying that the President of the United States (whoever they may be at the time, this isn't a Bush comment) is a bad leader is a Jab. They can roll with it, it doesn't matter. Me saying that the President of the United States' job is jeopardizing this country and that he needs to be impeached is something that's leading to an action. The former he can ignore, it's an opinion. The latter calls for action, he needs to respond.
Soron: Two completely different things. A post saying he can't understand you is simply a jab. You can ignore jabs. A jab does nothing to you unless you -let- it do something to you.
I can and did(I have not and will not respond), but its still an action. A Jab is an action, as much as anything can be an action on the web.
By the same token Kijin could just not care if people like the gutter, or if the gutter goes bye bye. He could choose not to care, and I am forced to ignore jabs. (or get warning/infractions)
However, a discussion to break down the gutter -will- do something either way. Either it keeps going, or it doesn't. That's something that adds to an action.
The mod's like it, so it will stay. THAT logic is irrefutable.
Soron: The problem with your argument (that Kijin shouldn't worry) is that the question at hand is that if the Gutter is enough of a problem to warrant being discontinued. That's not just talk, that's actual argument meant for action. He can't ignore this.
If it is a select user or users, they should be dealt with the same way every other user who steps out of line on the forums does: they get infracted, repremanded, or otherwise punished for their actions. This is what happens in every other case on the forums and despite the "gutter" being different, the situation is going on the forums proper and shouldn't be handled differently just because the user posts in the gutter. You wouldn't treat a user differently because, for example, he posts on 4chan and comes to MTGS and breaks rules, would you? You probably wouldn't even know he posts there unless he outright said he did or pressed him for the information. The only difference is that the gutter is accesed through MTGS.
By that logic you should not worry about what people think about the said sub forum, and would not be posting here. Since you would not care about what a "group of anonymous people" thinks about it.
That's not a logical comparison. The topic of this thread is whether the gutter is damaging to the forums, based on the fact that people can talk smack. It's an issue and point of discussion, not a "let's make fun of the gutter" thread. Either that or you're missing the point of my discussion in this thread and possibly the point of the thread itself.
Indeed, it only effects me here, on the internet, so this is the only place I talk about it.
What affect does it have? Does it disable your keyboard and delete your MTGS account? Does it edit pictures of homosexual pornography into your posts? Do the PMs delete other emails in your email box that come from your boss? Do they block your access to other websites? If all they do is appear in your PM box and nothing more, that is no palpable effect on your internet usage. If it has no actual effect on you, in your daily going ons or use of the internet, doing anything other than ignoring it is trolling yourself.
The only difference is that the gutter is accesed through MTGS.
I am sorry. I just read the site rules again. They said they were for ANYWHERE on THIS site. T hey say they are for the whole site. If you do not believe me, go talk to Condor about what "specific exceptions" means. The Gutter would have to go through each of the forum rules and say in exactly what way they did not apply there. Which, last time I checked, they did not. Someone might want to 'get on that.' If your going to try to get me on a literal interpretation of the rules, then YES, the Gutter breaks them.
This is exactly what I said. Did you not read before linking me to an extraneous document?
Umm... reports can be written, sir. Its not what you said, you only gave the legal bit.
Also, you missed the first bit about ANY 'defaming' being slander.
I am sorry. I just read the site rules again. They said they were for ANYWHERE on THIS site. If your going to try to get me on a literal interpretation of the rules, then YES, the Gutter breaks them. I see no 'Gutter cause' in the site rules, and they say they are for the whole site.
The gutter isn't part of MTGS. That's the difference. It's an offshoot. If you log on to MTGS, you cannot access the gutter unless you are signed up to be a member of the gutter. Literal or otherwise, it's not meant to be part of the MTGS experience.
Umm... reports can be written, sir. Its not what you said, you only gave the legal bit.
Also, you missed the first bit about ANY 'defaming' being slander.
