It's not an unrealistic number. As you said, who knows? Not everyone knows those cards they/their son/their ex/whoever used to play with are valuable and they get tossed just like everything else. Duals in particular don't really look like something that would be worth any money to someone who had no idea about the game and was just looking at cards out of curiosity, maybe for something flashy to try and unload at a hobby shop ("Throw this one with the other hundred with land pictures on them").
It's not unrealistic. The problem with the number is he pulled it out of his butt. There's no way to verify what's been destroyed, just what's in people's hands. The rest could be destroyed, or it could just be missing.
Just a quick comment...
As it's been said, no one knows for sure how many cards have actually been lost - it is impossible to say. As someone who's been with the game from the beginning I can say that it got popular really quick - the cards had value and were in high demand almost from the start. I would hazard to guess very few cards were totally lost.
... otoh, the cards were played hard w/o sleeves, so early stuff in mint is very rare. Just my $.02 worth.
Take it easy,
Jared
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"You consider me the young apprentice,
Caught between the Scylla and Charibdes,
Hypnotized by you if I should linger,
Staring at the ring around your finger" - Sting
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.
It doesn't particularly matter how many cards have been destroyed until it affects the market supply. The supply isn't how many exist; it's how many are for sale. On a US national scale, the supply of duals remains relatively constant judging from eBay and online store stock.
Being the apathetic, time-consumed, generally lazy college student I am, I frequent change.org to "make a difference, man." Also, I like keep up with what's going on in the world.
Anyways, I got bored and typed in "Reserved List" and lo and behold there was a petition about it. These things actually do gain traction when they reach an arbitrarily large number of signatures, so perhaps if we all sign this (well, those community members who agree) and spread it to people we know it will create a snowballing of signatures. It only takes 30 seconds to sign this.
Please don't turn this into another Reserved List rant thread, there's already too many of those of this site. This thread is meant to alert members to a new petition in case they want to sign it, that's all.
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Currently playing:
Standard: N/A
Modern: AffinityWR, Delver WUR
Legacy: High TideU, ZombiesWBRG, 12post UG, Delver UR
These things actually do gain traction when they reach an arbitrarily large number of signatures
I'd submit that this is only the case when the subject of the petition has broad, cross-cultural appeal and resonates with people on a human level. Stuff like gun violence and states seceding from the union. Magic is just a game, so I don't think this petition will garner any sort of critical attention.
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
I support this, and urge people who use other sites to cross-post this. I would really like to see WoTC reaction to a petition with thousands of signatures. Even if they just issue a response denying the idea, at least we might get some people thinking. I think the most important thing someone could say in the reason for signing section is "I would buy at least x dollars worth of reprint product." or something like that. If we found 10,000 sigs, and everyone told WOTC they would spend 100.00 on reprint product over time (for example) then they might take a long look at their policy, since even for a big company, a million dollars matters.
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Decks:
Modern: Jund
Legacy: Pox
EDH: Chainer Reanimation and The Dragon Show, with Zirilan of the Claw
I'd submit that this is only the case when the subject of the petition has broad, cross-cultural appeal and resonates with people on a human level. Stuff like gun violence and states seceding from the union. Magic is just a game, so I don't think this petition will garner any sort of critical attention.
What exactly have online petitions done to curb gun violence or allow states to succeed from the union?
Online petitions are just slacktivism designed to make people feel like they are making a difference without having to work at it. Don't be under any illusion that online petitions are effective in creating change.
I highly, highly doubt that Wizards is completely oblivious to players opinions on the Reserve List and will glean any new information based on an online petition.
I would really like to see WoTC reaction to a petition with thousands of signatures
They already gave their response to the Reserve List. "Wizards of the Coast continues to uphold the promise it made when it created the Reserve List."
Wizards will not remove the reserved list. This has been stated time and time again. It does not matter how many players pledge their signatures if even a minority does not agree. Judging by how Maro talks, something is legally binding them from revising or even discussing the reserved list. Something has them by the balls. Until their let go, they will never repeal the Reserve List.
Wizards will not remove the reserved list. This has been stated time and time again. It does not matter how many players pledge their signatures if even a minority does not agree. Judging by how Maro talks, something is legally binding them from revising or even discussing the reserved list. Something has them by the balls. Until their let go, they will never repeal the Reserve List.
