The title pretty much sums it up. I was wondering if there were any examples of black mana users doing good, or being the good guys. I was just wondering if they are completely evil, or just get represented that way. Your thoughts?
I'm not hugely acquainted with the Kamigawa storyline, but I believe Toshi (and the Umezawas generally) is a (sort of) good guy. And Sorin, while not particularly nice, is something of a hero, as it seems.
The title pretty much sums it up. I was wondering if there were any examples of black mana users doing good, or being the good guys. I was just wondering if they are completely evil, or just get represented that way. Your thoughts?
It absolutely can be used to do good, if you're not biased against Black to begin with.
What exactly do you find good about Toshi, viperesque?
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Toshi was not necessarily a "good" person, but he was the protagonist of his story and was instrumental in ending the Kami War. Though he was mostly just looking out for himself, his actions ultimately led to a greater good.
Black isn't any more inherently evil than white is good. Black merely represents accomplishing the goal at any cost, which might be killing a kitten to become a powerful lich or killing a kitten to stave off the earth destroying monster.
Black is generally more selfish than the other colors, but it isn't necessarily evil.
For me, black mana and the philosophy that is connected to it contains ambition and egoism. It means getting what you want.
And often you get what you want when you do good. Like helping the poor head librarian against some thugs and getting in return his thanks and access to a forbidden part of the library that saves you the inconvenience of breaking into the section, fighting the guardian golems, dismantling the magical traps and protecting yourself against the authorities.
For me, black mana and the philosophy that is connected to it contains ambition and egoism. It means getting what you want.
And often you get what you want when you do good. Like helping the poor head librarian against some thugs and getting in return his thanks and access to a forbidden part of the library that saves you the inconvenience of breaking into the section, fighting the guardian golems, dismantling the magical traps and protecting yourself against the authorities.
This is kinda how I viewed the color black as well. I just wanted to see what others thought.
I consider myself squarely in the black part of the color pie (this sentence originally read, "I consider myself black," but I reconsidered). Here's why:
1. I'm very ambitious
2. I'm cocky
3. I'll do what I have to do to survive
4. I view the masses as a mindless zombie which I can control
5. When someone falls down, I gain two life...er...I mean I laugh.
Am I evil? Well, I don't believe that any one color is innately evil or good. I think I'm a good person, but I'm also quite capable to dismiss my morals if the need arises for it. However, this is how I would view a fantasy character if he/she were good based on the above attributes:
1. Ambitions: Imagine Mulan, Turk from Scrubs, or Will Smith's character in The Pursuit of Happyness
2. Cockiness: Think any sports movie. There has to be a level of cockiness to be able to perform in front of an audience - be it on the field, on stage, or in front of a congregation.
3. Self-preservation: Most people mistaken this one with evil. The fact is, I am willing to kill someone to survive, but that doesn't mean I'm a murderer. The chance of me needing to defend myself in this manner is slim to none, but it exists nonetheless. When this trait is good is when I'm saving the person next to me as well!
4. Manipulation: Here's where black and blue overlap a bit. Black's part of manipulation comes from the desire to improve oneself. Donating money to get a tax break, volunteering for a bullet statement on your resume, doing extra credit for an A. Are these things bad? Not at all. Not everyone has a desire to remain anonymous. That doesn't mean the deeds are any less valuable!
5. Absorption: I believe the "drain life" mechanic ties into another strong attribute of black. This is the ability to feed off of others' mistakes. This can be portrayed as a good thing on shows like "America's Funniest Home Videos" which brings laughter to many homes...at the expense of others. Another example is the comedian who can make fun of a sensitive issue to help alleviate some of the tension and to encourage conversation.
So why do I think black gets a bad rap? Because people have this twisted notion of "selflessness". Like it's more noble to do things in secret. Well, I'm a good guy! And I'm going to remind you of that constantly. You may not like me, and some may call me evil because of the selfish motivations I possess, but I still do good for many people. The guy who's home I helped rebuild after Katrina won't care that I did for a resume bullet. He's just happy someone volunteered to do it!