Legally, anything defaming isn't slander. Someone making you butthurt isn't against the law. The definition saying slander isn't spoken makes the word Libel extraneous. It is also not correct. Citing "dictionary.com" is akin to citing wikipedia instead of a real source. The real sources, like merriam webster and american heritage dictionary, support my point of view and are generally accepted by the educated world over "what dictionary.com's content says."
I would personally argue that it's spilling over, or indeed was (best examples: good week thread, saph's old sig directly after Sakura's banning).
Also, the points that soron are making, that there's such things going on...
Well of course, you'd be upset if people were talking about you behind your back, if a little birdie comes just to cause trouble, if anything from your moral integrity to your sanity to even your gender or humanity is being questioned... You might have a decent ground to be a little bit upset about this.
@Kijin: it doesn't matter if it's automatically slander or not.
EDIT: To stop spilling over from the other thread:
Cadet, I'm gutterbanned. Not that I particularly mind, but I'm saying this so you know that I can't access those posts regardless. They may be real. However, my point stands true. You cannot say that mods cannot have their own opinions on people. As long as those opinions don't affect their actions towards said people, the opinion is okay. The Gutter is a place to let those opinions out, free of rules again
For whatever reason, I'm still drawing this line from the gutter, AoK, Annorax, YuanTi, and MikeyG's (that's 4 people who could ban her, and indeed the person who banned her was included) hatred of Sakura, and her being banned because WiccanWitch said that she missed the Gaymers. If that counts as suspension evasion, why wasn't Hoduko banned when his girlfriend posted, (not exactly, but very close) "I just got off the phone with hoduko, he said you suspended him for a ****ing year?"
That seems just as bad as WiccanWitch saying that "Sakura says misses you guys, she can't see this thread."
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I was using the English definition of the word. To avoid any further confusion, let me just say that when I use English words, I mean the English meaning, not the legal meaning, unless I stated other wise.
My favourite fact about the gutter: the people who complain most about it outside and the people who were most annoyed to be banned inside. Coincidence?
GC, your statement makes no sense. Reading it, your favorite fact about the gutter is those who complain about it and those who are annoyed most about being banned, and you're asking if this is a coincidence.
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My favourite fact about the gutter: the people who complain most about it outside and the people who were most annoyed to be banned inside. Coincidence?
i resent that. i joined today, and got banned after 30 mins. I love the gutter, it was so funny my stomach hurts from laughing so much.
It is obvious that the gutter is starting to cause trouble outside its borders, and like i said before, now it becomes a mods issue
Well of course, you'd be upset if people were talking about you behind your back, if a little birdie comes just to cause trouble, if anything from your moral integrity to your sanity to even your gender or humanity is being questioned... You might have a decent ground to be a little bit upset about this.
That's if you actually care about what other people have to say about you. If you realized that their opinions of you aren't really relevant to you or your life, unless they're your boss or something, then anything you feel as the result of buying into their discussion is your own insecurity and paranoia on something that does not affect your life in any meaningful way. You can be mad, but investing any time aside from making a note that you don't like being picked on is a WASTE of your time, effort and life.
If someone says I'm insane, I can choose to do one of two things:
1- Brush it off or ask them to stop and brush it off, go on with my life and not care
2- Go completely nuts on the person, post blogs and forum posts about the person or persons throughout the internet and generally attract attention to myself and my own insecurities as a person
One of these responses is a sane and mature manner of handling bullying. The other is not. I will leave which is which for you to decide.
@Kijin: it doesn't matter if it's automatically slander or not.
Really? Because that's the point Soron brought up. There's a big difference between saying, "Someone was talking behind my back," and, "Someone was slandering me." One is something that shouldn't matter outside of the grade school play yard, the latter is a tort and worthy of legal action.
This statement is wrong. Its part of this site, just like any other. I do not know what more I can say. Its on the same page, and server.
4chan is hosted on the same servers as sites that are not 4chan. The Gutter is not on the same page as MTGS unless you sign up to see the gutter on the same page as MTGS. I'm not saying your logic is completely incorrect here, but the examples you use to defend them are.
