I guess buyers should just hit up the forums, there were at least a dozen NM fow available <52 yesterday ^^. On using SCG as a trading guide...compared to MOTL/eBay prices, SCG has some cards skewed higher and some lower, so if you do some research I'm sure you can find a trade 'via scg prices' that works out great for one party but not for the other.
Again - just not seeing how we're outside the norms for the market with a $59.99 sell price, and a $40 buy price.
Buy it now values are set by the seller, similar to your store's values, where if a buyer wants to throw up a card at $X and see what sticks/if he gets a pull on his inflated line (RE: 8x $67.92 BIN sales), he can.
Values generated from an auction represent real values people are willing to pay for a card given the option to pay whatever they want until you have that last guy who pays that amount no one else is going to outshine. If you take note, that value is nearly $10 less than the BIN/Store "arbitrary value." if that doesn't say something to you, that's perfectly reasonable, but it shows that we're not talking about the same valuation system most people use when given a large sample size of a card (because we're not comparing 10 auctions for a random EDH foil but are comparing hundreds of auctions for a Legacy staple).
Buy it now values are set by the seller, similar to your store's values, where if a buyer wants to throw up a card at $X and see what sticks/if he gets a pull on his inflated line (RE: 8x $67.92 BIN sales), he can.
Values generated from an auction represent real values people are willing to pay for a card given the option to pay whatever they want until you have that last guy who pays that amount no one else is going to outshine. If you take note, that value is nearly $10 less than the BIN/Store "arbitrary value." if that doesn't say something to you, that's perfectly reasonable, but it shows that we're not talking about the same valuation system most people use when given a large sample size of a card (because we're not comparing 10 auctions for a random EDH foil but are comparing hundreds of auctions for a Legacy staple).
But his point still stands about having to wait for auctions. That's one of the reasons auctions are inherently cheaper: you may have to wait a week to see if you even win, and sometimes you get outbid at the last second and have to start all over again. There's a convenience charge that comes with BINs, and seeing as SCG price is barely higher than the average BIN price, I would hardly blame someone for picking the reliable vendor.
But his point still stands about having to wait for auctions. That's one of the reasons auctions are inherently cheaper: you may have to wait a week to see if you even win, and sometimes you get outbid at the last second and have to start all over again. There's a convenience charge that comes with BINs, and seeing as SCG price is barely higher than the average BIN price, I would hardly blame someone for picking the reliable vendor.
I don't see what that has to do with a $10 price -- 20% of auction value -- differential on what buyer demand in the market produces versus "service fee value" on BIN/vendors on Force of Will.
I'm not disputing that auctions are cheaper than BIN and store prices because that's not what we're talking about and also known information.
Ben you're presenting an average from online retailers. While this is fine for defending your store's prices, no one who can type "www.ebay.com" into their browser believes that Forces are worth $60.
There's a significant difference between ebay and online stores. The stores charge higher because you can go to them any hour of the day and buy your playset or whatever you need assuming it's in stock. On ebay you have to bid and wait a week to see if you win, or compete at the last minute. Also because ebay sellers may not have the same reputation as a store the prices will always be lower on goods than say a store.
Another thing worth noting about ebay. Power sellers and sellers with THOUSANDS of feedback and 100% ratings will more often get higher auction endings than a non power seller with 50-100 feedback for example. If you had 9000+ feedback, or 25000+ feedback etc 100% rating on ebay and sold force of will NM you might get closer to that $55-60 range. However if another guy lists force of will and has a feedback score of 43 he may barely manage to get $50 in an auction. There are LOTS of books about the ebay market and economy that can affect the price of any item, including magic cards.
Also if someone puts up a "FORSE OF WILL" (or really, any other typographical mistake in title) on ebay and it sells for $35-40, does that mean you'll trade me yours for $40 each? If so give me a PM, i'll gladly trade or pay cash for you $35 or $40 NM force of wills.
In the advent of the smartphone, numerous online price guides, and countless "don't let the sharks eat you" articles, I have no idea how you can make this statement. We're in a better and smarter age of trading. I can say I want $200 for my Goblin Guide until my face is blue, that doesn't make the card's value so.
So why can't a few dozen people say Force of will is worth $60 rather than $50? It's very logical, and as someone who does not even own the card I would gladly value your NM force of wills in the $55-60 range. These prices aren't just magically decided by some demon crawling through the tubes of the internet. To determine "value" in a card you need to analyze ebay, what stores are selling it for, and what stores are buying it for.