Wow, that was longer than I expected. Sorry, and enjoy!
For me, black mana and the philosophy that is connected to it contains ambition and egoism. It means getting what you want.
And often you get what you want when you do good. Like helping the poor head librarian against some thugs and getting in return his thanks and access to a forbidden part of the library that saves you the inconvenience of breaking into the section, fighting the guardian golems, dismantling the magical traps and protecting yourself against the authorities.
Have you been playing Neverwinter Nights 2?
frizbone's is a go-to post. Good stuff.
EDIT: And regarding Toshi, I think I made my point my point is made.
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No magic is inherently bad or good. It isn't the magic itself, but instead, what one accomplishes with it. Color philosophy will generally draw one towards accomplishing your goals with certain colors, but the jury is still rather out on if you could accomplish your goals with ANY color of mana. Rather, certain mana is more suited for certain tasks.
I cite Radha's use of red mana to accomplish a healing spell, and could probably find other sources for those examples. For the record, it hurt like hell, but it did technically heal them, but obviously nowhere near as well as had she used the green mana the spell itself was designed for.
So, in essence, not only is magic itself not inherently anything, neither is the mana needed for it.
Good points Barinellos and Frizbone. Ambition definitely doesn't make something evil, but it does lead to power, and power can often corrupt. Just a point of devils advocate.
Good points Barinellos and Frizbone. Ambition definitely doesn't make something evil, but it does lead to power, and power can often corrupt. Just a point of devils advocate.
But that is not something that the power itself does. It's the character of the man that uses the power that is succeptible to corruption.
Unlike in other systems of magic, such as the Harry Dresden universe (where black magic is addictive and corrupting), magic is just a tool in Dominia. Any power is just a tool.
As stated, power doesn't naturally corrupt an individual. It's usually the individual himself that's corruptible. Ambition is a good thing. It gives people the will and motivation to strive to be better. It's when ambition is lost that it usually leads to "evil". I think it's more common for someone to turn to the dark side - if you will - after the goals have been met. The reason this is, is because most people simply stop striving to achieve more.
For example, I had a friend who's grand-father grew up during the great depression. He strove to overcome his hardships and provide for himself and his family. These are very selfish and black-oriented ambitions. He instilled these values in his son (my friend's father) who then strove to provide an even better life for his family. Unfortunately he succeeded. Why is this unfortunate? Because instead of instilling ambition into my friend, he simply gave him everything he wanted. Now my friend is lazy and bored most of the time. Is he a bad person? Not really. But he doesn't have the desire to help those around him as his ancestor's did. It seems his self-centeredness is more rooted in the negative aspects of black's color wheel then his father and grandfather before him.
EDIT: And regarding Toshi, I think I made my point my point is made.
No, not yet, but I plan to in the next three years or so. ^^ As soon as I get a newer computer.
@theme
Ambition is not necessarily a black thing, it can also be every other color (only green could be an exception) So is cockyness.
Black is really just getting what you want. It does not require being evil or doing evil things. You even don't have to be completely scrupelous or merciless. Though it helps most of the time.
Barinellos: I understand that mana has no moral alignment, and I hate to rehash this one, but it must be brought up again. What of the seemingly oxymoronic "Evil Green"? Certainly, while people can view some green acts as evil, it depends on your mindset.
Ultimately and unfortunately, someone purely white-aligned may think that a purely black-aligned being [Frizbone? lol]'s actions are wrong, even if they are for the good of the cause that united the two [if applicable], while a blue or red-aligned being in the white's position may deem the actions necessary. All that separates right and wrong are the mindsets of people with opposing opinions.
I have a story. My high school Literature class was reading Night by Elie Wiesel. One of the kids, during a discussion, made some points that all of the other kids, most of whom were Jewish, deemed very VERY wrong. However, if they had put their biases aside they may have seen his points as quite valid. I tried, but I also had to disagree with him [as my own biases were great as well].