Slander
1.defamation; calumny
I was using the English definition of the word. To avoid any further confusion, let me just say that when I use English words, I mean the English meaning, not the legal meaning, unless I stated other wise.
No you weren't. You were using a vernacular definition of the word. The word is a legal term in American English which means a Spoken statement that is both false and defamatory about a person. This is the primary definition in reputable, educated sources. Anything else is secondary and extraneous ie incorrect. The law is different in other countries.
edit: even the definition of Defamation implies a false statement that is injurious and if defamation is what you meant, why didn't you just say "defamation" instead of using the wrong word, which carries actual legal implications and consequences?
For whatever reason, I'm still drawing this line from the gutter, AoK, Annorax, YuanTi, and MikeyG's (that's 4 people who could ban her, and indeed the person who banned her was included) hatred of Sakura
Hatred?
That's some libel right there.
Just because members talked about Sakura in the gutter, where they are free and able to, they also talk about everyone else. Every hear about equal opportunity?
At any rate, Sakura trolled, and earned her suspension. Staff doesn't spout sunshine and bunnies about people who troll their way to multiple suspensions, sorry. We also do not let feelings cloud our decisions when it comes to banning and suspending members. This is why we have so many people in charge...to keep everyone's decisions in check.
At any rate, the gutter is not part of MTGS. The gutter does not exist, and what happens in the gutter stays in the gutter, you do not talk about the gutter, because it doesn't exist.
I don't see the difference between me yelling at my computer screen and posting on the gutter. Can someone explain that to me, because I see them as one and the same. Its the internet equivalent of couch coaching, 'ure doing it wrong', etc.
At any rate, the gutter will live on. Those who are gutter banned will either accept it, or have a vendetta against the gutter as such.
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1: The Gutter is a place for users to vent their frustrations without the fear of being infracted and is therefore a useful feature of MTGS.
2: The Gutter is a place where trouble gets brewed up and spills out onto the rest of the forums.
What do you all think?
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Saph: A thread needs to be created, just on this subject (much like the 'strict moderation' thread) simply so people can see that the argument is rehashed. Leave it somewhere near the top. Let people argue it to death. Then just point and say 'RTFT'. We didn't truly have a catch-all strict moderation thread, we don't have a catch-all gutter thread. Finish it off, close it, point to it.
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3: Users who post material from the gutter outside the gutter or otherwise spread trouble started in the gutter are infracted, regardless, and punished like any other user would.
If you're not a member of the gutter, don't worry about it. If you are or were, don't take your stuff outside of the gutter. If an issue comes up for discussion inside of the gutter about threads outside of the gutter, remember that you're not in the gutter when you're in the gutter when you're in that thread.
Clean and cut. I don't think there needs to be more discussion on this issue.
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So, if people talk behind your back at work, and slander you, you just don't worry about it?
Its kinda hard not to worry when you have people PM'ing you periodically with "You know what they said about you NOW?"
1. Slander is spoken. Libel is written. Slander and libel must also be proven to be untrue, which is one of the core principles of either tort. Throwing the word around cheapens its meaning to the point where anything that makes you butthurt is slander or libel, which is not true.
2. People "talk behind eachother's backs" IRL. People do it on the public forums. People do it on one another's myspaces. It's part of people interacting. Sucks that it happens, but it does. I think people talking about one another on a web forum is pretty low on the "things that are actually important in real life" chart, somewhere between "am I eating too much garlic?" and "do I have enough clean socks to get through the work week?"
It actually isn't hard to worry about if you just ignore the PM or realize you have better things to do with your time than be concerned with what a group of anonymous people on the internet think about you and the way you present yourself on a Magical Card Game Forum.
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Um... yeah, kinda.
I'm sure there are people at work that don't like me, and there are people at work I don't like. As long as we each treat each other with respect face-to-face, it doesn't really matter what out personal feeling towards each other are.
And people, remember, this isn't your work, or your circle of friends; it's an internet forum about a card game. You popularity and reputation here have absolutely no bearing on real life. So what if a small group of people on the internet don't like you?