We also forget most traders based their trade value not on ebay aggregate prices, but a lot of times through online shops. I've run into trying to use ebay to value cards.
"I value your Jace TMS at $80-85 since that's how much they're selling for on ebay"
"But it's low is $95 on tcgplayer"
Happens all the time. More often than not unless a price spike occurs it will be the same on both sides of the field whether you use ebay prices or store prices. Ebay just has more chances of mean values not adding up the same due to variables.
Stores price on what they can sell them for. SCG and CFB can sell higher on some cards because they have the audience who is willing to pay extra to order from them. Stores are popping up every day, so how do you know which ones with low prices are reliable or trustworthy. Also with older cards, many of the larger stores have enough copies for your playset while the low priced store may only have one or two in stock.
I just really want to say that I personally think it is amazing that Ben takes the time to come on here and present a well-thought-out and politely worded argument defending his place of business. That kind of customer service does give them a right to make a profit on the cards they sell.
My take on the discussion of FoW: It will probably continue to rise in value as time goes on, and it will occasionally have spikes and valleys in its value like what you are seeing right now. All this said assuming an otherwise stable future MTG economy.
In summation.....Star Trek wins a prolonged naval battle against superior, yet less technologically advanced, numbers, with Picard leading the assault, while Kirk takes your soul by laying out Solo and probably his manservant Chewy as well, before impregnating and ditching your Princess.
Like Jeff, I consider the card's value to be on the lower to average end of completed BIN's a lot more than I would the auction value. Auction value on thin market cards is basically "I need to move this now, no matter what the price" and its often barely above store buy/trade value. Only the highest demand cards have a narrow spread between BIN and auction value.
For reference I saw 2 SP Time Warp selling with 30 sec left for $3.00 out the door. If I had not bid on them, they would have sold at that level. That doesn't mean the cards aren't worth $3 each.
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Like Jeff, I consider the card's value to be on the lower to average end of completed BIN's a lot more than I would the auction value. Auction value on thin market cards is basically "I need to move this now, no matter what the price" and its often barely above store buy/trade value. Only the highest demand cards have a narrow spread between BIN and auction value.
This is false logic because it doesn't take into consideration of the demand factor. If you really want to move something, just listed an item as BIN for like 20-30% off from the average BIN and you're bound to get a hit.
If anything, for cards that have limited quantities (like Beta/Alpha duals), sometimes those prices go crazy because of a bidding war between 2 or more collectors. Bidding war doesn't happen a lot on normal items since there are always more of it.
To make it simple, I look at completed listings first, just in general, whether auction or buy it now. If I see the vast majority of the completed listings that actually sold, having sold at about $50 each, with a couple above, and a couple below, then Ill likely value the card at about $50. However I will also check to see what the lowest buy it now prices on ebay are as well. If the lowest buy it now price on ebay was around $50 each, then I would then feel even more confident of that price. If the lowest buy it now was at $60 each, then I might consider trying a playset at say, $220, instead of $200, to see if it might sell (especially if the couple that did sell above that $50 average, were around that range.) If I needed the money quickly though, I would list them at $199.99 for a playset and likely watch them go quickly.
Often enough, especially for lower demand cards, the prices can be all over the place with completed listings. In these instances I check to see what the lowest buy it nows are, as well as the lowest online store prices from places like magiccards.info and findmagiccards for NM/unplayed condition to come up with the best price I can for it.
So, once again my order of importance would be ebay completed listings, lowest end of ebay buy it nows, and then online store prices. Im also biased in some regard to ebay, because I use ebay to sell my cards, thus I dont want to value them much higher at all than what I would be able to sell them there, due in part to my trade/buy policies.