Regardless, if people weren't biased, there would be no right and no wrong. Of course, my point is that one cannot bring personal views and biases into a color's ideology, because that is being judgmental, and that is not the best idea. I mean, it's like asking, "Are red mages dumb or can they be smart?" or "Are all green-aligned beings savages/primitive?" It just doesn't work.
In my opinion Black isn't evil, for all the reasons people mentioned in this thread, but because of its ambition and selfishness of all the colours in magic it can be corrupted and tempted the easiest. Black is the colour most likely to be evil. The next colour most likely to be used for evil is in my opinion white and if it is it is the most horrible and cruel evil. In my opinion religious fundametalism, communism, fascism and racism are all examples of evil white traits.
I have to agree that white's evil is in many cases worse then the other colors. Mostly because white evil can seem more fanatic an cultish. Black often takes the form of simple tyranny. I have to say though I think the manifestation of blue as evil would be simple terrifying.
No magic is inherently bad or good. It isn't the magic itself, but instead, what one accomplishes with it. Color philosophy will generally draw one towards accomplishing your goals with certain colors, but the jury is still rather out on if you could accomplish your goals with ANY color of mana. Rather, certain mana is more suited for certain tasks.
I cite Radha's use of red mana to accomplish a healing spell,
She didn't use Red mana to cast a healing spell.
She used Red mana to cast a fire spell, and, in virtue of the operation of combustion, the target's biological make-up, and the physical structure of her universe plane, the target's wound closed over.
I wonder whether or not this feat bothers me. The whole cauterization thing... because Red really shouldn't allow healing... <.<
*~*~*~
I think it's important to stress the "many cases" part of tkdlaxer's post. Yes, that's true. In many cases.
I think it has to do with the gradations of subtlety, and the complexity of moral dilemmae, according to each colour, and then you apply the normal curve of "problem-solving aptitude" to the population of potential villains of that colour.
I mean, White appearing fanatic and cultish, is because White gives the appearance it doesn't think. But in some way, what White is doing is it's saying that all the thinking has already been done. White magic is about giving the world your justice. If you are just, then White will let you exact just things! But the kinds of moral dilemmae faced by White are like this: You are in command of an army. You have information regarding the enemy's communication. You have information that some of your combatants will be attacked with overwhelming force, but to prepare for it would betray the information you have to the enemy, reducing its usefulness.
White has a decision to make here, and it's the kind of decision that's a decision for White, but it could still seem blind to others looking on it.
If one were to tell a story about a White protagonist that faced these kinds of intricacies. . . this choosing between good and greater good on an even higher level than most good vs. greater good scenarios... you'd have to make the protagonist pretty intelligent to start or you wouldn't have a plot; he wouldn't be able to consider or weigh those kinds of things.
My point is, this kind of exception would thus have to be "rare," thus giving truth to your "many cases" statement.
Blue as evil or good is ... something else. Blue is nothing but figuring out how to get what you want. If Blue sets about good, it will apply some consequentialist model and try to work things out for maximum utility. If Blue sets about for evil, it's going to look the same way.
You really can't get a story from Blue out of those things. If Blue wants to, it will be more greedy than Black, to the point you can't make a narrative out of it. There's no reconsideration (what word am I looking for), Blue acts when it is confident in the plan. Even Black can deal with the conflicts of the Human heart and mind... what it means to
Blue's stories are about getting other people to beat the resistances and fears within themselves.
As a villain, Blue is one-dimensional... because Blue is basically every stock villain that isn't Black. You can't go in to his motivations because, "sane" and "rational," they are yet simple, as Blue's philosophy itself.
Evil Blue is not terrifying; you've seen it already. Evil Blue is just stimulating, but that's in virtue of other things about the writing. See Lex Luthor. The nemesis structure of him as an in-Superman-universe-character, is set up with his Blue-Blackness. But its his personality that does the rest.
It's a Blue hero I've yet to see.
Somehow TimeSpiral was just... too plain. :\ I mean... it's not as though Teferi's Blueness won the day there; he was just the only guy paying attention. Of *anyone* who knew about what was going on, who wouldn't be trying to fix it? Okay, Nicol Bolas, maybe, but I didn't see him coming up with a way out.
