Why aren't you asking all the anime alterer's to give the original artist credit. Every alter that has a popular character is based of someone else's work. Why is this just now becoming an issue?
I don't have time to check ever alter, I only know this one because someone linked me to the original picture; to a great degree I expect this community to be mature enough to Do the Right Thing.
I replied to rianaln via PM but wanted to express some of the same thoughts here as Fair Use in art is a tricky issue. Here's the PM:
I didn't believe I was in violation of that rule as the work is painted and not a straight copy/paste of Yardin's work. I felt this rule applied more to digital mockups that featured a googled image.
Artist appropriation happens all the time in the fine art world. Andy Warhol, Jasper Johns, and Roy Lichtenstein are all artists that appropriated work into their own. While I don't feel altering is necessary on the same level to be considered 'fine art,' I do feel similar philosophies apply.
To be clear, I try to give credit where credit is due. Sorry to say I didn't go out of my way to name the original artist on the Gambit I used for reference. I wasn't trying to deliberately fool anyone and claim that the work was my original design. I've always been forward about using outside references.
I'll bow out by saying I'm glad the moderation is getting better in the altered forum where it was non-existent in the past. But at the same time I've received three warnings/infractions in the past few weeks. As far as I can recall I hadn't recieved any in the previous six years I've been on this forum.
Did I violate any rules of the forum? Perhaps. Was I purposely spamming or claiming another's work to be my own? Of course not. I can't help but feel I'm being singled out. Anyway, I just wanted to express these thoughts. In light of these events I'll be taking a break from Salvation for the foreseeable future.
Cheers,
Eric
I wanted to thank everyone for commenting on my work and for contributing to one of the coolest subforums out there. I'll still check in from time to time but I won't be posting anymore. Thanks!
C'mon, Klug. Compare your piece to the original; it's a copy, & I don't see any evidence that you 'tried' to give credit where credit is due – "hey guys, I saw this awesome Gambit pic on deviant art!"
Medium doesn't matter; art is art, respect is respect.
No one is being singled out; I am enforcing the rules across the board.
Bummer to hear Klug, you and a few others are the only reason I come to this sub-forum. I normally do not like alters in my personal collection, but I do admire the talent that it takes to make them.
C'mon, Klug. Compare your piece to the original; it's a copy, & I don't see any evidence that you 'tried' to give credit where credit is due – "hey guys, I saw this awesome Gambit pic on deviant art!"
Medium doesn't matter; art is art, respect is respect.
No one is being singled out; I am enforcing the rules across the board.
Take it easy out there.
Are you going to go out and locate the other alters used art because there isn't a whole lot of originals in here..
I can't understand how any of this is a problem. You post images derivative of the work of others, give them credit. Provide a link or a bit of text. Big deal.
I don't imagine that Rianalnn is going to go back and reprimand every past offender here, but I look forward to seeing this rule enforced in the future.
@ Retrigger: Everyone else posts their alters in this thread. Why should you get your own?
while its nice to see some moderating in the forum, I think an infraction here was a bit extreme. I might have just missed it but i don't remember seeing a warning about this topic at all in the recent and i check this thread at least once a day.
I feel like this alter was singled out because it was based on something on deviantart rather than something else because as someone already said, all the anime alters aren't asked for any sources, pokemon alters aren't, and generally any of the other alters based on stock images from movies or directly from a comic book photo aren't asked to provide sources. I did a quick deviantart search for a few popular charcters like spiderman and within the first few pages i found a number of images that off the top of my head i recognized as references that were blatantly copied for alters posted here. granted, with the nature of these forums, for most of those other sources are common knowledge, but that shouldn't really make a difference as far as rules are concerned. I can easily see where Klug seems singled out as on the last 2 pages there are MLP, pokemon and anime chicks, all of which I'm fairly certain were gleaned from another internet source and not cited. Obviously it would be impossible to go and infract every single alter copied from another source since i would guess there are upwards of 5000 posted here.