Running a business where one is trying to keep everything in stock for your customers, at some point you are going to run out, and will have to buy from other sellers eithor on ebay, from other online stores, or through a buy list like what many online stores have. If there is a card that is particularly popular and I am selling through it faster than I can normally keep up, then I have no qualms with raising the price (example being stuff like zen fetches) a little bit, in order to make sure that I can safely and quickly restock from a place like ebay or other online stores (if people dont trade them into the shop) so that I can make sure not to run out. Not only does the slightly higher price sometimes help to stem the tide of sales at least a little bit (since Im usually still cheaper than any other shop in the area), but it gives me that margin buffer so that Im not effectively selling the cards for what Im paying for them (ie: ending up losing money). So honestly, if a store like starcity is offering 4/5ths trade value ($50) or 2/3rds cash ($40) and selling them for $60 compared to the $50 on ebay or $55+ on other online store prices, then I consider that 100% fine, and simply the price they feel is fair to charge for the card, given that they probably do 10x the business of most of the other online stores you see listed on those sites, or what those ebay sellers probably due in sales. Having to pay a little more to be able to get everything from one seller and knowing its from a place with a good rep and everything else sometimes is worth the extra cost. And hey, you know what? If they price it at $60, and they dont sell, I bet they will lower the price down a little at some point so they will start selling again (though honestly, I think they will have little to no issue selling them at $60). Ill leave it at that for now.
Forces aren't 60, they're 40 for nice ones. I don't think they'll go down, even if/when they print a Judge Foil.
Bidding Wars can't be used to calculate average prices, and neither can BIN's. You should be using median prices instead of average prices, people. It's just simple statistics. Having had bidding wars several times on Ebay for Beta duals, I know it happens. There are multiple people looking/wanting the same card, and sometimes you have to have that copy. Sometimes I've gone $40 over what I wanted to pay because I wanted THAT copy, since I either need it for a set and it's nice, or I just want a NM copy. Sometimes, the other person wants it more, but you have to think about the *usual* price.
-Matt
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Forces aren't 60, they're 40 for nice ones. I don't think they'll go down, even if/when they print a Judge Foil.
Bidding Wars can't be used to calculate average prices, and neither can BIN's. You should be using median prices instead of average prices, people. It's just simple statistics. Having had bidding wars several times on Ebay for Beta duals, I know it happens. There are multiple people looking/wanting the same card, and sometimes you have to have that copy. Sometimes I've gone $40 over what I wanted to pay because I wanted THAT copy, since I either need it for a set and it's nice, or I just want a NM copy. Sometimes, the other person wants it more, but you have to think about the *usual* price.
-Matt
Uhh, where do you see force of wills for $40 these days? Honestly I would like to know (I could use a restock) :).
Checking ebay, I see 2 buy it nows for individual copies of force of will that are in EX/VG condition at $45 each, a single one in NM condition (with a little edge wear) for $50, and then from there it goes up to $55 in NM condition (the first available playset from one source, the lowest playset available is $220 incidently as well as listed.)
Looking at completed listings the following are the most recent buy-it-nows that sold:
($40 VG/EX), ($46 LP), ($41 didnt sell, GD), ($50 didnt sell, EX), ($44 didnt sell, EX-), ($50 NM), ($56 didnt sell NM), ($184 (4x) EX/NM), ($54 nm/m), ($62 didnt sell NM), ($140 (3x) VF), ($40 played), ($50 NM/M), ($42 VG), ($54 didnt sell/ended early MP), ($45 w/high ship LP).
Looking at completed listings for auctions we get the following:
($93 w/ship (2x) Mint (listing was bought immediately), ($49 NM), ($51 NM), ($247 (4x) 2xVG, 2xNM), ($163 (4x) LP), ($208 (4x) NM), ($40 Mint (listing was bought immediately)), ($42 NM), ($194 (4x) Played), ($44 g/nm), ($45 mint)
This is all of the information for Force of Wills over the last 48 hours. Looking at all this, it would seem to show that $50 would seem to be where it should be priced for a NM or so copy of the card, whether using auctions or buy it nows.
Um so can somebody just tell me bottom line. Is Force of Will gonna go down? I'd prefer it if it were 50 dollars.
Barring some mass reprint of some kind to help add a significant amount to the supply, no, no it wont. At the moment its still possible to find some between $45-$55 on ebay and at some online stores. That said, its a card that is likely to steadily rise over time so long as the legacy format remains popular. I suspect that NM copies of the card will continue to sell for around $50 for the forceeable future.
Um so can somebody just tell me bottom line. Is Force of Will gonna go down? I'd prefer it if it were 50 dollars.
If you want to get them for $50, it doesn't seem like there's any major issue in getting them for that price.
Your problem is that because, for whatever reason, you can't get paypal, your potential pool of traders is micro, and you all value cards on a scale that is more likely to scale past the value of the card you could find based on competition among lowest offers.
