mst3k, for one, seems like he finds snatching excusable. If that's not what he meant, then I'm misunderstanding people.
Ok, let's back up a second, what are you considering "snatching" exactly? What exact circumstances?
Are you saying it is inexcusable that if you and I are playing, if you shuffle up your deck and then present it to me for a cut or whatever, that I just pick up your deck and shuffle it before returning it to you without asking for your permission first?
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Ok, let's back up a second, what are you considering "snatching" exactly? What exact circumstances?
Are you saying it is inexcusable that if you and I are playing, if you shuffle up your deck and then present it to me for a cut or whatever, that I just pick up your deck and shuffle it before returning it to you without asking for your permission first?
I think the way he means is that he shuffles his deck, and his opponent immediately snatches it before he even presents it and says "Cut?". I've had opponents do that, and it can be very irritating. Especially if you get someone with poor manners/hygiene; this once happened to me at a tournament, and my opponent had been cramming Cheetos into his mouth while we shuffled. He reached over and grabbed my deck with his very very dirty hands, and rifle shuffled it mercilessly. He then (I kid you not) called a judge over to report I had marked cards, pointing out a few cards that had been bent enough to notice. Some people take this game waaaaay too seriously.
mst3k, for one, seems like he finds snatching excusable. If that's not what he meant, then I'm misunderstanding people.
I was not clear: I do not find "snatching" excusable. In fact, as long as I am at an appropriate event, I don't shuffle my opponent's deck, I just cut it. And I don't even do that in casual games. I was simply pointing out that the opponent does have a right to shuffle the deck. I am a Tournament Organizer, I try to focus on the rules.
This is what people mean when they think rifle (RIFLE, for the love of god, not Riffle. That's not a word D:) shuffling destroys cards. If you bend them and do a rifle shuffle like you do with playing cards, then it'll harm your cards like crazy. I just rifle shuffle the corners, but with sleeves I prefer to do the mash-crush thing. It works well enough with sleeves and doesn't bend the cards! Yay.
I saw a guy use a shuffling machine once, and he forgot to test it with sleeves. Dear god, it tore them to shreds. Good thing it was a crappy casual deck.
That's one of the funnier things I've read all day. Thank you.
I used to exclusively pile shuffle with a few random shuffles afterwards. All I do now is one pile shuffle with a bunch of riffles and slide them together sealed side first. It's just so easy and spreads out everything nicely.
I riffle shuffle because I can do it softly enough to avoid bending the cards but not destroy the edges with mashing. I normally don't have sleeves, so the riffle is better for me.
But my opponent's deck? I ensure randomization by cutting, or maybe cutting in three parts. If you've stacked your deck, then I've just put your win con in the bottom third of your deck... sucks to be you. While i may have my best card on the bottom, and your cutting just put it on top! (I don't know, so I'm not sad when you've cut my best card to the bottom).
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
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I'm one of the few people I consider to shuffle sufficiently. 3 riffles, followed by a form of cutting, followed by 4 riffles, followed by a form of cutting before I present the deck to my opponent. If someone riffles twice, they're cheating whether they know it or not.
And lol at Hoodoo, that's hilarious. At first I thought I was going to get to read, "he called the judge over and claimed the cards were marked with an orange sharpie" before I got to the "bent" word. I pictured my garbage man shuffling your cards, good stuff, very vivid!
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
I've been playing Jund since Zendikar dropped and have not had any problems shuffling, but as of about 2 weeks ago I haven't won a single match due to me topdecking 4 Rootbound Crags and/or just losing to general clumping.
I table shuffle and riffle, hand over hand and riffle some more, nothing seems to work, it's like I'm cursed! It's not all bad (like 3 blightnings) but it's really ruining the deck for me, what could be happening?
1) check your mana composition of the deck.
2) riffle shuffle more
There is no other shuffling that is more satisfactory. If you manage to find a shuffling method that does not form clumps or produces a very smooth mana progression, its cheating. Proper shuffling does not eliminate clumps. That's the nature of randomization.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
I solved this problem in my Jund deck by running less than 4 Rootbound Crags.