I can understand if you were trying to make a point here, especially becasue klug is a well known artist that a lot of people look up too. Most of us here already know that most of klugs comic characters are not pulled out of thin air so i really don't think his intention here was to try and pull one over on everyone else and claim it as his own original work.
I understand you are just trying to do your job as a moderator, but rather than infract Klug on a page with other things that violate the same rule, a blanket statement of everyone must post their sources would be better. Even ignoring this whole thing right now, it might be a good idea to add that to the list of rules that get commonly enforce.
Although I don't really have the authority to make anyone do this since i'm not a moderator, it might be a good idea that in light of this, everyone should post/mention whatever sources they use regardless of how common of obvious it is, whether its an obscure picture from the depths of the internet or the header on mtgs.
No Artwork Theft
if you're going to post artwork that is not your own (this includes other's artwork that you have modified) make sure you are within the guidelines of Fair Use or make it clear that you have permission from the artist. If you post a render of your designs that shows art created by anyone other than you, you must properly credit the artist. Properly crediting the artist means posting either:
the artist's full name, e.g. "Linda Bergkvist"
the artist's screen name and the website where you got the art from, e.g., "squidinc at CGSociety.com"
a link to the website where you got the art and indicate as such, e.g., "Art: http://www.alexiuss.deviantart.com/gallery/"
You may give this credit in your post text or in the copyright line of the render. The rule of thumb here is that if the artist can be found in an internet search with reasonable ease based on the information you provided, you're fine.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Trade Thread here Currently Taking altered art Comissions. www.nf96alters.webs.com
Quick and Cheap Alters (looking to fill up some slots so some special pricing currently)
Wow, this totally blows. Don't stop posting Klug, seriously. I agree with you that that moderation was BS, but don't make the entire community suffer for that. At least half the alters on this thread are stolen from GIS, and none of them are modded. Makes no sense at all.
It will be sad to see Klug go, he's on of the best alterer artists in this thread. I had noticed over the last couple weeks that he was moderated quite a bit.. I think it's mostly because of the quality of his work, and this moderator wanted to make an example out of him. I don't think it's particularly fair, and I can see why he is frustrated. Saying "I don't know every source" isn't a good reason not to moderate all of the other "ripoffs." It is very obvious that most of the anime, comic book and My Little Pony alters are copied directly from a source image.. I think it's just become common knowledge in this thread that that's what alterers do. I very rarely see anyone write "taken from a random image on Google," because it's kind of a statement of the obvious.
I only believe it's really a problem if someone is claiming ownership of the original art. Otherwise, is there any real harm? Most of these images are from professional artists and franchises, who really aren't be hurt by this "art theft" (and I say this with quotes). Alterers do make money from their work, but they don't really make money from selling the original art.. someone asks for "Gambit" on their card because they like the character, not because they want you to create a miniature version of a perticular painting, usually.
I don't like the direction that the forum is heading in.. I like that it's being moderated more, but I think it should be done with thought and consideration. I definitely don't think one or two artists should be singled out without prior warning for behaviour that is already common on the thread.
I hope you change your mind, Klug. Certainly this thread is one of the best ways to get your work seen by people interested in alters, and you're one of the best. But I understand your position and will give you a more genuine "wish you well."
I wanted to thank everyone for commenting on my work and for contributing to one of the coolest subforums out there. I'll still check in from time to time but I won't be posting anymore. Thanks!
/end thread
I hope this means more frequent updates to Eric Klug Art Blog.
I can't understand how any of this is a problem. You post images derivative of the work of others, give them credit. Provide a link or a bit of text. Big deal.
+1. Babe anime lands and klug's alters aren't the offenders (obviously), just a lack of resources. Now I thought it was obvious klug works almost primarily off of referenced material, but there are legal implications for this forum if they don't at least abide by the Fair Use rules (which are pretty lenient outside of posting a reference).
