Have a look on eBay - two went today at £25, one at £23 (that's $40 and $37 respectively). $40 isn't necessarily *too* unrealistic a price...
Like Medina said, if you want to sell me some FOW's for $40, i'll buy any amount.
Anyone can come in here and scream they feel FOW is worth less than it is, but how many people are actually unloading them on here for that much? I'm sure there's a different tune when you're the seller. I'd try to get at least $50-55 for any FOWs if i was selling them. Therefore I value the card that highly in trades or if i were to buy some at retail level.
Well, there were some for 40 when I was browsing through people's lists aimlessly, I'd say a good two weeks ago. Mind you, I haven't looked since then and I've seen them rise a bit. My bad.
Point being, I'd like to see this as a DCI Foil
-Matt
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Well, there were some for 40 when I was browsing through people's lists aimlessly, I'd say a good two weeks ago. Mind you, I haven't looked since then and I've seen them rise a bit. My bad.
Point being, I'd like to see this as a DCI Foil
-Matt
DCI Foil would be cool, and I imagine we will see a Judge foil or the like eventually if nothing else.
That said, given how quickly prices can climb on cards these days (literally overnight), in the future I would reccomend looking at current (within the last 24 hours) information before posting like you did initially about forces being $40. I know you didnt mean anything bad by it, and were just going off of your most recent knowledge of card values, but to better improve the quality and accuracy of the discussion, its a good idea to check before posting, just in case something like this does come up to where the card has risen even more since you may have last checked.
Wasteland has being printed as a judge foil and that didn't change in any way its value.
So to me FOW will always rise, unless is reprinted in a Duel Deck style of deck (mass printed). And since they hardly would put such a staple in Duel Decks (remember they don't want these products to be hoarded, and 1xFow would mean everybody will want 4x deck), the only chance would be a PDS: Counterspell like for Chain and Lightning. Don't know if it's too soon for that.
Look for registered trademarks during the summer, and when the next PDS is trademarked you'll know if FOW is a valuable investment for at least a year.
I literally said that in my quote.
The next product fow could be in is the edh decks, otherwise I can see the blue version of fire and lightning having it.
Wizards will have to print the uncommon staples to legacy at some point either way if the format is to be accessible. Fow, waste, and more narrow out of print staples like karakas, and imperial recruiter put unnecessary strain on the format. They aren't on the reserve list but they are increasing the bar to play legacy to the point that they are in many ways worse than duals. At least with duals you have options to replace them at near functional levels, there is nothing truly comparable to fow or wasteland in the format.
Lol Medina is on MTGS now?
Q for mods (about the buying) - can I say stuff like that? B/c I've wanted to say that for a long time ^^
It looks like he came back to defend another set of Jealous Johns who dumped on him for his unethical trading techniques.
And I'm glad I at least hung onto 2 playsets of FoW rather than selling them all off when I had the chance. And as crazy as it sounds, I think this is just the beginning of the rise. $100 for a FoW doesn't even sound that crazy.
Ben Bleiweiss prediction #9 seems too much like a foresight and I'm getting a funny feeling that there is going to be an increased value of Force of Will within the next 3-6 months.
Personally, I believe this is a collectors game and if a card is placed upon the Reprint Policy then Wizards reserve the right to keep that policy. Although if a card isnt placed upon the reprint policy and there is a growing demand for such and such card then wizards has the responsibilty to reprint the said card.
I strongly believe if wizards dont reprint Force of Will by this winter (simular to Chain Lightning) then we are looking at 100+ Force of Will in 2012 and I guarantee cardshop owners/card collectors will start *****ing on any possiblity of reprinting Force of Will then because the reprinting would decrease the value of the original card.
Force of Will is the barrier to entry for Legacy. I wanted to get into Legacy so badly, but could never see myself shelling out the money for it. I kicked myself for not buying them at 15 online when I had the chance. But time passed, and the New Year came and I made myself a resolution that I'd buy one a month until I had a playset. Then, I came into some money and I was able to buy a playset in under two months.