And I didn't even see evidence of Teferi's blueness throughout! Perhaps those things are related. The direness was just so clear, no real heroism could come out. Teferi's skill at manipulating others did help, though.
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The green mage's act of wiping out complete cities of innocents because he thinks they destroy nature will be seen as evil by nearly everyone, the same as the black mage sacrificing a little child to satisfy his demon will be seen as evil.
Every color's way is capable of letting you do radical things that harm a great part of community, and each time the majority of that community will see these things as evil.
But some color's ways make you do evil things more often than others since some color's are less focused on community and more on individuals. So I think black is capable of the most evil (because it's all about oneself), followed by red (because it's unpredictable), green of the least (because it's all about others) and the other two colors between (because they care for the community but mostly first for community and second for single individuals in it)
The green mage's act of wiping out complete cities of innocents because he thinks they destroy nature will be seen as evil by nearly everyone, the same as the black mage sacrificing a little child to satisfy his demon will be seen as evil.
Every color's way is capable of letting you do radical things that harm a great part of community, and each time the majority of that community will see these things as evil.
But some color's ways make you do evil things more often than others since some color's are less focused on community and more on individuals. So I think black is capable of the most evil (because it's all about oneself), followed by red (because it's unpredictable), green of the least (because it's all about others) and the other two colors between (because they care for the community but mostly first for community and second for single individuals in it)
You've assumed that the community is more important than the individual.
I don't find that true.
To make these judgments is to take the colors but then use some morality that is objective, or nonetheless external, to the five, and apply it to all of them. But the very nature of the colors is that they are relativist. And exhaustive.
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The trouble with the thinking of the green mage...is that we dont know if non-humanoids have any degree of thought process like ours. are they capable of thinking of what is good or bad? if so, do they bother with that? Because if so, "nearly everyone" would be a gross exaggeration...if they think like us.
What bothers me at this point is that your view of the green mage's attack on these hypothetical cities is in the same boat as the black mage's sacrifice of a child for the sake of a demon.
Say the two stories were intertwined.
The green mage is very well-known within a plane's largest city as a good-natured individual, but is only trying to gain their trust so she is not suspected of a terribly large crime. She has more of a loyalty to the wilds than this city.
The black mage is a virtual unknown but lives middle-class in the same city. Unbeknownst to the citizens, he has many connections with many demons and knows the invocations to summon the demons by heart. He also knows the recipes for any ritual items necessary.
The green mage starts summoning Plaguewurm eggs in the underground infrastructure of the city. Plaguewurms are green aligned, but also due to their violence and the diseases that soon come from their skin, are black-aligned. They are the favored beast of a certain demon, one which the black mage is subsequently trying to contact. The black mage makes the connection to the demon, who tells him of the Plaguewurm eggs within the underground. Wishing to stay alive in this city, the mage goes to the egg site, but there are too many to destroy by himself. He stumbles upon notes detailing the attack, apparently slipped out of the green mage's satchel.
The black mage now knows of the green mage's impending attack on the city. He knows to summon the patron of Plaguewurms to avert this catastrophe [by destroying the eggs], and knows how to do it: sacrifice the child of the lord of the city. The black mage kills a bunch of guards to get to the child of this governing person. When he gets to the chamber with the lord's child, the mage kidnaps the child, and absconds.
The green mage, finding out from the lord that the child was kidnapped, tracks the child down [possibly with a spell akin to the sense of smell of a bloodhound?] to the sacrificial altar of the black mage. The two confront each other. The protagonist is victorious.
Who is to be rooted for here? Which is good? Which is evil?
It's not for me to say my opinion [as it may influence some other posts] until a few responses are made.
I think that it's easy to see a color as "evil" if those colors' beliefs differ from yours. For example, I've already stated I'm in black's realm of the color wheel. I'm ambitious, cocky, and self-serving. I'm also smart and manipulative. That's the blue side of me. And (as you can probably tell from reading some of these posts), I'm also very emotional - the red.