Commissions: Everything is either mailed, or being worked on. Updates to come soon.
I replied to rianaln via PM but wanted to express some of the same thoughts here as Fair Use in art is a tricky issue. Here's the PM:
I wanted to thank everyone for commenting on my work and for contributing to one of the coolest subforums out there. I'll still check in from time to time but I won't be posting anymore. Thanks!
:jam:ROCK ON DUDE !!!
@moderators:
has there been any recent complains about the work posted here ? I just don't get how you are dredging this old piece out of the drain to display it for everyone here.
And im very curious about this since i too use pieces that are not mine, art that i often dredge from various websites around the inter webs often without an owner. please tell me if my alters can still be displayed here.:-/
Why would you be curious? You appropriated someone else's artwork and didn't provide citation... so you should. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, but there should be something that connects the dots between your design and the source material. At no point did ANYONE say that you can't post ANY of the cards anyone is making: just that if you do copy something that you should provide citation. It's really that simple.
Also, yes, it was said that THAT piece was reported. Moderators don't go through every post so somebody must have reported it. If you look at the Art Forum Rules that were posted on November 14th there is a part about this. And yes, there is some gray area and some debate about what "fair use" is, but if all we have to do is give a nod to the source, then why not?! I want this place to be more professional, not less. I assume everyone that posts here on a regular basis wants the same thing, yeah? If it restricted my freedom to work then I might have a different tone of voice, but as it is I have been lazy and should have been citing my sources for years. This is the right thing to do for this community.
In terms of legal issues with altering magic cards and respecting fair use laws, I think that the action of using a magic card as a medium for art inherently gets around fair use laws, no matter how closely an artist makes the alteration look like a different work. It is the alterist's intention as an artist to create a new work with a new purpose, which is referred to as transformative use.
The changes than be made can be quite small and still get around fair use laws, as long as it is reasonably clear that an artist's intentions are to use the art in a way that is not simply recreating the exact art as the original artist. This Ars Technica article http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2006/05/6876.ars gives details on how a book printed with thumbnails of Grateful Dead concert posters, resized and coupled them with timelines and captions and were found to be within their legal rights to do so because the intention and use of the pictures were different than the original art's use and intentions.
I respect Mtgs's wariness of potential legal issues and their ability to make the rules for the forum (it's their forum, they can make up whatever rules they please :D), but I think that what this issue comes down to is that the rule about no artwork theft...
No Artwork Theft
if you're going to post artwork that is not your own (this includes other's artwork that you have modified) make sure you are within the guidelines of Fair Use or make it clear that you have permission from the artist. If you post a render of your designs that shows art created by anyone other than you, you must properly credit the artist. Properly crediting the artist means posting either:
the artist's full name, e.g. "Linda Bergkvist"
the artist's screen name and the website where you got the art from, e.g., "squidinc at CGSociety.com"
a link to the website where you got the art and indicate as such, e.g., "Art: http://www.alexiuss.deviantart.com/gallery/"
You may give this credit in your post text or in the copyright line of the render. The rule of thumb here is that if the artist can be found in an internet search with reasonable ease based on the information you provided, you're fine.
... is inaccurate in its assumptions about what can get alterists and the forum in trouble regarding fair use. The part in parentheses about modifying people's art in regards to altering magic cards does not inherently mean that the alterist is violating fair use and require them to credit another artist. Respecting other artists and crediting them of your own free will is a whole different issue and up to the poster in the end.
All in all this is a pretty serious topic. I hope everyone involved with the forum and with MTG Alterations in general gained some insight into fair use from my text above and will familiarize themselves with fair use laws before overly persecuting alterists for what might not infringe on them.
Edit: also /agree with Galspanic about the just including crediting links out of general "doing the right thing"-ness.
Back on forum topic:
Masamune you are awesome, you keep posting such sick stuff.