Seriously though, randomizing will not prevent clumps from happening. Anything that actually prevented them reliably would not be random at all. Since it sound like you're shuffling enough to more or less randomize your deck, you've probably just had a run of bad luck.
It's EVERY shuffle though, 3 Thrinax's in a row, 3 Bit Blasts hugging each other..I'm thinking this might be a sleeve issue....hmm
what I would suggest, is first things first, replace your sleeves as it is possible that the sleeves are sticking together.
If that does not seem to help, then my advice is to do this:
First try to separate all of the cards of a given name in your deck from one another so that they are not in the same pile (when you are pile shuffling). However you will want to do this long before you ever get to an actual MTG tournament. Then, once you are at the tournament make sure to rifle, or mash shuffle extremely thoroughly. Do not pile shuffle at this point unless it is just to count the number of cards in your deck. However do make sure your deck is completely randomized. This may take approximately 8 or 9 riffles or mashes for the first game, and after that 5 or 6 rifles or mashes from there on in.
This will not necessarily eliminate clumps, but it should help to randomize your deck sufficiently.
Please note that I am not suggesting you mana weave at all. That is indeed considered cheating. Even what I am suggesting could be considered cheating if you do it without any additional forms of randomization taking place. Fortunately the rules are quite clear that you are allowed to do whatever you want with your deck so long as you completely randomize before the game starts.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
I would honestly suggest Mana shuffling your deck. Seperate your land and your spells into 2 stacks. Shuffle both stacks thoroughly. Then according to your spell:land ratio place them into a pile. For example if I have 20 lands and 40 spells. I would place 2 spells into a pile, then 1 land, then 2 spells, then 1 land, and repeat the process.
I would honestly suggest Mana shuffling your deck. Seperate your land and your spells into 2 stacks. Shuffle both stacks thoroughly. Then according to your spell:land ratio place them into a pile. For example if I have 20 lands and 40 spells. I would place 2 spells into a pile, then 1 land, then 2 spells, then 1 land, and repeat the process.
are these posts infractionable yet
edit for content: yeah don't 'mana shuffle'/manaweave, riffle lots, although it's not like if you shuffle more you'll get better draws.
What I do when I shuffle (at least at the start of a game) is to table shuffle my deck into 8 piles. (6 piles if it's limited, but any number of piles that isn't evenly divisible into the number of cards in your deck) This also will let you know if cards are sticking together, as your counting won't come out right. After that I riffle a few times and that's usually good.
If you do all that and you still have issues, then try replacing the sleeves. If you replaced the sleeves and this still happens, maybe the deck is trying to tell you something...
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I would honestly suggest Mana shuffling your deck. Seperate your land and your spells into 2 stacks. Shuffle both stacks thoroughly. Then according to your spell:land ratio place them into a pile. For example if I have 20 lands and 40 spells. I would place 2 spells into a pile, then 1 land, then 2 spells, then 1 land, and repeat the process.
This is completely pointless. If you actually saw a benefit from it, it would be cheating. (which it is, unless you riffle like crazy afterwards, which makes it completely pointless)
If you're seeing clumps, pile shuffle first (to ensure you have the correct number of cards maindeck), then do riffles like crazy. Don't forget to do a few cuts every once in a while to break it up.
If you really want to get better at shuffling, a little tip I used was intentionally shuffling once or twice more than my opponent. Of course, if your opponent is doing this to you, you could have an issue - but I've found it lead me to shuffle my deck a lot more consistently and thoroughly.
One of the things I do that seems to work out well is to "mana weave" the cards that you've played in a game, and then shuffle that into the deck. This way, I don't put a stack of lands in any one place in my deck when I start shuffling.
(Disclaimer: I make sure my deck is sufficiently randomized before I present, and I only mana-weave the cards I've actually played.)
This is CHEATING, manaweaving is not something to do. even if you randomize suffisently after, you can be DQ from a sanctionned tournament if you do that.