Therefore, I tend to see white and green as the evil colors. It's not even that I'm trying to force that view. It's simply how I feel. I see religion as a structured hierarchy of greed and corruption. The idea of this community scares me because it stifles individual thought and logic. It's why the earth was considered flat for so long, and why those to challenged this belief were punished for simply questioning it. That, to me, is evil.
Green is all about balance and survival of the fittest. I can't understand this as being good either. The world needs the strong and the weak, sure. But the weak should always be able to overcome the strong with cunning and planning. A perfect example would be that I'm not a fighter. I'm a scrawny guy with a big mouth, however, so I naturally attract a lot of hate. Green's philosophy would dictate that I learn how to defend myself or get beat up. But, I rarely have to fight because I know how to protect myself - either with words or simply the company I keep.
The point is, look at the characteristics that define who you are and see if maybe the ideals that you consider most evil might be on the opposite of the color wheel. I find it cool that my personality and beliefs fit so snugly into U/B/R, and that I find the idea of community and balance disgusting. When I started thinking on the color wheel in depth, I realized the amazing applications it holds for discovering oneself (a trait most definitely rooted in blue and black).
I applaud those of you who challenge the way Wizards treats colors. I think there can be a black or blue "good" guy (not just protagonist), or a green or white "bad" guy. I know that trying to bring new people into the game means they have to go through the stereotypes to set up the basis most people assume to be true (black=evil, white=good, blue=smart, red=fire, green=beef), but I hope they don't abandon the will to expand on normal expectations and challenge thinking as well.
She used Red mana to cast a fire spell, and, in virtue of the operation of combustion, the target's biological make-up, and the physical structure of her universe plane, the target's wound closed over.
I wonder whether or not this feat bothers me. The whole cauterization thing... because Red really shouldn't allow healing... <.<
She also healed a bruise on Llanach's cheek when she cast the spell. What's more, the wound she inflicted on the elf was very specifically mentioned as having GROWN over and scarred.
B Removal of Twilight B
UWhy So Blue?U
GWRZooRWG
WR Battalion RW
BU Tap & Assassinate U[MANA][/MANA]B
But you can't take the sky from me...
B Removal of Twilight B
UWhy So Blue?U
GWRZooRWG
WR Battalion RW
BU Tap & Assassinate U[MANA][/MANA]B
But you can't take the sky from me...
It absolutely can be used to do good, if you're not biased against Black to begin with.
What exactly do you find good about Toshi, viperesque?
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R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
Black is generally more selfish than the other colors, but it isn't necessarily evil.
And often you get what you want when you do good. Like helping the poor head librarian against some thugs and getting in return his thanks and access to a forbidden part of the library that saves you the inconvenience of breaking into the section, fighting the guardian golems, dismantling the magical traps and protecting yourself against the authorities.
This is kinda how I viewed the color black as well. I just wanted to see what others thought.
B Removal of Twilight B
UWhy So Blue?U
GWRZooRWG
WR Battalion RW
BU Tap & Assassinate U[MANA][/MANA]B
But you can't take the sky from me...
1. I'm very ambitious
2. I'm cocky
3. I'll do what I have to do to survive
4. I view the masses as a mindless zombie which I can control
5. When someone falls down, I gain two life...er...I mean I laugh.
Am I evil? Well, I don't believe that any one color is innately evil or good. I think I'm a good person, but I'm also quite capable to dismiss my morals if the need arises for it. However, this is how I would view a fantasy character if he/she were good based on the above attributes:
1. Ambitions: Imagine Mulan, Turk from Scrubs, or Will Smith's character in The Pursuit of Happyness
2. Cockiness: Think any sports movie. There has to be a level of cockiness to be able to perform in front of an audience - be it on the field, on stage, or in front of a congregation.
3. Self-preservation: Most people mistaken this one with evil. The fact is, I am willing to kill someone to survive, but that doesn't mean I'm a murderer. The chance of me needing to defend myself in this manner is slim to none, but it exists nonetheless. When this trait is good is when I'm saving the person next to me as well!