I'm not a lawyer, but I have a fair understanding of law, and, unless there were some really strange NDAs signed during the formation of the list, there should be nothing preventing WOTC from discussing it all day long should they so choose. Now, getting rid of list, yeah, more of a gray area.
But hey, why not try? It takes 2 minutes.
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Decks:
Modern: Jund
Legacy: Pox
EDH: Chainer Reanimation and The Dragon Show, with Zirilan of the Claw
You're probably right, but something is keeping them from discussing it. Higher ups at Hasbro or its shareholders maybe? We don't know. We do know that they won't say anything about it, and are hoping we'll just accept it.
I'm just saying we can try, try, try, but it won't do any good. I'll probably sign the petition too, but I don't expect anything to come of it.
You're probably right, but something is keeping them from discussing it. Higher ups at Hasbro or its shareholders maybe? We don't know. We do know that they won't say anything about it, and are hoping we'll just accept it.
How does removing the reserve list increase the number of standard and limited players at the rate it is growing now?
Stop thinking about the reserve list for a moment. Do you know why standard was created in the first place, rather than reprinting cards from ABU?
The popularity of Cube proves that it's possible to make limited-viable sets with cards of Legacy-grade power, and Modern Masters proves that WotC is willing to print entire sets of cards that won't be legal for Standard play.
Standard and Limited are entirely irrelevant to discussion of whether or not the Reserved List should be voided in the long-term interests of Legacy, Vintage, EDH, and other formats with eternal card pools.
How does removing the reserve list increase the number of standard and limited players at the rate it is growing now?
Stop thinking about the reserve list for a moment. Do you know why standard was created in the first place, rather than reprinting cards from ABU?
To get people to buy packs. WotC is a business and I understand your reasoning but it's not likely everyone will suddenly want to play only legacy. Not everyone likes it. Not to mention people play multiple formats already and people will always still buy new product. There would still be a ton of people playing limited. The only negative side effect i can see from letting go of the reserve list, legal reasons aside, is hindering the number of people interested in modern and maybe lowering their over all sales revenue by a negligible percent.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
You're probably right, but something is keeping them from discussing it. Higher ups at Hasbro or its shareholders maybe? We don't know. We do know that they won't say anything about it, and are hoping we'll just accept it.
I'm just saying we can try, try, try, but it won't do any good. I'll probably sign the petition too, but I don't expect anything to come of it.
Hasbro should have no obligation to the RL as WOTC created it long before they were bought out and Hasbro came along. Thi.s is WOTC and WOTC alone. Hasbro SHOULD be able to abolish it if it wants to unless it is in the contract in some sense, which it could very well be.
Let me assure all of you card-hoarding, palm-rubbing Magic "collectors", that this petition will be the death warrant of your rectangular investments, and each signature added puts The Reserve List further up on the liquidation parade.
Gone will be the sorrows of college students forced to choose between a slightly played Taiga and pizza money, not unlike forcing a parent to choose which of their children lives. The sky will brighten, the stars will further shimmer when the combined force of electronic voting and good-hearted "players" forces Wizards to drop their monocles, peer out from their ivory towers and see that we, the people who sometimes buy the collectible cards the print will no longer stand for their antiquated, bemusing obsession with corporate forebearance and loyalty.
This petition is exactly what America and some other countries too, I guess, needed. A sternly worded document that lays out the deepest-held feelings about Magic: The Gathering. The players have chosen to forge destiny with their own hands, taking it from the charts, graphs and market research that a multibillion dollar company relies on, inexplicably I might add, to produce a card game easily the equal of Pokemon or Ani-Mayhem.
When this petition is accepted and all legal ramifications are met with cries of "Damn the collectors and full speed ahead!", Each Magic player terrified that people might find out just how much he spends on cards will be able to sleep soundly in his bed, knowing that prices will plummet overnight and the streets will be blanketed snowlike with Moxes, Lotuses, Libraries and Tuknir Deathlocks when he wakes in the morning.