Quote from IPG 4.4 »
Any manipulation, weaving, or stacking prior to randomization is acceptable, as long as the deck is thoroughly randomized afterwards. Doing so and not sufficiently randomizing afterwards is defined as Cheating — Manipulation of Game Materials.
Although if you don't shuffle well afterwards, you can still be liable for Insufficient Randomization (Warning at Regular, Game Loss at Higher RELs)
If I watch someone mana weave their deck, I expect the better part of a minute of continuous riffle / side / mash shuffling, and I may still investigate for IR.
This is CHEATING, manaweaving is not something to do. even if you randomize suffisently after, you can be DQ from a sanctionned tournament if you do that.
No you can't. The whole point of sufficient randomization is that it neutralizes the effect of things like deck stacking or mana weaving. If a deck is sufficiently randomized, then you have no way of knowing the location or order of any cards in your library, even in the most general sense. You can do whatever you want at the start of your shuffle process--pile shuffle, mana weave, even sort your entire deck (assuming you can do it in like two minutes)--so long as, after you do that, you apply enough random shuffle methods afterward (riffle, mash, etc) you don't have any notion of the order of your deck.
What I do when I shuffle (at least at the start of a game) is to table shuffle my deck into 8 piles. (6 piles if it's limited, but any number of piles that isn't evenly divisible into the number of cards in your deck) This also will let you know if cards are sticking together, as your counting won't come out right. After that I riffle a few times and that's usually good.
I usually do 7 piles for both my constructed and limited decks; since 7 is a prime number, it randomizes the deck even further.
I usually just continue to shuffle until I feel fit..most times a pile shuffle then a few mashes suffices for me. Also, you should always at least mash shuffle your opponents deck at least 2 or 3 times.. I do that just so I make sure it is. Generally though, if you have a good mana curve you shouldn't have problems casting spells and getting the cards you need.
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I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
Ok, let's back up a second, what are you considering "snatching" exactly? What exact circumstances?
Are you saying it is inexcusable that if you and I are playing, if you shuffle up your deck and then present it to me for a cut or whatever, that I just pick up your deck and shuffle it before returning it to you without asking for your permission first?
BRG Jund Midrange GRB //// B Vampire Aggro B //// WRU Patriot Control URW
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I think the way he means is that he shuffles his deck, and his opponent immediately snatches it before he even presents it and says "Cut?". I've had opponents do that, and it can be very irritating. Especially if you get someone with poor manners/hygiene; this once happened to me at a tournament, and my opponent had been cramming Cheetos into his mouth while we shuffled. He reached over and grabbed my deck with his very very dirty hands, and rifle shuffled it mercilessly. He then (I kid you not) called a judge over to report I had marked cards, pointing out a few cards that had been bent enough to notice. Some people take this game waaaaay too seriously.
The latest Comprehensive Rules are also good, and can be found here.
I was not clear: I do not find "snatching" excusable. In fact, as long as I am at an appropriate event, I don't shuffle my opponent's deck, I just cut it. And I don't even do that in casual games. I was simply pointing out that the opponent does have a right to shuffle the deck. I am a Tournament Organizer, I try to focus on the rules.
That's one of the funnier things I've read all day. Thank you.
I used to exclusively pile shuffle with a few random shuffles afterwards. All I do now is one pile shuffle with a bunch of riffles and slide them together sealed side first. It's just so easy and spreads out everything nicely.
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But my opponent's deck? I ensure randomization by cutting, or maybe cutting in three parts. If you've stacked your deck, then I've just put your win con in the bottom third of your deck... sucks to be you. While i may have my best card on the bottom, and your cutting just put it on top! (I don't know, so I'm not sad when you've cut my best card to the bottom).
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And lol at Hoodoo, that's hilarious. At first I thought I was going to get to read, "he called the judge over and claimed the cards were marked with an orange sharpie" before I got to the "bent" word. I pictured my garbage man shuffling your cards, good stuff, very vivid!
From around here? Cheap booster boxes!
BANNED for posting, "mind your own business please" to a mod.