Cards that have eternal use in a popular format are going to remain high value for as long as that format is popular and still will be unlikely to lose value because there is no harm in keeping that elevated price because it's not like that card will ever be unplayable, barring a banning.
I've seen Forces on MOTL at around 40 as of not too long ago.
-Matt
The question then becomes, are they NM, and are there any still up right now at that price? Force of Will was a solid $40 a few months ago, but has been rising lately, along with other popular legacy staples and EDH staples. And heck, if you can find NM ones right now for $40, you should buy all of them and then resell them and make some profit :).
You need to realize that this isn't a forum made up of some random locals in your town and, rather, a vast, open, and easily searchable internet with a number of different pricing resources that counter-reference a price that is noticeably hyperinflated if you act like you don't have blinders on your eyes long enough to read alternate mechanisms of pricing. SCG's values do not reflect the real value the card is commanding in an economy driven entirely by supply and demand (eBay). In fact, SCG has recently decided they're going to start jacking up specific staple's prices arbitrarily and seeing if any of it sticks.
In case you think I'm just making ☺☺☺☺ up and Force of Will isn't a real enough example for you, check out that real value on Zen fetches. $15 Verdant Catacombs are not even realistic -- there are approximately infinity vendors selling at a bare minimum of $1 less than that, and that's just through a site like TCGplayer. ChannelFireball, which usually prices relative to SCG, is a whole $3 cheaper. They have 20 in stock.
Or how about those $50 Wastelands!?
people i our country base of SCG for all staples then maybe minus $1-$5 of that depending on playability, it kinda sucks since I want to tell them are you a intl seller like SCG which pay taxes and salary? Your just some schmo who open packs or got them from other players.
This thread is full of idiots... Lightning Bolt is NOT being reprinted.
Many times has a writer in Wizards said so, because of the plain and simple fact that it's too powerful for what it costs. x/3 creatures shouldn't be able to die at instant speed for one mana without a signifigant drawback. (like PTE giving you a land)
I absolutely guarantee that LB will not be printed in M10, and you can quote me on that.
I've seen Forces on MOTL at around 40 as of not too long ago.
-Matt
How long ago is "not too long ago"? There definitely is no one now on MOTL selling them for $40. There are certainly people trying to buy them for $40, but who knows how that's going for them.
The price of these seems to be on a slow rise, I bought the 4x playset for $184 on ebay, and I thought that was a pretty good deal. I looked at completed listings, and it seemed like it was getting harder and harder to find a playset for less than $200. It seems like all the legacy staples are on the rise, I just payed $30 for my fourth Wasteland, when a couple months ago I paid $70 combined for my first three.
The whole issue of stores charging more seems like a moot point. Yes, you can get things cheaper on ebay. It's no different than anything else, at all, anywhere. You can get nearly anything in life for cheaper than "full retail" if you put in the time and effort to find it, and ebay takes time and effort. If you have more free time than you do free money, than you can get better deals spending the time to find them. Extra money is easier to come by for me, extra time isn't, so I don't mind paying a few bucks for convenience if I buy from an established store.
The price of these seems to be on a slow rise, I bought the 4x playset for $184 on ebay, and I thought that was a pretty good deal. I looked at completed listings, and it seemed like it was getting harder and harder to find a playset for less than $200. It seems like all the legacy staples are on the rise, I just payed $30 for my fourth Wasteland, when a couple months ago I paid $70 combined for my first three.
The whole issue of stores charging more seems like a moot point. Yes, you can get things cheaper on ebay. It's no different than anything else, at all, anywhere. You can get nearly anything in life for cheaper than "full retail" if you put in the time and effort to find it, and ebay takes time and effort. If you have more free time than you do free money, than you can get better deals spending the time to find them. Extra money is easier to come by for me, extra time isn't, so I don't mind paying a few bucks for convenience if I buy from an established store.
These are some good points. I just wanted to add a few thoughts: first, playsets are what people want and need for playing blue in Legacy or Vintage, therefore buying one at a time is a pain but is sometimes the only way you can get your x 4; second, FoW is one of the most popular Vintage and Legacy blue staples of all time, and it's necessary if you want to play competitively in either format; third, legacy season will pump the price short term and that may account for the peaks and valleys in prices in general for Legacy/Vintage staples, but the long term trend is for greater interest and more new players in Legacy each year. Vintage? I am not sure about if this is growing at the same rate.