Do I think they will reprint it online? Yes, most definitely. They have demonstrated time and time again that they are willing to reprint things online that they are unwilling to do in paper. Do I think they will reprint it in paper? That's the million dollar question. Legacy is garnering a lot of attention recently, especially with the playable opens that occur once every two weeks. It's not on the reprint policy so it's fair game. But I think the timing will have to be right. I agree, the more time that passes, the less likely they are to reprint it. But, this is a collectible card game. All they have to do is print it with less than stellar art and the "classic" Force of Wills will maintain their performance. Remember, data shows that reprinting a card does not decrease the price of the old versions. That was their "assumption" for many years until they started reprinting some of the rarer cards. In fact, whenever they reprint a card it seems to boost the sales of the older cards. I know this data has never been done for some of the more chase cards, but I think the trend would continue even with Force of Will.
However, I remain skeptical. I honestly don't think we will see a Force of Will reprint in 2011 or 2012. I think the price will increase. I think traders will demand that it not be reprinted. And I think Wizards will coalesce and not reprint it in paper.
I hate to say it, but mr. Bleiweiss is right in his prediction. Legacy seems to be on a constant rise in popularity, and Vintage is on life support. People that want to play Legacy need a playset of FoW's or else they won't be able to play Blue. The demand is going to go higher, so its price will increase.
I'm scared to see how high Wasteland is going to go for in a year.
These people sadly need to take a lesson from companies like Zynga (Never thought I'd hear myself saying that ... ) and realise that 100,000 sales at 10$ is better than 5,000 sales at 100$
Supply and demand, basic economics, etc.
Legacy staples have a limited (and decreasing) supply. Zynga games have practically infinite supply.
Ugh, what drives me nuts is that I've been playing since Revised and when they were standard, totally had like 4-8 Force of Wills at a time, since they were uncommon and people only put them at a few bucks at the time. Same with wastelands and any of that other cool uncommon/cheap rare stuff that was like 3-4 bucks when it was standard.
Secondary market prices of singles aren't a real big concern for WotC im thinking.
The problem is, Wizards is owned by Hasbro, which is a giant toy company. Hasbro will tell Wizards what/what not to do in the best interests of its company, and stock holders. Hence the reason there is likely a reprint policy.
I would love to play Legacy, but b/c the cost of staple cards to play competitively is quite high, and therefore the popularity in local stores very low, you have to play in large events around the country which will cost money to travel to.
First you dont actually need to play Force of Will to enter Legacy.
I do agree most of what your saying...
And typically a reprint shouldnt decrease the value of the card although Wizards has gone thru the "dark ages of magic" before Ice Age and Alliances. This is blotched up printing (under print/over prints) that actually pushed/decrease the vale of the cards. For example: Mana Drain is a (u1) which means they were printed once on an uncommon sheet, and legends had blotched packagaing A & B where one set wouldnt have any Mana Drains. This is why Carrion Ants were 20 dollars at onetime, then wizards reprinted them, price drop because the card play value is limited and card shop owners *****ed and we got the infamous reprint policy.
I believe the current value for Force of Will is over inflated based upon the demand of the card and the apparent knowledge that there isnt any reprints, and I like to believe this whole "US Recession" thing is a factor (maybe because I'm seeing the price of the older cards increasing in value since 2008, even power cards [and the format is seen as dead]) I'm guessing card shops need to survive.
I'm not saying we have an endless supply of Force of Will but we do have more then enough currently, Ben Bleiweiss believes there at least 125,000 playsets if every pack was open and every force of will not destroyed... even though it might be true... lets assume half to be realistic... 75,000 playsets. Is there actually 75,000 people playing Legacy?... Maybe this is what the marking department in wizards believes there are more then enough to go around...
But I serously believe Wizards needs to reprint force of will this year, since the package would make it affordable for new players. Or if they dont, then they better put the card on the reprint policy.
As for wastelands... (I also believe its another card that is over inflated) as well as ports and sliverqueen.
First you dont actually need to play Force of Will to enter Legacy.