EDIT: Semi Sarnath'd
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slander
By that logic you should not worry about what people think about the said sub forum, and would not be posting here. Since you would not care about what a "group of anonymous people" thinks about it. Indeed, it only effects me here, on the internet, so this is the only place I talk about it.
The Gutter is a place full of crude jokes/insults, thats it. nothing else, but, its absolutely hilarious.
the one "problem", if you will I had with The Gutter, was the amont of Racial slurs I heard. but, all in all, theyre just words, so ignore them, or, do as I do, and laugh at the most ignorant and un-original insults of all time.
That, my friend, is the Gutter.
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personally, i dont think its that bad, but thats just me.
you must remember that people will always talk, always. If you let yourself get pissed at what a bunch of random ppl on the interent say, then you cant live life normally.
IF the buisness in the Gutter gets out to the Main forums, it should be up to the mods to decide what to do. imo of course
So, in my case its also more than 'talk.' So we are still on equal footing, logically.
Soron: Two completely different things. A post saying he can't understand you is simply a jab. You can ignore jabs. A jab does nothing to you unless you -let- it do something to you.
However, a discussion to break down the gutter -will- do something either way. Either it keeps going, or it doesn't. That's something that adds to an action.
Example: Me saying that the President of the United States (whoever they may be at the time, this isn't a Bush comment) is a bad leader is a Jab. They can roll with it, it doesn't matter. Me saying that the President of the United States' job is jeopardizing this country and that he needs to be impeached is something that's leading to an action. The former he can ignore, it's an opinion. The latter calls for action, he needs to respond.
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By the same token Kijin could just not care if people like the gutter, or if the gutter goes bye bye. He could choose not to care, and I am forced to ignore jabs. (or get warning/infractions)
The mod's like it, so it will stay. THAT logic is irrefutable.
If it is a select user or users, they should be dealt with the same way every other user who steps out of line on the forums does: they get infracted, repremanded, or otherwise punished for their actions. This is what happens in every other case on the forums and despite the "gutter" being different, the situation is going on the forums proper and shouldn't be handled differently just because the user posts in the gutter. You wouldn't treat a user differently because, for example, he posts on 4chan and comes to MTGS and breaks rules, would you? You probably wouldn't even know he posts there unless he outright said he did or pressed him for the information. The only difference is that the gutter is accesed through MTGS.
slan·der (slān'dər) Pronunciation Key
n.
That's not a logical comparison. The topic of this thread is whether the gutter is damaging to the forums, based on the fact that people can talk smack. It's an issue and point of discussion, not a "let's make fun of the gutter" thread. Either that or you're missing the point of my discussion in this thread and possibly the point of the thread itself.
What affect does it have? Does it disable your keyboard and delete your MTGS account? Does it edit pictures of homosexual pornography into your posts? Do the PMs delete other emails in your email box that come from your boss? Do they block your access to other websites? If all they do is appear in your PM box and nothing more, that is no palpable effect on your internet usage. If it has no actual effect on you, in your daily going ons or use of the internet, doing anything other than ignoring it is trolling yourself.
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You need to read the OP again. This is for discuss about the gutter, not necessary about its removal.
The same my posts have on you. Which my guess would be "little to none." Umm... reports can be written, sir. Its not what you said, you only gave the legal bit.
Also, you missed the first bit about ANY 'defaming' being slander.
The gutter isn't part of MTGS. That's the difference. It's an offshoot. If you log on to MTGS, you cannot access the gutter unless you are signed up to be a member of the gutter. Literal or otherwise, it's not meant to be part of the MTGS experience.
One issue brought up is one use of the gutter, the other is one that conflicts with the site. Implication.
in case you missed that
Legally, anything defaming isn't slander. Someone making you butthurt isn't against the law. The definition saying slander isn't spoken makes the word Libel extraneous. It is also not correct. Citing "dictionary.com" is akin to citing wikipedia instead of a real source. The real sources, like merriam webster and american heritage dictionary, support my point of view and are generally accepted by the educated world over "what dictionary.com's content says."