Of course I can't sign the petition myself because I own a heavily played Revised Badlands with an autograph I'm pretty sure is by the artist, so I have to protect my nest egg. You all understand, naturally.
I know of at least two other petitions for removing the reserve list over the past few years. None of them accomplished anything. I do wish that the list would be repealed or at least relaxed but I believe that it is against WOTC's best interests to do so. It just has to be accepted that it's not happening under the current regime. I'll even sign the petition, but this act is purely symbolic. There is no chance of it changing anything.
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The Collection:
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
Can they technically "sell" magic to another company who gets rid of the reseved list and then sells it right back to hasbro?
WOTC was already purchased by Hasbro after the reserved list was created. Theres nothing legally binding about it.
WOTC just stays quiet because they know if they even hinted that getting rid of it was possible they'd be put under a lot more pressure to do something.
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Just a quick comment...
As it's been said, no one knows for sure how many cards have actually been lost - it is impossible to say. As someone who's been with the game from the beginning I can say that it got popular really quick - the cards had value and were in high demand almost from the start. I would hazard to guess very few cards were totally lost.
... otoh, the cards were played hard w/o sleeves, so early stuff in mint is very rare. Just my $.02 worth.
Take it easy,
Jared
Caught between the Scylla and Charibdes,
Hypnotized by you if I should linger,
Staring at the ring around your finger" - Sting
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.
Anyways, I got bored and typed in "Reserved List" and lo and behold there was a petition about it. These things actually do gain traction when they reach an arbitrarily large number of signatures, so perhaps if we all sign this (well, those community members who agree) and spread it to people we know it will create a snowballing of signatures. It only takes 30 seconds to sign this.
http://www.change.org/petitions/wizards-of-the-coast-remove-the-reserve-list#share
Please don't turn this into another Reserved List rant thread, there's already too many of those of this site. This thread is meant to alert members to a new petition in case they want to sign it, that's all.
Standard: N/A
Modern: AffinityWR, Delver WUR
Legacy: High TideU, ZombiesWBRG, 12post UG, Delver UR
I'd submit that this is only the case when the subject of the petition has broad, cross-cultural appeal and resonates with people on a human level. Stuff like gun violence and states seceding from the union. Magic is just a game, so I don't think this petition will garner any sort of critical attention.
Fixed that for you.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Modern: Jund
Legacy: Pox
EDH: Chainer Reanimation and The Dragon Show, with Zirilan of the Claw
What exactly have online petitions done to curb gun violence or allow states to succeed from the union?
Online petitions are just slacktivism designed to make people feel like they are making a difference without having to work at it. Don't be under any illusion that online petitions are effective in creating change.
I highly, highly doubt that Wizards is completely oblivious to players opinions on the Reserve List and will glean any new information based on an online petition.
They already gave their response to the Reserve List. "Wizards of the Coast continues to uphold the promise it made when it created the Reserve List."
No. You didn't.
How does removing the reserve list increase the number of standard and limited players at the rate it is growing now?
Stop thinking about the reserve list for a moment. Do you know why standard was created in the first place, rather than reprinting cards from ABU?
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Yes, another list of decks sig.
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
WBR Zurgo Helmsmasher Equipment
BBB Erebos, God of the Dead Goodstuff
UBG The Mimeoplasm
URG All Creatures Animar, Soul of Elements
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion sac and combo
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius
WUG Rafiq of the Many Aggro-Control
UBR Nekusar, The Mindrazer
WRG Mayael, the Anima
Casual:
BB Ad Nauseam Combo
BB Burn
I'm not a lawyer, but I have a fair understanding of law, and, unless there were some really strange NDAs signed during the formation of the list, there should be nothing preventing WOTC from discussing it all day long should they so choose. Now, getting rid of list, yeah, more of a gray area.
But hey, why not try? It takes 2 minutes.
Modern: Jund
Legacy: Pox
EDH: Chainer Reanimation and The Dragon Show, with Zirilan of the Claw
I'm just saying we can try, try, try, but it won't do any good. I'll probably sign the petition too, but I don't expect anything to come of it.
Yes, another list of decks sig.