I do agree most of what your saying...
And typically a reprint shouldnt decrease the value of the card although Wizards has gone thru the "dark ages of magic" before Ice Age and Alliances. This is blotched up printing (under print/over prints) that actually pushed/decrease the vale of the cards. For example: Mana Drain is a (u1) which means they were printed once on an uncommon sheet, and legends had blotched packagaing A & B where one set wouldnt have any Mana Drains. This is why Carrion Ants were 20 dollars at onetime, then wizards reprinted them, price drop because the card play value is limited and card shop owners *****ed and we got the infamous reprint policy.
I believe the current value for Force of Will is over inflated based upon the demand of the card and the apparent knowledge that there isnt any reprints, and I like to believe this whole "US Recession" thing is a factor (maybe because I'm seeing the price of the older cards increasing in value since 2008, even power cards [and the format is seen as dead]) I'm guessing card shops need to survive.
I'm not saying we have an endless supply of Force of Will but we do have more then enough currently, Ben Bleiweiss believes there at least 125,000 playsets if every pack was open and every force of will not destroyed... even though it might be true... lets assume half to be realistic... 75,000 playsets. Is there actually 75,000 people playing Legacy?... Maybe this is what the marking department in wizards believes there are more then enough to go around...
But I serously believe Wizards needs to reprint force of will this year, since the package would make it affordable for new players. Or if they dont, then they better put the card on the reprint policy.
As for wastelands... (I also believe its another card that is over inflated) as well as ports and sliverqueen.
Ya, especially since when I started they were $10 :S
funny i remember that price tag as well.
------------------------
question should i turn my moxes into force of wills? as an investment strategy?
--------------------------
if force of wills go up past mana drain will we never see mana drains allowance in legacy?
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I guess I should probably pick up another playset just to have, eh?
So, If I could pick them up on Ebay at about 50, would that be better?
-Matt
$50 would appear to be a decent price to pick them up at, at the moment, less if you manage to catch a good auction or random cheap buy it now, but honestly anything $50 or less for decently conditioned copies sounds good.
Magic for the elite. Obviously reprints are needed since eternal formats are recruiting more and more players world-wide.
Because of the increase in price to play competitive standard, people are now moving towards Legacy because it is (was) close to the same price range for a short while. Besides, Legacy is obviously more interesting because of the longer "life-span" of usable cards.
Another influence on magic card prices are the implementation of Mythic rares which resulted in what was my first point, higher price to compete in standard constructed. And because of the lack of interest in Vintage and the no-reprint policy, Vintage simply vaporized slowly but surely. And with all the former vintage players + the ones who were already interested in playing eternal format magic who either could not afford or did not see the vintage meta-game as any fun since the un-errata of Time Vault, moved their attention towards has been in the past been referred to as the "poor-man's vintage". aka Legacy, which is now blooming because of the new and increased interest in the format.
It's not the only barrier, as there are several tier 1 decks that do not run Force of Will, but still contain expensive cards, such as Zoo and Goblins.
Remember, data shows that reprinting a card does not decrease the price of the old versions.
Unfortunately, this is not true at all. Reprints DO decrease the price of cards. Chronicles, Fourth Edition, and Ice Age all proved this when the cards they reprinted dropped in value. That's the whole reason we have the reserved list in the first place. That's the whole reason people want Force reprinted. Reprints decrease value.
However, I remain skeptical. I honestly don't think we will see a Force of Will reprint in 2011 or 2012. I think the price will increase. I think traders will demand that it not be reprinted. And I think Wizards will coalesce and not reprint it in paper.
Force is an important part of Legacy, but it is not the only key card in the format. If Wizards were to reprint it, what do you think would happen to other cards in the format? My guess is that Force would decrease in value, but other cards - especially dual lands - would go up. Imagine if WotC reprinted every staple they could: Wasteland, Force of Will, Tarmogoyf, etc. More people would play Legacy as a result. This would drive the prices up even more for the cards WotC promised they wouldn't reprint. In the end, it would probably be just as expensive to play as it is now, except the values would be even more concentrated in the duals.
question should i turn my moxes into force of wills? as an investment strategy?