As more people get burned out buying expensive Mythics to play competitively in Standard only to see their collection drop in value every year they start to gravitate toward Legacy because of the relative price stability. FoW prices will correct at some point, but the long-term trend is for the price only to continue to rise. If you can wait until Legacy season dies down, then buy then; however, you never know when low supply and high demand will sustain high prices.
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On the original topic of this thread - it seems that the general consensus is that this rise, regardless of the reasons for it, is not likely to be a short-term spike followed by a sharp fall again?
I don't feel safe saying this is a temp spike, fow has steadily rised since its extended rotation as legacy became popular. It pretty much is going to have to be reprinted to reduce its value at this point.
Wasteland to, it has 3 printings of tempest, judge foil, and mpr and its still going strong.
These will have to be reprinted in a set, duel deck, or other wizard's product to put a substantial dent in their value.
I don't see FOW being in a foil Premium Deck sort of thing as 1x, due to the extremely high cost it has right now. But the process can be gradual. First print it as Judge foil, then in a FtV series, and at last in all-foil decks. It can help increase the supply without wrecking the secondhand market.
Forces aren't 60, they're 40 for nice ones. I don't think they'll go down, even if/when they print a Judge Foil.
Bidding Wars can't be used to calculate average prices, and neither can BIN's. You should be using median prices instead of average prices, people. It's just simple statistics. Having had bidding wars several times on Ebay for Beta duals, I know it happens. There are multiple people looking/wanting the same card, and sometimes you have to have that copy. Sometimes I've gone $40 over what I wanted to pay because I wanted THAT copy, since I either need it for a set and it's nice, or I just want a NM copy. Sometimes, the other person wants it more, but you have to think about the *usual* price.
-Matt
How many are you selling for $40? Ill buy them all.
Buy it now values are set by the seller, similar to your store's values, where if a buyer wants to throw up a card at $X and see what sticks/if he gets a pull on his inflated line (RE: 8x $67.92 BIN sales), he can.
Values generated from an auction represent real values people are willing to pay for a card given the option to pay whatever they want until you have that last guy who pays that amount no one else is going to outshine. If you take note, that value is nearly $10 less than the BIN/Store "arbitrary value." if that doesn't say something to you, that's perfectly reasonable, but it shows that we're not talking about the same valuation system most people use when given a large sample size of a card (because we're not comparing 10 auctions for a random EDH foil but are comparing hundreds of auctions for a Legacy staple).
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But his point still stands about having to wait for auctions. That's one of the reasons auctions are inherently cheaper: you may have to wait a week to see if you even win, and sometimes you get outbid at the last second and have to start all over again. There's a convenience charge that comes with BINs, and seeing as SCG price is barely higher than the average BIN price, I would hardly blame someone for picking the reliable vendor.
I don't see what that has to do with a $10 price -- 20% of auction value -- differential on what buyer demand in the market produces versus "service fee value" on BIN/vendors on Force of Will.
I'm not disputing that auctions are cheaper than BIN and store prices because that's not what we're talking about and also known information.
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There's a significant difference between ebay and online stores. The stores charge higher because you can go to them any hour of the day and buy your playset or whatever you need assuming it's in stock. On ebay you have to bid and wait a week to see if you win, or compete at the last minute. Also because ebay sellers may not have the same reputation as a store the prices will always be lower on goods than say a store.
Another thing worth noting about ebay. Power sellers and sellers with THOUSANDS of feedback and 100% ratings will more often get higher auction endings than a non power seller with 50-100 feedback for example. If you had 9000+ feedback, or 25000+ feedback etc 100% rating on ebay and sold force of will NM you might get closer to that $55-60 range. However if another guy lists force of will and has a feedback score of 43 he may barely manage to get $50 in an auction. There are LOTS of books about the ebay market and economy that can affect the price of any item, including magic cards.
Also if someone puts up a "FORSE OF WILL" (or really, any other typographical mistake in title) on ebay and it sells for $35-40, does that mean you'll trade me yours for $40 each? If so give me a PM, i'll gladly trade or pay cash for you $35 or $40 NM force of wills.
So why can't a few dozen people say Force of will is worth $60 rather than $50? It's very logical, and as someone who does not even own the card I would gladly value your NM force of wills in the $55-60 range. These prices aren't just magically decided by some demon crawling through the tubes of the internet. To determine "value" in a card you need to analyze ebay, what stores are selling it for, and what stores are buying it for.