AlmostGrown, as I watch your Goyf pop up, it fills me with exitement.
I always riffle my cards, unsleeved or not.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
I table shuffle and riffle, hand over hand and riffle some more, nothing seems to work, it's like I'm cursed! It's not all bad (like 3 blightnings) but it's really ruining the deck for me, what could be happening?
2) riffle shuffle more
There is no other shuffling that is more satisfactory. If you manage to find a shuffling method that does not form clumps or produces a very smooth mana progression, its cheating. Proper shuffling does not eliminate clumps. That's the nature of randomization.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Seriously though, randomizing will not prevent clumps from happening. Anything that actually prevented them reliably would not be random at all. Since it sound like you're shuffling enough to more or less randomize your deck, you've probably just had a run of bad luck.
what I would suggest, is first things first, replace your sleeves as it is possible that the sleeves are sticking together.
If that does not seem to help, then my advice is to do this:
First try to separate all of the cards of a given name in your deck from one another so that they are not in the same pile (when you are pile shuffling). However you will want to do this long before you ever get to an actual MTG tournament. Then, once you are at the tournament make sure to rifle, or mash shuffle extremely thoroughly. Do not pile shuffle at this point unless it is just to count the number of cards in your deck. However do make sure your deck is completely randomized. This may take approximately 8 or 9 riffles or mashes for the first game, and after that 5 or 6 rifles or mashes from there on in.
This will not necessarily eliminate clumps, but it should help to randomize your deck sufficiently.
Please note that I am not suggesting you mana weave at all. That is indeed considered cheating. Even what I am suggesting could be considered cheating if you do it without any additional forms of randomization taking place. Fortunately the rules are quite clear that you are allowed to do whatever you want with your deck so long as you completely randomize before the game starts.
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[rect=251,67,347,90]http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=211881[/rect]
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Spiderboy4DarkNightCavalier and XenoNinja at Heroes of the Plane Studios for the AMAZING sig pic and avvy.are these posts infractionable yet
edit for content: yeah don't 'mana shuffle'/manaweave, riffle lots, although it's not like if you shuffle more you'll get better draws.
If you do all that and you still have issues, then try replacing the sleeves. If you replaced the sleeves and this still happens, maybe the deck is trying to tell you something...
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RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
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This is completely pointless. If you actually saw a benefit from it, it would be cheating. (which it is, unless you riffle like crazy afterwards, which makes it completely pointless)
If you're seeing clumps, pile shuffle first (to ensure you have the correct number of cards maindeck), then do riffles like crazy. Don't forget to do a few cuts every once in a while to break it up.
If you really want to get better at shuffling, a little tip I used was intentionally shuffling once or twice more than my opponent. Of course, if your opponent is doing this to you, you could have an issue - but I've found it lead me to shuffle my deck a lot more consistently and thoroughly.
(Disclaimer: I make sure my deck is sufficiently randomized before I present, and I only mana-weave the cards I've actually played.)
Although if you don't shuffle well afterwards, you can still be liable for Insufficient Randomization (Warning at Regular, Game Loss at Higher RELs)
If I watch someone mana weave their deck, I expect the better part of a minute of continuous riffle / side / mash shuffling, and I may still investigate for IR.
No you can't. The whole point of sufficient randomization is that it neutralizes the effect of things like deck stacking or mana weaving. If a deck is sufficiently randomized, then you have no way of knowing the location or order of any cards in your library, even in the most general sense. You can do whatever you want at the start of your shuffle process--pile shuffle, mana weave, even sort your entire deck (assuming you can do it in like two minutes)--so long as, after you do that, you apply enough random shuffle methods afterward (riffle, mash, etc) you don't have any notion of the order of your deck.
I usually do 7 piles for both my constructed and limited decks; since 7 is a prime number, it randomizes the deck even further.
Clumping happens in a sufficiently randomized deck. Deal with it.
No it doesn't. It's a pile shuffle, ergo it's not random to any degree.
I have written a proxy generator. If you have a deck you want to try out, you could do much worse that use this... mtg.edd-miles.com
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