4. Manipulation: Here's where black and blue overlap a bit. Black's part of manipulation comes from the desire to improve oneself. Donating money to get a tax break, volunteering for a bullet statement on your resume, doing extra credit for an A. Are these things bad? Not at all. Not everyone has a desire to remain anonymous. That doesn't mean the deeds are any less valuable!
5. Absorption: I believe the "drain life" mechanic ties into another strong attribute of black. This is the ability to feed off of others' mistakes. This can be portrayed as a good thing on shows like "America's Funniest Home Videos" which brings laughter to many homes...at the expense of others. Another example is the comedian who can make fun of a sensitive issue to help alleviate some of the tension and to encourage conversation.
So why do I think black gets a bad rap? Because people have this twisted notion of "selflessness". Like it's more noble to do things in secret. Well, I'm a good guy! And I'm going to remind you of that constantly. You may not like me, and some may call me evil because of the selfish motivations I possess, but I still do good for many people. The guy who's home I helped rebuild after Katrina won't care that I did for a resume bullet. He's just happy someone volunteered to do it!
Wow, that was longer than I expected. Sorry, and enjoy!
- Friz
Have you been playing Neverwinter Nights 2?
frizbone's is a go-to post. Good stuff.
EDIT: And regarding Toshi, I think
I made my pointmy point is made.Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
I cite Radha's use of red mana to accomplish a healing spell, and could probably find other sources for those examples. For the record, it hurt like hell, but it did technically heal them, but obviously nowhere near as well as had she used the green mana the spell itself was designed for.
So, in essence, not only is magic itself not inherently anything, neither is the mana needed for it.
B Removal of Twilight B
UWhy So Blue?U
GWRZooRWG
WR Battalion RW
BU Tap & Assassinate U[MANA][/MANA]B
But you can't take the sky from me...
But that is not something that the power itself does. It's the character of the man that uses the power that is succeptible to corruption.
Unlike in other systems of magic, such as the Harry Dresden universe (where black magic is addictive and corrupting), magic is just a tool in Dominia. Any power is just a tool.
For example, I had a friend who's grand-father grew up during the great depression. He strove to overcome his hardships and provide for himself and his family. These are very selfish and black-oriented ambitions. He instilled these values in his son (my friend's father) who then strove to provide an even better life for his family. Unfortunately he succeeded. Why is this unfortunate? Because instead of instilling ambition into my friend, he simply gave him everything he wanted. Now my friend is lazy and bored most of the time. Is he a bad person? Not really. But he doesn't have the desire to help those around him as his ancestor's did. It seems his self-centeredness is more rooted in the negative aspects of black's color wheel then his father and grandfather before him.
*shrugs* just my 2 cents.
- Friz
No, not yet, but I plan to in the next three years or so. ^^ As soon as I get a newer computer.
@theme
Ambition is not necessarily a black thing, it can also be every other color (only green could be an exception) So is cockyness.
Black is really just getting what you want. It does not require being evil or doing evil things. You even don't have to be completely scrupelous or merciless. Though it helps most of the time.
Ultimately and unfortunately, someone purely white-aligned may think that a purely black-aligned being [Frizbone? lol]'s actions are wrong, even if they are for the good of the cause that united the two [if applicable], while a blue or red-aligned being in the white's position may deem the actions necessary. All that separates right and wrong are the mindsets of people with opposing opinions.
I have a story. My high school Literature class was reading Night by Elie Wiesel. One of the kids, during a discussion, made some points that all of the other kids, most of whom were Jewish, deemed very VERY wrong. However, if they had put their biases aside they may have seen his points as quite valid. I tried, but I also had to disagree with him [as my own biases were great as well].
Regardless, if people weren't biased, there would be no right and no wrong. Of course, my point is that one cannot bring personal views and biases into a color's ideology, because that is being judgmental, and that is not the best idea. I mean, it's like asking, "Are red mages dumb or can they be smart?" or "Are all green-aligned beings savages/primitive?" It just doesn't work.
~Lil Kalki
Proud Disciple of the Church of the Wary
I have to agree that white's evil is in many cases worse then the other colors. Mostly because white evil can seem more fanatic an cultish. Black often takes the form of simple tyranny. I have to say though I think the manifestation of blue as evil would be simple terrifying.