That would only be wise if Force were on the reserved list, in my opinion. I think you could definitely make some money that way, but Ben also predicted Force gets a reprint this year.
if force of wills go up past mana drain will we never see mana drains allowance in legacy?
I think Mana Drain is probably banned for power level as much as for its price. Not only does it stop your opponent, but it also enables your own combo/win condition. I doubt it will come off the list any time soon.
It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see wasteland take the same path as force price wise if it isn't reprinted as well. Wasteland and FoW are 2 of the biggest legacy staples with tarmogoyf being among the biggest staples as well. Although there's probably more wastelands in circulation (this is speculation mind you) than force of will but not by a wide margin.
If FoW isn't reprinted this year I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see FoW at over $100 apiece next year. Legacy is a very fast growing format like Bleiwiss said with Europe caring a lot and Japan is catching onto the legacy train as well as America. It's just accelerating legacy's demise as a format since if wasteland goes up to $75 or something in 2012 and duals continue to increase people will lose interest since the cost to get into the format will be enormous. This is why that stupid reserved list should get abolished and they should do FTV: Legacy with all 10 duals, force, tarmogoyf, wasteland, moat, and the tabernacle at pendrell vale. Moat and tabernacle are just absurdly expensive right now and then the rest are some of the biggest legacy staples.
EDIT: @necrogenesis: reprinting a card makes the reprinted version cost less usually. See beta birds. Is that = in price to a BoP from M11? Hell no. Same with the elder dragons. The chronicles elder dragons are worth a quarter apiece while the legends versions cost $10 or more usually. If they reprinted force, the original would probably be worth more just like in the case with berserk and mox diamond when they got reprinted in FtV's the original was worth more than the reprint.
Unfortunately, this is not true at all. Reprints DO decrease the price of cards. Chronicles, Fourth Edition, and Ice Age all proved this when the cards they reprinted dropped in value. That's the whole reason we have the reserved list in the first place. That's the whole reason people want Force reprinted. Reprints decrease value.
Not if there is a corresponding increase in demand, which new found interest in a format can create.
Not that I think prices staying at this rate is good for the game anyway.
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Q for mods (about the buying) - can I say stuff like that? B/c I've wanted to say that for a long time ^^
I don't believe many of us actively look on ebay.uk
My Trade List (long dead)
My Sales List (long dead)
">Foil Japanese Death and Taxes! (In progress, needs <10 cards)
Like Medina said, if you want to sell me some FOW's for $40, i'll buy any amount.
Anyone can come in here and scream they feel FOW is worth less than it is, but how many people are actually unloading them on here for that much? I'm sure there's a different tune when you're the seller. I'd try to get at least $50-55 for any FOWs if i was selling them. Therefore I value the card that highly in trades or if i were to buy some at retail level.
Point being, I'd like to see this as a DCI Foil
-Matt
Legacy:
Thanks to SGT Chubbs for the sig
DCI Foil would be cool, and I imagine we will see a Judge foil or the like eventually if nothing else.
That said, given how quickly prices can climb on cards these days (literally overnight), in the future I would reccomend looking at current (within the last 24 hours) information before posting like you did initially about forces being $40. I know you didnt mean anything bad by it, and were just going off of your most recent knowledge of card values, but to better improve the quality and accuracy of the discussion, its a good idea to check before posting, just in case something like this does come up to where the card has risen even more since you may have last checked.
Thanks for your input anyway!
I literally said that in my quote.
The next product fow could be in is the edh decks, otherwise I can see the blue version of fire and lightning having it.
Wizards will have to print the uncommon staples to legacy at some point either way if the format is to be accessible. Fow, waste, and more narrow out of print staples like karakas, and imperial recruiter put unnecessary strain on the format. They aren't on the reserve list but they are increasing the bar to play legacy to the point that they are in many ways worse than duals. At least with duals you have options to replace them at near functional levels, there is nothing truly comparable to fow or wasteland in the format.