@ Klug - Your alters were some of my favorites. I hope you don't stop posting, but I will def make more stops at your blog.
I agree that a blanket warning to all artists would have been a favored alternative to attacking Klug directly, as it is well known many artists here recreate/integrate other artists work onto cards (especially comic based works, that gambit image is a well known Yardin piece).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing Modern :symu::0mana:Sundering-Architect:0mana::symu: EDH :symr::symg::symw:Uril the Miststalker:symw::symg::symr:/:symb::symg::symw:Karador, Ghost Chieftain:symw::symg::symb: Legacy :symr:Burn:symr:
@Oneiros: Thank you so much! That was incredibly informative. I've often wondered about how alters relate in terms of fair use, and you've answered a lot of my questions!
Anyway, trying to slowly grind this forum back on topic.
I woke up this morning realizing that I was about to head to charlotte with NO LOLCATS! And I know, no self respecting artist would dare show up to a venue without lolcats.
that alt is sooo wicked I must have it! necro has been my fave for a loooong time. I have a few alters of it but they're all terrible. I once saw a guy back in like 2000 that painted on a santa hat and some snow - it was sooo baller and I was sooo poor that I printed out a necro and sharpied on a santa hat
Thanks! <3<3
Anyway, Charlotte is rapidly approaching, and I've got a ton of awesome ideas that I wanna get to paint before I leave!!
Or as always, you can find me on twitter @BlackWingStudio or DeviantArt
I want to own a thousand of those Ed alters.. nice work.
edit: just one thing.. she has a noodle arm. You might want to give her a bit more of an elbow haha.
Really like the detail work on that Gambit too.. but it feels like the weapon he's holding should be popping out of the frame too.
I'm not selling through eBay anymore - if you see anything you'd like, contact me and we can work out a price.
My EDH Deck:
:symw::symu: Rasputin Dreamweaver: Flickering Friends
The level of detail in this Gambit is outstanding. Very stunning work.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
COMMISSION STATUS: OPEN
Check out my Facebook
It's not hard, & you'd appreciate the same courtesy.
http://davidyardin.deviantart.com/art/X-Men-Origins-Gambit-116576027
Here is his own thread on them.
Demo, you are on an amazing hot streak (lucky me that several of them are on there way to my house). Your work is beautiful.
Why aren't you asking all the anime alterer's to give the original artist credit. Every alter that has a popular character is based of someone else's work. Why is this just now becoming an issue?
Directly copying an image is plagerism.
I don't have time to check ever alter, I only know this one because someone linked me to the original picture; to a great degree I expect this community to be mature enough to Do the Right Thing.
I replied to rianaln via PM but wanted to express some of the same thoughts here as Fair Use in art is a tricky issue. Here's the PM:
I wanted to thank everyone for commenting on my work and for contributing to one of the coolest subforums out there. I'll still check in from time to time but I won't be posting anymore. Thanks!
Facebook.
Alters Blog.
Medium doesn't matter; art is art, respect is respect.
No one is being singled out; I am enforcing the rules across the board.
Take it easy out there.
Are you going to go out and locate the other alters used art because there isn't a whole lot of originals in here..
I don't imagine that Rianalnn is going to go back and reprimand every past offender here, but I look forward to seeing this rule enforced in the future.
@ Retrigger: Everyone else posts their alters in this thread. Why should you get your own?
RRR Buy some of my art! Prints! RRR
I feel like this alter was singled out because it was based on something on deviantart rather than something else because as someone already said, all the anime alters aren't asked for any sources, pokemon alters aren't, and generally any of the other alters based on stock images from movies or directly from a comic book photo aren't asked to provide sources. I did a quick deviantart search for a few popular charcters like spiderman and within the first few pages i found a number of images that off the top of my head i recognized as references that were blatantly copied for alters posted here. granted, with the nature of these forums, for most of those other sources are common knowledge, but that shouldn't really make a difference as far as rules are concerned. I can easily see where Klug seems singled out as on the last 2 pages there are MLP, pokemon and anime chicks, all of which I'm fairly certain were gleaned from another internet source and not cited. Obviously it would be impossible to go and infract every single alter copied from another source since i would guess there are upwards of 5000 posted here.