B Removal of Twilight B
UWhy So Blue?U
GWRZooRWG
WR Battalion RW
BU Tap & Assassinate U[MANA][/MANA]B
But you can't take the sky from me...
She didn't use Red mana to cast a healing spell.
She used Red mana to cast a fire spell, and, in virtue of the operation of combustion, the target's biological make-up, and the physical structure of her
universeplane, the target's wound closed over.I wonder whether or not this feat bothers me. The whole cauterization thing... because Red really shouldn't allow healing... <.<
*~*~*~
I think it's important to stress the "many cases" part of tkdlaxer's post. Yes, that's true. In many cases.
I think it has to do with the gradations of subtlety, and the complexity of moral dilemmae, according to each colour, and then you apply the normal curve of "problem-solving aptitude" to the population of potential villains of that colour.
I mean, White appearing fanatic and cultish, is because White gives the appearance it doesn't think. But in some way, what White is doing is it's saying that all the thinking has already been done. White magic is about giving the world your justice. If you are just, then White will let you exact just things! But the kinds of moral dilemmae faced by White are like this: You are in command of an army. You have information regarding the enemy's communication. You have information that some of your combatants will be attacked with overwhelming force, but to prepare for it would betray the information you have to the enemy, reducing its usefulness.
White has a decision to make here, and it's the kind of decision that's a decision for White, but it could still seem blind to others looking on it.
If one were to tell a story about a White protagonist that faced these kinds of intricacies. . . this choosing between good and greater good on an even higher level than most good vs. greater good scenarios... you'd have to make the protagonist pretty intelligent to start or you wouldn't have a plot; he wouldn't be able to consider or weigh those kinds of things.
My point is, this kind of exception would thus have to be "rare," thus giving truth to your "many cases" statement.
Blue as evil or good is ... something else. Blue is nothing but figuring out how to get what you want. If Blue sets about good, it will apply some consequentialist model and try to work things out for maximum utility. If Blue sets about for evil, it's going to look the same way.
You really can't get a story from Blue out of those things. If Blue wants to, it will be more greedy than Black, to the point you can't make a narrative out of it. There's no reconsideration (what word am I looking for), Blue acts when it is confident in the plan. Even Black can deal with the conflicts of the Human heart and mind... what it means to
Blue's stories are about getting other people to beat the resistances and fears within themselves.
As a villain, Blue is one-dimensional... because Blue is basically every stock villain that isn't Black. You can't go in to his motivations because, "sane" and "rational," they are yet simple, as Blue's philosophy itself.
Evil Blue is not terrifying; you've seen it already. Evil Blue is just stimulating, but that's in virtue of other things about the writing. See Lex Luthor. The nemesis structure of him as an in-Superman-universe-character, is set up with his Blue-Blackness. But its his personality that does the rest.
It's a Blue hero I've yet to see.
Somehow TimeSpiral was just... too plain. :\ I mean... it's not as though Teferi's Blueness won the day there; he was just the only guy paying attention. Of *anyone* who knew about what was going on, who wouldn't be trying to fix it? Okay, Nicol Bolas, maybe, but I didn't see him coming up with a way out.
And I didn't even see evidence of Teferi's blueness throughout! Perhaps those things are related. The direness was just so clear, no real heroism could come out. Teferi's skill at manipulating others did help, though.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
The green mage's act of wiping out complete cities of innocents because he thinks they destroy nature will be seen as evil by nearly everyone, the same as the black mage sacrificing a little child to satisfy his demon will be seen as evil.
Every color's way is capable of letting you do radical things that harm a great part of community, and each time the majority of that community will see these things as evil.
But some color's ways make you do evil things more often than others since some color's are less focused on community and more on individuals. So I think black is capable of the most evil (because it's all about oneself), followed by red (because it's unpredictable), green of the least (because it's all about others) and the other two colors between (because they care for the community but mostly first for community and second for single individuals in it)
You've assumed that the community is more important than the individual.