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
WBR Zurgo Helmsmasher Equipment
BBB Erebos, God of the Dead Goodstuff
UBG The Mimeoplasm
URG All Creatures Animar, Soul of Elements
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion sac and combo
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius
WUG Rafiq of the Many Aggro-Control
UBR Nekusar, The Mindrazer
WRG Mayael, the Anima
Casual:
BB Ad Nauseam Combo
BB Burn
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=302108 is the official reserve list discussion thread. It covers a multitude of theories and hypothesis about the RL.
Thank you. Not a debate guys, just a PSA.
Standard: N/A
Modern: AffinityWR, Delver WUR
Legacy: High TideU, ZombiesWBRG, 12post UG, Delver UR
The popularity of Cube proves that it's possible to make limited-viable sets with cards of Legacy-grade power, and Modern Masters proves that WotC is willing to print entire sets of cards that won't be legal for Standard play.
Standard and Limited are entirely irrelevant to discussion of whether or not the Reserved List should be voided in the long-term interests of Legacy, Vintage, EDH, and other formats with eternal card pools.
Yes, another list of decks sig.
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
WBR Zurgo Helmsmasher Equipment
BBB Erebos, God of the Dead Goodstuff
UBG The Mimeoplasm
URG All Creatures Animar, Soul of Elements
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion sac and combo
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius
WUG Rafiq of the Many Aggro-Control
UBR Nekusar, The Mindrazer
WRG Mayael, the Anima
Casual:
BB Ad Nauseam Combo
BB Burn
To get people to buy packs. WotC is a business and I understand your reasoning but it's not likely everyone will suddenly want to play only legacy. Not everyone likes it. Not to mention people play multiple formats already and people will always still buy new product. There would still be a ton of people playing limited. The only negative side effect i can see from letting go of the reserve list, legal reasons aside, is hindering the number of people interested in modern and maybe lowering their over all sales revenue by a negligible percent.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
My YouTube Channel
Hasbro should have no obligation to the RL as WOTC created it long before they were bought out and Hasbro came along. Thi.s is WOTC and WOTC alone. Hasbro SHOULD be able to abolish it if it wants to unless it is in the contract in some sense, which it could very well be.
BUG Reanimator
BWG Nic-Fit
BGR Punishing Nic-Fit
especially ones like this.
i'm 100% sure there have been multiple petitions against the reserved list, and each one of them failed.
Gone will be the sorrows of college students forced to choose between a slightly played Taiga and pizza money, not unlike forcing a parent to choose which of their children lives. The sky will brighten, the stars will further shimmer when the combined force of electronic voting and good-hearted "players" forces Wizards to drop their monocles, peer out from their ivory towers and see that we, the people who sometimes buy the collectible cards the print will no longer stand for their antiquated, bemusing obsession with corporate forebearance and loyalty.
This petition is exactly what America and some other countries too, I guess, needed. A sternly worded document that lays out the deepest-held feelings about Magic: The Gathering. The players have chosen to forge destiny with their own hands, taking it from the charts, graphs and market research that a multibillion dollar company relies on, inexplicably I might add, to produce a card game easily the equal of Pokemon or Ani-Mayhem.
When this petition is accepted and all legal ramifications are met with cries of "Damn the collectors and full speed ahead!", Each Magic player terrified that people might find out just how much he spends on cards will be able to sleep soundly in his bed, knowing that prices will plummet overnight and the streets will be blanketed snowlike with Moxes, Lotuses, Libraries and Tuknir Deathlocks when he wakes in the morning.
Of course I can't sign the petition myself because I own a heavily played Revised Badlands with an autograph I'm pretty sure is by the artist, so I have to protect my nest egg. You all understand, naturally.
It's not always about winning or losing. Sometimes the goal is to make as much noise as possible.
Standard: N/A
Modern: AffinityWR, Delver WUR
Legacy: High TideU, ZombiesWBRG, 12post UG, Delver UR
Every English card ever printed: 99.02%
Arabian Nights through Lorwyn: Complete
Alpha: 94.2% Beta: 95.0%
Unlimited through M10: Complete
WOTC was already purchased by Hasbro after the reserved list was created. Theres nothing legally binding about it.
WOTC just stays quiet because they know if they even hinted that getting rid of it was possible they'd be put under a lot more pressure to do something.