I can understand if you were trying to make a point here, especially becasue klug is a well known artist that a lot of people look up too. Most of us here already know that most of klugs comic characters are not pulled out of thin air so i really don't think his intention here was to try and pull one over on everyone else and claim it as his own original work.
I understand you are just trying to do your job as a moderator, but rather than infract Klug on a page with other things that violate the same rule, a blanket statement of everyone must post their sources would be better. Even ignoring this whole thing right now, it might be a good idea to add that to the list of rules that get commonly enforce.
Although I don't really have the authority to make anyone do this since i'm not a moderator, it might be a good idea that in light of this, everyone should post/mention whatever sources they use regardless of how common of obvious it is, whether its an obscure picture from the depths of the internet or the header on mtgs.
Currently Taking altered art Comissions. www.nf96alters.webs.com
Quick and Cheap Alters (looking to fill up some slots so some special pricing currently)
Ebay Stuff
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I only believe it's really a problem if someone is claiming ownership of the original art. Otherwise, is there any real harm? Most of these images are from professional artists and franchises, who really aren't be hurt by this "art theft" (and I say this with quotes). Alterers do make money from their work, but they don't really make money from selling the original art.. someone asks for "Gambit" on their card because they like the character, not because they want you to create a miniature version of a perticular painting, usually.
I don't like the direction that the forum is heading in.. I like that it's being moderated more, but I think it should be done with thought and consideration. I definitely don't think one or two artists should be singled out without prior warning for behaviour that is already common on the thread.
I hope you change your mind, Klug. Certainly this thread is one of the best ways to get your work seen by people interested in alters, and you're one of the best. But I understand your position and will give you a more genuine "wish you well."
To stay more on topic..
Really like the choice of art for this card, looks really cool.
I'm not selling through eBay anymore - if you see anything you'd like, contact me and we can work out a price.
My EDH Deck:
:symw::symu: Rasputin Dreamweaver: Flickering Friends
/end thread
I hope this means more frequent updates to Eric Klug Art Blog.
+1. Babe anime lands and klug's alters aren't the offenders (obviously), just a lack of resources. Now I thought it was obvious klug works almost primarily off of referenced material, but there are legal implications for this forum if they don't at least abide by the Fair Use rules (which are pretty lenient outside of posting a reference).
Commissions: Everything is either mailed, or being worked on. Updates to come soon.
Art Page
Alters for sale
:jam:ROCK ON DUDE !!!
@moderators:
has there been any recent complains about the work posted here ? I just don't get how you are dredging this old piece out of the drain to display it for everyone here.
And im very curious about this since i too use pieces that are not mine, art that i often dredge from various websites around the inter webs often without an owner. please tell me if my alters can still be displayed here.:-/
here is my last piece for reference:
and the original(s)
Also, yes, it was said that THAT piece was reported. Moderators don't go through every post so somebody must have reported it. If you look at the Art Forum Rules that were posted on November 14th there is a part about this. And yes, there is some gray area and some debate about what "fair use" is, but if all we have to do is give a nod to the source, then why not?! I want this place to be more professional, not less. I assume everyone that posts here on a regular basis wants the same thing, yeah? If it restricted my freedom to work then I might have a different tone of voice, but as it is I have been lazy and should have been citing my sources for years. This is the right thing to do for this community.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
The changes than be made can be quite small and still get around fair use laws, as long as it is reasonably clear that an artist's intentions are to use the art in a way that is not simply recreating the exact art as the original artist. This Ars Technica article http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2006/05/6876.ars gives details on how a book printed with thumbnails of Grateful Dead concert posters, resized and coupled them with timelines and captions and were found to be within their legal rights to do so because the intention and use of the pictures were different than the original art's use and intentions.