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Also, the points that soron are making, that there's such things going on...
Well of course, you'd be upset if people were talking about you behind your back, if a little birdie comes just to cause trouble, if anything from your moral integrity to your sanity to even your gender or humanity is being questioned... You might have a decent ground to be a little bit upset about this.
@Kijin: it doesn't matter if it's automatically slander or not.
EDIT: To stop spilling over from the other thread:
For whatever reason, I'm still drawing this line from the gutter, AoK, Annorax, YuanTi, and MikeyG's (that's 4 people who could ban her, and indeed the person who banned her was included) hatred of Sakura, and her being banned because WiccanWitch said that she missed the Gaymers. If that counts as suspension evasion, why wasn't Hoduko banned when his girlfriend posted, (not exactly, but very close) "I just got off the phone with hoduko, he said you suspended him for a ****ing year?"
That seems just as bad as WiccanWitch saying that "Sakura says misses you guys, she can't see this thread."
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Just saying.
Slander
1.defamation; calumny
I was using the English definition of the word. To avoid any further confusion, let me just say that when I use English words, I mean the English meaning, not the legal meaning, unless I stated other wise.
And with that, I am off to bed.
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i resent that. i joined today, and got banned after 30 mins. I love the gutter, it was so funny my stomach hurts from laughing so much.
It is obvious that the gutter is starting to cause trouble outside its borders, and like i said before, now it becomes a mods issue
That's if you actually care about what other people have to say about you. If you realized that their opinions of you aren't really relevant to you or your life, unless they're your boss or something, then anything you feel as the result of buying into their discussion is your own insecurity and paranoia on something that does not affect your life in any meaningful way. You can be mad, but investing any time aside from making a note that you don't like being picked on is a WASTE of your time, effort and life.
If someone says I'm insane, I can choose to do one of two things:
1- Brush it off or ask them to stop and brush it off, go on with my life and not care
2- Go completely nuts on the person, post blogs and forum posts about the person or persons throughout the internet and generally attract attention to myself and my own insecurities as a person
One of these responses is a sane and mature manner of handling bullying. The other is not. I will leave which is which for you to decide.
Really? Because that's the point Soron brought up. There's a big difference between saying, "Someone was talking behind my back," and, "Someone was slandering me." One is something that shouldn't matter outside of the grade school play yard, the latter is a tort and worthy of legal action.
4chan is hosted on the same servers as sites that are not 4chan. The Gutter is not on the same page as MTGS unless you sign up to see the gutter on the same page as MTGS. I'm not saying your logic is completely incorrect here, but the examples you use to defend them are.
No you weren't. You were using a vernacular definition of the word. The word is a legal term in American English which means a Spoken statement that is both false and defamatory about a person. This is the primary definition in reputable, educated sources. Anything else is secondary and extraneous ie incorrect. The law is different in other countries.
edit: even the definition of Defamation implies a false statement that is injurious and if defamation is what you meant, why didn't you just say "defamation" instead of using the wrong word, which carries actual legal implications and consequences?
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Hatred?
That's some libel right there.
Just because members talked about Sakura in the gutter, where they are free and able to, they also talk about everyone else. Every hear about equal opportunity?
At any rate, Sakura trolled, and earned her suspension. Staff doesn't spout sunshine and bunnies about people who troll their way to multiple suspensions, sorry. We also do not let feelings cloud our decisions when it comes to banning and suspending members. This is why we have so many people in charge...to keep everyone's decisions in check.
At any rate, the gutter is not part of MTGS. The gutter does not exist, and what happens in the gutter stays in the gutter, you do not talk about the gutter, because it doesn't exist.
I don't see the difference between me yelling at my computer screen and posting on the gutter. Can someone explain that to me, because I see them as one and the same. Its the internet equivalent of couch coaching, 'ure doing it wrong', etc.
At any rate, the gutter will live on. Those who are gutter banned will either accept it, or have a vendetta against the gutter as such.
Hugboxes for some, lulz for some, srs bsns for the rest.
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