We also forget most traders based their trade value not on ebay aggregate prices, but a lot of times through online shops. I've run into trying to use ebay to value cards.
"I value your Jace TMS at $80-85 since that's how much they're selling for on ebay"
"But it's low is $95 on tcgplayer"
Happens all the time. More often than not unless a price spike occurs it will be the same on both sides of the field whether you use ebay prices or store prices. Ebay just has more chances of mean values not adding up the same due to variables.
Stores price on what they can sell them for. SCG and CFB can sell higher on some cards because they have the audience who is willing to pay extra to order from them. Stores are popping up every day, so how do you know which ones with low prices are reliable or trustworthy. Also with older cards, many of the larger stores have enough copies for your playset while the low priced store may only have one or two in stock.
My take on the discussion of FoW: It will probably continue to rise in value as time goes on, and it will occasionally have spikes and valleys in its value like what you are seeing right now. All this said assuming an otherwise stable future MTG economy.
For reference I saw 2 SP Time Warp selling with 30 sec left for $3.00 out the door. If I had not bid on them, they would have sold at that level. That doesn't mean the cards aren't worth $3 each.
This is false logic because it doesn't take into consideration of the demand factor. If you really want to move something, just listed an item as BIN for like 20-30% off from the average BIN and you're bound to get a hit.
If anything, for cards that have limited quantities (like Beta/Alpha duals), sometimes those prices go crazy because of a bidding war between 2 or more collectors. Bidding war doesn't happen a lot on normal items since there are always more of it.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=487991
My Sell List:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10893911#post10893911
Often enough, especially for lower demand cards, the prices can be all over the place with completed listings. In these instances I check to see what the lowest buy it nows are, as well as the lowest online store prices from places like magiccards.info and findmagiccards for NM/unplayed condition to come up with the best price I can for it.
So, once again my order of importance would be ebay completed listings, lowest end of ebay buy it nows, and then online store prices. Im also biased in some regard to ebay, because I use ebay to sell my cards, thus I dont want to value them much higher at all than what I would be able to sell them there, due in part to my trade/buy policies.
Running a business where one is trying to keep everything in stock for your customers, at some point you are going to run out, and will have to buy from other sellers eithor on ebay, from other online stores, or through a buy list like what many online stores have. If there is a card that is particularly popular and I am selling through it faster than I can normally keep up, then I have no qualms with raising the price (example being stuff like zen fetches) a little bit, in order to make sure that I can safely and quickly restock from a place like ebay or other online stores (if people dont trade them into the shop) so that I can make sure not to run out. Not only does the slightly higher price sometimes help to stem the tide of sales at least a little bit (since Im usually still cheaper than any other shop in the area), but it gives me that margin buffer so that Im not effectively selling the cards for what Im paying for them (ie: ending up losing money). So honestly, if a store like starcity is offering 4/5ths trade value ($50) or 2/3rds cash ($40) and selling them for $60 compared to the $50 on ebay or $55+ on other online store prices, then I consider that 100% fine, and simply the price they feel is fair to charge for the card, given that they probably do 10x the business of most of the other online stores you see listed on those sites, or what those ebay sellers probably due in sales. Having to pay a little more to be able to get everything from one seller and knowing its from a place with a good rep and everything else sometimes is worth the extra cost. And hey, you know what? If they price it at $60, and they dont sell, I bet they will lower the price down a little at some point so they will start selling again (though honestly, I think they will have little to no issue selling them at $60). Ill leave it at that for now.
Bidding Wars can't be used to calculate average prices, and neither can BIN's. You should be using median prices instead of average prices, people. It's just simple statistics. Having had bidding wars several times on Ebay for Beta duals, I know it happens. There are multiple people looking/wanting the same card, and sometimes you have to have that copy. Sometimes I've gone $40 over what I wanted to pay because I wanted THAT copy, since I either need it for a set and it's nice, or I just want a NM copy. Sometimes, the other person wants it more, but you have to think about the *usual* price.
-Matt
Legacy:
Thanks to SGT Chubbs for the sig
Uhh, where do you see force of wills for $40 these days? Honestly I would like to know (I could use a restock) :).
Checking ebay, I see 2 buy it nows for individual copies of force of will that are in EX/VG condition at $45 each, a single one in NM condition (with a little edge wear) for $50, and then from there it goes up to $55 in NM condition (the first available playset from one source, the lowest playset available is $220 incidently as well as listed.)