It looks like he came back to defend another set of Jealous Johns who dumped on him for his unethical trading techniques.
And I'm glad I at least hung onto 2 playsets of FoW rather than selling them all off when I had the chance. And as crazy as it sounds, I think this is just the beginning of the rise. $100 for a FoW doesn't even sound that crazy.
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/21257.html
Ben Bleiweiss prediction #9 seems too much like a foresight and I'm getting a funny feeling that there is going to be an increased value of Force of Will within the next 3-6 months.
Personally, I believe this is a collectors game and if a card is placed upon the Reprint Policy then Wizards reserve the right to keep that policy. Although if a card isnt placed upon the reprint policy and there is a growing demand for such and such card then wizards has the responsibilty to reprint the said card.
I strongly believe if wizards dont reprint Force of Will by this winter (simular to Chain Lightning) then we are looking at 100+ Force of Will in 2012 and I guarantee cardshop owners/card collectors will start *****ing on any possiblity of reprinting Force of Will then because the reprinting would decrease the value of the original card.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
Do I think they will reprint it online? Yes, most definitely. They have demonstrated time and time again that they are willing to reprint things online that they are unwilling to do in paper. Do I think they will reprint it in paper? That's the million dollar question. Legacy is garnering a lot of attention recently, especially with the playable opens that occur once every two weeks. It's not on the reprint policy so it's fair game. But I think the timing will have to be right. I agree, the more time that passes, the less likely they are to reprint it. But, this is a collectible card game. All they have to do is print it with less than stellar art and the "classic" Force of Wills will maintain their performance. Remember, data shows that reprinting a card does not decrease the price of the old versions. That was their "assumption" for many years until they started reprinting some of the rarer cards. In fact, whenever they reprint a card it seems to boost the sales of the older cards. I know this data has never been done for some of the more chase cards, but I think the trend would continue even with Force of Will.
However, I remain skeptical. I honestly don't think we will see a Force of Will reprint in 2011 or 2012. I think the price will increase. I think traders will demand that it not be reprinted. And I think Wizards will coalesce and not reprint it in paper.
I'm scared to see how high Wasteland is going to go for in a year.
Ya, especially since when I started they were $10 :S
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
When I quit playing Legacy, I'm gonna be raking in the money!
ゆっくりしていってね!!!
Supply and demand, basic economics, etc.
Legacy staples have a limited (and decreasing) supply. Zynga games have practically infinite supply.
ゆっくりしていってね!!!
The problem is, Wizards is owned by Hasbro, which is a giant toy company. Hasbro will tell Wizards what/what not to do in the best interests of its company, and stock holders. Hence the reason there is likely a reprint policy.
I would love to play Legacy, but b/c the cost of staple cards to play competitively is quite high, and therefore the popularity in local stores very low, you have to play in large events around the country which will cost money to travel to.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
So, If I could pick them up on Ebay at about 50, would that be better?
-Matt
Legacy:
Thanks to SGT Chubbs for the sig
First you dont actually need to play Force of Will to enter Legacy.
I do agree most of what your saying...
And typically a reprint shouldnt decrease the value of the card although Wizards has gone thru the "dark ages of magic" before Ice Age and Alliances. This is blotched up printing (under print/over prints) that actually pushed/decrease the vale of the cards. For example: Mana Drain is a (u1) which means they were printed once on an uncommon sheet, and legends had blotched packagaing A & B where one set wouldnt have any Mana Drains. This is why Carrion Ants were 20 dollars at onetime, then wizards reprinted them, price drop because the card play value is limited and card shop owners *****ed and we got the infamous reprint policy.
I believe the current value for Force of Will is over inflated based upon the demand of the card and the apparent knowledge that there isnt any reprints, and I like to believe this whole "US Recession" thing is a factor (maybe because I'm seeing the price of the older cards increasing in value since 2008, even power cards [and the format is seen as dead]) I'm guessing card shops need to survive.