I respect Mtgs's wariness of potential legal issues and their ability to make the rules for the forum (it's their forum, they can make up whatever rules they please :D), but I think that what this issue comes down to is that the rule about no artwork theft...
No Artwork Theft
if you're going to post artwork that is not your own (this includes other's artwork that you have modified) make sure you are within the guidelines of Fair Use or make it clear that you have permission from the artist. If you post a render of your designs that shows art created by anyone other than you, you must properly credit the artist. Properly crediting the artist means posting either:
the artist's full name, e.g. "Linda Bergkvist"
the artist's screen name and the website where you got the art from, e.g., "squidinc at CGSociety.com"
a link to the website where you got the art and indicate as such, e.g., "Art: http://www.alexiuss.deviantart.com/gallery/"
You may give this credit in your post text or in the copyright line of the render. The rule of thumb here is that if the artist can be found in an internet search with reasonable ease based on the information you provided, you're fine.
... is inaccurate in its assumptions about what can get alterists and the forum in trouble regarding fair use. The part in parentheses about modifying people's art in regards to altering magic cards does not inherently mean that the alterist is violating fair use and require them to credit another artist. Respecting other artists and crediting them of your own free will is a whole different issue and up to the poster in the end.
All in all this is a pretty serious topic. I hope everyone involved with the forum and with MTG Alterations in general gained some insight into fair use from my text above and will familiarize themselves with fair use laws before overly persecuting alterists for what might not infringe on them.
Edit: also /agree with Galspanic about the just including crediting links out of general "doing the right thing"-ness.
Back on forum topic:
Masamune you are awesome, you keep posting such sick stuff.
Necroooo:
Serra's Sanctum:
My Alters:
http://photobucket.com/oneiros76
I do commissions woooeeeooo
My Store:
http://tinyurl.com/6p9n2vw
I agree that a blanket warning to all artists would have been a favored alternative to attacking Klug directly, as it is well known many artists here recreate/integrate other artists work onto cards (especially comic based works, that gambit image is a well known Yardin piece).
Modern
:symu::0mana:Sundering-Architect:0mana::symu:
EDH
:symr::symg::symw:Uril the Miststalker:symw::symg::symr:/:symb::symg::symw:Karador, Ghost Chieftain:symw::symg::symb:
Legacy
:symr:Burn:symr:
My Cube
Some of my Alters
My Trades (retired)
My Sales
Anyway, trying to slowly grind this forum back on topic.
I woke up this morning realizing that I was about to head to charlotte with NO LOLCATS! And I know, no self respecting artist would dare show up to a venue without lolcats.
Picture of cat I found © GeckoGrrl83 from some blog I found geckogrrl.wordpress.com/
Sol ring, mana symbols, and Tap symbol all © 2011 Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of Hasbro Corporation.
Cat safety cone or "E-Collar" © 2008 Trimline brand Veterinary Feline Recovery devices
Reaper Core Colors HD Series Paints © 2001-2011 Hobby Q, Inc.
I apologize, but I was unable to attain the proper copyright information for cats due to discrepancy issues with the copyright filings. They are either © 4000BC - God, or © 12,000,000BC via a collective intellectual property between billions of slowly evolving bacterium. I apologize for any trouble, and will happily cite the correct copyright should the true patent holder wish to contact me.
Anyway, last post before SCG Charlotte! Hopefully I'll see some of you there! Stop by and say hi!
Or as always, you can find me on twitter @BlackWingStudio or DeviantArt
Visit: Cabalwannabe's Art page right here on MTGS!
Cabalwannabe's Cards!
Control Lover Generation 1 if you see this in someones sig copy it and take the generation number plus 1 to show your generation!
Cabalwannabe's Stories
So'for of the Vedalken
Vansen, Dreamer of Dreams
Clone of Joan
Aeriedle's Mission