I don't find that true.
To make these judgments is to take the colors but then use some morality that is objective, or nonetheless external, to the five, and apply it to all of them. But the very nature of the colors is that they are relativist. And exhaustive.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
The trouble with the thinking of the green mage...is that we dont know if non-humanoids have any degree of thought process like ours. are they capable of thinking of what is good or bad? if so, do they bother with that? Because if so, "nearly everyone" would be a gross exaggeration...if they think like us.
What bothers me at this point is that your view of the green mage's attack on these hypothetical cities is in the same boat as the black mage's sacrifice of a child for the sake of a demon.
Say the two stories were intertwined.
The green mage is very well-known within a plane's largest city as a good-natured individual, but is only trying to gain their trust so she is not suspected of a terribly large crime. She has more of a loyalty to the wilds than this city.
The black mage is a virtual unknown but lives middle-class in the same city. Unbeknownst to the citizens, he has many connections with many demons and knows the invocations to summon the demons by heart. He also knows the recipes for any ritual items necessary.
The green mage starts summoning Plaguewurm eggs in the underground infrastructure of the city. Plaguewurms are green aligned, but also due to their violence and the diseases that soon come from their skin, are black-aligned. They are the favored beast of a certain demon, one which the black mage is subsequently trying to contact. The black mage makes the connection to the demon, who tells him of the Plaguewurm eggs within the underground. Wishing to stay alive in this city, the mage goes to the egg site, but there are too many to destroy by himself. He stumbles upon notes detailing the attack, apparently slipped out of the green mage's satchel.
The black mage now knows of the green mage's impending attack on the city. He knows to summon the patron of Plaguewurms to avert this catastrophe [by destroying the eggs], and knows how to do it: sacrifice the child of the lord of the city. The black mage kills a bunch of guards to get to the child of this governing person. When he gets to the chamber with the lord's child, the mage kidnaps the child, and absconds.
The green mage, finding out from the lord that the child was kidnapped, tracks the child down [possibly with a spell akin to the sense of smell of a bloodhound?] to the sacrificial altar of the black mage. The two confront each other. The protagonist is victorious.
Who is to be rooted for here? Which is good? Which is evil?
It's not for me to say my opinion [as it may influence some other posts] until a few responses are made.
~Lil Kalki
Proud Disciple of the Church of the Wary
Therefore, I tend to see white and green as the evil colors. It's not even that I'm trying to force that view. It's simply how I feel. I see religion as a structured hierarchy of greed and corruption. The idea of this community scares me because it stifles individual thought and logic. It's why the earth was considered flat for so long, and why those to challenged this belief were punished for simply questioning it. That, to me, is evil.
Green is all about balance and survival of the fittest. I can't understand this as being good either. The world needs the strong and the weak, sure. But the weak should always be able to overcome the strong with cunning and planning. A perfect example would be that I'm not a fighter. I'm a scrawny guy with a big mouth, however, so I naturally attract a lot of hate. Green's philosophy would dictate that I learn how to defend myself or get beat up. But, I rarely have to fight because I know how to protect myself - either with words or simply the company I keep.
The point is, look at the characteristics that define who you are and see if maybe the ideals that you consider most evil might be on the opposite of the color wheel. I find it cool that my personality and beliefs fit so snugly into U/B/R, and that I find the idea of community and balance disgusting. When I started thinking on the color wheel in depth, I realized the amazing applications it holds for discovering oneself (a trait most definitely rooted in blue and black).
I applaud those of you who challenge the way Wizards treats colors. I think there can be a black or blue "good" guy (not just protagonist), or a green or white "bad" guy. I know that trying to bring new people into the game means they have to go through the stereotypes to set up the basis most people assume to be true (black=evil, white=good, blue=smart, red=fire, green=beef), but I hope they don't abandon the will to expand on normal expectations and challenge thinking as well.
- Friz
She also healed a bruise on Llanach's cheek when she cast the spell. What's more, the wound she inflicted on the elf was very specifically mentioned as having GROWN over and scarred.
It was a healing spell using fire.