I'm not saying we have an endless supply of Force of Will but we do have more then enough currently, Ben Bleiweiss believes there at least 125,000 playsets if every pack was open and every force of will not destroyed... even though it might be true... lets assume half to be realistic... 75,000 playsets. Is there actually 75,000 people playing Legacy?... Maybe this is what the marking department in wizards believes there are more then enough to go around...
But I serously believe Wizards needs to reprint force of will this year, since the package would make it affordable for new players. Or if they dont, then they better put the card on the reprint policy.
As for wastelands... (I also believe its another card that is over inflated) as well as ports and sliverqueen.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Sliverqueen is on the "no-no" list.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
funny i remember that price tag as well.
------------------------
question should i turn my moxes into force of wills? as an investment strategy?
--------------------------
if force of wills go up past mana drain will we never see mana drains allowance in legacy?
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
$50 would appear to be a decent price to pick them up at, at the moment, less if you manage to catch a good auction or random cheap buy it now, but honestly anything $50 or less for decently conditioned copies sounds good.
Because of the increase in price to play competitive standard, people are now moving towards Legacy because it is (was) close to the same price range for a short while. Besides, Legacy is obviously more interesting because of the longer "life-span" of usable cards.
Another influence on magic card prices are the implementation of Mythic rares which resulted in what was my first point, higher price to compete in standard constructed. And because of the lack of interest in Vintage and the no-reprint policy, Vintage simply vaporized slowly but surely. And with all the former vintage players + the ones who were already interested in playing eternal format magic who either could not afford or did not see the vintage meta-game as any fun since the un-errata of Time Vault, moved their attention towards has been in the past been referred to as the "poor-man's vintage". aka Legacy, which is now blooming because of the new and increased interest in the format.
It's not the only barrier, as there are several tier 1 decks that do not run Force of Will, but still contain expensive cards, such as Zoo and Goblins.
Unfortunately, this is not true at all. Reprints DO decrease the price of cards. Chronicles, Fourth Edition, and Ice Age all proved this when the cards they reprinted dropped in value. That's the whole reason we have the reserved list in the first place. That's the whole reason people want Force reprinted. Reprints decrease value.
Force is an important part of Legacy, but it is not the only key card in the format. If Wizards were to reprint it, what do you think would happen to other cards in the format? My guess is that Force would decrease in value, but other cards - especially dual lands - would go up. Imagine if WotC reprinted every staple they could: Wasteland, Force of Will, Tarmogoyf, etc. More people would play Legacy as a result. This would drive the prices up even more for the cards WotC promised they wouldn't reprint. In the end, it would probably be just as expensive to play as it is now, except the values would be even more concentrated in the duals.
That would only be wise if Force were on the reserved list, in my opinion. I think you could definitely make some money that way, but Ben also predicted Force gets a reprint this year.
I think Mana Drain is probably banned for power level as much as for its price. Not only does it stop your opponent, but it also enables your own combo/win condition. I doubt it will come off the list any time soon.
If FoW isn't reprinted this year I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see FoW at over $100 apiece next year. Legacy is a very fast growing format like Bleiwiss said with Europe caring a lot and Japan is catching onto the legacy train as well as America. It's just accelerating legacy's demise as a format since if wasteland goes up to $75 or something in 2012 and duals continue to increase people will lose interest since the cost to get into the format will be enormous. This is why that stupid reserved list should get abolished and they should do FTV: Legacy with all 10 duals, force, tarmogoyf, wasteland, moat, and the tabernacle at pendrell vale. Moat and tabernacle are just absurdly expensive right now and then the rest are some of the biggest legacy staples.
EDIT: @necrogenesis: reprinting a card makes the reprinted version cost less usually. See beta birds. Is that = in price to a BoP from M11? Hell no. Same with the elder dragons. The chronicles elder dragons are worth a quarter apiece while the legends versions cost $10 or more usually. If they reprinted force, the original would probably be worth more just like in the case with berserk and mox diamond when they got reprinted in FtV's the original was worth more than the reprint.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Not that I think prices staying at this rate is good for the game anyway.