Looking at completed listings the following are the most recent buy-it-nows that sold:
($40 VG/EX), ($46 LP), ($41 didnt sell, GD), ($50 didnt sell, EX), ($44 didnt sell, EX-), ($50 NM), ($56 didnt sell NM), ($184 (4x) EX/NM), ($54 nm/m), ($62 didnt sell NM), ($140 (3x) VF), ($40 played), ($50 NM/M), ($42 VG), ($54 didnt sell/ended early MP), ($45 w/high ship LP).
Looking at completed listings for auctions we get the following:
($93 w/ship (2x) Mint (listing was bought immediately), ($49 NM), ($51 NM), ($247 (4x) 2xVG, 2xNM), ($163 (4x) LP), ($208 (4x) NM), ($40 Mint (listing was bought immediately)), ($42 NM), ($194 (4x) Played), ($44 g/nm), ($45 mint)
This is all of the information for Force of Wills over the last 48 hours. Looking at all this, it would seem to show that $50 would seem to be where it should be priced for a NM or so copy of the card, whether using auctions or buy it nows.
Barring some mass reprint of some kind to help add a significant amount to the supply, no, no it wont. At the moment its still possible to find some between $45-$55 on ebay and at some online stores. That said, its a card that is likely to steadily rise over time so long as the legacy format remains popular. I suspect that NM copies of the card will continue to sell for around $50 for the forceeable future.
If you want to get them for $50, it doesn't seem like there's any major issue in getting them for that price.
Your problem is that because, for whatever reason, you can't get paypal, your potential pool of traders is micro, and you all value cards on a scale that is more likely to scale past the value of the card you could find based on competition among lowest offers.
Cards that have eternal use in a popular format are going to remain high value for as long as that format is popular and still will be unlikely to lose value because there is no harm in keeping that elevated price because it's not like that card will ever be unplayable, barring a banning.
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The question then becomes, are they NM, and are there any still up right now at that price? Force of Will was a solid $40 a few months ago, but has been rising lately, along with other popular legacy staples and EDH staples. And heck, if you can find NM ones right now for $40, you should buy all of them and then resell them and make some profit :).
people i our country base of SCG for all staples then maybe minus $1-$5 of that depending on playability, it kinda sucks since I want to tell them are you a intl seller like SCG which pay taxes and salary? Your just some schmo who open packs or got them from other players.
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How long ago is "not too long ago"? There definitely is no one now on MOTL selling them for $40. There are certainly people trying to buy them for $40, but who knows how that's going for them.
The whole issue of stores charging more seems like a moot point. Yes, you can get things cheaper on ebay. It's no different than anything else, at all, anywhere. You can get nearly anything in life for cheaper than "full retail" if you put in the time and effort to find it, and ebay takes time and effort. If you have more free time than you do free money, than you can get better deals spending the time to find them. Extra money is easier to come by for me, extra time isn't, so I don't mind paying a few bucks for convenience if I buy from an established store.
These are some good points. I just wanted to add a few thoughts: first, playsets are what people want and need for playing blue in Legacy or Vintage, therefore buying one at a time is a pain but is sometimes the only way you can get your x 4; second, FoW is one of the most popular Vintage and Legacy blue staples of all time, and it's necessary if you want to play competitively in either format; third, legacy season will pump the price short term and that may account for the peaks and valleys in prices in general for Legacy/Vintage staples, but the long term trend is for greater interest and more new players in Legacy each year. Vintage? I am not sure about if this is growing at the same rate.
As more people get burned out buying expensive Mythics to play competitively in Standard only to see their collection drop in value every year they start to gravitate toward Legacy because of the relative price stability. FoW prices will correct at some point, but the long-term trend is for the price only to continue to rise. If you can wait until Legacy season dies down, then buy then; however, you never know when low supply and high demand will sustain high prices.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=487991
My Sell List:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10893911#post10893911
I don't feel safe saying this is a temp spike, fow has steadily rised since its extended rotation as legacy became popular. It pretty much is going to have to be reprinted to reduce its value at this point.
Wasteland to, it has 3 printings of tempest, judge foil, and mpr and its still going strong.
These will have to be reprinted in a set, duel deck, or other wizard's product to put a substantial dent in their value.
How many are you selling for $40? Ill buy them all.
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